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Rules question - OCS or do turns?


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So I've seen a few races recently where the SI's specify an automatic 15 or 20 min penalty for being OCS after the prep signal, and do not permit vessels to restart.

So what I'm asking myself, is if you're in sequence and a leeward boat is about to take you up and over the line... wouldn't it make more sense to just refuse to come up? Then immediately after starting, take two turns to clear your Rule 11 violation.

No way that two turns takes > 15 minutes. And if the leeward boat deliberately forces contact, that's a rule 14 violation on both of you.  

Thoughts?

 

 

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Sounds like a Baaad SI for several reasons, not least of which is it makes the start line more dangerous because of the exact tactic you are talking about. I can def see contact happening more often. 

Wtf kind of problem did they think they where solving ffs?

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There is this one little problem that you admit to above...

 

44.1 Taking a Penalty A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Alternatively, sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty, in which case the specified penalty shall replace the One-Turn and the Two-Turns Penalty. However, (a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31; (b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

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49 minutes ago, Baldur said:

Sounds like a Baaad SI for several reasons, not least of which is it makes the start line more dangerous because of the exact tactic you are talking about. I can def see contact happening more often. 

Wtf kind of problem did they think they where solving ffs?

It's a pursuit race, with 80+ starters. Maybe they think this will keep the starting area clear for boats that are in sequence?  

 

Separately, this last Annapolis to Newport race had a 60+ boat single start, and also imposed a 20 min OCS penalty. IIRC, though, they required taking a 30% scoring penalty for fouls, not turns, so the "no I won't come up" tactic wouldn't be worth it.

 

 

 

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If a boat’s start is late in the sequence then they would be wise to cross at the Preparatory Signal and take the penalty. No?

Seems like a poorly considered SI. 

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25 minutes ago, Reference said:

It's a pursuit race, with 80+ starters. Maybe they think this will keep the starting area clear for boats that are in sequence? 

Yes, this makes sense now.  They need to keep the starting area clear so they don't want you restarting, and don't even want you doing turns on the course side.  Can you imagine the mess it would be in light winds?   But there would be very few boats crossing the starting line at any one time, so the chance of being headed up are very slim and easy to avoid.  Just don't pinch the line - simple.

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26 minutes ago, Reference said:

It's a pursuit race, with 80+ starters. Maybe they think this will keep the starting area clear for boats that are in sequence?  

 

Separately, this last Annapolis to Newport race had a 60+ boat single start, and also imposed a 20 min OCS penalty. IIRC, though, they required taking a 30% scoring penalty for fouls, not turns, so the "no I won't come up" tactic wouldn't be worth it.

 

 

 

This - any time I have seen a time penalty for OCS it is paired with 44.3 so you have a 20% penalty and can't do turns for exoneration.

 

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2 hours ago, Reference said:

So I've seen a few races recently where the SI's specify an automatic 15 or 20 min penalty for being OCS after the prep signal, and do not permit vessels to restart.

So what I'm asking myself, is if you're in sequence and a leeward boat is about to take you up and over the line... wouldn't it make more sense to just refuse to come up? Then immediately after starting, take two turns to clear your Rule 11 violation.

No way that two turns takes > 15 minutes. And if the leeward boat deliberately forces contact, that's a rule 14 violation on both of you.  

Thoughts?

 

 

Does not align well with the definition of starting:

"Start A boat starts when, her hull having been entirely on the pre-start side of the starting line at or after her starting signal, and having complied with rule 30.1 if it applies, any part of her hull crosses the starting line from the pre-start side to the course side."

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Here's the relevant language from the SIs:

9.2. This shall be a pursuit race with a reverse PHRF Time over Distance (ToD) starting order. The boat with the slowest rating (highest PHRF number) shall start first and the fastest rating (lowest PHRF number) shall start last.

9.4. A boat's individual preparatory signal is four (4) minutes prior to her individual scheduled start. After the first boat has started, there will be no visual signal or sound for any subsequent preparatory signal. This changes RRS 26.

10.1. If any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and she is identified, she shall be considered On Course Side (OCS). She shall not attempt to clear herself, start, or restart, and shall, instead, sail to the first mark. The race committee will attempt to broadcast her sail number on VHF channel 73. Flag X will not be used. This changes RRS 29.1. 

10.2. [DP] [NP] A boat that is scored OCS shall, without a hearing, be penalized by having 15-minutes. In RRS 28, the word "start" is replaced with "start or take a penalty in accordance with SI 14.2". This changes RRS 28, 63.1, A4, and A5.

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So if we go back to the original post, the only time there should be a boat calling you up at the start is if they have the same rating or one of you is badly late.

Rule 2 would still be in play for a deliberate foul.

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Similar argument for some with black flag start, no?  Don't go up, don't get the automatic DSQ, hope competitor doesn't pull the flag, if so, exonerate or pray for a decision in the protest room that goes your way.  Seems a deliberate foul if being honest for making up a story in the room.  

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2 hours ago, Borracho said:

If a boat’s start is late in the sequence then they would be wise to cross at the Preparatory Signal and take the penalty. No?

Seems like a poorly considered SI. 

:lol:

Yep.... penalty for OCS is 30 minutes, oops, I can start 53 minutes early then, right?

But in answer to the OP, no. There's a rule against deliberately breaking a rule to gain an advantage greater than the penalty. Huh, who knew these rule-writers woulda thought of that!!

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Borracho said:

If a boat’s start is late in the sequence then they would be wise to cross at the Preparatory Signal and take the penalty. No?

Seems like a poorly considered SI. 

20 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

:lol:

Yep.... penalty for OCS is 30 minutes, oops, I can start 53 minutes early then, right?

But in answer to the OP, no. There's a rule against deliberately breaking a rule to gain an advantage greater than the penalty. Huh, who knew these rule-writers woulda thought of that!!

FB- Doug

Not sure, if you don't cross the start line sometime after your prep signal (i.e. while racing) doesn't the RC just score you DNS? The SI state that each boats prep is 4 minutes before their start. So a boat crossing 53 minutes early would not be racing at that time.

(oh and yes the other stuff still applies :0)

 

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Just now, JohnMB said:

Not sure, if you don't cross the start line sometime after your prep signal (i.e. while racing) doesn't the RC just score you DNS? The SI state that each boats prep is 4 minutes before their start. So a boat crossing 53 minutes early would not be racing at that time.

(oh and yes the other stuff still applies :0)

 

Darn it, I figured there was a catch somewhere.

We occasionally have problems with boats messing up other boats' starts in our pursuit races; when I'm race committee I deal with it by informing them that their parking permit for the social afterward will be revoked.

I don't think that's in the rules but it keeps everyone playing nice

FB- Doug

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Darn it, I figured there was a catch somewhere.

We occasionally have problems with boats messing up other boats' starts in our pursuit races; when I'm race committee I deal with it by informing them that their parking permit for the social afterward will be revoked.

I don't think that's in the rules but it keeps everyone playing nice

FB- Doug

Power is going to your head. I can't imagine our club allowing power over parking permits to the RC :).

 

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4 hours ago, Reference said:

Here's the relevant language from the SIs:

9.2. This shall be a pursuit race with a reverse PHRF Time over Distance (ToD) starting order. The boat with the slowest rating (highest PHRF number) shall start first and the fastest rating (lowest PHRF number) shall start last.

9.4. A boat's individual preparatory signal is four (4) minutes prior to her individual scheduled start. After the first boat has started, there will be no visual signal or sound for any subsequent preparatory signal. This changes RRS 26.

10.1. If any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and she is identified, she shall be considered On Course Side (OCS). She shall not attempt to clear herself, start, or restart, and shall, instead, sail to the first mark. The race committee will attempt to broadcast her sail number on VHF channel 73. Flag X will not be used. This changes RRS 29.1. 

10.2. [DP] [NP] A boat that is scored OCS shall, without a hearing, be penalized by having 15-minutes. In RRS 28, the word "start" is replaced with "start or take a penalty in accordance with SI 14.2". This changes RRS 28, 63.1, A4, and A5.

Although unrelated to the original question, race committees need to be aware that it is no longer legal to write SIs such as this for alternate starting penalties for pursuit, distance, offshore or similar races. The reason being that the RRS 2021-24 has changed the definition for finish to say "A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side....". If a boat is OCS, she does not start & therefore cannot be scored as a finisher. And because these are definitions, they can't be changed by the NoR or SIs.

To resolve this, World Sailing has issued Development Rule 21-01 Alternative Starting Penalty.pdf. Race Committees can invoke DR21-01 to change the definition of start to cater for alternate penalties for being OCS.

Development Rule 21-01 Alternative Starting Penalty.pdf

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Our pursuit races add the following to avoid returning boats etc with a penalty of time but not a crazy penalty.

"A boat starting before the fall of her allocated handicap number will be penalised ONE minute for each full minute, or part thereof, that she starts early, plus two minutes. This penalty will be added to her actual finishing time for the race. Recall signals will not be made. A boat cannot exonerate starting before the fall of her handicap number."

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I noticed this one in previous Hamilton Island Race Week SIs.

For Dent Passage starts, a boat returning to start after being signalled as OCS may, at the discretion of the race committee, have an additional 5 minutes or greater added to her elapsed time in lieu of returning to start correctly. If applied, this will be communicated by VHF or on the water by an RC vessel as soon as possible. This changes RRS 28.1.

This used when there is a strong current in the starting area which has a tendency to push the unwary over the line at the start.  When they get signaled OCS and try to sail back against the tide and traffic, they find it very difficult to make headway back to the line to restart.  The Race committee seems to wait until the OCS boat has been passed by the whole fleet and then offer them the penalty or the option of sailing back to the start.  Most will take the penalty.  Its very much horses for course though and this one is only for the Dent Passage start in a north flowing tide (up to 4.5 knots)

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18 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

:lol:

Yep.... penalty for OCS is 30 minutes, oops, I can start 53 minutes early then, right?

But in answer to the OP, no. There's a rule against deliberately breaking a rule to gain an advantage greater than the penalty. Huh, who knew these rule-writers woulda thought of that!!

FB- Doug

I think there are actually two rules at play here;

Rule 44.1(b) says that if you break a rule, intentionally or not, and cause injury or serious damage, or gain an advantage after taking a turns penalty, the turns penalty is not available to you. You haven't taken an appropriate penalty for your breach, you should retire, you can be protested and DSQ'd (following a hearing).

From the reading of several WS cases, if you intentionally break a rule or are aware you broke a rule and do not take an appropriate penalty, whether you gain an advantage or not, you may have broken rule 2. The only penalty available for rule 2 is DNE.

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I'm not sure that Rule 2 should apply.

While we agree that the skipper is intentionally violating rule 11, it's because they are attempting to avoid breaking the Part 3 rule 28.1 (or rule 31). 

For example, no one would apply a Rule 2 penalty if, on a start, you have a choice between rubbing paint with a leeward competitor (rule 11 / 14) or t-boning the committee boat (rule 14, 31).  But in fact, it is a deliberate decision to violate one rule to avoid another violation. And arguably, they gain an advantage by doing turns for the minor bump rather than being DSQ'd for breaking the RC boat.

 

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Not allowing "re-starting" is further pussy-ifcation of the sport of sailing.   If you cant handle your yacht,  display sailing skills, in a seamanship like manner you shouldn't be out there anyway.

This was displayed at the start of the last Vendee Globe.  Boat was over early,  had all the room in the world to re-start, rather was not allowed to do so.  If you cant let the fleet pass you, and then  return the the line, maybe you shouldn't be sailing around the world.

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On 8/19/2021 at 8:55 PM, dcbsheb said:

There is this one little problem that you admit to above...

 

44.1 Taking a Penalty A boat may take a Two-Turns Penalty when she may have broken one or more rules of Part 2 in an incident while racing. She may take a One-Turn Penalty when she may have broken rule 31. Alternatively, sailing instructions may specify the use of the Scoring Penalty or some other penalty, in which case the specified penalty shall replace the One-Turn and the Two-Turns Penalty. However, (a) when a boat may have broken a rule of Part 2 and rule 31 in the same incident she need not take the penalty for breaking rule 31; (b) if the boat caused injury or serious damage or, despite taking a penalty, gained a significant advantage in the race or series by her breach her penalty shall be to retire.

"If you had avoided the contact, would you have been over the line?"

"no, I don't believe so"

"ok, protest dismissed"

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22 hours ago, Reference said:

I'm not sure that Rule 2 should apply.

While we agree that the skipper is intentionally violating rule 11, it's because they are attempting to avoid breaking the Part 3 rule 28.1 (or rule 31). 

 

But who put the boat in that dilemma?

I do agree though, people shouldn't be too quick to throw around Rule 2 accusations.

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On 8/20/2021 at 11:57 PM, Reference said:

I'm not sure that Rule 2 should apply.

While we agree that the skipper is intentionally violating rule 11, it's because they are attempting to avoid breaking the Part 3 rule 28.1 (or rule 31). 

For example, no one would apply a Rule 2 penalty if, on a start, you have a choice between rubbing paint with a leeward competitor (rule 11 / 14) or t-boning the committee boat (rule 14, 31).  But in fact, it is a deliberate decision to violate one rule to avoid another violation. And arguably, they gain an advantage by doing turns for the minor bump rather than being DSQ'd for breaking the RC boat.

 

A couple of comments

Firstly why in a normal round the cans race would a Race Committee try and re-invent the wheel with an arbitrary time penalty when there are adequate other measures if they have problems with premature starters. I say arbitrary because 15 minutes could cost more or less places depending on the wind strength.

RRS 30.1 (I Flag); 30.2(Z Flag) 30.3 (U Flag) and 30.4 (Black Flag)  give, in my opinion, sufficient choice of sanctions for a race committee to discourage habitual line pushers.

Regarding bearing down on a leeward boat to avoid OCS. If this is a deliberate - note I say deliberate -  planned strategy and a deliberate breaking of a rule it ceases to be JUST a Rule 11 incident. It is a deliberate disregard of one of the Part 2 Racing Rules of Sailing. It could also be taken as disrespectful of the sport. 

In match racing the umpires would have you spinning until they were satisfied any advantage of the rules breach had been nullified.

It is also indisputably an unfair action in that it is a disregard of one rule (11) to avoid a greater penalty for being OCS. If there was any proof that it was a deliberate action to 'cheat the system' then the Rule 2 hearing could be rather short ending with an invitation to attend a further hearing to discuss 69 in the near future.

Even mentioning on a forum that it 'could be a good idea' is evidence of intent.

Further the idea that the right of way  boat is bound to keep out of the way to avoid damage is further evidence of 'bullying' which is a straight to 69 offence.

It also needs to be remembered that the right of way has to be CLEAR the other boat is not keeping clear.

If people get away with deliberately breaking rules then where does it end? 

Every time you go to the room the result could be a lot more expensive than playing the game fairly.

Finally, try that sort of trick once and be spotted and your future sailing is fucked because you will be watched by everyone around you    

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If you are the Windward boat making contact with the leeward, it can be difficult to disengage as the stern cannot rotate, can stay glued for a bit.  This would make determining  if it was deliberate, futile if the offender denied it.

If the SIs were written like that to cater for a downwind or reaching start, as safe as possible, then I think it's fair enough.  everyone has the choice of racing under those SIs or not.

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I just read through this whole thread and this is obviously another "get a life" discussion. We are talking about long distance pursuit racing, probably at club level. These are most often organized as fun races to get everybody back to the club or somewhere else to a party at more or less the same time. Also to get some people out who don't normally race, because it's "just a sail with purpose" rather than the insane battle at the start line. 

Any pursuit races I have done we were the only boat on the line when it came time to start. I can't imagine that there would be more than 2 or maybe 3 boats starting at the same time. If you know the other guy starting with you is a jerk, just stay away from him or start a few seconds late. 

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7 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

A couple of comments

Firstly why in a normal round the cans race would a Race Committee try and re-invent the wheel with an arbitrary time penalty when there are adequate other measures if they have problems with premature starters. I say arbitrary because 15 minutes could cost more or less places depending on the wind strength.

RRS 30.1 (I Flag); 30.2(Z Flag) 30.3 (U Flag) and 30.4 (Black Flag)  give, in my opinion, sufficient choice of sanctions for a race committee to discourage habitual line pushers.

 

Each one of those rules deals with boats that are over the line before the start signal, not at the start signal.  So, if a RC wants to penalize OCS boats in a different way than scoring them OCS, and allow them a finish time, they would still have to write that into the SIs.  The SIs ITT are for a pursuit race, so a time penalty for jumping your own personal gun seems more appropriate than the flag rules designed to cool everyone's jets on busy and crowded start lines.

Also note that Athwart's post points out that the only way to alter the SIs to allow OCS boats to be scored, is to use the developmental rule that he posted.  And in that rule, it states that if you use it, then Z, U, and black flags can't be used.

So you can use those flags, but they generally defeat the purpose of allowing OCS boats to be scored, which is the goal here.

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On 8/19/2021 at 4:29 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Darn it, I figured there was a catch somewhere.

We occasionally have problems with boats messing up other boats' starts in our pursuit races; when I'm race committee I deal with it by informing them that their parking permit for the social afterward will be revoked.

I don't think that's in the rules but it keeps everyone playing nice

FB- Doug

+1. Pols, however, do not think that way....Me? I llike the way you think...always make the other dodger look good....

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Steam Flyer  (Doug) +1...Pols, however, do not think that way....

 

Me? I llike the way you think...always make the other dodger look good...as crrepy as they can be!

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13 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

RRS 30.1 (I Flag); 30.2(Z Flag) 30.3 (U Flag) and 30.4 (Black Flag)  give, in my opinion, sufficient choice of sanctions for a race committee to discourage habitual line pushers.

Mmm, but a pursuit race brings a lot of different challenges. Starts are probably at one minute intervals, so anyone returning is liable to get tangled up in the middle of the next start, which is awkward both for the other competitors and the RC. The options for fleet starts don't work very well. As an example, consider the problems in a situation when you'd normally signal a general recall...

 

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7 hours ago, coyotepup said:

Each one of those rules deals with boats that are over the line before the start signal, not at the start signal.  So, if a RC wants to penalize OCS boats in a different way than scoring them OCS, and allow them a finish time, they would still have to write that into the SIs.  The SIs ITT are for a pursuit race, so a time penalty for jumping your own personal gun seems more appropriate than the flag rules designed to cool everyone's jets on busy and crowded start lines.

Also note that Athwart's post points out that the only way to alter the SIs to allow OCS boats to be scored, is to use the developmental rule that he posted.  And in that rule, it states that if you use it, then Z, U, and black flags can't be used.

So you can use those flags, but they generally defeat the purpose of allowing OCS boats to be scored, which is the goal here.

The original FP post doesn't mention that this is for pursuit races. 

I understand now. Apologies for not reading all the intervening comments.

My bad for just responding to the original post and not reading the whole thread and therefore it was pursuit races that were being discussed . 

The comments about professional fouls are still relevant though as just how far should we allow rule benders to push it?

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The worst part about the Black Flag is when it is applied to a Fleet of Larger Yachts when there are only a dozen Yachts on the line, really limits the options and strategy when starting. It is often caused by other fleets starting on the same line and the RC just applies it to all Starts. A very lazy and inappropriate application. But hey, it makes it easy ...isn't that what we all want....easy not traditional. I prefer flags only, minimum announcements and the old school way.  Separates the men from the ...well these days who knows ....R2D2CP3O.  

 

The Best Part About "Black Flag" Flag was Kira the Bass Player !

 

24

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17 hours ago, JimC said:

Mmm, but a pursuit race brings a lot of different challenges. Starts are probably at one minute intervals, so anyone returning is liable to get tangled up in the middle of the next start, which is awkward both for the other competitors and the RC. The options for fleet starts don't work very well. As an example, consider the problems in a situation when you'd normally signal a general recall...

 

There’s an easy fix for that. Set an OCS buoy off to the side of the starting line that offenders have to round instead of recrossing the line. 

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On 8/23/2021 at 8:51 AM, Snaggletooth said:

A rulles questione and noi imputte frome @Brass ?  Haive we loste hime?

Watching from the sidelines.  Everything seems to be going fine, just fine.

But since you asked:

Penalty imposed without a hearing for OCS makes sense in some club races.  Thanks to Athwart for the link to the Development rule.

I think 15 or 20 minutes is a bit heavy handed, even if it is proportionate to a rule 44.3 Scoring Penalty.  I like something in the region of 5 or 10 minutes, with discretion to the race committee works well.

As to actual problems with boats returning to restart, The CYCA Sydney Winter Series pursuit races, with up to 120 starters, just allow a normal start with OCS and return and the Sydney Hobart race uses an I Flag start, and we hope and pray that the Port Authority marshals keep spectator craft one Wild Oats width away from the pin boat.

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1 hour ago, Brass said:
On 8/22/2021 at 6:51 PM, Snaggletooth said:

A rulles questione and noi imputte frome @Brass ?  Haive we loste hime?

Watching from the sidelines.  Everything seems to be going fine, just fine.

But since you asked:

Thack you.                                   :)

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6 hours ago, Brass said:

Watching from the sidelines.  Everything seems to be going fine, just fine.

But since you asked:

Penalty imposed without a hearing for OCS makes sense in some club races.  Thanks to Athwart for the link to the Development rule.

I think 15 or 20 minutes is a bit heavy handed, even if it is proportionate to a rule 44.3 Scoring Penalty.  I like something in the region of 5 or 10 minutes, with discretion to the race committee works well.

As to actual problems with boats returning to restart, The CYCA Sydney Winter Series pursuit races, with up to 120 starters, just allow a normal start with OCS and return and the Sydney Hobart race uses an I Flag start, and we hope and pray that the Port Authority marshals keep spectator craft one Wild Oats width away from the pin boat.

Wouldn't help the Big Indian much,  she is a Wild Oats + a Volvo wide!

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On 8/19/2021 at 3:35 PM, Reference said:

Here's the relevant language from the SIs:

9.2. This shall be a pursuit race with a reverse PHRF Time over Distance (ToD) starting order. The boat with the slowest rating (highest PHRF number) shall start first and the fastest rating (lowest PHRF number) shall start last.

9.4. A boat's individual preparatory signal is four (4) minutes prior to her individual scheduled start. After the first boat has started, there will be no visual signal or sound for any subsequent preparatory signal. This changes RRS 26.

10.1. If any part of a boat’s hull is on the course side of the starting line at her starting signal and she is identified, she shall be considered On Course Side (OCS). She shall not attempt to clear herself, start, or restart, and shall, instead, sail to the first mark. The race committee will attempt to broadcast her sail number on VHF channel 73. Flag X will not be used. This changes RRS 29.1. 

10.2. [DP] [NP] A boat that is scored OCS shall, without a hearing, be penalized by having 15-minutes. In RRS 28, the word "start" is replaced with "start or take a penalty in accordance with SI 14.2". This changes RRS 28, 63.1, A4, and A5.

Ah ha, now I understand.

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