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The whisker pole not the stripper pole, you pervs.

Per the advice of several people here, I got out for a sail after work and rigged the adjustable whisker pole and tried a variety of things with the jib.

First, my whisker pole is not the same diameter as my spinnaker pole. I know that's been stated as a possible weak link when using the pole in heavy weather. I acknowledge this.

Second, my whisker pole has an open jaw with a sheave on the end that connects with the clew of the jib. I'm not sure what that's about. I need to find a way to close the jaw or replace the end fitting or just replace the whisker pole. The end of the pole could potentially shake off the clew during a flog.

Third, I need to splice a downfucker bridle to the whisker pole for use in heavier weather. I will attach this to my normal spinnaker downhaul. Some folks were talking about extra guys and stuff. My boat is small and my headsail is smaller than most so I don't think I need a full set of guys on top of sheets.

Otherwise, the experiments seemed to go well. I determined the length necessary to allow me to furl the jib and then roll it out again during a heavy weather gybe. I can see how poling out a small bit of jib in a strong downwind breeze could help stabilize the boat. I then just used the whisker pole as you normally would on a wing-on-wing run in a light breeze.  Of course it eliminated the balloon popping and kept the sail stable.

I have photos which I'll post later this evening.

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Well, that's a relief...  

 fat-man-pole-dancing-sticker-32672-550x550.png.407f76b53a9768eaefc4e5d66d95af37.png 

 

For me the key bit was having a set-up that allowed me to furl the genoa and leave the pole in place. 

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This pole seems to lock in place after twisting it a certain amount, like it's eccentric. I am unsure of what will happen in stronger conditions. IE, will the pole extend or collapse?

My local shop, Bacon Sails used to sell a lot of used spin and whisker poles but they seem to be discouraging that sort of inventory these days. New whisker poles are hella expensive.

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About the only time I furl the sail with the pole attached is a downwind start in a non-slip race.

On my boat,  I can slide the mast ring high enough to do a dip pole jibe. The pole has to be collapsed to min length, and the sail blows out on the "old" side of the forestay and has to be dragged back, but it avoids the "all hell breaks loose" moment that happens if the pole is detached from the mast.

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

Second, my whisker pole has an open jaw with a sheave on the end that connects with the clew of the jib. I'm not sure what that's about.

is it the forespar reaching strut fitting? 

Many pole ends are attached with rivets (or machine screws) and relatively easy to change out, just need to be sure of the pole ID to get the replacement.

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Bacons' inventory is depleted throughout the store!  They didn't take in consignments during Covid shutdown and sold off lots of stuff.  

sounds like you pole is a twist lock (like a boat hook).  Perhaps drill and pin it once you have perfected it?

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53 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

is it the forespar reaching strut fitting? 

Many pole ends are attached with rivets (or machine screws) and relatively easy to change out, just need to be sure of the pole ID to get the replacement.

That's exactly it. I though reaching struts were fat and short? It's a strange end to have on such a long pole. I don't recall any screws or rivets but I'll look at it again. Hopefully I can change it out.

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45 minutes ago, jsaronson said:

Bacons' inventory is depleted throughout the store!  They didn't take in consignments during Covid shutdown and sold off lots of stuff.  

sounds like you pole is a twist lock (like a boat hook).  Perhaps drill and pin it once you have perfected it?

Ah, that's a great idea. Thanks.

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20 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Question - why faff about with a whisker pole if you have a proper spinnaker pole? Or are you planning to go double poled? 

A spinnaker pole is limited to J. A genoa needs enough pole to match the J of the sail, otherwise you're sailing with it partially furled.

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11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

A spinnaker pole is limited to J. A genoa needs enough pole to match the J of the sail, otherwise you're sailing with it partially furled.

I find a J-length spinnaker pole works well enough for a 135% or less genoa, is stronger, and has all the right fittings. I find I get the best performance with a bit of camber in the sail and slightly backwinded.  

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3 hours ago, Elegua said:

Well, that's a relief...  

 fat-man-pole-dancing-sticker-32672-550x550.png.407f76b53a9768eaefc4e5d66d95af37.png 

 

For me the key bit was having a set-up that allowed me to furl the genoa and leave the pole in place. 

Good thing you blocked out the face.  But the hot body silhouette gives it all away...

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21 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Question - why faff about with a whisker pole if you have a proper spinnaker pole? Or are you planning to go double poled? 

Other way to go “double poled”, with two headsails, is to use the boom as a pole.  You probably know what I mean...I don’t know what that set up is called.  Jib and jigger leeward boom-pole-a-rama, or something like that.  Run a ine from clew of a headsail back through (snatch) block on boom, which is eased all the way forward. (Obviously on the side of the boat opposite the other pole.) 

Never done it - always meaning to try it...keep forgetting to!

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2 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Other way to go “double poled”, with two headsails, is to use the boom as a pole.  You probably know what I mean... and don’t known what that set up is called.  Line from clew of other headsail back through (snatch) block on boom, which is eased all the way forward. (Obviously on the side of the boat opposite the other pole.) 

Never done it - always meaning to try it...keep forgetting to!

An, "outgrabber", when used with a spinnaker. I've not tried with a genoa. 

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19 minutes ago, Elegua said:

An, "outgrabber", when used with a spinnaker. I've not tried with a genoa. 

What with outgrabbers and downfuckers, this is all getting a bit S&M.  #NTTAWWT

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

 I though reaching struts were fat and short? It's a strange end to have on such a long pole. 

yea they usually are. - perhaps for use when the pole is full collapsed - idk.

changing the end fitting will be best if it is possible and I guess it is (look for three fasteners around the collar of the fitting); but if not, I could imagine ways to close that fitting end.

The thing about a regular jaw is that you can drop the line out of it without un-rigging the pole - if you are using a lazy sheet, you usually dont need to but sometimes it comes in handy.

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My method is to attach one end of the hammock to the forward jaw of the pole, then connect the other end to the ring at the mast. The key to this method is to make sure the upfucker is belayed securely, or the hammock will douse unexpectedly (I speak from experience).  It also helps to pull back on the spinnaker sheet to keep the pole from hitting the forestay and disturbing my nap.

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25 minutes ago, Corryvreckan said:

My method is to attach one end of the hammock to the forward jaw of the pole, then connect the other end to the ring at the mast. The key to this method is to make sure the upfucker is belayed securely, or the hammock will douse unexpectedly (I speak from experience).  It also helps to pull back on the spinnaker sheet to keep the pole from hitting the forestay and disturbing my nap.

That's your Code ZZZZ setup?

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

What with outgrabbers and downfuckers, this is all getting a bit S&M.  #NTTAWWT

Everything in the world is about sex, except sex.  It's also very had to do foredeck in Romance and Germanic languages without giggling. 

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I like to slip-knot/lark’s head a dyneema loop in the jib’s clew ring and clip the pole to that.  Then the pole doesn’t slide down the jibsheet.  It also gives you something to grab when clipping on the pole.  Chafe is on the loop instead of the sheet, etc.

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Forespar will happily sell you a replacement end fitting. Give a yell to Randy Risvold, randall@forespar.com. You can remove the old fitting by heating the pole end with a torch- here is a note he sent me:

"You will need to use a hand held propane torch and heat the alum tube up for about four min in order to soften the epoxy glue enough in order to be able to get the endfitting out. The new end can be installed using three 10-24 roundhead machine screws."

 
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I’ve seen end-fittings on Ebay from time to time - can’t remember what query brought them up.

I guess if they put a reaching-strut fitting on the end it was because they intended to run a line through it.  I.e. the sheet.  I can sorta see the logic, assuming that the pole is fixed by its own guys.  In my own feeble endeavors, I’ve just used the spinnaker pole. (Until the ancient topping lift line parted and put the kibosh on that.) There was some extra friction, but not a big deal in the winds at hand.  The pole down-haul on my boat is sorta weird - I think I need to experiment with a couple of fixed guys to the stanchion bases.  

FWIW, I use the ATN Tacker, hoist on the spin halyard for the forward end of the hammock.  

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18 hours ago, Ajax said:

Third, I need to splice a downfucker bridle to the whisker pole for use in heavier weather. I will attach this to my normal spinnaker downhaul. Some folks were talking about extra guys and stuff. My boat is small and my headsail is smaller than most so I don't think I need a full set of guys on top of sheets.

The consensus amongst people who do long distance stuff with a poled out furling genoa seems to be :

  • 1 uphauler
  • 1 downhauler going forward
  • 1 downhauler going backward to the rail toward the middle of the boat

These 3 lines are rigged to the tip of the pole to minimise compression and locate the tip of the pole in 3D.

Then at the end of the pole, some kind of pulley is rigged to lead the sheet.

To use it, you need to locate the pole roughly in the right position and pull on the sheet to unroll the jib.

For gybing, you either have 2 poles or add a downhauler (the one going backward) and keep the pole short enough so that it can be gybed without too much fuss. With one pole you have to furl to gybe.

That's properly overkill for coastal cruising but some ideas might be worth adapting.

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That's a bit left field, but a "jib stick" as used on some dinghies, might be appropriate on a smaller cruising boat. Obviously a dyneema line as a track won't cut it but with a mast track of good quality, it would probably be a very simple and efficient way of poling out a smallish jib.

http://www.albacore.org.uk/Projects/jibstick.htm

Disclaimer : I've never used one!

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

That's a bit left field, but a "jib stick" as used on some dinghies, might be appropriate on a smaller cruising boat. Obviously a dyneema line as a track won't cut it but with a mast track of good quality, it would probably be a very simple and efficient way of poling out a smallish jib.

http://www.albacore.org.uk/Projects/jibstick.htm

Disclaimer : I've never used one!

I use one of those all the time, on my small dinghy. Not sure I'd want to on a yacht. I think chafe would be an issue.

The key benifit on a dinghy is controlling the sheet angle when used to leward. It wouldn't work with an overlapping headsail and the loads are pretty big.

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

The consensus amongst people who do long distance stuff with a poled out furling genoa seems to be :

  • 1 uphauler
  • 1 downhauler going forward
  • 1 downhauler going backward to the rail toward the middle of the boat

These 3 lines are rigged to the tip of the pole to minimise compression and locate the tip of the pole in 3D.

Then at the end of the pole, some kind of pulley is rigged to lead the sheet.

To use it, you need to locate the pole roughly in the right position and pull on the sheet to unroll the jib.

For gybing, you either have 2 poles or add a downhauler (the one going backward) and keep the pole short enough so that it can be gybed without too much fuss. With one pole you have to furl to gybe.

That's properly overkill for coastal cruising but some ideas might be worth adapting.

Yes, in my experiments I was furling to gybe. In strong weather, I wouldn't be paying out much jib anyway so this made the most sense to me. The reason I didn't think an uphaul was necessary is because of the jib clew's natural tendency to rise when off the wind. I mean, I guess whipping up an additional uphaul bridle is no big deal. I can use my existing spinnaker pole uphaul for the whisker pole.

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Not to be controversial but you don't need bridals.

We use bridals to provide a mid point take off. We use a mid point take off so we can end for end gybe the kite on a small boat. You're not end for end gybing.

Attaching the lines directly to the pole close to the outboard end will actually triangulate and stabilise it better. Loads are low on those lines on a jibstick.

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11 hours ago, Elegua said:

Everything in the world is about sex, except sex.  

Speaking of that.  This vid below somehow popped up in my YT feed yesterday.  *Somehow*.  (Everything the algorithm sends me is sailing, world news, and occasional music and physics/engineering stuff. 

And then this (below), unexpectedly.  Good listen.  Very intelligent and articulate.  (And I’m pretty sure there’s a pole in there somewhere being discussed - seriously.)

 

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13 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Not to be controversial but you don't need bridals.

We use bridals to provide a mid point take off. We use a mid point take off so we can end for end gybe the kite on a small boat. You're not end for end gybing.

Attaching the lines directly to the pole close to the outboard end will actually triangulate and stabilise it better. Loads are low on those lines on a jibstick.

Thanks, I will try that first.

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Speaking of that.  This vid below somehow popped up in my YT feed yesterday.  *Somehow*.  (Everything the algorithm sends me is sailing, world news, and occasional music and physics/engineering stuff. 

And then this (below), unexpectedly.  Good listen.  Very intelligent and articulate.  (And I’m pretty sure there’s a pole in there somewhere being discussed - seriously.)

 

Too bad the guy is such a tool 

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Just now, Elegua said:

Too bad the guy is such a tool 

Yeah, he does ruin it.  Well, it’s a stupid program with a stupid host trying to be funny.  He’s probably weirded out that he’s actually talking to the woman he used to silently, er, admire years ago....

Anyway, back to the pole :-)

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On my T-33 I have a pole and almost never use it with my 135 jib. 
 

When AWA >90 or 100, I put a snatch block on the sheet and hook it to the toe rail just forward of the boarding gate.  I add a second block to bring it in the gate and into the full retracted Genoa Car (Garhauer adjustable).   When I get deeper I use just the block at the gate.

 

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

Yes, in my experiments I was furling to gybe. In strong weather, I wouldn't be paying out much jib anyway so this made the most sense to me. The reason I didn't think an uphaul was necessary is because of the jib clew's natural tendency to rise when off the wind. I mean, I guess whipping up an additional uphaul bridle is no big deal. I can use my existing spinnaker pole uphaul for the whisker pole.

Yes, the uphaul is there purely so that the pole stays put whatever happens to the jib.

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So just a thought...all the faff about the semi-permanent foreguys is because most times when you are using the pole, you have the boom prevented at the same time. If you are storing your pole on the mast, keeping the topping life / uphaul in place (and marked) makes it much easier to drop the pole into position. 

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2 hours ago, Snore said:

On my T-33 I have a pole and almost never use it with my 135 jib. 
 

When AWA >90 or 100, I put a snatch block on the sheet and hook it to the toe rail just forward of the boarding gate.  I add a second block to bring it in the gate and into the full retracted Genoa Car (Garhauer adjustable).   When I get deeper I use just the block at the gate.

 

I read about that in some Tartan documentation or reviews somewhere. I also think Semi Salt said that was normal procedure on a T-33 he raced on.

Using the second block and fully retracting the car is a new bit that I hadn't heard of. When you say "retract" do you mean moving all the way aft?

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5 hours ago, Ajax said:

I read about that in some Tartan documentation or reviews somewhere. I also think Semi Salt said that was normal procedure on a T-33 he raced on.

Using the second block and fully retracting the car is a new bit that I hadn't heard of. When you say "retract" do you mean moving all the way aft?

Yes, pull the adjustable car full aft.  If the sheet is long enough, the geometry may work to go from the snatch block at the gate to,the winch.
 

A person who does NOT have a 33 suggested when on a deep broad reach to take the jib sheet from the jib to a snatch block on the bail that holds the main sheet to the boom to the winch.  Spending too I have time on deliveries to mess with that… 

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@Ajax went saling yesterday and realized you could test my suggestion with 2 low friction rings.  

 

Place a LF ring (#1) with a line on it onto the jib sheet.  Take a second LF ring (#2) and connect it to the toe rail--- with a soft shackle??  Run the line from #1 through #2 and up to the cabin top winch.  For $20-$30 you could play with the snatch block routing without the expense.   LF ring #1 could be replaced with a rolling hitch, or bowline, but that would make trimming harder.

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Snatch block works well on a beam to broad reach.  We run the lazy sheet through the snatch block and swap sheets on the winch.  Anything deeper, the pole is more effective, but I don't bother unless it is a long sail.

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