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I’m so glad there’s a community of yacht designers on SA that can tell me if a boat is a shitter just from 2 renders 

There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same

communication about this boat is under full control of marketing department so until they spill the beans, we can't publish  or say anything. However, few things to consider... Working with Sam Manuar

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4 minutes ago, Crash said:

Yes, but you only get half-credit!  On the plus side, your IRC rating will get better...

Hadn’t thought of that. We’re only rated for PHRF and ORC though. We’ll avoid running aground until IRC catches on around here. 

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On 8/31/2021 at 11:01 PM, DingDong said:

A gloriously, gloriously cunty reply - I sail an F40 double handed - love the big BOI telling us that Bene sailers can’t navigate! We aren’t winners but we love sailing. Sailing partner and I looking into an F36 but I now bow to your incomparable knowledge - such a near escape!!

Hey, relax!  I am sure that everyone is very pleased for you that your Bendytoy is one of those where the keel hasn't fallen off .... yet.

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6 hours ago, Caecilian said:

Personally I am so excited at this breakthrough design, in a sea of white production boats its stands out in the crowd. Any true sailing connoisseur will recognise it from a great distance.

breakthrough design? 

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2 minutes ago, BayRacer said:

Think he forgot the purple font.....

oops. lol. and yeah, sticking two wheels on it does seem to push it into the 'heavier' and 'cruisier' design space. pretty sure this will end up north of 11,500 lbs..

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On 8/26/2021 at 3:35 AM, Fintho said:

Does this really fill any kind of niche in the market? What box does this tick that a J99 or J111, or a 3300 or 3600 doesn't?  

I don't know much about the 3300 or 3600, but I moved from a 36.7 to a J/111. My guess would be that the answer to your question would be in how well this boat sails and how fast it is as a more cruisy racer. The 36.7 was 13,000+ pounds, and was fairly comfortable but the ginormous wheel and raised traveler made getting around the helm and cockpit difficult. The bunks below got too narrow at the forward half. It was too tender for both short handed cruising and ocean racing with a SI of about 112. And of course, overlapping headsails and sym spinns. It has some plusses, like the huge port quarter berth, but overall I think it cruises okay and races just okay, although it can be made to race well. It did win N2B one year and other big stuff.

The J/111, well there is nothing cruisy about it. I found that I was not cruising much and wanted asyms, non-overlapping headsails, a bigger cockpit and more speed / fun yet I do sometimes miss some of the comfort. If this boat can approach the performance of a J/111 but make the boat easier to sail as a shorthanded cruiser and more comfortable racer, they might have a winner. Hopefully it will tick the boxes to qualify as an ocean racer (things like the toe rail, stability, pulpit dimensions, all that kind of stuff). Also I think Benes tend to be more affordable than other boats, at least on initial purchase.  

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  • 5 weeks later...

Gents, some details that needs to be taken into account. Beneteau put the 36 project in hibernation in 2019 after they realized they cannot make make it performant and lucrative enough to pass the corporate decision gate.  Fast forward to 2021... after the powers to be decided that Seascape must leave the Group, 36 project was part of divorce settlement. Seascape was allowed to do what it can to make it ... simpler, lighter, more ergonomic, while Beneteau was and still is helping with its accum,ulated expertise, from purhcase chain to hard earned lessons regarding safety. It is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences.
Structure of the boat was completely redesigned by PURE Team New Zealand (Giovanni Belgrano & Co), with emphasis on making it lighter, simpler and less ... volume production adapted.  We took quite some effort to remove redundant parts and structure, limit the number of options and do whatever can be done in this limited time period to make the boat lighter. For a modern planning boat, I firmly believe that making a stiff an light boat is the key to performance.
Where will this take us? I hope we will be able to make a boat that looks classic but has a distinct wow factor once you have a chance to sail it. After all, a while ago, Scot wrote on these pages "bent over and from behind , they all look the same..."

 

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On 8/26/2021 at 11:20 PM, JL92S said:

I’m so glad there’s a community of yacht designers on SA that can tell me if a boat is a shitter just from 2 renders 

As evidence read the first page of the J/111 thread in J/Boat Anarchy.  To say the peanut gallery nailed it would be an understatement.  Oh, wait... Except they missed on the performance and sales.  Does anything else matter?  

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2 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Gents, some details that needs to be taken into account. Beneteau put the 36 project in hibernation in 2019 after they realized they cannot make make it performant and lucrative enough to pass the corporate decision gate.  Fast forward to 2021... after the powers to be decided that Seascape must leave the Group, 36 project was part of divorce settlement. Seascape was allowed to do what it can to make it ... simpler, lighter, more ergonomic, while Beneteau was and still is helping with its accum,ulated expertise, from purhcase chain to hard earned lessons regarding safety. It is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences.
Structure of the boat was completely redesigned by PURE Team New Zealand (Giovanni Belgrano & Co), with emphasis on making it lighter, simpler and less ... volume production adapted.  We took quite some effort to remove redundant parts and structure, limit the number of options and do whatever can be done in this limited time period to make the boat lighter. For a modern planning boat, I firmly believe that making a stiff an light boat is the key to performance.
Where will this take us? I hope we will be able to make a boat that looks classic but has a distinct wow factor once you have a chance to sail it. After all, a while ago, Scot wrote on these pages "bent over and from behind , they all look the same..."

 

Might sound like a basic question but are you happy with how the boat has turned out? I was fortunate to take a Seascape/First 24se out sailing a couple of times and it made me want one badly, even if half the feeling of the 24 has transferred to the 36 I would probably love it too

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2 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Gents, some details that needs to be taken into account. Beneteau put the 36 project in hibernation in 2019 after they realized they cannot make make it performant and lucrative enough to pass the corporate decision gate.  Fast forward to 2021... after the powers to be decided that Seascape must leave the Group, 36 project was part of divorce settlement. Seascape was allowed to do what it can to make it ... simpler, lighter, more ergonomic, while Beneteau was and still is helping with its accum,ulated expertise, from purhcase chain to hard earned lessons regarding safety. It is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences.
Structure of the boat was completely redesigned by PURE Team New Zealand (Giovanni Belgrano & Co), with emphasis on making it lighter, simpler and less ... volume production adapted.  We took quite some effort to remove redundant parts and structure, limit the number of options and do whatever can be done in this limited time period to make the boat lighter. For a modern planning boat, I firmly believe that making a stiff an light boat is the key to performance.
Where will this take us? I hope we will be able to make a boat that looks classic but has a distinct wow factor once you have a chance to sail it. After all, a while ago, Scot wrote on these pages "bent over and from behind , they all look the same..."

 

Hi Kristian

 

Have seascape and beneteau parted company? You talk about a divorce? Are there going to be new seascapes? I remember being in your offices outside Ljubljana looking at some of the prep work for this boat back in 2018. All the plans for what you saw as the competition were on the walls. 

 

Good luck with what you do next. 

 

 

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On 8/27/2021 at 3:12 AM, BOI Guy said:

The only place a Beneteau is ever going to be competitive is in a one design race against its sisters.

Our little Bene did pretty well against these big budget boats in the Around Long Island Regatta. 2nd in the spinnaker fleet, and our keel stayed on the whole timeimage.thumb.png.6cc50b4316b319891baaed785e236794.png

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20 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Gents, some details that needs to be taken into account. Beneteau put the 36 project in hibernation in 2019 after they realized they cannot make make it performant and lucrative enough to pass the corporate decision gate.  Fast forward to 2021... after the powers to be decided that Seascape must leave the Group, 36 project was part of divorce settlement. Seascape was allowed to do what it can to make it ... simpler, lighter, more ergonomic, while Beneteau was and still is helping with its accum,ulated expertise, from purhcase chain to hard earned lessons regarding safety. It is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences.
Structure of the boat was completely redesigned by PURE Team New Zealand (Giovanni Belgrano & Co), with emphasis on making it lighter, simpler and less ... volume production adapted.  We took quite some effort to remove redundant parts and structure, limit the number of options and do whatever can be done in this limited time period to make the boat lighter. For a modern planning boat, I firmly believe that making a stiff an light boat is the key to performance.
Where will this take us? I hope we will be able to make a boat that looks classic but has a distinct wow factor once you have a chance to sail it. After all, a while ago, Scot wrote on these pages "bent over and from behind , they all look the same..."

So, I ran this through my de-jargonification software (its still in beta though, so expect flaws :)

"Beneteau put the 36 project in hibernation in 2019 after they realized they cannot make make it performant and lucrative enough to pass the corporate decision gate."

  • corporate suits couldn't dumb it down enough to be profitable.

"Fast forward to 2021... after the powers to be decided that Seascape must leave the Group, 36 project was part of divorce settlement."

  • same set of suits couldn't dumb down Seascape enough to be profitable. 

"Seascape was allowed to do what it can to make it ... simpler, lighter, more ergonomic, while Beneteau was and still is helping with its accum,ulated expertise, from purhcase chain to hard earned lessons regarding safety. It is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences."

  • some of the suits still sail though, so not completely abandoning the cool kids at Seascape.

"Structure of the boat was completely redesigned by PURE Team New Zealand (Giovanni Belgrano & Co), with emphasis on making it lighter, simpler and less ... volume production adapted."

  • better than a B boat, but yes more expensive.

"We took quite some effort to remove redundant parts and structure, limit the number of options and do whatever can be done in this limited time period to make the boat lighter."

  • the suits are cutting us loose in just a few months, so we gotta act quick.

"For a modern planning boat, I firmly believe that making a stiff an light boat is the key to performance. Where will this take us? I hope we will be able to make a boat that looks classic but has a distinct wow factor once you have a chance to sail it."

  • after all, we all like to sail.

"After all, a while ago, Scot wrote on these pages "bent over and from behind , they all look the same...""

  • umm. buy an ad?
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3 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

... 2nd in the spinnaker fleet, and our keel stayed on the whole time

I would think that would be a big advantage, although if you have a symmetric boat and point the bow at the downwind mark, especially if you're on the last leg, wouldn't dropping the keel be a big help? I'm told they can make a lot of drag. 

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1 minute ago, George Dewey said:

I would think that would be a big advantage, although if you have a symmetric boat and point the bow at the downwind mark, especially if you're on the last leg, wouldn't dropping the keel be a big help? I'm told they can make a lot of drag. 

I suppose it depends on the length of the downwind leg. The reduction in drag would need to offset the added displacement from the water gushing in the giant hole in the bottom!

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57 minutes ago, freewheelin said:

Our little Bene did pretty well against these big budget boats in the Around Long Island Regatta. 2nd in the spinnaker fleet, and our keel stayed on the whole timeimage.thumb.png.6cc50b4316b319891baaed785e236794.png

Way to go freewheelin!  It was obviously a slow boats race.  What happened?  I assuming the breeze picked up after the big guys finished?  Or did the wind let you guys hit the tide gates on the flood, while the big guys hit the ebb?  None the less, well done!

Crash

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Way to go freewheelin!  It was obviously a slow boats race.  What happened?  I assuming the breeze picked up after the big guys finished?  Or did the wind let you guys hit the tide gates on the flood, while the big guys hit the ebb?  None the less, well done!

Crash

Thanks Crash! It was a really a combination of everything that made for a super lucky race for us. The wind was up from the start and stayed up the whole time. The first day/night was in the high 20's, gusting to low 40s. The rest of the race stayed mostly around 18-20 if I remember. Since the scoring was time over distance, a fast favored the slower boats I think.

The other lucky component I think was that the wind clocked from the south, to west, to north. So the super fast boats rounding Montauk first probably had to deal with some amount of wind on their nose, while it was still on our tail.

In a multi-day race, it is hard to say what was happening on the other boats. But that was what we saw onboard. We thought we were battling our division - never once thought we were doing well in the fleet. It was wet, and wild, and cold, and fun!

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  • 2 weeks later...

so. this was the guy Beneteau hired to design their new boat..  "Mass has been said. Everyone's doing scow . They are more efficient boats. The more scows there are in the class, the harder it will be to make good rankings with classic boats."

 https://www.bateaux.com/article/38132/analyse-et-evolution-de-la-class40-l-avis-de-l-architecte-sam-manuard?utm_source=bateaux-Hebdo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_content=article

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, Bene’s numbers are - 4,800 kg and SA/D upwind 29, downwind 65. No trial IRC Cert available as yet.

Optimised for double handed. 

Not too shabby for a dual purpose boat?

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19 minutes ago, DingDong said:

So, Bene’s numbers are - 4,800 kg and SA/D upwind 29, downwind 65. No trial IRC Cert available as yet.

Optimised for double handed. 

Not too shabby for a dual purpose boat?

where did you find those #'s?

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It certainly hits the spot for me. Looks pretty light weight considering the interior fit out - I guess that’s down to manufacturing improvements since the First 36.7?

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30 minutes ago, DingDong said:

It certainly hits the spot for me. Looks pretty light weight considering the interior fit out - I guess that’s down to manufacturing improvements since the First 36.7?

my understanding is yes. different boat yard. I guess the challenge is cost of manufacture vs. quality of build (weight and stiffness). 

and another tradeoff - sail area vs. shorthanded sailing. This one seems to go big on sail area. and overall a cooler boat than I had expected. Who doesn't like to plane early.

just curious why no option for a tiller?

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2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Let's remember that most cruiser races don't weigh in to their numbers...

Let's wait and see, we'll have some idea of they bothered to put it together properly then as well.

The light number will probably be half load in race configuration. Even so, their statement that "To be specific, even the standard version of First 36 will fully plane in a moderate breeze." is pretty bold & encouraging.

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2 hours ago, DingDong said:

It certainly hits the spot for me. Looks pretty light weight considering the interior fit out - I guess that’s down to manufacturing improvements since the First 36.7?

She's still heavy, a 40 year old Express 37 is the same displacement, but the express actually carries a higher % in the keel. 

Now, I would expect the more modern shape will be faster off the breeze, which is cool, but, it ain't light...

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1 hour ago, Parma said:

The light number will probably be half load in race configuration. Even so, their statement issued by the clueless twat in marketing that "To be specific, even the standard version of First 36 will fully plane in a moderate breeze." is pretty bold & encouraging.

Fixed ya

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Should be a good boat But  from my experience I suggest interested buyers wait a period before buying one to allow Seascape time to sort out the boat. It's a lot more complex than the 27 and my early 27 has many problems and significant issues. Not all these have not been sorted 6 months after delivery including a major water leak.. Let alone any repayment for undelivered items or compensation for delivering a faulty boat.  I should not have bought one of the early ones and really regret being a first mover. Dumb move. Wait. 

First 27 is a great sailboat in principle though... 

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14 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Fixed ya

that clueless twat would be me, current CTO at Seascape. If this boat performs as planned it will be team effort & success but if the boat will under deliver or fail in whatever other way, there will be my balls hanging from the flagpole at the entrance to the yard.
 

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10 minutes ago, Kristian Seascape said:

that clueless twat would be me, current CTO at Seascape. If this boat performs as planned it will be team effort & success but if the boat will under deliver or fail in whatever other way, there will be my balls hanging from the flagpole at the entrance to the yard.
 

Well let's hope it all turns out nicely then.

Built to a quality not present in some other new bendys in threads around here while still down to design weight.

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7 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

that clueless twat would be me, current CTO at Seascape. If this boat performs as planned it will be team effort & success but if the boat will under deliver or fail in whatever other way, there will be my balls hanging from the flagpole at the entrance to the yard.
 

IF ???  And I would point out, if it's going to be your balls hanging from the flagpole, Kristian, well, it would seem you don't have much to lose then. 

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The seascape has a lot more sail area, more draft, more beam, and less ballast than the 10 year old (now) sunfast 3600. So, a more aggressive boat it seems - and definitely a cruisier interior as well. But just to keep it honest, tossed in the Pogo 36 specs as well..

Sunfast 3600:

Length overall: 11.25 m / 36'11"
Hull length: 10.8 m / 35'5"
Hull Beam: 3.55 m / 11'8"
Displacement: 4950 kg / 10913 Lbs
Standard keel draught : 2.13 m / 6'12"
Ballast: 2000 kg / 4409 lb
Upwind sail area: 69.8 m² / 751 ft²
Downwind sail area: 136.8 m² / 1473 ft²

Seascape 36:

Hull length: 11,00 m / 36’ 1”
Beam: 3,80 m / 12’ 6”
Preliminary displacement (MLC): 4800 kg / 10580 lbs
Draft standard keel: 2,25 m / 7’ 4,6”
Ballast: 1550 kg / 3420 lbs
Upwind sail area: 80 m2 / 860 sq. ft
Downwind sail area: 180 m2 / 1930 sq. ft
Retail recommended ex-works price: EUR 198.000 ex VAT

Pogo 36:

LOA: 35.63 ft / 10.86 m
LWL: 35.63 ft / 10.86 m
Beam: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Draft (max): 9.68 ft / 2.95 m
Draft (min): 3.87 ft / 1.18 m
Displacement: 8,377 lb / 3,800 kg
Ballast: 2,400 lb / 1,089 kg
S.A. (reported): 796.00 ft2 / 73.95 m2

3600:

b8734c935cdf8c07caa57cf3f58ae58c.jpg

Seascape:

Interiorlayout2-4000x2199.jpg

Pogo 36:
Pogo-36-interior.2706.jpg

 

 

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There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).

 

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7 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).

 

I’m quite looking forward to the boat launching. I’d also forgotten about the possibility of a SE version which sounds like it will carry a carbon rig and 2.55m keel from what you say. Will that keel be a lead fin? From my brief experience working with and sailing a 24se I was very impressed with how the interior laid out and finished and wondered if there would be liners for the deck and hull inside. Between me and my friend we specced a 3600 for short handed offshore racing which included a carbon mast, carbon boom, carbon floorboards, carbon washboard, lithium battery, removed the saloon table leaves (less to get broken and save weight but table top remained a table on irc), lighter weight upholstery (but more comfortable) and all factory pre wiring removed and a simpler system created from scratch. I can imagine a F36se with a similar spec to perform very well. 

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9 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

There are some valid points being said in these  posts. Like why could 40y.o. design be lighter that modern designs? Answer is simple, because people want to have bigger (wider)  boats within the same length  and that they (= mainstream buyers / dealers) want to have way more junk inside their boats. These are not stripped out boats like X-99 or as you said, Express 37, but it is expected to have all sorts of modern features and comfort that just keep on adding weight. Like wood inside with floorboards that are stiff, so you have to go 18mm thick (~140kg + 60 for floorboards - and we are minimalistic with wood). And to have kerrock surface on kitchen and nav module (+40kg). And that you must not see the fibers, so all surfaces are either faired or covered with liners (+120kg). And to have hot water, cold water, heating, air condition, extra batteries to keep your fridge working and the list of options  is just starting... did I mention teak in the cockpit? Toss in another 80kg. And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).
For these reasons I was pushing to have a light and efficient composite structure to limit the damage of the excessive options and to have a good base for the lighter/more racy version that will follow under Seascape Edition once we get comfortable with 36 production tact. 

Pogo 36 is by all means a great boat and a solid benchmark but as much as I love it, it will not appeal the traditional Beneteau customer, who wants more of the things mentioned above. However, when comparing weight one needs to be aware of different weight configurations.  Pogo with 3,8t of light displacement is a benchmark, however it comes with 3m deep keel and carbon mast. If you take Pogo with 2.1m fixed keel and alu rig in order to compare it to our 2.2keel and alu mast, the numbers are much closer.  Or if we take our carbon rig  and 2,55 keel, then the difference is again much closer.

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).

 

Does the weight gain of modern boats also have to do with modern regulations and safety certifications? I remember when X-Yachts launched the XP33 many people were asking why it was so much heavier than the X-99, although design and construction techniques had advanced considerably. They commented that with similar scantlings to the X-99 they would not get the new boats ISO certified.

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On 8/27/2021 at 5:10 AM, Qingdaosog said:

For the sake of the early owners of the First 36 I really hope lessons have been learnt from the introduction of the First 27 to the market.  Please get it really sorted including accurate assembly instructions and a manifest of all the parts before sending an edition to a customer's appointed Beneteau agent. 

Have your issues been properly resolved? 

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5 hours ago, neuronz said:

Does the weight gain of modern boats also have to do with modern regulations and safety certifications? I remember when X-Yachts launched the XP33 many people were asking why it was so much heavier than the X-99, although design and construction techniques had advanced considerably. They commented that with similar scantlings to the X-99 they would not get the new boats ISO certified.

it is a question worth asking. I don't think anyone would describe the 40yo express 37 as a stripped out racer. in fact, its not even considered an ultra-light.

IMGP1934-1024x680.jpg

 

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I'm going to sympathise with Kristian in his key point. The market does demand a lot of shit gets added to boats of this type that don't do them any favours.

I don't think you have the option to not put it in if you want to sell any kind of volume. It has no place in a boat that aspires to plane...

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35 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

I'm going to sympathise with Kristian in his key point. The market does demand a lot of shit gets added to boats of this type that don't do them any favours.

I don't think you have the option to not put it in if you want to sell any kind of volume. It has no place in a boat that aspires to plane...

well. this boat is designed to carry some sail. SA/D = 29 up, 65 down - seems kind of nuts really. Not sure how that will square with the shorthanded goal in a windy venue.

but I agree. Kristian identified quite a few places to save some weight - like 80lbs just for countertops seems kind of nuts. (perhaps this is where Seascape might depart from the B-boat on an SE version).

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35 minutes ago, floater said:

well. this boat is designed to carry some sail. SA/D = 29 up, 65 down - seems kind of nuts really. Not sure how that will square with the shorthanded goal in a windy venue.

but I agree. Kristian identified quite a few places to save some weight - like 80lbs just for countertops seems kind of nuts. (perhaps this is where Seascape might depart from the B-boat on an SE version).

Thank you Kristian!

Many people on this forum are probably not the target customer.

From my perspective the sail area is conservative;) You can always put a reef and a smaller jib.

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3 hours ago, floater said:

it is a question worth asking. I don't think anyone would describe the 40yo express 37 as a stripped out racer. in fact, its not even considered an ultra-light.

IMGP1934-1024x680.jpg

 

Well to start with, modern layouts with separated cabins already have two additional bulkheads next to the compagnionway.

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12 hours ago, JL92S said:

Between me and my friend we specced a 3600 for short handed offshore racing which included a carbon mast, carbon boom, carbon floorboards, carbon washboard, lithium battery, removed the saloon table leaves (less to get broken and save weight but table top remained a table on irc), lighter weight upholstery (but more comfortable) and all factory pre wiring removed and a simpler system created from scratch. I can imagine a F36se with a similar spec to perform very well. 

I'm sure you could do that with a F/SE 36 but I'm not sure why you would. A breathed-on SF3600 at 1.049 right at the front of IRC2 on the water seems a better proposition than this around the SF3300s with a bit of LWL upwind but otherwise slower and less fun (just so you can pretend you will cruise).

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20 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Story of Beneteau - Seascape: pre Feb2021, Beneteau owns majority share of Seascape. Post Feb 2021 - Beneteau still keeps a share but Seascape is having majority (in case of any legal troubles, BNT can say it is them, not us). It means we can do an autonomous decision even if BNT does not agree with it. However this is not the smartest thing to do, so this is not to be used too often.
From the market perspective, we develop and build the boats. As it is not part of the Beneteau production system and this boat was never intended to be high volume production boat,  we can build it more or less in the same way Pogo is building its boats.
Beneteau offers support and consulting (purchase system, engineering standards, etc.) and sell them through Beneteau Dealers Network.  Beneteau Dealers are taking care of the aftersales (at least for now).

 

Holy sh*t

Are you saying that Bénéteau S.A. is not your major shareholder -and for all intents and purposes- the parent company of Seascape d.o.o. any longer? It was communicated to be your 60% shareholder on 9 July 2018.

So all down payments and essentially also all quality and most importantly all liability falls back on you? Not a billion USD market cap conglomerate any longer?

When has this apparent change of ownership taken place? And when was it communicated?

Asking for a friend.

Who has shares.

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20 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Holy sh*t

Are you saying that Bénéteau S.A. is not your major shareholder -and for all intents and purposes- the parent company of Seascape d.o.o. any longer? It was communicated to be your 60% shareholder on 9 July 2018.

So all down payments and essentially also all quality and most importantly all liability falls back on you? Not a billion USD market cap conglomerate any longer?

When has this apparent change of ownership taken place? And when was it communicated?

Asking for a friend.

Who has shares.

Come on man, if you ask these kinds of hard questions we won't have any participation from folks connected to the factories or designers. 

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Those ballast specs are pretty light.  Lighter than the 36.7 which is a pretty tender boat and needs rail meat.

The stability index on the 36.7 is a problem - doesn’t qualify for many events. 

This new boat doesn’t have a carbon stick, does it?  Or water ballast?  So the hull form is enough to get it above the magic stability index numbers?  Or is this just an inshore racer?

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22 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

And yes, 90% of Beneteau Firsts 36.7 was sold with steering wheels, so the option of a tiller is out and two wheels are in (add another 60kg).

Well a tiller wasn’t an option in the US, ever.  So your market research on that is badly flawed.  Give me a simple tiller and minus the 60kg right there.  Can I have a single rudder too?  And can you put the 100kg of the 140kg or whatever we just pulled out of the stern into the keel?  And yes, I am absolutely a very credible sales prospect.

J/105s - the most sought after boats are the ones with tillers.

By all means let buyers cruisy them up with options.  But don’t force everyone to the lowest common denominator.

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12 hours ago, Dacron said:

The stability index on the 36.7 is a problem - doesn’t qualify for many events. 

Which events? Around here STIX 32+ / RCD A is a ticket to almost anything.

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First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

Few things to wrap up:

- customers are buying our boats from Beneteau ( i.e. its sales network) with all benefits and warranty services coming from this setup. Relations between SSC and BNT has no effect on end customer.

- market research was relying on many things including historic sales information regarding diff. options. If you sell majority of boats without certain option, this was not included in final configuration. Sorry, but more than 90% of 36.7 were sold without so we are keeping the tiller option for Seascape Edition, where there will be no wheels.

- as the topic is surfacing in this thread, I feel I should give some comments. The boat that was sent to John in China is very unfortunate as we sent second boat to a remote location . We had our share of mistakes which we do not hide from and they were amply compounded by a dealer who could not support the customer as he deserved. We wanted to send the factory team to CHN as we could solve all in few days, but could not enter due to covid restrictions so we were again relying only of the local representative. Third boat had mainly the same issues but came to an experienced dealer who did not even bothered informing us. We are discussing how to compensate customer but as said, it is part of the BNT warranty and aftersales system.

On a good side, today we laid down first layers for hull #2....

 

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4 minutes ago, Kristian Seascape said:

First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

Few things to wrap up:

- customers are buying our boats from Beneteau ( i.e. its sales network) with all benefits and warranty services coming from this setup. Relations between SSC and BNT has no effect on end customer.

- market research was relying on many things including historic sales information regarding diff. options. If you sell majority of boats without certain option, this was not included in final configuration. Sorry, but more than 90% of 36.7 were sold without so we are keeping the tiller option for Seascape Edition, where there will be no wheels.

- as the topic is surfacing in this thread, I feel I should give some comments. The boat that was sent to John in China is very unfortunate as we sent second boat to a remote location . We had our share of mistakes which we do not hide from and they were amply compounded by a dealer who could not support the customer as he deserved. We wanted to send the factory team to CHN as we could solve all in few days, but could not enter due to covid restrictions so we were again relying only of the local representative. Third boat had mainly the same issues but came to an experienced dealer who did not even bothered informing us. We are discussing how to compensate customer but as said, it is part of the BNT warranty and aftersales system.

On a good side, today we laid down first layers for hull #2....

 

Thanks for opening up on this Kristian, it helps to understand. 

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21 hours ago, nogetwe said:

Thank you Kristian!

Many people on this forum are probably not the target customer.

From my perspective the sail area is conservative;) You can always put a reef and a smaller jib.

and off the wind? I guess the rig and sail plan remain something of a mystery. 

also - very cool Kristian hinted at the possibility of tillers. of course, it does look like more of a Beneteau with those wheels. An interesting boat for sure.

F36-Render2-scaled.jpg

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4 hours ago, Snowden said:

Which events? Around here STIX 32+ / RCD A is a ticket to almost anything.

Newport to Bermuda.
Transpac.  

Both require Capsize screen of 115 minimum.  Unmodified deep keel 36.7 is around 112.

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6 minutes ago, Dacron said:

Newport to Bermuda.
Transpac.  

Both require Capsize screen of 115 minimum.  Unmodified deep keel 36.7 is around 112.

This is right, also I think Marion to Bermuda and possibly (not sure about this) Halifax. I had a talk with Farr Yacht Design and, to get ready for the cancelled N2B race, and spent a lot of time and money designing and installing a "shoe" or plate for the bottom of my 36.7 keel to get it to the 115 number. The 36.7 is a pretty tender boat. That's once thing as a racer, but if you and your girl or family want to go for a cruise, it's less than ideal. Now, someone owns a much less tender 36.7. I traded to a J/111. That said, I do like this First 36 design. 

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19 hours ago, danstanford said:

Come on man, if you ask these kinds of hard questions we won't have any participation from folks connected to the factories or designers. 

Come on man, if *someone* doesn't ask these hard questions, *someone* might end up with 250 k less and no boat. It has happened before. From the top of my hat: RM, Archambault, Bente, just in the last couple of years.

And this case I found most interesting. Everyone is under the impression that it's a Beneteau yacht while it is not. It is rather what Alpina is to BMW, a somehow associated design studio.

But don't come knocking if something's gone awry. Nope, talk to the dealers, talk to the Seascape guys.

I suppose you don't see the irony in your earlier comment?

'Very unsatifying I am sure. Beneteau should be doing something about this.'

No, they won't. And from what Kristian said, I suppose they don't have to.

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5 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

I take that as a yes. Especially the last sentence.

I did not find any press release or ad-hoc statement that hints to the restructuring of Seascape ownership, which was -per the 2018 press release- ' in scope' (of financial reporting, I believe).

Yes, your brand is no longer listed among the Beneteau brands like Delphia or now Starfisher, so 'technically', it is somewhat visible if you look for it.

But I think this is more than just a marketing or production issue. It goes way deeper to questions of liquidity, final liability and risk management.

Don't get me wrong, you will have success with this boat. It is a good design. It won't beat a JPK 10.80 under IRC, for sure, but it will be much more fun and comfy.

And better looking.

Still, the circumstances under which you put this project together should raise an eyebrow with anyone who has a quarter of a million USD (mas / menos) to invest.

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43 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Come on man, if *someone* doesn't ask these hard questions, *someone* might end up with 250 k less and no boat. It has happened before. From the top of my hat: RM, Archambault, Bente, just in the last couple of years.

And this case I found most interesting. Everyone is under the impression that it's a Beneteau yacht while it is not. It is rather what Alpina is to BMW, a somehow associated design studio.

But don't come knocking if something's gone awry. Nope, talk to the dealers, talk to the Seascape guys.

I suppose you don't see the irony in your earlier comment?

'Very unsatifying I am sure. Beneteau should be doing something about this.'

No, they won't. And from what Kristian said, I suppose they don't have to.

No irony involved. Kristian is not an official spokesperson nor could he respond for either company I am sure. The people to yell at may be hard to find but if you want this little conduit you cannot beat him up or demand answers or his bosses will shut it down. 

I stand by my original statement that Beneteau should be listening and doing something about it and Kristian's response indicated he was hearing the issue. 

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10 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Point of order. You don't invest in a yacht. You piss away on a new toy. Nothing wrong with that either.

Carry on.

True.

You'd be pissed though if your toy keeps on breaking constantly with no one around to fix it so that you can keep on pissing away.

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20 minutes ago, danstanford said:

No irony involved. Kristian is not an official spokesperson nor could he respond for either company I am sure. The people to yell at may be hard to find but if you want this little conduit you cannot beat him up or demand answers or his bosses will shut it down. 

I stand by my original statement that Beneteau should be listening and doing something about it and Kristian's response indicated he was hearing the issue. 

Er, what? Again, as I see it, Beneteau will not do anything for you beyond giving you a prospectus or a dealer's phone number.

 

I applaud Kristian's honesty and willingness to share here, it is more than many others have done.

But if you come here, you know that it is not always a hot stone massage.

Kristian is CTO, founder and (at least was) major shareholder of this company.

I think he's tough enough to not consider these questions as 'beating him up' or being simply 'shut down'.

 

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7 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

First of all, I should have know by now to keep my mouth shut and talk about technical things, leaving corporate communication to others. Lessons learned (some proper dressing down included).

Thanks for participating here Kristian. This comment makes it seem like Beneteau is reading these threads, and someone important enough to 'dress down' a corporate partner. If this is so, are they just choosing to ignore @Qingdaosog's issues with his 27?

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1 hour ago, Matagi said:

Er, what? Again, as I see it, Beneteau will not do anything for you beyond giving you a prospectus or a dealer's phone number.

EU rules, who sells it is responsible to client. Not who makes it.

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20 minutes ago, LeoV said:

EU rules, who sells it is responsible to client. Not who makes it.

I don't think so, no.

In the EU 27, product liability laws are national laws. They base on a EU directive that was mandatory to be put into national law.

You could probably base a whole career in law on this, but the pivotal point is: No. Not who sells it is liable per se, more often it is the original producer. E.g. in German law, the producer is liable and only exempt in very specific circumstances. Even a contract between original producer and final customer is not necessary for having a claim against the producer.

Think of it this way: You buy a somehow contaminated beer from company A at store chain B and get very sick. Your claim is still not against B but against A (unless A can prove they warned B in time not to bring the product into circulation).

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Genlemen, no worries. Am old enough to have a good margin above snowflake generation so I can take some and come back for more

- Leo gave you a good example. These boats are sold under First brand and Beneteau is making sure the customer gets all the safety nets needed regarding the investment, aftersales, etc. This is the same for all boats, from F14 to F36.

- as said before, John's 27 is a very unfortunate case. I am not proud about it and we are as always 100% at disposal to BNT warranty network which ends with CHN dealer who sold the boat to John. As said before, we offered a team to go there and fix the obvious issues, but we were not allowed to enter China. Other few cases were solved with minimum downtime and way less than a gallon of sikaflex...
-I do not mind answering your questions, but I would like way more if we can discuss technical side of the boat(s). For example... when asked Sam Manuard "what do you liek the most about this boat" he said "would it be too arrogant if I say hull shape?" Weknow him for years, actually we first met a day before his start of minitrasant in 2003 when we asked him if we can build two  of his minitrasat prototypes. Latter he admitted "there were two guy asking for the boat... and I thought nothing will come out of that"... Two minitransats and roughly 1.100 delivered boats latter, we grew together with mutual respect and it is really fun to work with Sam. Adding Pure Design & Engineering with structural engineering to the Team, it is really nice to work on the boat that is exciting - not complicated, but detailed. You add fibres and details where needed and you have super simple and light panels where you don't need it.

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Yep. I dealt with China, and it is .... complicated. Sold to US too, and all I can say, complicated too. 

16 minutes ago, Matagi said:

I don't think so, no.

To make the discussion short, in 99,9% of the cases it is right. Unless, like the Dieselgate, fraud is in play you can try a class action to producer.

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14 minutes ago, LeoV said:

Yep. I dealt with China, and it is .... complicated. Sold to US too, and all I can say, complicated too. 

To make the discussion short, in 99,9% of the cases it is right. Unless, like the Dieselgate, fraud is in play you can try a class action to producer.

No. I think you're confusing law and reality here.

In reality 99,9% of cases end in settlement way before they ever reach a court. Most times, neither party has the will to either spend money (customer) or have their reputation tarnished or -worse- secrets exposed (producer).

But let's not turn this into SA law school (any more than I have), ok? It's complicated. I agree with that.

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I’m sure there are better forums for detailed discussions of EU and Commercial Law than this one.

All of this will come down to performance on the water / handicap. Seascape and Beneteau have reputations to protect so lets presume that this is their strongest card for the competitive double handed market.

I’m off to Düsseldorf with my sailing partner to touch and feel the 36 in January. I’ll report back!

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46 minutes ago, Matagi said:

No. I think you're confusing law and reality here.

You brought the discussion up, not me.
No, in all EU countries the seller (or trader in EU terms) is the one responsible, that is the  basis. Some EU countries have laws on top of that to go directly to manufacturer.
But first you go to trader. So BNT is involved and can not turn you away with complaints. For EU customers that is.

Back to technical discussions. The return of the racer cruiser...
 

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On 11/6/2021 at 2:45 AM, Qingdaosog said:

Should be a good boat But  from my experience I suggest interested buyers wait a period before buying one to allow Seascape time to sort out the boat. It's a lot more complex than the 27 and my early 27 has many problems and significant issues. Not all these have not been sorted 6 months after delivery including a major water leak.. Let alone any repayment for undelivered items or compensation for delivering a faulty boat.  I should not have bought one of the early ones and really regret being a first mover. Dumb move. Wait. 

First 27 is a great sailboat in principle though... 

prob good to live in Europe at first :lol:

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4 hours ago, troll99 said:

prob good to live in Europe at first :lol:

I would.not have considered the First 27 if it was still Seascape for that reason. However with Beneteau's long term presence in Asia and the personal reccomendation of the boat by Beneteau's Asia customer service manager who I have known for 15 years or so,  I mistakenly assumed I would be in the hands of a slick. international support infrastructure. How wrong I was. Of course.Covid won't have helped . But stupid stuff happened like a toilet pump that was broken and glued together fitted as new and standing rigging that wouldn't fit and took a month to fix.  That's hard to understand. That's not a Covid issue. 

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@Kristian Seascape Very interested in whether the SE version will be optimised for IRC or any other rating system? Given the additional weight you mention above, and the lower ballast, it seems unlikely that it'll take on the 3600 / JPK in IRC, but there's a place in the market for something seriously quick off the wind that wins races when the wind's in the right direction. 

Incidentally, I loved the F24 I too for a sea trial in 2019, but I would never buy I boat I can't race, and IRC is everything over here so whatever you buy really has to rate... which is why I now have a 3600. When I get tired of racing I've promised myself a 24, fabulous boat!

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