New Beneteau First 36

[George Dewey 119]

14 minutes ago, JL92S said:

I get the feeling that most people on this thread dislike the boat, the people who have designed it and the people making it

IDK, I like it so far. There are probably people who both like and dislike it for whatever reason.

[Slick470 240]

I like it so far as well, and I appreciate Kristian jumping into the conversation. 

Part of me wants something somewhere in between the First version and the Seascape version though. I like to keep things complicated... not in the market for a new boat anytime soon though. 

[J11J 0]

26 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

I like it so far as well, and I appreciate Kristian jumping into the conversation. 

Part of me wants something somewhere in between the First version and the Seascape version though. I like to keep things complicated... not in the market for a new boat anytime soon though. 

They did this with the 27; You can put the cabon SE rig on the standard F27. Hopefully if the SE version of the 36 materializes, they will maintain some interchangeability.  Add one more to the like column. Solid specs so far and seems to be at the lower range of the price spectrum for its class.

[Parma 430]

1 hour ago, JL92S said:

I get the feeling that most people on this thread dislike the boat, the people who have designed it and the people making it

Competitors.

They sound scared.

[inneedofadvice 235]

21 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Well, while MR. is looking at the steering position and sail controls, MRS. goes straight down to galley and toilet. If these two areas do not pass the  MRS. test, then boat becomes like a stripper club... you can watch, but you can't take home...

 

The fact that you feel comfortable saying this in a public forum while representing Beneteau and Seascape is fucked up. 

[Swimsailor 1,683]

40 minutes ago, J11J said:

You can put the cabon SE rig on the standard F27.

Beneteau quoted this to me as a $10k option.

[Kristian Seascape 224]

10 hours ago, inneedofadvice said:

The fact that you feel comfortable saying this in a public forum while representing Beneteau and Seascape is fucked up. 

Really? And I thought it is sincere, go figure...
However, for a polished corporate talk, you have to visit Beneteau web page and access information there not expecting to find it on Sailing Anarchy forum.
I do not represent anybody, just doing these comments for fun in my free time for those who are interested in this quite exciting boat.

Regarding the OSR categories: boat is compliant regarding the toerails, stanchions, pulpit, etc. STIX, AWS and AGZ values should be there by design, but they must be checked and validated with weighted finished boat before I write them down in public.

Rigs and keels are designed for worst load case and interchangeable. Meaning carbon rig and ALU rig takes same geometry and same mast foot arrangement. Also the 3 planned keels ([email protected], standard and performance) will have same hull footprint and bolting pattern, while keel structure is designed for max load (stability & grounding) for performance keel.

Since you are mentioning the price of mast in USD, I think it is about right. Price of rig (exchange from EUR to USD)  + transport + dealer's margin on the option ...
 

[nigel 4]

Thanks for contributing so much to the conversation, Kristian. This is exactly the boat I've been looking for - fast and fun for me, with the right set of comforts and amenities for the family. Plus single handed-optimized do I can have my fun with the family onboard. I hope to lock in one of the first deliveries to North America. 

What is the headroom?

[Kristian Seascape 224]

2 hours ago, nigel said:

What is the headroom?

approx ¸1.88 at the entrance, 1.85 at the start of the front cabin, 1.65 at the aft cabin. Meters of course...

[George Dewey 119]

On 11/11/2021 at 1:09 PM, inneedofadvice said:

The fact that you feel comfortable saying this in a public forum while representing Beneteau and Seascape is fucked up. 

I thought this is well understood by everyone who makes, sells and buys boats. 

[George Dewey 119]

13 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Regarding the OSR categories: boat is compliant regarding the toerails, stanchions, pulpit, etc. STIX, AWS and AGZ values should be there by design, but they must be checked and validated with weighted finished boat before I write them down in public.

... Also the 3 planned keels ([email protected], standard and performance) will have same hull footprint and bolting pattern

Good deal on the offshore stuff.

Three keels? IIRC, the Bene 36.7 had two keels, shoal and standard. I'm told that lots of guys with the shoal keel in Annapolis were getting their asses handed to them, so they went out and bought the standard keel. I don't know if there will ever by a OD class for this boat, but three keels sure won't help that happen.  

[inneedofadvice 235]

28 minutes ago, George Dewey said:

I thought this is well understood by everyone who makes, sells and buys boats. 

Not sure what women you're hanging out with, but to most of the women I sail with, his generalization would be insulting. Maybe it was different in 1975

[Kristian Seascape 224]

At the moment there is only one keel design,  standard cast iron keel with cast iron bulb at 2.25m. There is strong initiative to have performance version with lead bulb at 2.55m (and -250kg) . We are keen to do it once the base options get sorted as this keel will - with carbon mast - reduce weight of the boat for another 300kg. 

As soon as we came out with specs there was some initiative to have a shallow draft version  for shallow venues. That could be easily done but is not really in the decision pipeline yet. If we get enough demand from certain customers, then we might consider it.
 

 

[Swimsailor 1,683]

42 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

Not sure what women you're hanging out with, but to most of the women I sail with, his generalization would be insulting. Maybe it was different in 1975

I don't know mate, my wife is pretty progressive and a damn adventurous sailor and she insists our next boat have a decent head and a galley to make coffee in the morning.  Hanging her ass over the side to pee and using the Jetboil for instant coffee are getting old.

[danstanford 130]

42 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

Not sure what women you're hanging out with, but to most of the women I sail with, his generalization would be insulting. Maybe it was different in 1975

Sure there are women for whom this would be insulting and some who are not concerned about the head. If we stepped back from the woke elements of this, I would guess the VAST majority of the women participating in the decision to purchase a boat like this would make these elements a big part of the decision. 

[George Dewey 119]

20 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Sure there are women for whom this would be insulting and some who are not concerned about the head. If we stepped back from the woke elements of this, I would guess the VAST majority of the women participating in the decision to purchase a boat like this would make these elements a big part of the decision. 

I think they clearly would and do, and I don't understand why someone should think that's a problem. Especially if you consider that most people shelling out ~ $300k US are not kids. While the 20 something young women I know are happy to rough it with the guys, many women I know in their mid 40's on up are not shy about being more concerned about the accommodations below. And while the men may be more focused on performance, some of us like our comforts too. We may not admit it as much, but the women do. 

Maybe what's sexist is disregarding the concerns of women while catering to just what the men want. Especially when it's a family budget.

[Dacron 20]

55 minutes ago, Kristian Seascape said:

At the moment there is only one keel design,  standard cast iron keel with cast iron bulb at 2.25m. There is strong initiative to have performance version with lead bulb at 2.55m (and -250kg) . We are keen to do it once the base options get sorted as this keel will - with carbon mast - reduce weight of the boat for another 300kg. 

As soon as we came out with specs there was some initiative to have a shallow draft version  for shallow venues. That could be easily done but is not really in the decision pipeline yet. If we get enough demand from certain customers, then we might consider 

1 hour ago, George Dewey said:

Good deal on the offshore stuff.

Three keels? IIRC, the Bene 36.7 had two keels, shoal and standard. I'm told that lots of guys with the shoal keel in Annapolis were getting their asses handed to them, so they went out and bought the standard keel. I don't know if there will ever by a OD class for this boat, but three keels sure won't help that happen.  

+1

As in, I agree with you George.  
 

Not as in we need x +1 keels.  Three is already too many.

[George Dewey 119]

57 minutes ago, Kristian Seascape said:

At the moment there is only one keel design,  standard cast iron keel with cast iron bulb at 2.25m. There is strong initiative to have performance version with lead bulb at 2.55m (and -250kg) . We are keen to do it once the base options get sorted as this keel will - with carbon mast - reduce weight of the boat for another 300kg.

@Kristian Seascape The J/111 has an interesting (to me at least) keel design. It's basically a hollow shaft with the lead (I think its lead) at the bottom. When I saw that I realized that a solid cast iron or lead keel has a lot of weight within a short distance of the hull, and that weight is less effective than the weight lower. So it seemed clever to focus all the weight down low. Have you guys looked at that design?

[JohnMB 559]

26 minutes ago, danstanford said:

Sure there are women for whom this would be insulting and some who are not concerned about the head. If we stepped back from the woke elements of this, I would guess the VAST majority of the women participating in the decision to purchase a boat like this would make these elements a big part of the decision. 

Woke or not has nothing to do with this, its about selling boats.

The question is whether the statement is more likely to gain or lose a sale. Pissing off a potential customer (however woke they may be) is generally not a good strategy. There are several car salesmen near me that have lost a sale because they made dumb assumptions about who they were selling to, and what features would matter most to whom, when my wife and I were out looking for a new car.

Frankly the person who should care most about the head is whoever has to fix it when(not if) it gets blocked. I'm lucky, no head on my boat so nothing to fix.

[Parma 430]

Jesus, some of you fuckers appear willing to do, say or imply just about anything in order to bash the competition.

[Kristian Seascape 224]

is this still Sailing Anarchy Forum? Because it surely looks woke mob & snowflake generation infiltrated this once safe heaven. Fortunately for me, I am not selling anything, just giving some tech. comments about the boat... and if by doing this, I manage to offend a woke person (which by the way is not really a challenge, no?), I'll take that as a bonus.
Now the keels...
from the start we were looking into two options, standard & simple (= good enough but cheaper) keel and something more hi tech (advanced & expensive). This keel should have a better cast (SG400-15 spheroidal graphite cast iron with Ts ultimate =  400MPa compared to standard GG20 with Ts = 200MPa). This would allow for thinner section and with lead bulb. However, when theory meets the real world, the tooling for the keel was ridiculously expensive  (~ 70k€ ) and production costs for each keel were higher than a carbon mast... and about 6x the price of a standard keel. With this clearly off the table, Sam redesigned the standard keel to be "as efficient as possible" with long bulb and low cross section. What we saved in production costs here, we invested in the GRP structure, for example making hull with Corecell instead of balsa, saving a good 200kg from the hull shell alone. Add all structural elements in GRP instead of wood, we get the complete GRP hull with structure, sitting at slightly under 1000kg.
Once we get the standard 36 up to production speed, we have plans to look into the performance keel again, but with a bit different approach, using combination of cast iron, lead and GRP hydro shell. I think this will be the right step as it will bring the performance and weight reduction for lower price than initial study suggested.

[Raz'r 5,159]

10 hours ago, inneedofadvice said:

Not sure what women you're hanging out with, but to most of the women I sail with, his generalization would be insulting. Maybe it was different in 1975

If you want a race boat, buy one. It’s a beneteau. They have heads. I’m pretty happy with my racer cruiser. It has a water maker, nice head and galley. Stripped out racer it ain’t. And the wife loves it.

[European Bloke 861]

I'd be much more inclined to give this boat a proper look after Kristian turned up on this thread than before.

That said I'm not in the market for a new out the box 36 cruiser racer.

[Kristian Seascape 224]

1 hour ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

Sorry if that's too "woke" for you.

Not to woke, it is great example of wokeness, I might use it sometimes.
However, compared to striking marine mammals, I am much more concerned by the amount of waste a modern boat building creates. After infusing 60m2 hull you are left with 60m2 of resin saturated peelply, 60m2 of resin saturated flow mesh, 180m2 of vacuum bagging film, roughly 200m of resin flow and vacuum tubing... and all that completely non recyclable and 100% plastic. But that is not something we are talking very often nor are people interested in..

[danstanford 130]

2 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Not to woke, it is great example of wokeness, I might use it sometimes.
However, compared to striking marine mammals, I am much more concerned by the amount of waste a modern boat building creates. After infusing 60m2 hull you are left with 60m2 of resin saturated peelply, 60m2 of resin saturated flow mesh, 180m2 of vacuum bagging film, roughly 200m of resin flow and vacuum tubing... and all that completely non recyclable and 100% plastic. But that is not something we are talking very often nor are people interested in..

Wow, I assumed that the bag, tubing, and other pieces (not peel ply) would be cleaned and  re-used. IS the principle advantage of infusion that you use less resin and therefore lower boat cost and weight? 

[bridhb 905]

6 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

i

To continnue the bulb shape question.  What is the significant advantage of a "T" keel over a "L" keel?  I am guessing smaller diameter of the "bulb" that is stretched out and easier structural attatchment?  I would be having crabs for dinner everytime this thing left the dock around here.

[Kristian Seascape 224]

1 hour ago, bridhb said:

To continnue the bulb shape question.  What is the significant advantage of a "T" keel over a "L" keel?  I am guessing smaller diameter of the "bulb" that is stretched out and easier structural attatchment?  I would be having crabs for dinner everytime this thing left the dock around here.

Structural - this way bulb is balanced and can be longer with less diameter (less projected area), plus the fin can be narrower (= less projected area). This way you can use cast fin with lower drag. The obvious drawback is the potential to have lobsters for dinner ...

[El Borracho 2,611]

5 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

...  I am much more concerned by the amount of waste a modern boat building creates. After infusing 60m2 hull you are left with 60m2 of resin saturated peelply, 60m2 of resin saturated flow mesh, 180m2 of vacuum bagging film, roughly 200m of resin flow and vacuum tubing... and all that completely non recyclable and 100% plastic. But that is not something we are talking very often nor are people interested in..

I wholly agree...but...

As bad as it is, is it modern composite boat building roughly equivalent to all the slash, off-cuts, erosion, ecosystem damage from lumber harvesting? Compared to the slag, tailings, toxic runoff, air pollution, and environmental destruction from mining and metals production?

[nigel 4]

With the T-shape, how does one deal with kelp or crab trap ensnarement?

[bridhb 905]

1 hour ago, nigel said:

With the T-shape, how does one deal with kelp or crab trap ensnarement?

Carry a mask, snorkel, flippers and a wetsuit.

[Reference 117]

5 hours ago, bridhb said:

What is the significant advantage of a "T" keel over a "L" keel? 

Balance.  Keeps more of the weight centered.
 

perhaps this lets them move the keel further aft and play with mast position?

[floater 692]

10 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

That keel design could severely injure any marine mamal it might strike.

You should do an "L" shape keel to reduce mortality.

Sorry if that's too "woke" for you.

I generally approve of the design otherwise.

this has got to be one of the weirdest posts I've ever seen - anywhere. and on more than one level.

also, on the opposite tack, just want to say Kristian's posts here are truly some of the coolest I've ever seen on this site. direct insight from an expert in their field. its just great stuff. kudos.

finally. what's a mamal?

[slap 975]

7 minutes ago, floater said:

finally. what's a mamal?

 

[El Borracho 2,611]

1 hour ago, Reference said:

Balance.  Keeps more of the weight centered.
 

perhaps this lets them move the keel further aft and play with mast position?

Aft swept keels and trailing L bulbs also arise from the designer wanting keel hydrodynamic forces more forward than the mass center. The keel having two distinct purposes. 
 

Mammals? Did hit a sea lion hard once. They seemed quite upset. 

[Kristian Seascape 224]

19 hours ago, danstanford said:

Wow, I assumed that the bag, tubing, and other pieces (not peel ply) would be cleaned and  re-used. IS the principle advantage of infusion that you use less resin and therefore lower boat cost and weight? 

The advantage of resin infusion process (once done right):

- much better structural quality of GRP  as the panels have less weight by using less resin as the fibers are compacted and resin can fill only the remaining gaps. Good infusion process will take about 45% of fiber weight in resin (i.e. 1000g/m2 quadriaxial fiber will take about 450g of resin). Whereas hand layup 1:1 or even more if operator is sloppy.
- easier and better bonding of the cores, as you do that with the primary bond / process.
- repeatability as the process is less operator dependent.   Typical infusion done right can be within 2% of weight margin. Typical hand layup depends whether they won a football match, whether they lost it, did a worker had a fight with his or hers partner, etc...
- the last but not the least, working environment between infusion and hand layup is incomparable. You work with dry fibers, you can position and orient them properly and once done, resin is delivered to the hull through pipelines from closed container through the resin mixing and dosing apparatus. You have (almost) no exposure to resin. Your workplace is clean. Your tools are clean, you are clean.  Whereas with handlayup, you are manually impregnating every square meter, transferring curing resin into the boat, exposing the crew and surroundings to styrene. This means wearing full masks, tools are covered in resin, your hands are sticky, etc.

Obvious drawback is that you need trained crew, that you use more consumables that are unfortunately non reusable (ok, can be if you use silicone bagging, but that is another topic) which brings up the costs. 

KEELS & Marine life: during the race to Acores, I narrowly avoided collision with a whale. Sailing on a minitrasat prototype, doing solid 15 kts. He breached the surface  3 meters in front of me and I broached the boat. Whale circled back to see who is that idiot that woke him up and I had eye contact with it, while trying to get the boat back under the mast and not to fuckup the big kite, flogging in the wind. Hurting the whale with T keel was probably the last thing to worry about. A friend hit one on the same race and ripped out the canting keel hinges, nursing the boat the last 100nm to Acores with its keel lashed to the boat hanging on the purchases.
Long story short ... If you go to proper offshore race, you will take crew and equipment and you will be around 5.5+T with First 36. You plane at 15kts and hit the 30 ton humpback whale. I am quite sure, your main concern will not be about poor whale, but something much more primal...

[Kristian Seascape 224]

16 hours ago, nigel said:

With the T-shape, how does one deal with kelp or crab trap ensnarement?

when racing in France on Altantic coast, unless you are big fan of swimming in cold water, you learn really fast how to  back the boat and sail backwards, to clear fishing nets and kelp from the keel. Minis do that, Figaros do that, Class40 do that and IMOCA60 do that.

[neuronz 69]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:55 PM, George Dewey said:

@Kristian Seascape The J/111 has an interesting (to me at least) keel design. It's basically a hollow shaft with the lead (I think its lead) at the bottom. When I saw that I realized that a solid cast iron or lead keel has a lot of weight within a short distance of the hull, and that weight is less effective than the weight lower. So it seemed clever to focus all the weight down low. Have you guys looked at that design?

A fully optimized keel with a hollow fin would have the lower part of the fin filled with lead. The COG is almost the same as the bulb and it is basically free volume since filling it does not add drag. The filling level depends on the case. This would probably be too complex for a production setting, but bottom line is that you want to put some ballast in the fin so iron fin and lead bulb are a reasonable compromise for series production.

[Parma 430]

23 hours ago, floater said:

this has got to be one of the weirdest posts I've ever seen - anywhere. and on more than one level.

also, on the opposite tack, just want to say Kristian's posts here are truly some of the coolest I've ever seen on this site. direct insight from an expert in their field. its just great stuff. kudos.

finally. what's a mamal?

That post constitutes the kitchen sink of crap the competition is throwing at this boat. The misogynistic bathroom is another.

[Crash 1,006]

On 11/12/2021 at 12:48 PM, George Dewey said:

I think they clearly would and do, and I don't understand why someone should think that's a problem. Especially if you consider that most people shelling out ~ $300k US are not kids. While the 20 something young women I know are happy to rough it with the guys, many women I know in their mid 40's on up are not shy about being more concerned about the accommodations below. And while the men may be more focused on performance, some of us like our comforts too. We may not admit it as much, but the women do. 

Maybe what's sexist is disregarding the concerns of women while catering to just what the men want. Especially when it's a family budget.

I've always tried to recruit as many women as I can to my crews.  Plus my wife and daughters crew for me as well.  I'm not sure it's too much to ask that they have a private place to pee, and don't need to dehydrate themselves, etc, etc, just to enjoy sailboat racing.  As I'm in no danger of being invited to helm at the next Cup races, I figure I'm not paying to big a penalty in not having a proper head for them.

[pep 0]

Thank you @Kristian Seascape ; I learn a lot and the bendy36 with the Seascape flavor seems to be a VERY nice addition to the landscape of boats for real (amateur) people who like racing!

[parey 0]

Merci Kristian, vos informations techniques sont passionnantes, vous nous permettez de comprendre sans être spécialistes les choix qui sont faits par votre équipe pour proposer un compromis course/croisière/prixraisonnable le plus juste..

[Kristian Seascape 224]

Lars did a short Q&A with Andraz...
https://no-frills-sailing.com/new-seascape-36-beneteau/

[fcfc 10]

3 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

They gonna' glue this down or glass it in?

Wait, gel coated, so glue? 

Probably glued.

But if they use a correct structural glue, it may be stronger than a secondary lamination. The only problem price level. 

[JL92S 426]

It will be glued.  I thing wrong with just glue, most performance boats are these days

[shaggybaxter 2,709]

On 11/14/2021 at 6:24 PM, Kristian Seascape said:

If you go to proper offshore race, you will take crew and equipment and you will be around 5.5+T with First 36. You plane at 15kts and hit the 30 ton humpback whale. I am quite sure, your main concern will not be about poor whale, but something much more primal...

We were planing along at 11-12 knots when we hit a whale. Interesting experience. 

Thanks for taking the time to discuss the tech bits, its interesting and brings colour to the boat. 

 

 

 

[Not for nothing 479]

On 8/25/2021 at 12:32 AM, BayRacer said:

From marketing copy, looks like a lot of cooks.

8 guys to drill one hole?wtf

[danstanford 130]

I loved seeing the ambition shown in the targeting present in the charts of competitive boats. I wonder how common this is? 

[Matagi 1,443]

4 hours ago, fcfc said:

 

But if they use a correct structural glue, it may be stronger than a secondary lamination.

Only if you really screw up the upper laminate in the first place.

Just glue is a problem waiting to happen, in my view.

It won't happen in every hull number, but you enter a lottery here.

[Snowden 499]

18 minutes ago, Matagi said:

Only if you really screw up the upper laminate in the first place. Just glue is a problem waiting to happen, in my view. It won't happen in every hull number, but you enter a lottery here.

One would expect, given the parent company's history with keels & grids, that they take extra care in this area these days...

[Kristian Seascape 224]

9 minutes ago, Snowden said:

One would expect, given the parent company's history with keels & grids, that they take extra care in this area these days...

i have only a basic knowledge of structural composites, far from being an expert enough to decide on a sensitive topic like this. That's why we hired Pure Design & Engineering to make the call ... http://www.pde.co.nz/

[George Dewey 119]

4 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

8 guys to drill one hole?wtf

Just like a state job. Only thing missing is the "men at work" sign.

[Matagi 1,443]

53 minutes ago, Snowden said:

 the parent company's 

It's not the parent company. See up-thread, it is -as I read it- merely a shareholder now, with a large part of the shares, but not the majority.

But it's certainly a good move to call in specialists to design this delicate area.

 

[Crash 1,006]

We've been using structural adhesives in composite aircraft and other aerospace systems for years.  There is no question about the ability of structural adhesives to adequately bond a grid system to a hull.

That doesn't mean there aren't other questions that ought be asked.  But keel sump failures are not limited to only glued in liner boats.  And in many of the cases of grid liner keel sump failures, either damage was unreported or ignored.  Had that damage been reported and properly repaired, those boats might still be safely sailing. 

 

Some of the questions might be:

Does/can the manufacturer maintain the proper quality control when using adhesives to bond grid to hull?  As once its glued down, you can't really see "inside" it to determine if you have good bonding everywhere you want it.  This is particularly of interest when grid liners are being used not necessarily from a "best practice" standpoint, but instead from a "save on cost" standpoint.

Are owner's aware of the possibility of damage from a grounding (or similar event) may be in an area that cannot be easily visually examined? 

Does the manufacturer provide adequate information to the buying public and the marine industry (surveyors, boat yards, etc) on how to inspect, determine extent of, and repair damaged grid systems?

 

Like everything else with sailboats, everything is a compromise.  Trying to deliver a boat the performs well, meets customer needs and expectations, is reasonably priced, and is one you can make a reasonable profit on is a very challenging task.  I've owned a Beneteau with a grid liner system, I damaged that liner system (see old thread - Crash tries to sink the perfect compromise boat), and I made sure it got fully and properly repaired.  After it was repaired, I felt perfectly safe taking my family out sailing on the ocean with it.  When it came time to sell the boat, I felt perfectly comfortable disclosing both the damage, and the repairs, and feel confident I sold a safe and seaworthy boat.

 

[Snowden 499]

57 minutes ago, Matagi said:

It's not the parent company. See up-thread, it is -as I read it- merely a shareholder now, with a large part of the shares, but not the majority.

They are still putting their brand on the line. As Kristian said "it is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences"

[Matagi 1,443]

1 hour ago, Snowden said:

They are still putting their brand on the line. As Kristian said "it is no surprise that they have some very strict rules regarding the keel attachment due to the past experiences"

Yeah? How are the post-Rafiki Océanis keels designed? Laminated in or glued on? 

[Crash 1,006]

Well, to be fair, the keels are bolted on.  You mean how is the keel support structure constructed and installed.  You and I both know it’s a glued in grid/liner system.

[Matagi 1,443]

7 minutes ago, Crash said:

Well, to be fair, the keels are bolted on.  You mean how is the keel support structure constructed and installed.  You and I both know it’s a glued in grid/liner system.

Yes, exactly.

[Snowden 499]

1 hour ago, Matagi said:

Yeah? How are the post-Rafiki Océanis keels designed? Laminated in or glued on? 

I'm not sure how this turned into an argument but I think you would agree that there's quite a big difference between the relatively high aspect T keel of the 40.7 and the Oceanis range, as well as the loads & usage of those designs.

[Parma 430]

7 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I'm not sure how this turned into an argument but I think you would agree that there's quite a big difference between the relatively high aspect T keel of the 40.7 and the Oceanis range, as well as the loads & usage of those designs.

Do the 40.7 have a T-keel? I think maybe you're thinking of the First 40?

[floater 692]

5 hours ago, danstanford said:

I loved seeing the ambition shown in the targeting present in the charts of competitive boats. I wonder how common this is? 

who knew boat builders had to be good at ppt too. and as for the math, DW SA / Displacement vs. Interior Volume is a new one for me - although it is an interesting metric.

[Snowden 499]

19 minutes ago, Parma said:

Do the 40.7 have a T-keel? I think maybe you're thinking of the First 40?

I think you are right and I am mistaken. I had thought that the deep draught one was a T but a quick google shows it to be a sort of flared fin thing

[Matagi 1,443]

31 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I'm not sure how this turned into an argument but I think you would agree that there's quite a big difference between the relatively high aspect T keel of the 40.7 and the Oceanis range, as well as the loads & usage of those designs.

If you put your brand on the line, you put the whole range on the line. And if this was really a critical issue for B., they'd have done sth about it in any design since then. I think it is a very good move by SSC to have hired the NZ engineering company, but (to my knowledge), they are project-specific, not working for B. as a whole? 

That would speak volumes to me about the confidence in the in-house engineering dpt. of B.

Nono, that is not a Beneteau.

And I don't mean to make that sound like a bad thing, it is not.

[danstanford 130]

1 hour ago, floater said:

who knew boat builders had to be good at ppt too. and as for the math, DW SA / Displacement vs. Interior Volume is a new one for me - although it is an interesting metric.

I thought it was a ridiculous metric to use when I first saw it but I also assumed there were other charts as well using more traditional comparisons. 

[fcfc 10]

Quote

The First 40.7 ...

I am amazed to see how people do constantly refer to something that happened some 24 years ago.

Yes, the First 40.7 was designed last century, circa 1997. About 24 years ago.

The typical computing power available at that time was a Pentium 166, with 16 Megabytes RAM. Close to insignificant compared to my current smartphone.  And the top OS was Windows 95. I do not speak of Finite Element composite analysis at that time.

And for rules, the only available rules were the 57 pages Offshore Racing Yacht rules from American Bureau of Shipping, which cover ALL aspects of yacht. 

Now ISO 12215-5:2019 is 124 pages, and cover only hull/deck structural. Keel is another 81 pages in ISO12215-9. Rudder a 47 pages in ISO 12215-8, rig another 86 pages in ISO 12215-10, hull details in 58 pages in ISO 12215-6...  

And deck/hatch/portlights another 71 pages in ISO 12216...

[Matagi 1,443]

 

1 hour ago, fcfc said:

I am amazed to see how people do constantly refer to something that happened some 24 years ago.

My point exactly:

I am amazed to see people are still glueing inner structures into the hull and hanging tons of lead on a large lever on them, even though the potential risks with this idea have been known now for a long time.

We should have come further than that.

[LeoV 3,132]

Hanging keels on wood, unbelievable... just stick to welded solution.. oh damn, even with that there are problems.
For you I would fasten the grid like in the old days, screws from the outside inwards. Like a classic little boat.

But good to see one person never stepping onboard an airplane gain.
And buying a trimaran as soon as possible. No keel no problems.
Give it a rest.

Your little Waarschip were deemed to be unsafe in the days for any serious sail trip by the old guard.

[Kalimotxo 62]

3 hours ago, Matagi said:

My point exactly:

I am amazed to see people are still glueing inner structures into the hull and hanging tons of lead on a large lever on them, even though the potential risks with this idea have been known now for a long time.

We should have come further than that.

If you don't like ahesives in structural pieces your live depends on you better give contemporary cars a very wide berth. We can improve on welds by an order of magnitude with that stuff chemists gave us in the recent past.

[Crash 1,006]

2 hours ago, LeoV said:

But good to see one person never stepping onboard an airplane gain.

 

18 minutes ago, Kalimotxo said:

If you don't like ahesives in structural pieces your live depends on you better give contemporary cars a very wide berth.

Cars and (commercial) aircraft are a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison.  Neither needs to be designed to continue to function after an impact event.  The modern cars structure is designed to deform in an accident to absorb impact forces, not to enable the car to continue to be road-worthy.  Commercial aircraft are designed to exceed certain aerodynamic and landing loads, but again, not to remain airworthy if you hit the wing on something.  Only combat aircraft are designed to survive (some) damage and continue to fly.

We wish our sailboats to still be seaworthy enough to get us safely to port after a grounding or hitting a submerged object at sea (whale, shipping container, etc).  

[floater 692]

17 hours ago, danstanford said:

I thought it was a ridiculous metric to use when I first saw it but I also assumed there were other charts as well using more traditional comparisons. 

idk. the audience are dealers. what sells boats? 

I guess this particular box is where Manuard has put it. Not long to wait now..

[Kalimotxo 62]

1 hour ago, Crash said:

We wish our sailboats to still be seaworthy enough to get us safely to port after a grounding or hitting a submerged object at sea (whale, shipping container, etc).  

That is very much the specification for any piece or system you put on an airbus. I would argue that those apples and oranges are close in some regards.

I suspect the underlying problem here and in the case quoted above is the lack of demanding checks after exceeding certain defined load cases and heavy maintenance on many owner operated pleasure boats.

[fcfc 10]

1 hour ago, Crash said:

 

Cars and (commercial) aircraft are a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison.  Neither needs to be designed to continue to function after an impact event.  The modern cars structure is designed to deform in an accident to absorb impact forces, not to enable the car to continue to be road-worthy.  Commercial aircraft are designed to exceed certain aerodynamic and landing loads, but again, not to remain airworthy if you hit the wing on something.  Only combat aircraft are designed to survive (some) damage and continue to fly.

We wish our sailboats to still be seaworthy enough to get us safely to port after a grounding or hitting a submerged object at sea (whale, shipping container, etc).  

 

Are you saying that you are willing to pay a sailboat price similar to combat aircraft price, for a sailboat that can continue to be seaworthy after grounding or hitting submerged object ??

[floater 692]

call it "glue" - but I thought a structural adhesive typically stronger than the materials they are binding - and no exception in this case. what am I missing?

[George Dewey 119]

7 hours ago, fcfc said:

The typical computing power available at that time was a Pentium 166, with 16 Megabytes RAM. Close to insignificant compared to my current smartphone.  And the top OS was Windows 95. I do not speak of Finite Element composite analysis at that time.

Yet somehow, about 30 years earlier, we managed to land men on the moon and return them safely, flying them in craft designed with slide rules and using a guidance computer equipped with core rope memory and such.

I agree that we should not let the Cheeki Rafiki incident color every Beneteau ever made, but let's not blame that incident on Windows 95. I mean, yeah it did suck, but still...  

[JohnMB 559]

26 minutes ago, floater said:

call it "glue" - but I thought a structural adhesive typically stronger than the materials they are binding - and no exception in this case. what am I missing?

This is 'sort' of true. In a well designed and well build adhesive joint the composite will fail before the laminate.

This is not quite the same as saying the adhesive is stronger, because the adhesive and laminate are doing different jobs and have different loads on them.

But one thing this does mean is that you have to make sure the joint is properly designed and fabricated. Just as you have to ensure the laminate is properly designed and fabricated.

[floater 692]

1 hour ago, JohnMB said:

This is 'sort' of true. In a well designed and well build adhesive joint the composite will fail before the laminate.

This is not quite the same as saying the adhesive is stronger, because the adhesive and laminate are doing different jobs and have different loads on them.

But one thing this does mean is that you have to make sure the joint is properly designed and fabricated. Just as you have to ensure the laminate is properly designed and fabricated.

perhaps I'm reading between the lines, but..

• These guys are in charge of the structure: PURE Design & Engineering. could you do any better? 
• My understanding is that Cheeky failed because accident history.
• Cheeky only related to Seascape in name anyway. sheesh. different yard / generation / design etc.

idk. but of the thousands of keels you might find yourself depending upon - this one looks pretty good to me. imo, its actually kind of remarkable looking for the price point. ymmv.

[fcfc 10]

31 minutes ago, floater said:

. imo, its actually kind of remarkable looking for the price point. ymmv.

Yes, mileage may vary.

Beneteau sold over 700 First 40.7. 

From the image seascape provided, competitors Pogo 36 is in the 30-50 units. J/122 should be less than 200 (J/109 is 360) XP-38 is 83.

I do not see Seascape First 36 selling more than 1/4 of the First 40.7.  Roughly 100 to 200 units. 

Time will tell.

[Crash 1,006]

3 hours ago, fcfc said:

 

Are you saying that you are willing to pay a sailboat price similar to combat aircraft price, for a sailboat that can continue to be seaworthy after grounding or hitting submerged object ??

No, not at all.  All I was saying was that the case and environment that you design for are fundamentally different between sailboat keel structures and cars/aircraft.

 

3 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

I suspect the underlying problem here and in the case quoted above is the lack of demanding checks after exceeding certain defined load cases and heavy maintenance on many owner operated pleasure boats.

I suspect you are correct.  Certainly in aviation if you overstress an aircraft there are a series of checks and inspections that must be conducted before the airplane can be returned to flight status.  We don't have that same "system" or "mentality" yet in sailing.  Some owners most certainly do.  But as history has shown, some owners do not.

[Upp3 253]

22 hours ago, fcfc said:

I am amazed to see how people do constantly refer to something that happened some 24 years ago.

Yes, the First 40.7 was designed last century, circa 1997. About 24 years ago.

The typical computing power available at that time was a Pentium 166, with 16 Megabytes RAM. Close to insignificant compared to my current smartphone.  And the top OS was Windows 95. I do not speak of Finite Element composite analysis at that time.

FEM and FEA has been used since the dark ages... just see https://charlestonmarineconsulting.com/services/finite-element-analysis-fea/fea-model-of-beneteau-40-keel-attachment/ That dude has been selling FEA software in 1996.

[canstead 47]

It's great to look into a bunch of suitably qualified and experienced people comment on highly technical things.

However, in this thread there's a bunch of people who really don't have an idea about a subject getting all 'keyboard-jockey-reads-a-few-articles,-decides-they're-now-an-expert-and-it's-obviously-all-common-sense' on us.

It was the point someone said 'obviously all adhesives are bad because that pritt-stick i used isn't very good' that just cheered up my day.

An argument between uninformed experts has no value, other than entertainment, but is divisive.

[nigel 4]

2 hours ago, canstead said:

It's great to look into a bunch of suitably qualified and experienced people comment on highly technical things.

However, in this thread there's a bunch of people who really don't have an idea about a subject getting all 'keyboard-jockey-reads-a-few-articles,-decides-they're-now-an-expert-and-it's-obviously-all-common-sense' on us.

It was the point someone said 'obviously all adhesives are bad because that pritt-stick i used isn't very good' that just cheered up my day.

An argument between uninformed experts has no value, other than entertainment, but is divisive.

What I love most about this thread is that Kristian claims only basic knowledge of structural composites, while the rest of the commenters are implying they have some kind of real expertise. It's a classic example of how becoming a real expert teaches you more about what you don't know (and shouldn't claim to know), whereas to the layman things appear simple. 

[Parma 430]

2 hours ago, canstead said:

An argument between uninformed experts has no value, other than entertainment, but is divisive.

And that is their exact purpose: to cast doubt, uncertainty and criticism to a boat that they can’t manage, afford or will ever buy.

It’s likely those comments find their roots in jealousy or the perception that if they criticize Beneteau they will be seen as “cool”.

Not me. I’d take one. Looks like a fucking blast

[floater 692]

8 minutes ago, Parma said:

I’d take one. Looks like a fucking blast

can't wait to see it sailing. the kite would seem to be f*^%ing huge - boat should launch dw.

wonder if the boys will get to take her out before the show?

[parey 0]

Verra t'on le bateau ponté et sera t' il mis à l'eau avant le salon de Dusseldorf ??. 

 

[Parma 430]

31 minutes ago, parey said:

Verra t'on le bateau ponté et sera t' il mis à l'eau avant le salon de Dusseldorf ??. 

 

Selon l'interview en amont, le bateau sera mis à l'eau dans les prochains mois et sera au salon de Düsseldorf.