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New Beneteau First 36


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On 12/2/2021 at 10:06 AM, Upp3 said:

FEM and FEA has been used since the dark ages... just see https://charlestonmarineconsulting.com/services/finite-element-analysis-fea/fea-model-of-beneteau-40-keel-attachment/ That dude has been selling FEA software in 1996.

The grid analysis shown has been done with Nastran version 12 (written in the text). Published circa 2018. I am not sure the 1996 version could have done the same.

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Kristian, I'd add one comment to this. Christian the owner is a genuinely nice guy who is passionate about his boats, an impression I get from you from reading your posts here. When I went o

on a side note, one of the last 27s that came to refit/upgrade, the owner complained that the boat is heavy. Looking at the  boat's file the weight of the hull, deck, structurally assembled hull and t

I’m so glad there’s a community of yacht designers on SA that can tell me if a boat is a shitter just from 2 renders 

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1 hour ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Keel is coming end of next week, rig is coming a week latter and the spinny is not ordered. However, asymetric with 160m2 is on stock already...

whoa. I'm beginning to ask myself "what would you get if you crossed a Pogo with a Beneteau"..?

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1 hour ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Keel is coming end of next week, rig is coming a week latter and the spinny is not ordered. However, asymetric with 160m2 is on stock already...

Who is making the spar? Is the boom aluminum? 

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On 11/29/2021 at 10:34 PM, bstrdsonofbtl said:

They gonna' glue this down or glass it in?

08_Structure-FIRST-36-Seascape-Beneteau.

Wait, gel coated, so glue? 

Why is the laminate under the grid darker than the laminate elsewhere?

How thick is the laminate in the box sections of the grid? As thick as the flange appears or thicker and if so by how much?

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Because it is a monolithic area built up with 22 layers of glass fibers. You do not want core in this area.  Keel grid is a combination of (quite a lot) unidirectional fibers running in longitudinal and transversal  floors covered with a layers of multiaxial glass fibers. Thickness  goes from 6mm for sides to 14 mm for keel bolts area. This is then glued on roughly 15mm of hull monolithic area, plus structural glue, so the keel bolt has to pass around 30-35mm of solid glass and structural glue. Plus it is supported by very dense grid of vertical walls.  The keel's  load case was calculated for max loading when you ground with the long keel (2,55m).
As a matter of fact, PURE did a very good job by having a very light nominal scantlings (like inner skin, core, outer skin) but few areas like keel structure, rudder bearing areas and similar got a lot of attention and have very elaborate layup. As said many times before, I am super happy to have them on board as top experts in this field.
 

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10 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

Gentlemen, I apologize but I made a typo. A2 is 150m2, Code 5 is 90m2.

Standard alu rig is coming from Z-Spars while carbon mast is an option and is being built by Axxon.

Even 150m2 is a monster. I run a 116m2 A2 on my 3600 and it's one of the bigger asyms on that model. I can't imagine how you'd fly a 150 on a 36ft boat without a much bigger rig. 

Sounds like you guys have built a great fast cruiser for the non-offshore crowd, but have a deep desire to see it take the fight to JPK in full Seascape mode, which is great news for the market. Will be very interesting to see where it ends up rating given the deep, bulbed keel and huge cloth. Hopefully IRC will be sympathetic and we can look forward to the next generation of lighter/faster (and probably ever-wetter!) boats.

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14 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

So, the three sections forward are not cut out like the aft section visible in above image?

It appears the first section isn't but other two aren't either?

I'm assuming those sections are where keel is through bolted.

Central three sections are not cut out and the front one is having a floor too, just the most forward tip is open. Shapes too must work for you, not just bulk. Keel is bolted through all of that.
Regarding the spi area, this is the max. size that foretriangle will allow it. It is not necessarily the most efficient, so the time will tell...

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Go Kristian!  I love the idea of a Beneteau gone nuts. I race on a 10R, and just bought a Mount Gay 30, so really like this boat. It’s the best of both worlds. I’d love a Pogo, but that’d be at least ten years out. I could see buying one of these in five. 

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On 12/4/2021 at 5:04 AM, floater said:

whoa. I'm beginning to ask myself "what would you get if you crossed a Pogo with a Beneteau"..?

Yep. I'm a fan of the style, I  hope they do well. 

I ran a 100mreaching aso, 150m2 heavy air vmg and a 195mlight air vmg wardrobe.

The boat could handle the sail area no probs. I got caught out a few times and had to drop the big kite in 20 knots. Not because we were overpowered, but to protect the kite. 

In heavy airs the 100m2 and 17mstaysail was a great combo with a reefed 50m2 main, you could let go of the helm it was so neutral.  

 

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3 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Yep. I'm a fan of the style, I  hope they do well. 

I ran a 100mreaching aso, 150m2 heavy air vmg and a 195mlight air vmg wardrobe.

The boat could handle the sail area no probs. I got caught out a few times and had to drop the big kite in 20 knots. Not because we were overpowered, but to protect the kite. 

 

Where’s the fun in that?  :D

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6 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Where’s the fun in that?  :D

I know.....pussie soft cock owners! We had one night where it was flat water and so much fun I kept holding off and holding off ....the repair bill was worth every cent.  

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4 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I know.....pussie soft cock owners! We had one night where it was flat water and so much fun I kept holding off and holding off ....the repair bill was worth every cent.  

I’m not judging, just talking shit. My first race with my new boat, the forecast called for light to middle breeze. We didn’t even consider swapping sails out. By the the time the AP came down, it was blowing a solid 25, and gusting. We only had a pair of A2’s on board. You can guess what we put up. It was fast as hell for awhile. (We lost a few minutes while laid flat in the water)

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9 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I’m not judging, just talking shit. My first race with my new boat, the forecast called for light to middle breeze. We didn’t even consider swapping sails out. By the the time the AP came down, it was blowing a solid 25, and gusting. We only had a pair of A2’s on board. You can guess what we put up. It was fast as hell for awhile. (We lost a few minutes while laid flat in the water)

No offense taken mate, pushing the edges is part of the kick. I don't mind screwing up and being overpressed when I've lots of RM, we call it the M'lady as it all so nice and genteel like. But then you hop on a tender fast boat and it all happens so quickly I look like a complete buffoon on the helm :) . 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

No offense taken mate, pushing the edges is part of the kick. I don't mind screwing up and being overpressed when I've lots of RM, we call it the M'lady as it all so nice and genteel like. But then you hop on a tender fast boat and it all happens so quickly I look like a complete buffoon on the helm :) . 

 

 

I wish I could afford a boat like your past Pogo, but that’s a few years down the road. I’m a fan of big surf boards that pretend to be boats!

5E8AAE9A-1930-4903-96F0-D4E4C059B8E0.jpeg

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16 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I wish I could afford a boat like your past Pogo, but that’s a few years down the road. I’m a fan of big surf boards that pretend to be boats!

5E8AAE9A-1930-4903-96F0-D4E4C059B8E0.jpeg

I reckon my favourite spot would be tucked in that pushpit when slaloming downwind.   

Cool lines Monkey, I like the winch positioning.  

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5 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

I reckon my favourite spot would be tucked in that pushpit when slaloming downwind.   

Cool lines Monkey, I like the winch positioning.  

Don’t even ask what those winch positions cost in insurance. The aft winches are for the runners. There is no backstay. Oh, and it’s got inline spreaders. Obviously just to be safe it runs huge A sails. My insurance rate is almost twice what a M32 pays. 

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2 minutes ago, Monkey said:

 My insurance rate is almost twice what a M32 pays. 

:lol::lol:.  

When I was in England I bought a Ducati, but a sports/tourer not an outright racer, however the insurance company only heard 'Ducati' and put me in the highest (big sports bike) insurance bracket. 

The insurance was so steep it worked out I could have bought a new bike every two years :ph34r:

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4 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

:lol::lol:.  

When I was in England I bought a Ducati, but a sports/tourer not an outright racer, however the insurance company only heard 'Ducati' and put me in the highest (big sports bike) insurance bracket. 

The insurance was so steep it worked out I could have bought a new bike every two years :ph34r:

I could buy my previous boat once a year with just what it costs to insure the new one. Lol!

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Now that we’ve derailed this thread from the haters, back on topic. If this boat is still in production 3-4 years from now, I’d probably be a buyer. If it comes in at designed weights, it’s exactly what I want. 

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On 12/4/2021 at 12:25 AM, Kristian Seascape said:

The keel's  load case was calculated for max loading when you ground with the long keel (2,55m).

Wow, an 8 foot 4 inch keel! That's going to limit owners a bit, and make over road transport a pain (at least here in the US). I couldn't tell from your description, but is the keel bolted and glued or just bolted? Being able to drop the keel for transport or repair would be handy. 

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15 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Yep. I'm a fan of the style, I  hope they do well. 

I ran a 100mreaching aso, 150m2 heavy air vmg and a 195mlight air vmg wardrobe.

The boat could handle the sail area no probs. I got caught out a few times and had to drop the big kite in 20 knots. Not because we were overpowered, but to protect the kite. 

In heavy airs the 100m2 and 17mstaysail was a great combo with a reefed 50m2 main, you could let go of the helm it was so neutral.  

They're a different breed. I got used to "owning the bay" in my little 14' Weta - as it truly is faster both upwind and down than most boats out there - especially on a reach. However, one day, some beamy monster tore a hole in ocean right in front of me and kept going literally like a freight train (the roar of its passing was audible, lol). I could scarcely get a look it was gone so fast. I've been fascinated by these things ever since (and it was "just" a Pogo 36). so, there are plenty twin rudder beamy French things sailing around these days that superficially have the look - but from what I can tell - not the substance.

I guess the goal for this thing is to rip it up like a Pogo - fingers crossed. yes. that would be great to see.

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On 12/3/2021 at 7:01 PM, Kristian Seascape said:

Keel is coming end of next week, rig is coming a week latter and the spinny is not ordered. However, asymetric with 160m2 is on stock already...

Spec says "Downwind sail area: 180 m2 / 1930 sq. ft"?

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On 12/3/2021 at 10:43 PM, Kristian Seascape said:

Gentlemen, I apologize but I made a typo. A2 is 150m2, Code 5 is 90m2.

Standard alu rig is coming from Z-Spars while carbon mast is an option and is being built by Axxon.

Sounds resonable. Same setup we had on the J/111 before trying to get into the proper IRC class by getting under 1.100.

Looking forward to seeing this on the water.

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On 12/5/2021 at 12:04 AM, George Dewey said:

Wow, an 8 foot 4 inch keel! That's going to limit owners a bit, and make over road transport a pain (at least here in the US). I couldn't tell from your description, but is the keel bolted and glued or just bolted? Being able to drop the keel for transport or repair would be handy. 

Having lived with an 8.5’ draft for 20 years, it can clear your sinuses at times, and lead to longer courses, but the sailing qualities are beguiling, upwind and down.

Moveable keels are fun until you get marine growth in them.  I’ve wondered about the Pogo style swing keel- are they designed and built to crunch growth with no damage?

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5 hours ago, Amati said:

Moveable keels are fun until you get marine growth in them.  I’ve wondered about the Pogo style swing keel- are they designed and built to crunch growth with no damage?

Being a predominantly fresh-water sailor I've never had to consider this. How much of a problem is it really? 

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2 minutes ago, Cwinsor said:

Being a predominantly fresh-water sailor I've never had to consider this. How much of a problem is it really? 

Depends where you are, what design movable appendages, and what kind of anti fouling you’re allowed.  I move the tiller at least once a week, and even then, it can be crunchy. What with COVID, a diver is a good thing.

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13 hours ago, Amati said:

Depends where you are, what design movable appendages, and what kind of anti fouling you’re allowed.  I move the tiller at least once a week, and even then, it can be crunchy. What with COVID, a diver is a good thing.

Growth in rudder bearings god fucking damn that sucks. The growth happening here at the moment is insane, the guys racing I catch them cleaning their bottoms WEEKLY.

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37 minutes ago, darth reapius said:

Growth in rudder bearings god fucking damn that sucks. The growth happening here at the moment is insane, the guys racing I catch them cleaning their bottoms WEEKLY.

Oh I have always cleaned weekly. I don't have an articulating keel but the diver manages to keep the growth out of the folding prop gears without any trouble.  

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6 hours ago, DingDong said:

FFS - Flights and hotel booked specifically to go and view the 36. That is something of a pain in the arse.

I guess there's no official word yet - but Ljubljana looks interesting..

big-a6f6878d6b484da47c4736c54dd57d93.jpg

 

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some encouraging news from Pure on the First 36:

"Well, we certainly use the same tools, the same engineering analysis and calculations that go into America's cup, here on the First 36."

"We are managing to hit the target weight we are aiming for"

"I think the hull shape is quite new for a boat of this type and size. It's going to be a very lively, exciting boat to sail. You will feel alive in the boat. So I think it's hull shape, and to be honest, I am pretty happy with what we are doing. We're managing to keep it pretty light. It's going to be nice and light and rigid, much better than boats that size sold in production."

https://seascape-edition.com/stories/f36-interview-series-giovanni-belgrano-from-pure-design-engineering-10572

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well, honestly I am happy with the decision. Boat shows are there to meet people, talk to them, show them the boat and generally forge contacts and relations. However, this year, this would not be possible. The organizers are not listening to exhibitors and are pushing their agenda. Among other the entrance will be allowed only to vaccinated or those who recovered from covid19 withing 6months. Access to the boat will be limited, basically, invited only, exhibitors will have to follow disinfection protocols, wearing FFP2 class mask will be mandatory for the whole duration. Thank you, but no, thank you. I do not see apoint in going there. Fortunately the entire Groupe Beneteau decided and cancelled participation. Among other brands that took same decision are Dragonfly, X-yachts, entire Hanse group (Hanse, Dehler, ...) Oyster. And that was just the beginning. Followed suit was Beneteau Group (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Lagoon, Prestige, etc), Fountain Pajot Group/Dufour as well as most of Italian brands - Solaris, Grand Soleil, Swan and Italia Yachts.
For us, this is good as we will launch the boat in Adriatic in second half of January, plus we can shift more resources in building the boat #2 and complete her too in mid February. 

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9 hours ago, Kristian Seascape said:

well, honestly I am happy with the decision. Boat shows are there to meet people, talk to them, show them the boat and generally forge contacts and relations. However, this year, this would not be possible. The organizers are not listening to exhibitors and are pushing their agenda. Among other the entrance will be allowed only to vaccinated or those who recovered from covid19 withing 6months. Access to the boat will be limited, basically, invited only, exhibitors will have to follow disinfection protocols, wearing FFP2 class mask will be mandatory for the whole duration. Thank you, but no, thank you. I do not see apoint in going there. Fortunately the entire Groupe Beneteau decided and cancelled participation. Among other brands that took same decision are Dragonfly, X-yachts, entire Hanse group (Hanse, Dehler, ...) Oyster. And that was just the beginning. Followed suit was Beneteau Group (Beneteau, Jeanneau, Lagoon, Prestige, etc), Fountain Pajot Group/Dufour as well as most of Italian brands - Solaris, Grand Soleil, Swan and Italia Yachts.
For us, this is good as we will launch the boat in Adriatic in second half of January, plus we can shift more resources in building the boat #2 and complete her too in mid February. 

You all can bring your boats here to Charleston, we'll have none of that Covid restriction crap and it's an awesome place!

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Ceux qui veulent un bateau vide, voir Ker, Melges, ou Black Pepper, Moi j'attends un couteau Suisse pour tout faire ,courrir ou croiser fun avec la famille... même tout petit plus lourd. 

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3 hours ago, floater said:

wait. what?

I misspoke. Of course, as always, the GF or wife or both tits are welcome, but not in lieu of the boat pics. If both are provided, so much the better.  Extra credit if the tit pics are taken on the First 36. 

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1 hour ago, parey said:

Ceux qui veulent un bateau vide, voir Ker, Melges, ou Black Pepper, Moi j'attends un couteau Suisse pour tout faire ,courrir ou croiser fun avec la famille... même tout petit plus lourd. 

exactly. would you order a cheeseburger without cheese?

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Any word on an IRC number?

Noted above - if I read it correctly the tin rig is 50kg more than a carbon rig. I can find that in stripped halyards and lighter laminate sails over the majority of club / reatta racers. An I missing something? As a comparison anyone got the difference in rig weights on the First 40?

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19 hours ago, Jono said:

Noted above - if I read it correctly the tin rig is 50kg more than a carbon rig. I can find that in stripped halyards and lighter laminate sails over the majority of club / reatta racers. An I missing something? As a comparison anyone got the difference in rig weights on the First 40?

It's going to be <=25 metres of tube, so 50 kg or 2 kg / metre saving doesn't sound crazy?

It's not just the weight aloft it's the tuneability, boom & cool factor ;)

1.070 would feel like hard work level rating with a First 40 or versus a SF3600 or J/112 in the 1.050 range

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59 minutes ago, Snowden said:

It's going to be <=25 metres of tube, so 50 kg or 2 kg / metre saving doesn't sound crazy?

It's not just the weight aloft it's the tuneability, boom & cool factor ;)

1.070 would feel like hard work level rating with a First 40 or versus a SF3600 or J/112 in the 1.050 range

1.070 does seem high but consider that a J112 doesn’t plane and there’s a possibility that the First will. The 3600s are good boats but even their reaching performance gets shown up by the 3300s that rate much lower, if this boat carries a similar vmg upwind but faster downwind and reaching performance to match or exceed a 3300 it might work out. Of course all hypothetical keyboard bashing until a rating gets published ;) 

I used a 3600 at 1.040-1.050 and a pogo 36 at 1.110-1-130 as reference for my guesswork!

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8 hours ago, JL92S said:

If I had to purely guess I would say around 1.070 on IRC.

Also saw this picture emerge on Facebook, it looks good so far!

3BF5DD92-BD20-4FEB-8F70-3CA41B04D80F.thumb.jpeg.2435f7344ff33453ceac138fb033fdac.jpeg

Holy Crap! Suddenly I want a new boat! A shiny new boat!

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54 minutes ago, JL92S said:

1.070 does seem high but consider that a J112 doesn’t plane and there’s a possibility that the First will.

The two boats will displace roughly the same, so the F36's claim to plane would be what, 20-30 sqm more kite and a more powerful hull form? I haven't sailed a 112 in the right conditions to determine whether more kite would get it going.

It'll be interesting to see how these get set up for IRC, I wouldn't be surprised if some owners try and neuter them to get under 1.050. Maybe we'll even see one with symmetric kites and a stubby sprit ;)

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We have sent the boat data for preliminary rating certificates (IRC & ORC) and will let you know once we have some actual data.

Regarding masts: spreaders are ALU, same as boom. Standard standing rigging is dyform (roughly 25kg) so there are some significant savings possible if you use good textile rigging. This is the same for both versions. The tube is  115kg for ALU and 55kg for carbon. 

Boat is supposed to plane if the owner will not load her up to the roof with junk.

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on a side note, one of the last 27s that came to refit/upgrade, the owner complained that the boat is heavy. Looking at the  boat's file the weight of the hull, deck, structurally assembled hull and the weight of the boat before delivery it all appeared normal. But when the boat arrived and we started to unload all the stuff from inside, I was amazed, you can put that many things into the 27'' boat. I actually weighted that pile and it neatly came at 310kg. On a boat that weights 1,400kg that is a significant. 

One needs a bit of discipline about your goals. If you want a comfy cruiser for family time, then you will have to accept some penalty in terms of performance. We have just installed a 40kg water heater at the request of the client that will not make the boat any faster (but you will have hot water for shower).
On the other hand, if you want to follow performance curve (and have a bit of discipline about what you need), you have the potential with light and stiff structure that will make the boat much more lively compared to what you can get in a typical 36'' performance cruiser. 

However, looking at the current mainstream boats in the same size range the communication about then is mainly about "faster... more comfortable...more luxurious... more performant" which are words that are practically excluding itself. Especially if you look into simple SA/displacement ratio that is 99% boats lower today that was in 1985, despite all the advancement in modern composites and composite construction.

Long story short, our 36 is a typical boat that needs to be judged by its performance on water. We can talk all the bullshit marketing talk, but if the boat will not perform on the water, if it will not allow the average customer satisfaction of high speed sailing with a minimum of drama, then the boat is not a success. Will it still sell? Yes, of course, it is Beneteau First and they will sell it more than we can build, but it will still not reach the design goal. 

We call that the "wow factor" - when you experience the  boat that sails well and starts to plane easily and an average sailor not used to this go "wow"... Pogos do that easily and you might like or dislike their utilitarianism (some might even claim lack of styling) but no one can deny them the lack of performance. They set the golden standard for this and set the bar to the level where everybody needs to measure up... or convince themselves to enjoy in their luxurious but displacement  downwind run.

 

 

Edited by Kristian Seascape
typo...
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On 12/18/2021 at 6:53 PM, Kristian Seascape said:

We call that the "wow factor" - when you experience the  boat that sails well and starts to plane easily and an average sailor not used to this go "wow"... Pogos do that easily and you might like or dislike their utilitarianism (some might even claim lack of styling) but no one can deny them the lack of performance. They set the golden standard for this and set the bar to the level where everybody needs to measure up... or convince themselves to enjoy in their luxurious but displacement  downwind run.

Kristian,

I'd add one comment to this. Christian the owner is a genuinely nice guy who is passionate about his boats, an impression I get from you from reading your posts here.

When I went over to commission my boat we diverted some clients who were in the UK to swing past and come for a sail. Even though none of them were sailors and were more interested in the experience than actual sailing, Christian graciously made himself available and gave us a tour of the yard.

As a composites engineer prior to starting Structures, his eyes light up when the subject comes up. We were standing around a pallet of foam in an old storage shed as Christian explained in broken English about the types of foam they use and the trials and tribulations of infusing hulls. Christian's English is not the best and our French was worse, but halfway through he had some hard nosed businessmen that weren't even sailors hanging on his every word simply from his enthusiasm and subject matter expertise. It was compelling to watch. 

Structures was the first yard I visited where I felt even the shop floor staff genuinely loved their product, it was evident in the pride they displayed when we stopped to ask some innocuous question. This doesn't happen unless the upper management can imbue that, that sort of culture comes from a top down approach.

You come across very similar, virtual or no. Your enthusiasm and dare I say your love of your boats comes across even though it is just words on web page. So I hope you keep posting about how you are going, the attitude and effort in reaching out to your prospective customers is exactly the ingredient that made me happy and comfortable to hand over a not insignificant amount of money to a complete stranger on the other side of the globe.

IMHO, humans like giving money to humans, not some nameless global multinational.  So keep up the posts Kristian, its that same human touch that made a difference for me when I was looking for the 'right' vendor.

All the best to you,

SB

  

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Kristian is as usually spot on in his quest for light, but functional designs with a powerful rig that planes under normal  sailing conditions. This is the ethos of the Seascape brand and now the First SE.

True story: In 2014 I had prepped my Seascape 27 for Andraz and Phil Sharp to do the Chi-Mac doublehanded. I thought I had done a pretty good job of removing all unnessesary stuff - then the "weight czars" (as I nicknamed them) came on board and quickly decided that was not good enough and then proceeded to completely empty the boat and allowing back only the most essential items. Deemed non-essential was the porta-potty until I pointed out it was a race requirement so they relented, but it had to be empty! Go figure - they won the division. For more info on that event there are video's around with Phil using words like "this boat is on fire" as they blasted downwind. There was also some funny comments about horse shit on the island, but that's perhaps another story.

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Shy

On 12/22/2021 at 11:37 AM, shaggybaxter said:

IMHO, humans like giving money to humans, not some nameless global multinational.  So keep up the posts Kristian, its that same human touch that made a difference for me when I was looking for the 'right' vendor.

Shaggy, thank you for that post.  I tried to write something several times, but it is hard to write anything better than what you say in the text above.  At the end, it is all about relationships. Structure and Seascape are very similar groups who are passionate about their products but at the same time, on the contrary to Corporate world, we have the opportunity to care about the customer, spend time with him, stay in contact with him after he bought the boat and build a good community around a good product. It is interesting to say we are much complementary that competition to each other. After all, the more people will discover the joy of sailing modern planning boat, the better.

With the boat nearing completion,  I was kindly asked by the CEO to allow the Beneteau to communicate about this boat through its proper channels. So if you run this sentence through the corporate-to-common translator it would give something along the lines "stop the fuck posting on the social networks or we'll cut your balls off", so sorry but no PereNoelSlovene photos from the boat. But since it is a festive period, a snow angel appeared in the shipyard... so I wish you all a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
 

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On 1/8/2022 at 10:42 AM, Kristian Seascape said:

not something you can find on a typical Beneteau - gap between hull and top of the rudder is 4mm. It was planned to be 3mm though, so we can do better next time.

2022-01-06 08.26.31.jpg

Its all about the little details! Are you able to tell us what rudder bearings were chosen?

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Beneteau Group works with Jeffa, so we have to conform to the Group guidelines. We used Jeffa stock and bearings, but did the rudder blades ourselves. With Sam Manuard we decided to use a glassfibre shell and milled Corecell core that you assemble with epoxy structural bonding material. End result is something that is quite simple to make, but gives you a thin, low drag and stiff blade. Process is well proven as it is used in Class 40 designs and other performance boats.

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Talking about our rudder system.. and since we have a twin rudder system here, I wonder how do we allign our First 36 rudders.

Is there a best setup according to the conditions? eg. upwind, downwind, planning

... or they should be simply exactly parallel?

Interesting topic... as flow is not always parallel. B)

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In ideal scenario you would have at least two settings, one for upwind and one for downwind.

Downwind is simple, you want the rudder to be parallel so that they create the least amount of drag.

Upwind is a different story. You would like to have some weather helm to generate lift on the rudder blade as well, but on the other hand you want to have minimal drag on the windward rudder which is partly immersed and making a lot of drag. If the leeward blade is at 1.5°to have a good angle of attack to generate lift, you want he windward rudder to be at 0° to move through the water with minimal drag. So ideal setup for upwind would be about 1.5° toe out.

For power reaching you generally have excess power, but usually not enough control. Rudder angles are generally larger so you would like to have the toe out a bit bigger to reduce the drag on the windward blade (and cavitation). For example, in Figaro circuit they adjust the tiller crossbar regarding to sailing direction and conditions. However this is something one would not expect from recreational sailor...

 

 

 

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On 1/12/2022 at 1:51 PM, Parma said:

I think they have to be parallel. If I had twinnies I wouldn't set it up any other way.

I think that was a yes?

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24 minutes ago, floater said:

I think that was a yes?

I'd think parallel might be your baseline, all purpose setting.  But I can see a case for adjusting it if your racing is going to be predominantly one kind of leg (i.e. upwind, vs reaching vs downwind).  Then the settings Kristian mentions would payoff on a longer race...

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2 hours ago, floater said:

I think that was a yes?

I think that has to be answered. If I had a question I wouldn't want it answered any other way.

Maybe.

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On 1/13/2022 at 12:18 AM, NitrousVic said:

Talking about our rudder system.. and since we have a twin rudder system here, I wonder how do we allign our First 36 rudders.

Is there a best setup according to the conditions? eg. upwind, downwind, planning

... or they should be simply exactly parallel?

Interesting topic... as flow is not always parallel. B)

The answer is yes if you are that into pickle dishes, an upwind and downwind 'mode'. And it should be easily adjustable. On the water and easily accessible. No way would I do it for round the cans racing, but if you are doing long ocean legs, then I would say yes. 

The boat would need to generate decent speeds to make it worthwhile. A side benefit is when reaching or running at pace, the higher speeds makes it easier to tune. You can use both the sound of the hum and the instrumentation to help you get a feel for it. You can also look over the transom and watch the rudder wake/vortex patterns change as you adjusted.

In the perfect world, I'd want three adjustments; port/starboard toe in, and toe in overall. I had all three in the middle of the lazerette so you could sit in the lazarette next to the helm doing the instant feedback loop thing. 

I hardly changed mine after the first few years as we found a sweet spot for all round conditions and I didn't value pickle dishes enough to dick around with it.   But it does make a difference, its akin to a trim wheel in an aircraft. 

What I would have loved is better measurement capability. Once you have the default position marked, its hard to keep accuracy with a locknut/nut assy. I've always thought of something like motorcycle suspension adjusters where there is a positive click when you move the adjusters. Like 3 clicks clockwise from the default, or 4 clicks anticlockwise.  

It was this that stopped me from playing with it more. I was more worried about losing the default position and making it worse than the benefit you derive from adjusting it in the first place.  

In defence of the vendor though, its actually quite a complex challenge. Three way adjustment of a steering control arm and a ruler/measurement gauge of some form had me sitting for many hours just staring at it wondering how best you could do it. There isn't an easy answer, a least not one that I found. 

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A company in the UK called Fourth Cape have built an extendable tiller bar that works electronically via a pair of “in” and “out” buttons in the cockpit. There is then a read out on the boats instruments that can be calibrated to degrees in or out, it all makes for quick and calculated adjustments on the water. It was developed for the Sunfast 3300s as an optional extra for the UK market but has since expanded to 3600s and JPKs. 

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3 hours ago, JL92S said:

A company in the UK called Fourth Cape have built an extendable tiller bar....

Great info, thank you! This is really something that makes a lot of difference upwind. We did quite some two boat testing on (light boats) and upwind, if you could get rid of the drag caused by windward rudder, the difference in performance was very noticeable...

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