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Lazy genoa sheet over the pole?


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We race a boat with overlapping headsails. As a former (and still part-time) bow, my personal preference is to leave everything hooked up on the pole throughout the race, so I've been directing my foredeck to leave the topping lift attached and store the pole clipped to a chainplate with the topper also running through the rear jaw. That allows the genoa to run over the spin gear, but that also means that with the pole up, the lazy genoa sheet is over the pole. The only difficulty here is making sure foredeck knows to switch the lazy sheets on the jibes. See photo here:

51394637990_8ff7be05a5_b.jpg

To me, this is preferable because if the sheets are correctly set, all we have to do is kill the topping lift and we're ready for a tack/jibe without disconnecting anything. This saves steps on the leeward mark rounding and reduces the likelihood of skying a disconnected topping lift or dropping the pole.

I picked up this technique from a J/29 I used to race on, and I find it's not too hard to jibe the sheets if you put the new lazy sheet over your shoulder on the jibes and run the pole under the elevated sheet on its way out to the new guy. On the other hand, I find the technique is unfamiliar to even some experienced bows I sail with. Anyone have thoughts on handling the pole with overlapping headsails?

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3 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

Anyone have thoughts on handling the pole with overlapping headsails?

Not in particular, it is how we also rig it (on farr30 for example) for up and downs in particular.

Though why aren't you dropping the jib/genoa which also eliminates the need to switch lazy sheets? Relatively rare for me to keep it up on spinnaker courses since it interferes more than helps.(though that can be boat specific and something to test)

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Yep

If your boat is of a size/configuration that end-for-end gybing with the pole is the most practical, then the bowman throws the lazy sheet over his shoulder just before reaching for the jaws at the mast ring (standing aft of the mast, not in line with the pole, please). That way, when he 'breaks' the pole and sends it out to the new guy & clips on, the lazy sheet will already be run over the pole like magic.

It also can work out to just leave the genny sheets on the deck. On the douse, break BOTH ends of the pole free and swing it vertical. This keeps it the fuck out of the way of everything else going on although it does tend to rattle around a bit. My crews have not liked this method and I have to say it's not my faovirte thing to have a spar freely crashing around in the foretriangle. But it does free you up to to tack instantly after your douse-n-round at the leeward mark.

FB- Doug

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Just now, allweather said:

Though why aren't you dropping the jib/genoa which also eliminates the need to switch lazy sheets?

We do drop it, but that doesn't eliminate the need to switch the sheets unless you want to re-run the genoa sheets, disconnect the topper, or bring the pole back on the douses (difficult for us because we don't have much of a cockpit). Basically, for this scheme to work you always need the genoa gear on top of the spinnaker gear. Here's a post-set photo (excuse the overtrim):

May be an image of boat racing, sailboat and nature

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4 minutes ago, Editor said:

Yankee Dolphin! My folks had an early - hull #72 - Dolphin. What a great boat!

We love this boat! I love racing a classic that's also very competitive. We also have Hull 35 in the fleet.

If you have any more info on #72, you might check-in with Ron Breault, who runs an insanely comprehensive website for the class, with history on every known hull. Here is his page on 72: http://www.dolphin24.org/quest.html

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29 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yep

If your boat is of a size/configuration that end-for-end gybing with the pole is the most practical, then the bowman throws the lazy sheet over his shoulder just before reaching for the jaws at the mast ring (standing aft of the mast, not in line with the pole, please). That way, when he 'breaks' the pole and sends it out to the new guy & clips on, the lazy sheet will already be run over the pole like magic.

It also can work out to just leave the genny sheets on the deck. On the douse, break BOTH ends of the pole free and swing it vertical. This keeps it the fuck out of the way of everything else going on although it does tend to rattle around a bit. My crews have not liked this method and I have to say it's not my faovirte thing to have a spar freely crashing around in the foretriangle. But it does free you up to to tack instantly after your douse-n-round at the leeward mark.

FB- Doug

Doing it every gybe builds habit however you really only need to do this on the last gybe into the mark.

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1 minute ago, LakeBoy said:

Doing it every gybe builds habit however you really only need to do this on the last gybe into the mark.

And as foredeck how much do you trust the back of the boat to know when you are on that last gybe :).

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48 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

We love this boat! I love racing a classic that's also very competitive. We also have Hull 35 in the fleet.

If you have any more info on #72, you might check-in with Ron Breault, who runs an insanely comprehensive website for the class, with history on every known hull. Here is his page on 72: http://www.dolphin24.org/quest.html

I really want to get one again, someday. As an homage to my dad and because they are so great!

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15 minutes ago, markwbird said:

I think that is pretty standard.

What, the foredeck saying "Dammit, this BETTER be the last gybe on this leg!!"? :lol:

Another part of the method, which I think is fairly standard, is for the foredeck to be in charge of the boat from the minute that the skipper orders "get ready to gybe." When steering, I always follow the bowman's lead on getting the spinnaker to float into and thru the break-then-make on the pole; and on boats where people listen to me (on rare occasions, this happens), I instruct the trimmers to help the bowman with a gentle steady pull IN to get the sheets where they need to be, a big EASE on the new guy as the pole gets run out, and always keeping just enough tension on the lazy sheets/twings to keep them from either dragging in the water or tangling.

Nice crew work is a beauty. I am almost always training somebody new, so anything better than a major clusterf&&& makes me smile.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Sisu3360 said:

We do drop it

 

1 hour ago, LakeBoy said:

Doing it every gybe builds habit however you really only need to do this on the last gybe into the mark.

Now I get what you meant. Yeah, we simply don't bother and have the bowman do it before the drop. Which has given us difficulties before, but then so those gybe drops were too close anyway...

Otherwise it can help to communicate how you're going to round the last mark(gate) and the bow can just prepare it purely for that(on some occasions disconnected the windward sheet, though that is better be well planned since tacking of course isn't like that) and rerun the sheet quick on the upwind. For those roundings/drops where you just know things are going to get too tight.

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on the 8mr with 176% jib, we just set the pole and leave the jib sheet on deck. for a drop, you hoist the jib on your mainsail side, get the lazy guy from under the jib, drop the spinnaker, with someone in the hole, then as soon as spi is under control, get the pole off, loosen topping lift, fix pole (watch that it is under the jib sheets) and put the topping back at the mast. on a dragon, it's about the same. 

easy as 123. 

 

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

If your boat is of a size/configuration that end-for-end gybing with the pole is the most practical, then the bowman throws the lazy sheet over his shoulder just before reaching for the jaws at the mast ring (standing aft of the mast, not in line with the pole, please). That way, when he 'breaks' the pole and sends it out to the new guy & clips on, the lazy sheet will already be run over the pole like magic.

I've done the same by placing the lazy sheet in the crook of my elbow. Almost as fool-proof.

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11 hours ago, hokie said:

Big fan of stowing the pole on the boom. 

 

8 hours ago, armchairadmiral said:

Stow pole on boom and all (most) problems go away !

+1

Up to a certain boat size (say 35 feet or so?) the best way to do it. Just make sure the downfucker isn’t  dangling free. If it catches a cabin top winch during a gybe, it can break your spin pole neatly in two halves. (Don’t ask me how I know.) 

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15 hours ago, JohnMB said:

And as foredeck how much do you trust the back of the boat to know when you are on that last gybe :).

One of the things that separates out good foredecks is they stop asking and work it out for themselves. 

The time taken to keep the jib sheet above the pole during a gybe is a lot less than the time saved by not having to re-run sheets or by being able to tack or gybe sooner after the drop.

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If I'm on the bow and you direct me you're going to get some pretty direct direction back.

Let the bow do his job how he sees fit. Until he fucks up, then bury him.

Personally in that situation I aim to keep the sheets over the pole and put the lazy sheet on my shoulder going into the gybe. If I fuck up and drop one I sort it straight after. If not the danger of forgetting on the last gybe is too high. I don't want to be explaining to the idiot pit that they can't tack straight off the mark.

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23 hours ago, Editor said:

Yankee Dolphin! My folks had an early - hull #72 - Dolphin. What a great boat!

love...I'm in process of giving my dolphin 24 a makeover and get her wet for the first time in 4 years...........

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3 hours ago, European Bloke said:

If I'm on the bow and you direct me you're going to get some pretty direct direction back.

Let the bow do his job how he sees fit. Until he fucks up, then bury him.

This is our bow's first season running kite, and everyone's first time regularly racing for all but me and our trimmer. We spent the first half of the season blowing first mark leads, but now we're scoring some bullets.

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25 minutes ago, dacapo said:

love...I'm in process of giving my dolphin 24 a makeover and get her wet for the first time in 4 years...........

Man - if you're on WLIS you'll be impossible to beat with that thing. I've never been on a boat that's so heavy and yet such a rocketship in almost no wind.

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17 minutes ago, Sisu3360 said:

Man - if you're on WLIS you'll be impossible to beat with that thing. I've never been on a boat that's so heavy and yet such a rocketship in almost no wind.

I have too many boats...this one needs to be sold :mellow:

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On 8/25/2021 at 11:01 AM, Sisu3360 said:

We race a boat with overlapping headsails. As a former (and still part-time) bow, my personal preference is to leave everything hooked up on the pole throughout the race, so I've been directing my foredeck to leave the topping lift attached and store the pole clipped to a chainplate with the topper also running through the rear jaw. That allows the genoa to run over the spin gear, but that also means that with the pole up, the lazy genoa sheet is over the pole. The only difficulty here is making sure foredeck knows to switch the lazy sheets on the jibes. See photo here:

51394637990_8ff7be05a5_b.jpg

To me, this is preferable because if the sheets are correctly set, all we have to do is kill the topping lift and we're ready for a tack/jibe without disconnecting anything. This saves steps on the leeward mark rounding and reduces the likelihood of skying a disconnected topping lift or dropping the pole.

I picked up this technique from a J/29 I used to race on, and I find it's not too hard to jibe the sheets if you put the new lazy sheet over your shoulder on the jibes and run the pole under the elevated sheet on its way out to the new guy. On the other hand, I find the technique is unfamiliar to even some experienced bows I sail with. Anyone have thoughts on handling the pole with overlapping headsails?

I was taught (on a dolphin btw, and then carrying it to the Wanderer) to put the lazy sheet on my shoulder before the gybe, and when end for ending the pole, to slip the sheet on as I unclipped the pole. This kept it outside the topping lift so on a douse everything was good. Worked great. Also, we always left the pole attached to the ring with the ring as low as it would go and the topping lift in the jaws. On the hoist, I'd open the jaw to get the topping lift out, lift the ring to the correct height and bob's your uncle.

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As others have mentioned, strongly advocate setting up to store the pole on the boom.   We did this on our Cal 25 and Beneteau 36.7 with good success, and it has several advantages:

1)  Storing the pole on the boom (either in a bag or on some clever hose-covered rope loops) clears the foredeck for easy jib handling.  No need to pick a side, hump it around the downhaul, or keep track of sheets other than keeping them behind the forward hatch as per #3 below.

2)  It allows for flying the kite without a pole, which can be super helpful if you are coming into a leeward mark with a late jibe planned, or a gate where you don't want to decide on direction right away.

3)  Early pole removal allows for windward-side douses when rounding a leeward mark, which became our standard for windward-leeward racing.  Just stuff all the kite gear into the forward hatch and make sure the jib sheets are behind all the kite gear when you do it, and you are now sailing like a dinghy with no need to ever disconnect anything.  Add some length to the spin halyard and clip it mid-halyard to an aft stanchion on the windward leg.

4)  Kite can be hoisted without a pole, then the pole put onto whichever side you want, making jibe sets easy.

You may need to add some length to the topping lift and downhaul; easy enough to splice a few feet of tail on.

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7 minutes ago, davesimon said:

As others have mentioned, strongly advocate setting up to store the pole on the boom.   We did this on our Cal 25 and Beneteau 36.7 with good success, and it has several advantages:

1)  Storing the pole on the boom (either in a bag or on some clever hose-covered rope loops) clears the foredeck for easy jib handling.  No need to pick a side, hump it around the downhaul, or keep track of sheets other than keeping them behind the forward hatch as per #3 below.

2)  It allows for flying the kite without a pole, which can be super helpful if you are coming into a leeward mark with a late jibe planned, or a gate where you don't want to decide on direction right away.

3)  Early pole removal allows for windward-side douses when rounding a leeward mark, which became our standard for windward-leeward racing.  Just stuff all the kite gear into the forward hatch and make sure the jib sheets are behind all the kite gear when you do it, and you are now sailing like a dinghy with no need to ever disconnect anything.  Add some length to the spin halyard and clip it mid-halyard to an aft stanchion on the windward leg.

4)  Kite can be hoisted without a pole, then the pole put onto whichever side you want, making jibe sets easy.

You may need to add some length to the topping lift and downhaul; easy enough to splice a few feet of tail on.

Good thoughts, I'll look into boom storage options. Only disagreement is that I like companionway launching for our boat. Takes away the easy jibeset options (you can still do a floater set-jibe if the trimmer's on their game), but good to have more hands available to assist on sets/douses. Planning to get a companionway launcher bag for next year.

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we always launched from a turtle clipped to the rail. easy to set up, easy to change when the brain trust changes their mind. on a dolphin it takes 5 minutes down below to repack the kite after takedown.

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On 8/25/2021 at 8:45 AM, JohnMB said:

And as foredeck how much do you trust the back of the boat to know when you are on that last gybe :).

Experienced foredeck know when the last gybe is, even if the folks in fantasy land haven't figured it out yet.

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6 minutes ago, ryley said:

we always launched from a turtle clipped to the rail. easy to set up, easy to change when the brain trust changes their mind. on a dolphin it takes 5 minutes down below to repack the kite after takedown.

Early season we run short courses (2 races per night, twice around per race), and that's coincidentally when we're least polished as a crew. My feeling is that the more things we can put away ready to use again and the fewer steps per task, the better. Also, we don't have lifelines, though I'm probably adding them this offseason.

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4 minutes ago, BOKSAROX said:

I raced on one extensively in the 70s.  Velero, out of Shennecosset YC in Groton, CT.  We won a lot of races on that Boat.  Reinhard Sarges could make that boat do anything.

I raced on Just Friends out of Ram Island in the 80s and 90s, and I felt the same way about Ed Purcell.

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8 minutes ago, BOKSAROX said:

I raced on one extensively in the 70s.  Velero, out of Shennecosset YC in Groton, CT.  We won a lot of races on that Boat.  Reinhard Sarges could make that boat do anything.

 

3 minutes ago, ryley said:

I raced on Just Friends out of Ram Island in the 80s and 90s, and I felt the same way about Ed Purcell.

I'm an ex-Mudhead myself, now sailing in northeast Wisconsin. Very fortunate to cut my keelboat teeth in that fleet. If you look closely at my new main you'll see a familiar sailmaker and sailor to those parts.

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1 hour ago, davesimon said:

As others have mentioned, strongly advocate setting up to store the pole on the boom.   We did this on our Cal 25 and Beneteau 36.7 with good success, and it has several advantages:

1)  Storing the pole on the boom (either in a bag or on some clever hose-covered rope loops) clears the foredeck for easy jib handling.  No need to pick a side, hump it around the downhaul, or keep track of sheets other than keeping them behind the forward hatch as per #3 below.

2)  It allows for flying the kite without a pole, which can be super helpful if you are coming into a leeward mark with a late jibe planned, or a gate where you don't want to decide on direction right away.

3)  Early pole removal allows for windward-side douses when rounding a leeward mark, which became our standard for windward-leeward racing.  Just stuff all the kite gear into the forward hatch and make sure the jib sheets are behind all the kite gear when you do it, and you are now sailing like a dinghy with no need to ever disconnect anything.  Add some length to the spin halyard and clip it mid-halyard to an aft stanchion on the windward leg.

4)  Kite can be hoisted without a pole, then the pole put onto whichever side you want, making jibe sets easy.

You may need to add some length to the topping lift and downhaul; easy enough to splice a few feet of tail on.

Couldn't have said it any better.

However...

1. You'll need to add gear to the boom to hold the pole, and you'll have to add it on both sides.

2. If the pole sits on the wrong side of the boom it can be a little tricky for the fordeck guy to bring it from leeward to windward (approaching the upwind mark) in order to set it...

2.b. ...especially if you set and douse the spin (and its sheets and its halyard) from the companionway and it is on the wrong side also. Approaching an upwnd mark, good small-boat bowmen don't mind diving into the companionway, unclipping the sheets and halyard from the spinaker, carrying the shackles outside the jib sheets and around the forestay to the other side, and reattaching them to the correct corners of the spinnaker again.

3. See my comment further upthread.

 

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Experienced foredeck know when the last gybe is, even if the folks in fantasy land haven't figured it out yet.

Not with a gate, I remember one tiller moron changing bags halfway through the drop.  Fortunately we were in zero trust mode and had the pole stowed.

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On 8/25/2021 at 8:12 AM, Sisu3360 said:

We do drop it, but that doesn't eliminate the need to switch the sheets unless you want to re-run the genoa sheets, disconnect the topper, or bring the pole back on the douses (difficult for us because we don't have much of a cockpit). Basically, for this scheme to work you always need the genoa gear on top of the spinnaker gear. Here's a post-set photo (excuse the overtrim):

May be an image of boat racing, sailboat and nature

What's up with all the man buns?

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9 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Experienced foredeck know when the last gybe is, even if the folks in fantasy land haven't figured it out yet.

And they get it right about 50% of the time!

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8 hours ago, Tax Man said:

Not with a gate, I remember one tiller moron changing bags halfway through the drop.  Fortunately we were in zero trust mode and had the pole stowed.

Eggzactly.  Good foredeck knows when to expect stupidity from the back of the boat, and acts accordingly to protect their ass and reputation.  

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5 hours ago, armchairadmiral said:

Run spin through the front hatch.You'll find it much easier once you've worked out a routine. Reduces cockpit shambles  mark rounding too. Drop into bag set up in front hatch If spin on wrong side for next set just run hatch bag forward to pulpit.

Might be a little off the wall, but what would it take to run a retrieval line system? Our foredeck hatch is just ahead of the mast, so probably not ideally placed to do that. I don’t think there would be a way to take up the full height of the kite down below, but I don’t know much about how they work (I used one a few times on an E-Scow).

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Polite disagreement as follows:

However...

1. You'll need to add gear to the boom to hold the pole, and you'll have to add it on both sides.

Nope, just one side.  We used starboard as on windward/leewards that is the high side and so it is a bit easier, but no problem when in the other direction.

2. If the pole sits on the wrong side of the boom it can be a little tricky for the fordeck guy to bring it from leeward to windward (approaching the upwind mark) in order to set it...

Nope, never had a problem on either our Cal25, 36.7, or the other boats I sail on that use this method.   Just lean on the mast and pull the pole out and forward parallel to the boom. 

2.b. ...especially if you set and douse the spin (and its sheets and its halyard) from the companionway and it is on the wrong side also. Approaching an upwnd mark, good small-boat bowmen don't mind diving into the companionway, unclipping the sheets and halyard from the spinaker, carrying the shackles outside the jib sheets and around the forestay to the other side, and reattaching them to the correct corners of the spinnaker again.

Advantage of forward hatch launch and douse.  If the kite is on the windward side for a launch, get someone on the halyard for a quick hoist.  gather the kite in your arms, walk the whole bundle forward to the forestay, and give it a good toss as the halyard person makes quick work of the hoist  Then casually stroll back to the mast, extract the pole from the boom, and set it.   Yes, this can be done in strong wind, noting that having a tweaker on the guy side can help. 

Big advantages to a boat that is comfortable with pole-free hoists and douses.  Standard w/l douse sequence is jib up, pole down, kite down to windward.

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10 hours ago, davesimon said:

Polite disagreement as follows:

However...

1. You'll need to add gear to the boom to hold the pole, and you'll have to add it on both sides.

Nope, just one side.  We used starboard as on windward/leewards that is the high side and so it is a bit easier, but no problem when in the other direction.

2. If the pole sits on the wrong side of the boom it can be a little tricky for the fordeck guy to bring it from leeward to windward (approaching the upwind mark) in order to set it...

Nope, never had a problem on either our Cal25, 36.7, or the other boats I sail on that use this method.   Just lean on the mast and pull the pole out and forward parallel to the boom. 

2.b. ...especially if you set and douse the spin (and its sheets and its halyard) from the companionway and it is on the wrong side also. Approaching an upwnd mark, good small-boat bowmen don't mind diving into the companionway, unclipping the sheets and halyard from the spinaker, carrying the shackles outside the jib sheets and around the forestay to the other side, and reattaching them to the correct corners of the spinnaker again.

Advantage of forward hatch launch and douse.  If the kite is on the windward side for a launch, get someone on the halyard for a quick hoist.  gather the kite in your arms, walk the whole bundle forward to the forestay, and give it a good toss as the halyard person makes quick work of the hoist  Then casually stroll back to the mast, extract the pole from the boom, and set it.   Yes, this can be done in strong wind, noting that having a tweaker on the guy side can help. 

Big advantages to a boat that is comfortable with pole-free hoists and douses.  Standard w/l douse sequence is jib up, pole down, kite down to windward.

Ok, ok maybe it comes down to personal taste. I come from Dingies, Solings and Dragons that are raced two- or three-up. (Interestingly, many Dragons are abandoning their forward hatches for the spinnaker and revert to companionway setting but we’ll leave that out for now…) What I described is standard there, although admittedly, we had the pole on the starboard side of the boom about 90% of the time. (A little less when beercan racing around navigational marks.) Back in the day many boats had two poles, one on each side of the boom… 

Anyway, I am just learning to sail my new boat, which is a little bigger but we still sail it with three or four guys. We will definitely try the pole-free windward launch/douse from the forward hatch. You’re not the only one who recommended it to us. :lol: 

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