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7 hours ago, slug zitski said:

What do the experts say about natural immunity ?

My friend of 45 years and retired work bud and his wife got COVID about six weeks ago, at a party at his brother-in-law's place. His BIL was coughing fairly good, my old bud called me and told me about his BIL being sick. I told him to get the heck out of there quick - but they stayed. Besides my bud and his wife getting infected, others became infected too.

His unvaccinated BIL died in the hospital several weeks later. My bud and his wife went to the same hospital, tested positive and were sent home, because the hospital was full of COVID patients.

My bud fought the COVID at home for 10 days, his wife is just now slowly recovering. Luckily the COVID didn't end in COVID Pneumonia for both of them. A couple of weeks ago my buddy informed me, since he'd beat the COVID, he was immune. I then informed him that he had actually almost 2.5 times of getting it again vs someone who'd become infected, then later got vaccinated. Then I sent him the following text. 

"Scroll down to the last paragraph in the CDC website discussion on the subject. > These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection."

CDC - Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 after COVID-19 Vaccination (after being infected)

 

 

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About 2.5% of health care workers in BC are now on unpaid leave because they are not vaccinated.   They will be terminated if not vaccinated by a certain date.   Our provincial health officer: 

IF the consumption in the US actually had anything to do about lack of consumption elsewhere, I'd agree with you. But like starving kids in Africa, whether Johnny finishes his veggies or not, that kid

I think the number for herd immunity  is going to turn out to be closer to 90%. Vaccinated. .No science on my part. Our little town is teaching that level and we have fraction of the cases of the town

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

In the US almost 45 million people have been diagnosed and recovered from Covid 

They now have natural immunity 

It would be best if you heeded Fah Kiew Tu's advice.

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

In the US almost 45 million people have been diagnosed and recovered from Covid 

They now have natural immunity 

Which is actually not as effective as the immunity acquired by vaccine. Lower antibody count, fewer types of antibodies, higher rate of reinfection (IOW more people become seriously ill with COVID a second time than after vaccination)

~ 160 million vaccinated + ~ 45 million recovered = only 2/3 of the US population, in other words still PLENTY of fuel for this fire. Not even close to over yet.

- DSK

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20 minutes ago, boomer said:

My friend of 45 years and retired work bud and his wife got COVID about six weeks ago, at a party at his brother-in-law's place. His BIL was coughing fairly good, my old bud called me and told me about his BIL being sick. I told him to get the heck out of there quick - but they stayed. Besides my bud and his wife getting infected, others became infected too.

His unvaccinated BIL died in the hospital several weeks later. My bud and his wife went to the same hospital, tested positive and were sent home, because the hospital was full of COVID patients.

My bud fought the COVID at home for 10 days, his wife is just now slowly recovering. Luckily the COVID didn't end in COVID Pneumonia for both of them. A couple of weeks ago my buddy informed me, since he'd beat the COVID, he was immune. I then informed him that he had actually almost 2.5 times of getting it again vs someone who'd become infected, then later got vaccinated. Then I sent him the following text. 

"Scroll down to the last paragraph in the CDC website discussion on the subject. > These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection."

CDC - Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 after COVID-19 Vaccination (after being infected)

 

 

Re-infection has been a problem since the beginning, and likely to be significantly worse with the Delta variant. Early reports out of Korea said that patients not only caught it twice but the second time was worse. A small number but still a higher percentage than the number of breakthrough infections.

Thanks for telling this story.

"Science helps you fly to the moon, religion (and political ideology) helps you fly airplanes into buildings."

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Which is actually not as effective as the immunity acquired by vaccine. Lower antibody count, fewer types of antibodies, higher rate of reinfection (IOW more people become seriously ill with COVID a second time than after vaccination)

~ 160 million vaccinated + ~ 45 million recovered = only 2/3 of the US population, in other words still PLENTY of fuel for this fire. Not even close to over yet.

- DSK

Yeah, and we can't add them together as I know a few people who had the infection AND are getting the jab. They really don't want that infection again. 

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1 hour ago, boomer said:

My friend of 45 years and retired work bud and his wife got COVID about six weeks ago, at a party at his brother-in-law's place. His BIL was coughing fairly good, my old bud called me and told me about his BIL being sick. I told him to get the heck out of there quick - but they stayed. Besides my bud and his wife getting infected, others became infected too.

His unvaccinated BIL died in the hospital several weeks later. My bud and his wife went to the same hospital, tested positive and were sent home, because the hospital was full of COVID patients.

My bud fought the COVID at home for 10 days, his wife is just now slowly recovering. Luckily the COVID didn't end in COVID Pneumonia for both of them. A couple of weeks ago my buddy informed me, since he'd beat the COVID, he was immune. I then informed him that he had actually almost 2.5 times of getting it again vs someone who'd become infected, then later got vaccinated. Then I sent him the following text. 

"Scroll down to the last paragraph in the CDC website discussion on the subject. > These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection."

CDC - Reduced Risk of Reinfection with SARS-CoV-2 after COVID-19 Vaccination (after being infected)

 

 

 

DFBC9CB8-CFCE-49C8-88B3-BD0F37B7C6B2.jpeg

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5 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

 

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The logical conclusion from this is to get the vaccine even if you have had the disease unless there is some compelling reason not to.  While there is doubt - "natural infection MAY provide similar protection" - why take the chance?

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Because vaccine  is in short supply 

globally millions of vulnerable people have no access 

yet American officials and the media  are pushing for child vaccination , a third shot booster and fail to acknowledge natural immunity 

820C0CC0-B462-4499-8D66-29A5965D2821.png

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49 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Because vaccine  is in short supply 

globally millions of vulnerable people have no access 

yet American officials and the media  are pushing for child vaccination , a third shot booster and fail to acknowledge natural immunity 

820C0CC0-B462-4499-8D66-29A5965D2821.png

IF the consumption in the US actually had anything to do about lack of consumption elsewhere, I'd agree with you. But like starving kids in Africa, whether Johnny finishes his veggies or not, that kid will still be starving. 

Like food, we have a distribution problem, not really a supply problem.

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6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

In the US almost 45 million people have been diagnosed and recovered from Covid 

They now have natural immunity 

You forgot the 680k of those who died, the hundreds of thousands with long covid, and the hundreds of thousands with other serious consequences like damaged lungs. Not to mention enormous hospital costs and irreversible damage to families who have lost fathers, mothers, and even children. Just read this site for a few minutes. Vaccination is a far better way to contain this pandemic.

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

 

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3 hours ago, TheDragon said:

You forgot the 680k of those who died, the hundreds of thousands with long covid, and the hundreds of thousands with other serious consequences like damaged lungs. Not to mention enormous hospital costs and irreversible damage to families who have lost fathers, mothers, and even children. Just read this site for a few minutes. Vaccination is a far better way to contain this pandemic.

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

 

Slug's just desperately fishing for reasons to justify his selfish decision not to get vaccinated. He doesn't actually give a fuck about anyone else including his family because he thinks he's 'speshul' and nothing bad will come of his refusal.

Lots of people have thought that. Quite a few of them are dying in ICU's right now. Many more will.

As I said, before you get natural immunity, flawed as that may be, first you have to get the disease AND recover from it.

Lot of shit to go through just to avoid a couple of small injections.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Slug's just desperately fishing for reasons to justify his selfish decision not to get vaccinated.

 

FKT

Im pretty sure Slug posted that he has been vaccinated and that he intends to get the booster shot.

The argument that Wealthy America should not be moving towards booster shots when so many other countries are still short of the vaccine is a recurring one.

It is somewhat weakened by some of those same countries criticizing our covid response. Despite all our flaws , we moved faster than most in producing huge quantities of the most effective vaccines, and US companies coordinated large sophisticated trials while AZ stumbled around making mistake after mistake.. 

I do think this needs a global solution and the larger scientific nations have to do their bit.....

But am I the only American who is a bit tired of hearing kiwis (KSB) and a few Aussies (not many)  criticize our FDA supervised trials and accuse us of being an unscientific nation. I havent seen any noteworthy NZ trials.....and honestly if you dont want to use vaccines manufactured and/or brought to you by US companies supervised by US agencies, feel free to shoot yourself up with the Chinese or Russian vaccine.  Both China and Russia tested their vaccines on military personnel and they say the results have been marvelous.

No, seriously, we are happy that our accelerated vaccine development is helping the whole world....and Im glad Pfizer, Moderna and J and J  vaccines are being made available worldwide. I like that this is an international forum. We are all in this together. 

Its just that seppo bashing gets old.

 

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58 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

But am I the only American who is a bit tired of hearing kiwis (KSB) and a few Aussies (not many)  criticize our FDA supervised trials and accuse us of being an unscientific nation. I havent seen any noteworthy NZ trials.....and honestly if you dont want to use vaccines manufactured and/or brought to you by US companies supervised by US agencies, feel free to shoot yourself up with the Chinese or Russian vaccine.  Both China and Russia tested their vaccines on military personnel and they say the results have been marvelous.

No, seriously, we are happy that our accelerated vaccine development is helping the whole world....and Im glad Pfizer, Moderna and J and J  vaccines are being made available worldwide. I like that this is an international forum. We are all in this together. 

Its just that seppo bashing gets old.

NZ did try to develop a vaccine and provided funds to help about 5 other groups around the world who were developing vaccines.  As a small country with a population of 5m we cannot complete the testing because there are not enough people to verify the results, we always have to go to larger countries for final testing.

The US did a great job in developing a suitable vaccine in record time and this has been a big help in controlling the pandemic around the world. Unfortunately the USA has failed to get it's population to accept the vaccine because of an inept leadership which has no idea about how to exploit such a valuable resource.

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2 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

NZ did try to develop a vaccine and provided funds to help about 5 other groups around the world who were developing vaccines.  As a small country with a population of 5m we cannot complete the testing because there are not enough people to verify the results, we always have to go to larger countries for final testing.

The US did a great job in developing a suitable vaccine in record time and this has been a big help in controlling the pandemic around the world. Unfortunately the USA has failed to get it's population to accept the vaccine because of an inept leadership which has no idea about how to exploit such a valuable resource.

A small correction, Pfizer is a german developed vaccine with American manufacturing and distribution.

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

But am I the only American who is a bit tired of hearing kiwis (KSB) and a few Aussies (not many)  criticize our FDA supervised trials and accuse us of being an unscientific nation. I havent seen any noteworthy NZ trials.....and honestly if you dont want to use vaccines manufactured and/or brought to you by US companies supervised by US agencies, feel free to shoot yourself up with the Chinese or Russian vaccine.  Both China and Russia tested their vaccines on military personnel and they say the results have been marvelous.

You haven't heard me saying any of that.

Observations that there are far too many stupid people who refuse to believe in scientific method and prefer to believe charlatans and quacks, sure. Per capita, it seems to me that there are more US citizens than Australian ones that have drunk that particular Kool Aid.

I'm a semi-retired scientist/software designer working with medical screening systems. I believe in the numbers. Vaccines work and are our only current way to turn this from a pandemic to something we can live with. I've no time for those who are still denying this.

FKT

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

I believe in the numbers. Vaccines work and are our only current way to turn this from a pandemic to something we can live with. 

FKT

Amen brother.   It really is that simple.

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Got a phone call yesterday from my local clinic. My primary physician, with whom I had an appointment October 29, has been moved full-time to care of COVID patients. Strong indication that our clinic and hospital is under stress. 

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Bunch of kids at our middle school have covid and my 11 year old daughter and ex-wife both tested positive yesterday while my 13 year old daughter is negative. Ex is vaccinated, but my younger daughter is too young yet and has a medical condition. Going to get the older one vaccinated this week. 

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38 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Bunch of kids at our middle school have covid and my 11 year old daughter and ex-wife both tested positive yesterday while my 13 year old daughter is negative. Ex is vaccinated, but my younger daughter is too young yet and has a medical condition. Going to get the older one vaccinated this week. 

sorry to hear it, good friend's 18 year old had a breakthrough infection, the illness wasn't bad but he was suffering from less energy for about a month after. Seems to have fully recovered now. All it took was some new co-eds (he just started college) to say "hi" on drop off day...

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I think my kid is going to make a full recovery quickly. She is a powerful, big boned, athletic girl and her specialist Dr. said she should be fine. I remember the first day at my co-Ed college after 4 years of Jesuit boys only education.

Who needs Latin, archeology, anthropology and physics when there are cute girls everywhere but there!

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A little nugget from our local county vaccination website - https://www.c-uphd.org/covid-vaccination-dashboard.html. We have about 54% of entire population vaccinated, so these numbers should be roughly 50:50, but of course they are not. Vaccination provides great protection against infection, but as was noted from the getgo, not perfect, and apparently waning a little, hence boosters. Hospitalization and death figures are less easily obtained, but the latest in our newspaper was that all deaths this fall were in unvaccinated, with only a few vaccinated folk hospitalized.

I know two youngsters who were vaccinated early (they are nurses) and just finished an epic bicycle ride across the northern parts of the country and right at the end in Maine started feeling ill. Got tested and both came back positive. Both have recovered in a matter of a few days, but it did mess up their plans for a family and friends celebration of completing their trip, as they are still quarantining.

1010539077_ScreenShot2021-10-01at9_50_26AM.png.5c778ebd0ee37550c0d5ddd22ef10142.png

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Our local covid ICU is now full; 100% of the patients are unvaccinated.  This pisses me off because I have a good friend waiting for bypass surgery.  My friend could have an MI and die waiting because there are no ICU beds available - the non-covid ICU is full too. 

Patience with the anti-vaxxers is growing thin...

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Since I travel internationally I am frequently submitting to Covid testing

todays test ...negative 

I was tested at a port facility for seaman.... pretty busy test center 

I asked the test giver how many positives does she record 

no positives in the past three month 

zero 

 

makes you think 

 

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Since I travel internationally I am frequently submitting to Covid testing

todays test ...negative 

I was tested at a port facility for seaman.... pretty busy test center 

I asked the test giver how many positives does she record 

no positives in the past three month 

zero 

 

makes you think 

 

 

Makes me think that testing center is almost certainly doing something wrong.

- DSK

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8 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Since I travel internationally I am frequently submitting to Covid testing

todays test ...negative 

I was tested at a port facility for seaman.... pretty busy test center 

I asked the test giver how many positives does she record 

no positives in the past three month 

zero 

 

makes you think 

 

Where is this, and what does it make you think?

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30 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

Where is this, and what does it make you think?

In many countries the media has made Covid the news story ... a paranoia

when I open the newspaper in the US I  get a Vietnam  war  style Covid death count 

I’m presently in Spain, in today’s local newspaper I saw no “Covid “ news 

naturally  , Covid is present in Spain

about the same as everywhere in the world 

I suspect if you went to a port control Covid test center in the US you would get the same reply when asking the technician about their observed Covid positivity rate  .. probably low or no Covid positives 

I’m not sure what to think 

 

 

 

 

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I call bullshit. Spain had a big surge this summer, so for a testing center to have no positives for the past three months is simply not credible. You seem to be one of those here who constantly wants to minimize covid. As I just posted in another thread, one of my kiting buddies is going to the funeral of her uncle in North Carolina this weekend, who was unvaccinated, and her aunt is likely next. We are over 710,000 dead, is that not enough for you?

 

Screen Shot 2021-10-11 at 1.48.55 PM.png

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12 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

I call bullshit. Spain had a big surge this summer, so for a testing center to have no positives for the past three months is simply not credible. You seem to be one of those here who constantly wants to minimize covid. As I just posted in another thread, one of my kiting buddies is going to the funeral of her uncle in North Carolina this weekend, who was unvaccinated, and her aunt is likely next. We are over 710,000 dead, is that not enough for you?

 

Screen Shot 2021-10-11 at 1.48.55 PM.png

I guess  that you must go to the test technician at port control  and call them a liar 

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30 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I guess  that you must go to the test technician at port control  and call them a liar 

Some possible explanations:

1- you're a covid denier yourself and like to repeat stories that downplay it

2- the test technician told you some BS to get rid of you quickly

3- there is something wrong with their test or procedure

It's possible that a port has had no covid for months, but I doubt it very strongly. It would be nice if true but actual data from everywhere else makes it extremely unlikely.

- DSK

 

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40 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Some possible explanations:

1- you're a covid denier yourself and like to repeat stories that downplay it

2- the test technician told you some BS to get rid of you quickly

3- there is something wrong with their test or procedure

It's possible that a port has had no covid for months, but I doubt it very strongly. It would be nice if true but actual data from everywhere else makes it extremely unlikely.

- DSK

 

Spain's current 7-day rolling positivity rate is 2.4%

So, the either the tech lied, or you are.

You can make up your own mind about that. We have. 

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13 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Since I travel internationally I am frequently submitting to Covid testing

todays test ...negative 

I was tested at a port facility for seaman.... pretty busy test center 

I asked the test giver how many positives does she record 

no positives in the past three month 

zero 

 

makes you think 

 

And yet locally we have international seamen still testing positive and infection spreading throughout the crew.

 

"Five crew members aboard the bulk carrier, IMABARI QUEEN, have tested positive to COVID-19.

The vessel was at anchor off Skardon River, far north Queensland, waiting to load bauxite. Last port was Machong, China (24 Sept).
 
IMABARI QUEEN is not permitted to berth, and persons are not permitted to board or disembark the vessel.

The vessel has been repositioned to Weipa anchorage for management and further testing of the crew.

One crew member's health condition has worsened. Medevac arrangements have been made to have the crew member transported to Sunshine Coast COVID-19 hospital today (Oct 8) under strict infection control processes.

The remaining four COVID-19 positive crew are clinically well and will remain isolated on board the vessel. Queensland Health will continue to closely monitor all crew on board."

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Some possible explanations:

1- you're a covid denier yourself and like to repeat stories that downplay it

2- the test technician told you some BS to get rid of you quickly

3- there is something wrong with their test or procedure

It's possible that a port has had no covid for months, but I doubt it very strongly. It would be nice if true but actual data from everywhere else makes it extremely unlikely.

- DSK

 

4. The test technician may only do the swabbing, not the testing and notification of positives.

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Actually, while most of my kiting friends are indeed of a similar antiquity to me (think Medicare), a few are younger and this one is early 30s, and her uncle and aunt are also new to Medicare. Problem is they live in rural North Carolina, vote Republican, and like KSFB have drunk the coolaid and were at least skeptical enough of, if not downright resistant to, getting vaccinated, and now it has cost one of them their life and probably will take the other too. Much like the folk detailed below. Perhaps KSFB should peruse this site a little to see what his future might look like if he persists in his stupidity of questioning the value of covid vaccination.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HermanCainAward/

And if it is frustrating not to see their faces and learn their names and locations, try this one

https://www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

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On 8/27/2021 at 12:31 AM, ShortForBob said:

Must be a lovely place  to live.

Could I ask what the demographic looks like in terms of education and income? 

I'm just guessing here, but I'd guess Guilford, Madison, Clinton, or old Lyme. Demographics will be 90%+ Caucasian with a high school, or bachelors degree, Income will be in the upper 5 digits for an average, Although Guilford and Madison will be higher.

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Went in for a blood test today, preceding my biannual wellness examine tomorrow. Only two people were in the office. Receptionist, after a long wait, informed me I needed to reschedule 10+ days out, as the rest of the office was sick and getting Covid tested today. Oh great. It's surreal up here.

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Wondering where "up here" is, Varan.

Local paper just summarized some local hospital system stats. There have been 2,631 patients who survived and 501 deaths, so that's 1/6 who ended up in hospital died. No age stats however, presumably those were generally older and more comorbidities. Currently 81 in hospital of which 17 are vaccinated, and 18 of those are in ICU with 2 of them vaccinated. Our county is around 55% fully vaccinated at this point, but around 75% vaccinated for older folk over 60, so assuming most of those in hospital and ICU are older folk, those large numbers come from the remaining stupid 25% who remain unvaccinated. Just like everywhere else, vaccination protects very well against hospitalization and death.

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Nope, nothing to see here. Seafarers the world over are immune to covid...

 

On 10/12/2021 at 9:33 AM, Ncik said:

And yet locally we have international seamen still testing positive and infection spreading throughout the crew.

 

"Five crew members aboard the bulk carrier, IMABARI QUEEN, have tested positive to COVID-19.

The vessel was at anchor off Skardon River, far north Queensland, waiting to load bauxite. Last port was Machong, China (24 Sept).
 
IMABARI QUEEN is not permitted to berth, and persons are not permitted to board or disembark the vessel.

The vessel has been repositioned to Weipa anchorage for management and further testing of the crew.

One crew member's health condition has worsened. Medevac arrangements have been made to have the crew member transported to Sunshine Coast COVID-19 hospital today (Oct 8) under strict infection control processes.

The remaining four COVID-19 positive crew are clinically well and will remain isolated on board the vessel. Queensland Health will continue to closely monitor all crew on board."

 

Following further testing of the vessel on Friday 8 October, an additional three crew members aboard the bulk carrier, IMABARI QUEEN, have tested positive to COVID-19.

This brings the total number of COVID positive crew to 8.

The vessel is currently being managed by Maritime Safety Queensland and Queensland Health at anchor off Weipa. IMABARI QUEEN is not permitted to berth, and persons are not permitted to board or disembark the vessel.
 
One crew member was medically evacuated from the vessel on Friday 8 October and transported to a Sunshine Coast COVID-19 hospital under strict infection control processes.

The remaining 7 COVID-19 positive crew are clinically well and will remain isolated on board the vessel. Queensland Health will continue to closely monitor all crew on board.


 

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On 10/11/2021 at 7:47 PM, slug zitski said:

Since I travel internationally I am frequently submitting to Covid testing

todays test ...negative 

I was tested at a port facility for seaman.... pretty busy test center 

I asked the test giver how many positives does she record 

no positives in the past three month 

zero 

 

makes you think 

 

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On 10/11/2021 at 12:37 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Some possible explanations:

1- you're a covid denier yourself and like to repeat stories that downplay it

2- the test technician told you some BS to get rid of you quickly

3- there is something wrong with their test or procedure

It's possible that a port has had no covid for months, but I doubt it very strongly. It would be nice if true but actual data from everywhere else makes it extremely unlikely.

- DSK

 

It depends on who comes in to get tested. Some want a test.  Others don’t, and will lie about how they feel, how others feel, whether they’ll allow someone else to go get tested, etc etc, so we’re getting extremely skewed samples.  Add in asymptomatic spreaders and you have the shit show we have now, at least here.  We need universal testing, but that is not happening.  As a result, if you care about whether you get COVID, the only rational response is to assume you have it, that everyone else has it, and act accordingly. (Still)  But tests are being rationed around here- lack of chemical supplies for the tests.  

In local news, 17 new cases on one of the neighboring islands, 15 of them from one gathering.  This is pretty huge for around here.  Anti vax & anti mask demonstrations continue, better masks are available free all over the place for those who care, and running away from the unmasked isn’t frowned upon by the masked.  
 

It’s weird- there are construction guys who will wear an n95 for dust, but not for COVID.  So seeing a lot of vented masks (still) around indoors where required, which is no better than spitting in somebodies face.  One of the wearers threatened me when I pointed this out at the local store, and a basket of surgical masks were right at the door.  Staff did nothing. I think they are tired and scared.  I was wearing an n95, and left the store, along with 4 other people.  We left our groceries on the counter.  

 

 

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One thing that the anti-vaxx trolls have in common is their tactic of asking normal people to go do some research on a side issue.  Once you have done the research and proved them wrong again  they just ignore their wrongness and ask another question requiring more research.  They never back up their own claims with science - it is always some retired doctor or expert in a different field speaking in some authoritative way about something they are not qualified to comment on or a  link to an article from a discredited fringe website. 

Is it really worth continuing these discussions?  I would argue that it isn't.  I haven't seen any of our favorite anti-vax posters even acknowledge when they have been proven to have have posted BS.

There is no consciousness raising going on here.  Just an endless loop of post anti-vax BS - refute - post more anti-vax BS - refute.

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7 hours ago, Rain Man said:

One thing that the anti-vaxx trolls have in common is their tactic of asking normal people to go do some research on a side issue.  Once you have done the research and proved them wrong again  they just ignore their wrongness and ask another question requiring more research.  They never back up their own claims with science - it is always some retired doctor or expert in a different field speaking in some authoritative way about something they are not qualified to comment on or a  link to an article from a discredited fringe website. 

Is it really worth continuing these discussions?  I would argue that it isn't.  I haven't seen any of our favorite anti-vax posters even acknowledge when they have been proven to have have posted BS.

There is no consciousness raising going on here.  Just an endless loop of post anti-vax BS - refute - post more anti-vax BS - refute.

Agreed.

My goal here is to make sure that anybody looking at the trolls' posts and thinking "Hmm, maybe they're right" will also see clearly how dishonest and stupid they are.

Leading the horses to water, hopefully......

- DSK

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I think we all sometimes lose sight of how we are all in this together and mankind will always have divergent views.  As you all know, I really dislike it when people bring politics into medicine.  I am saddened by the widening divide in politics in America and one of the effects is that people are prone to insult each other more than we did 10 years ago. 

I do not hate KSFB. Nor do I care about his politics. I disagree with him and I am very critical of many of his views of modern medicine and modern science. I challenge him frequently when he makes unsubstantiated claims and ask him for sources. But I need to live by my own values online as I do in real life so I try and do so without insult  . I might show some exasperation but it is with the view not the person and I have avoided labels.  

FWIW I am not anti-Ivermectin.  I would love for a repurposed, widely available and inexpensive drug to turn out to be effective against Covid. However, it has been embraced with an almost political fervor that is unsupported by science, that has hindered rather than helped investigations into the drug.  I am coming to the view that it is unlikely that Ivermectin will turn out to be effective.  Our government is making hundreds of millions of dollars available for research into covid for both basic research and clinical research. US academics have spent millions building complex computer models of the virus molecule that measures how humidity and temperature affect the stiffness and structure of the molecule in air. There has been funding available for research into existing drugs. I find myself thinking that if Ivermectin was effective, we would have heard about it by now.  There would have been at least preliminary results from a credible, well documented clinical trial conducted by a respected institution.  The NIH would be allocating funds to protocol studies and the FDA would be fast tracking an EUA to amend the label. Obviously, I would love to be wrong.  But in the meantime, research into discovering treatment therapies for covid continue.

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Just now, EYESAILOR said:

FWIW I am not anti-Ivermectin.  I would love for a repurposed, widely available and inexpensive drug to turn out to be effective against Covid. However, it has been embraced with an almost political fervor that is unsupported by science, that has hindered rather than helped investigations into the drug.  I am coming to the view that it is unlikely that Ivermectin will turn out to be effective.  Our government is making hundreds of millions of dollars available for research into covid for both basic research and clinical research. US academics have spent millions building complex computer models of the virus molecule that measures how humidity and temperature affect the stiffness and structure of the molecule in air. There has been funding available for research into existing drugs. I find myself thinking that if Ivermectin was effective, we would have heard about it by now.  There would have been at least preliminary results from a credible, well documented clinical trial conducted by a respected institution.  The NIH would be allocating funds to protocol studies and the FDA would be fast tracking an EUA to amend the label. Obviously, I would love to be wrong.  But in the meantime, research into discovering treatment therapies for covid continue.

The very fact that many Ivermectin advocates refer to the hocus pocus science of Tess Lawrie makes me less optimistic that there is more reliable evidence of  its effectiveness.  Again, I would love to be wrong. Truly....it would be one of those occasions where I would go "Wonderful .....I was wrong!"

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I hate all those counterproductive posters and endless do loops of hocus pocus and but what abouts. I think some people feel so marginalized by life that they feel the  "special knowledge" and "insider status" they get from YouTube cranks and pseudoexperts makes their lives worth living.  They aren't.

World Trade Center conspiracy theorists morphed into epidemiology theorists. For the children.

The editors just let this go on for the views.  Hon and its elk should be erased. But SA doesn't have the decency of Twitter.

 

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17 hours ago, Rain Man said:

One thing that the anti-vaxx trolls have in common is their tactic of asking normal people to go do some research on a side issue.  Once you have done the research and proved them wrong again  they just ignore their wrongness and ask another question requiring more research.  They never back up their own claims with science - it is always some retired doctor or expert in a different field speaking in some authoritative way about something they are not qualified to comment on or a  link to an article from a discredited fringe website. 

Is it really worth continuing these discussions?  I would argue that it isn't.  I haven't seen any of our favorite anti-vax posters even acknowledge when they have been proven to have have posted BS.

There is no consciousness raising going on here.  Just an endless loop of post anti-vax BS - refute - post more anti-vax BS - refute.

If no-one refutes the stupid claims, they become normal and gain legitimacy. Imagine this whole corona anarchy if it was only stupid posts. Scary thought.

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It does remind me of a certain wealthy Australian business owner/helicopter pilot/head of CAA who would attend meetings and occasionally spout pure bullshit just to see if there was anyone in the room paying attention and willing to challenge him.  

I do agree that the anti-vaxx BS needs to be challenged when it is presented in a mainstream public forum, but I honestly don't think anyone here is the least bit swayed by it.  If there is anyone following this discussion who is on the fence and wondering who to believe, please speak up.  PM me if you want.  Otherwise I think KSFB and others are just wasting people's time.  

If you want something to worry about, wander over to the gab.com cesspool and look at the top ten trending stories.  They might be influencing people, but I don't think our little CA forum matters much in the big scheme of things.

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27 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

It does remind me of a certain wealthy Australian business owner/helicopter pilot/head of CAA who would attend meetings and occasionally spout pure bullshit just to see if there was anyone in the room paying attention and willing to challenge him.  

I do agree that the anti-vaxx BS needs to be challenged when it is presented in a mainstream public forum, but I honestly don't think anyone here is the least bit swayed by it.  If there is anyone following this discussion who is on the fence and wondering who to believe, please speak up.  PM me if you want.  Otherwise I think KSFB and others are just wasting people's time.  

If you want something to worry about, wander over to the gab.com cesspool and look at the top ten trending stories.  They might be influencing people, but I don't think our little CA forum matters much in the big scheme of things.

Stupidity is contagious, so the mirror needs to be held up to it everywhere.

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19 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I think we all sometimes lose sight of how we are all in this together and mankind will always have divergent views.  As you all know, I really dislike it when people bring politics into medicine.  I am saddened by the widening divide in politics in America and one of the effects is that people are prone to insult each other more than we did 10 years ago. 

I do not hate KSFB. Nor do I care about his politics. I disagree with him and I am very critical of many of his views of modern medicine and modern science. I challenge him frequently when he makes unsubstantiated claims and ask him for sources. But I need to live by my own values online as I do in real life so I try and do so without insult  . I might show some exasperation but it is with the view not the person and I have avoided labels.  

FWIW I am not anti-Ivermectin.  I would love for a repurposed, widely available and inexpensive drug to turn out to be effective against Covid. However, it has been embraced with an almost political fervor that is unsupported by science, that has hindered rather than helped investigations into the drug.  I am coming to the view that it is unlikely that Ivermectin will turn out to be effective.  Our government is making hundreds of millions of dollars available for research into covid for both basic research and clinical research. US academics have spent millions building complex computer models of the virus molecule that measures how humidity and temperature affect the stiffness and structure of the molecule in air. There has been funding available for research into existing drugs. I find myself thinking that if Ivermectin was effective, we would have heard about it by now.  There would have been at least preliminary results from a credible, well documented clinical trial conducted by a respected institution.  The NIH would be allocating funds to protocol studies and the FDA would be fast tracking an EUA to amend the label. Obviously, I would love to be wrong.  But in the meantime, research into discovering treatment therapies for covid continue.

As you are medical practitioner I can see why you don't like people bringing politics into medicine.  You seem to be unaware that this is about the pandemic which is as much about politics as it is about medicine.

We all have access to the same medicine but the results differ from country to country and this is because the politics are different in the various countries and that leads to success or failure, not medicine.

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45 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

As you are medical practitioner I can see why you don't like people bringing politics into medicine.  You seem to be unaware that this is about the pandemic which is as much about politics as it is about medicine.

We all have access to the same medicine but the results differ from country to country and this is because the politics are different in the various countries and that leads to success or failure, not medicine.

Plagues are always political, cannot be seperated. They affect our civic life, they can topple gov't and rulers. For example, the Black Death of the 1300s resulted in free travel, eliminating feudal levies on most laborers, and swinging political power to the House of Commons... similar results all thru Europe.

-DSK

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4 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

As you are medical practitioner I can see why you don't like people bringing politics into medicine.  You seem to be unaware that this is about the pandemic which is as much about politics as it is about medicine.

We all have access to the same medicine but the results differ from country to country and this is because the politics are different in the various countries and that leads to success or failure, not medicine.

Perhaps I should have said "partisan politics".  i think that partisan politics hinders the battle against the pandemic.  I agree that politics in the wider sense is about electing leadership and that good leadership can get things done.

However, I think that it was inevitable that mistakes were going to be made by any leaders in any role. Much about a viral pandemic is hard to predict. We were right to try things, knowing that not every decision was going to be right in hindsight.....but that is always better than taking no decisions at all. 

The most important attribute when taking decisions in this kind of evolving situation is the ability to acknowledge a mistake and reverse a decision.  It is essential to be able to do this. All of us in medicine are always looking for data and symptoms to challenge our diagnosis.   The debilitating effect of partisan politics is that the other side jumps on any change in direction or adjustment of policy or a reversal of a decision on new data ......so that it is harder and worse, slower to alter course.

In many ways, some of the people I most admire are the ones who have quickly acknowledged a different therapy or policy without fearing about the fickle favor of public opinion.

Does that make any sense?

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5 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I'm a fan of Bezos's business skills, but that damn WaPo paywall kinda pisses me off...

The gist of the article, if you haven't been able to read it, is that compliance with vaccine mandates within health care systems and hospitals in Texas has been very high--98% in the Houston Methodist system, one of the earliest to require employee vaccination.

The governor of TX seems like a low-budget Trump with his insistence that private companies cannot mandate covid vaccination for their employees. It seems a lot of large employers in TX are going to ignore that.

Yes, let's reduce government regulation of private companies, in the interest of freedumb. Let those companies decide what is best for their employees and the people they must interact with.  Except when the gummint of TX and FL don't like what those companies decide to do or require. (Sarcasm font)

"Freedumb" is a two-edged sword, and that irony is lost on the governors of both FL and TX,

 

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and Im not making excuses for obviously dumb decisions. A dumb decision at the time is usually a dumb decision in hindsight (sending covid patients to nursing homes represents an incredible disregrad for what we already knew about the disease even back then) .  But there have been some decisions that were taken in good faith based on what we knew at the time, that turned out to be wrong ....and it doesnt help to involve partisan politics.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

and Im not making excuses for obviously dumb decisions. A dumb decision at the time is usually a dumb decision in hindsight (sending covid patients to nursing homes represents an incredible disregrad for what we already knew about the disease even back then) .  But there have been some decisions that were taken in good faith based on what we knew at the time, that turned out to be wrong ....and it doesnt help to involve partisan politics.

DeSantis in Florida made a very cold-blooded calculation that he would lose less MAGA-voters to death than he would if he publicly encouraged vaccination.

I consider that evil, regardless of political affiliation.

- DSK

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Just now, EYESAILOR said:

and Im not making excuses for obviously dumb decisions. A dumb decision at the time is usually a dumb decision in hindsight (sending covid patients to nursing homes represents an incredible disregrad for what we already knew about the disease even back then) .  But there have been some decisions that were taken in good faith based on what we knew at the time, that turned out to be wrong ....and it doesnt help to involve partisan politics.

Our knowledge is generally incomplete or imperfect at any single point in time. When what we thought was the correct approach proves to be wrong based on newer findings, we have to be willing to change course in the light of new understanding or circumstances.

That's not flip-flopping: it's growth.

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3 minutes ago, accnick said:

The gist of the article, if you haven't been able to read it, is that compliance with vaccine mandates within health care systems and hospitals in Texas has been very high--98% in the Houston Methodist system, one of the earliest to require employee vaccination.

The governor of TX seems like a low-budget Trump with his insistence that private companies cannot mandate covid vaccination for their employees. It seems a lot of large employers in TX are going to ignore that.

Yes, let's reduce government regulation of private companies, in the interest of freedumb. Let those companies decide what is best for their employees and the people they must interact with.  Except when the gummint of TX and FL don't like what those companies decide to do or require. (Sarcasm font)

"Freedumb" is a two-edged sword, and that irony is lost on the governors of both FL and TX,

 

The argument in TX is that vaccine mandates imperil the freedom of the individual to work where they want to.  I think that is a utterly fallacious argument. Employment has always been a contract between 2 person (natural or corporate).  The employer has got to want to hire you and the employee has got to want to be employed by you.  It is not enough for either one of them to want to be hired or hire. 

Absolutely we should not discriminate on the basis of race, gender etc.   but the very process of hiring depends on discriminating on the basis of qualification:

If you want a job that requires vaccination, get vaccinated.

If you want a job that requires wearing a safety helmet, put on a safety helmet.

If you want a job that requires a degree in computer science, get a degree in computer science.

Its a lot easier to get vaccinated than to get a degree in CS.

Race, gender etc........you cannot do anything about and does not impact your ability to do most jobs.  Vaccination is easy to address and does impact your ability to work in a healthcare setting.

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13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

DeSantis in Florida made a very cold-blooded calculation that he would lose less MAGA-voters to death than he would if he publicly encouraged vaccination.

I consider that evil, regardless of political affiliation.

- DSK

Okay and I obviously am not a De Santis voter......but did you congratulate him when he reversed that view back in July ? 

He took a huge amount of flak ...the left accused him of flip flopping and the far right fringe accused him of betrayal. 

Irrespective of my politics, I think he did the right thing in that speech.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Okay and I obviously am not a De Santis voter......but did you congratulate him when he reversed that view back in July ? 

He took a huge amount of flak ...the left accused him of flip flopping and the far right fringe accused him of betrayal. 

Irrespective of my politics, I think he did the right thing in that speech.

 

 

I did miss that, thanks.

He's done a couple of covid-denial anti-vax-ish statements since then though. But to be fair he should definitely get credit.

- DSK

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27 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Okay and I obviously am not a De Santis voter......but did you congratulate him when he reversed that view back in July ? 

He took a huge amount of flak ...the left accused him of flip flopping and the far right fringe accused him of betrayal. 

Irrespective of my politics, I think he did the right thing in that speech.

 

 

I was in Florida during the pandemic 

De Sanctis  did a good job rolling out the vaciine , did a good job protecting old folks and a good job managing the economy 

the left , the media , hates him

I’d expect plenty of negative coverage 

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34 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I was in Florida during the pandemic 

De Sanctus  did a good job rolling out the vaciine , did a good job protecting old folks and a good job managing the economy 

the left , the media , hates him

I’d expect plenty of negative coverage 

DeSantis was good early on at prioritizing the vaccination of older Floridians, me among them.

As is typical with him, however, he did it with one eye on the political winds. Seniors are a huge voting bloc in Florida, they turn out to vote, and they  break to the right on most issues. By prioritizing them for vaccination, he almost guaranteed support among seniors in his current campaign for re-election, as well as establishing a stronger base for his expected 2024 Presidential campaign.

Recently, however, he has de-emphasized vaccination in favor of treatments such as monoclonal antibodies, to avoid running up against the current anti-vaccination movement among the Republican base.

He has also issued executive orders  preventing any Florida business or government entity from requiring masks or proof of vaccination  to access services, to gain employment, or to maintain employment, and has issued at least one massive fine to a county for having a mask mandate in its school system.

That one could come back to bite him on the ass.

In my little town, one of the most exclusive residential enclaves--Johns Island-- and its club have mandated vaccinations for employees as well as residents who use the club's facilities. They are on his list for targeting, but it has a high concentration of both wealth and sources of funding for Republican causes, so it will be interesting to see if he follows through, or picks simpler targets such as school systems trying to protect students and employees.

It isn't that hard to decode Florida politics once you understand the underlying personalities and goals.

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Florida is 10th highest of 52 states in per capita COVID deaths. They had ample time to respond swiftly in the wake of the carnage in NY state but failed to do so. The mayor of Miami had to unilaterally issue a city wide mask mandate early in the pandemic w/o state approval, before ‘the mask issue’ achieved its current level of political football status.

Businesses, local governments, schools etc have had to butt heads with an inept governor to ensure there own safety. 

Had most local authorities and private businesses not taken matters into there own hands, I’m guessing there ranking would be worse.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/


 

 

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40 minutes ago, accnick said:

 

As is typical with him, however, he did it with one eye on the political winds.

 

I dont live in Florida so I dont know much about your options.

I vote locally for Governor and will cross party lines for the right person for the job. I vote nationally for Senators and Congress (even though I dislike one of our senators immensely)

Looking at DeSantis and Covid.  I admire him for taking a pro-vaccine stance.  I disagree with a ban on vaccine mandates for employers. It certainly would have had a negative impact on the cruise ship business which desperately needed a vaccine mandate for employees so I am not sure how that would have been good for the FL economy.  But can the mandate ban be enforced?

Disney, one of FL larger employers has ignored the ban on cruise ship vaccine passports. Norwegian won  a case against the ban (which De santis is appealing). Basically it seems the mandat ban cannot be enforced

So then I find myself wondering who will be most effective at encouraging people to get vaccinated.....and I wonder if that is De Santis rather than a Democrat.

Glad I dont live in FL....but I can see the conundrum.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I'm a fan of Bezos's business skills, but that damn WaPo paywall kinda pisses me off...

Oh sorry. Anyway, 150 were fired in Houston but they now are 98% vaxxed.

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26 minutes ago, fufkin said:

Florida is 10th highest of 52 states in per capita COVID deaths. They had ample time to respond swiftly in the wake of the carnage in NY state but failed to do so.

 

Florida is also the 2nd largest state with homes owned by NY residents .....after NY. They fled en masse to FL when the pandemic was at its worst .    One of the mistakes we should look at in hindsight, is did we have a disadvantage with federal laws that do not permit restrictions on  interstate travel in a national emergency of this sort.

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Florida is also the 2nd largest state with homes owned by NY residents .....after NY. They fled en masse to FL when the pandemic was at its worst .    One of the mistakes we should look at in hindsight, is did we have a disadvantage with federal laws that do not permit restrictions on  interstate travel in a national emergency of this sort.

Travel from New York is what hammered Puerto Rico 

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16 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Oh sorry. Anyway, 150 were fired in Houston but they now are 98% vaxxed.

No need to apologize. I pay the NYTimes online, but just don't have it in me to give Jeff (more) of my cash...

 

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8 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I'm a fan of Bezos's business skills, but that damn WaPo paywall kinda pisses me off...

Just hit the esc key repeatedly while the page opens and you get past the paywall

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  • 2 weeks later...

Slight increase in cases locally last week (dates are the start of a week, so the 227 is short one day, tomorrow). Our weather turned cold two weeks ago and folks are crowding inside in restaurants, bars, etc. I got our usual takeout Friday fish sandwiches yesterday from our favorite restaurant. It was completely packed with not a mask in sight, folks loudly talking close together. Not the staff either, despite indoor mask mandate in Illinois. I was the only one, wearing a N95 to get in and out quickly. The last thing I need is to get a breakthrough infection the day before we travel to Panama to go sailing. I hope this is not the start of a winter wave.

1484723791_ScreenShot2021-10-30at10_45_16AM.png.21c2065a93e67e7624a76e1ea57fe2f0.png

 

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4 hours ago, TheDragon said:

The last thing I need is to get a breakthrough infection the day before we travel to Panama to go sailing. I hope this is not the start of a winter wave.

LOL - so now you have an expectation that the vaccine won't stop you from getting infected?

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On 10/19/2021 at 6:50 AM, EYESAILOR said:

Florida is also the 2nd largest state with homes owned by NY residents .....after NY. They fled en masse to FL when the pandemic was at its worst .    One of the mistakes we should look at in hindsight, is did we have a disadvantage with federal laws that do not permit restrictions on  interstate travel in a national emergency of this sort.

Isn't Florida also one of the retirement Mecca's of the USA?  That is they have a higher % of the Covid-19 susceptible- the aged and obese and diabetic?

Perhaps a more accurate measure would be to adjust the death rate for age and comorbidities.

But back to your post.  Perhaps if you had restricted these at risk NY based Florida home owners to stay in NY in the cold, moist, densely populated,  polluted confines of NY more may have died? 

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12 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Isn't Florida also one of the retirement Mecca's of the USA? 

Yes

Perhaps a more accurate measure would be to adjust the death rate for age and comorbidities.

Yes.  Its important to look at covid statistics within age groups and to make sure any sample is randomized for comorbities.

But back to your post.  Perhaps if you had restricted these at risk NY based Florida home owners to stay in NY in the cold, moist, densely populated,  polluted confines of NY more may have died? Yes If people who fled NY to die of covid in FL, had instead stayed in NY, there may have been more deaths in NY.

There is no correlation yet observed between pollution and covid. Maybe? but you are speculating.  Im not sure that the people who have second homes in FL live in cold moist polluted confines in NY.  They are called "snowbirds" and are generally affluent.

Just fyi, NY has very dry weather in the winter, and FL is very humid.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Do you have the slightest clue how "vaccines" work?

- DSK

KFSB is both clueless and a troll, a perfect combination. Slug is trying to compete with him.

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24 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

KFSB is both clueless and a troll, a perfect combination. Slug is trying to compete with him.

It's definitely a race to the bottom, but Slug was late to the starting line.

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