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We are and will continue to remain horrified at Rachel Holick's gut-wrenching story of sexual abuse at the hands of male collegiate sailors.

We have contacted the International Collegiate Sailing Association, US Sailing, the head sailing coach at Roger Williams University where she attends and sails, the head sailing coach at Navy, where this incident allegedly took place, and sponsors and supporters of the ICSA. Granted, some of these contacts are as recent as this morning, but as of yet, we have heard nothing from any of these authorities. There can be no doubt that all of them are fully aware of this unspeakable tragedy. And there can be no doubt that immediate action is required.

We will not sit idly by should these people and institutions fail to respond and act as they should. No, as they must. This isn't anything to be taken lightly, and yet we already smell the whiff of what is it - indifference, lack of empathy, hoping it will just go away?  We don't know and hope that our gut reaction is wrong.

In the meantime, if any anarchists have any information on this, please do not hesitate to send us an email. All sources will remain confidential.

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We are and will continue to remain horrified at Rachel Holick's gut-wrenching story of sexual abuse at the hands of male collegiate sailors. We have contacted the International Collegiate Sailing

random? sailing anarchy is random? that's funny. if these people think they can just say and do nothing, then they are wrong. if they choose to ignore this, it will be at their own peril. we're going

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude wome

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6 minutes ago, guerdon said:

Ed, if you can get the particulars, we[anarchists] can contact the players and take care of it.

Yeah... and this is exactly why her coach, US sailing, etc... isn't going to give details to random sailing website owner. 

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We are all horrified by this.  Given that this particular thread is titled, "where we're at", I wonder if the time has come to remove the more misogynistic threads on SA?  It's 2021; are threads like National Cleavage Week still appropriate when we see gang rapes occurring in our sport?

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3 minutes ago, Reference said:

Yeah... and this is exactly why her coach, US sailing, etc... isn't going to give details to random sailing website owner. 

random? sailing anarchy is random? that's funny. if these people think they can just say and do nothing, then they are wrong. if they choose to ignore this, it will be at their own peril. we're going to pound this story until truths are revealed. 

oh and fuck you.

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Just now, Foolish said:

We are all horrified by this.  Given that this particular thread is titled, "where we're at", I wonder if the time has come to remove the more misogynistic threads on SA?  It's 2021; are threads like National Cleavage Week still appropriate when we see gang rapes occurring in our sport?

nope. free speech (for the most part) still reigns here, no matter how offensive (for the most part). you are allowed to speak your mind.

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18 minutes ago, Editor said:

nope. free speech (for the most part) still reigns here

So I guess we can't be surprised when something like this happens.

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7 minutes ago, Foolish said:

So I guess we can't be surprised when something like this happens.

by that line of thinking, i'm to blame? holy christ, are you kidding?

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15 minutes ago, JoeO said:

Can you pin the article to the top of the front page, so it deesn't slip down as newer articles get added?

can do!

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12 minutes ago, Editor said:

i'm to blame? holy christ, are you kidding?

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

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25 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

Life is complicated. I always listened to what my girlfriends on when to make a move. I fail to see how appreciating beauty equals rape. But my own kids are turned off by that thread. Just to be clear. Whether that thread means one thing or another isvalso open to vigorous debate.

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30 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

Come on, conflating these behaviours is giving an excuse to blindingly bad activities by those who know better. If nudity or appreciation of the nude human form doesn't rock your boat, I support you completely in not looking at it and/or criticizing the practice. Suggesting that a bunch of old farts looking at women who willingly bare themselves is in any way complicit in the act of rape is just wrong. 

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This is the fault of the criminals that thought their desires are paramount.

Banning the forum equivalent of shop calendars will not change this behaviour. Listen to Rachel, speaking out and telling both boys and girls that this is criminal and dealing with it through a fair criminal process is critical. That is what will change this, not banning threads.

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6 minutes ago, Gong Show said:

Banning the forum equivalent of shop calendars will not change this behaviour.

And the KKK marching down the street in white robes did not lead to lynchings.  And Hitler blaming Jews for losing WWI did not lead to the holocaust.   And objectifying women as sex objects does not lead to rape.   All perfectly logical.

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2 minutes ago, Foolish said:

And the KKK marching down the street in white robes did not lead to lynchings.  And Hitler blaming Jews for losing WWI did not lead to the holocaust.   And objectifying women as sex objects does not lead to rape.   All perfectly logical.

So where do you draw the line?

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9 minutes ago, Foolish said:
14 minutes ago, Gong Show said:

Banning the forum equivalent of shop calendars will not change this behaviour.

And the KKK marching down the street in white robes did not lead to lynchings.  And Hitler blaming Jews for losing WWI did not lead to the holocaust.   

So enjoying looking at pretty/sexy women equates to or turns you into a brutal rapist?

What utter PC bullshit.

Similar attitude to blaming the victims because they dressed sexily.

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55 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

how fucking dare you. i wouldn't insult her with this utter bullshit of trying to blame anarchists for this horrific event. your agenda is obvious, but how about you dig a little deeper  - oh i don't know - say 200 years ago to find the roots for this behavior. then please build a case study and post it in the forum, so that we may all share in your enlightenment.

 

55 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

 

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Yeah, censorship will solve the problem. Because it's the fault of women for being so damn attractive that, when they're exposed to pictures of semi-clad women, those poor boys can't help themselves (sounds like what's taking place in Afghanistan right now--I know, take it to PA).

Methinks the perps, not Scot, are to blame and should pay the price.

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Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand, this alleged awful crime.  On that subject, while I applaud SA for calling our attention, this is absolutely NOT the place for the investigation or judgment.  I absolutely have to believe the proper authorities (not any athletic organization) are on this and it won't be "swept under the rug".  If it can be proved to be as described, the perps will be away from our community for a long, long time.

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2 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand, this alleged awful crime.  On that subject, while I applaud SA for calling our attention, this is absolutely NOT the place for the investigation or judgment.  I absolutely have to believe the proper authorities (not any athletic organization) are on this and it won't be "swept under the rug".  If it can be proved to be as described, the perps will be away from our community for a long, long time.

all i can tell you is that exactly nobody, other than a bullshit response from her sailing coach, has responded. we are attempting to obtain the police report, but that too has run into a brick wall. 

shame on every one of these institutions should they continue their silence. each and every one of them will be held up to the light by us should they not step up and do the right thing.

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5 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand, this alleged awful crime.  On that subject, while I applaud SA for calling our attention, this is absolutely NOT the place for the investigation or judgment.  I absolutely have to believe the proper authorities (not any athletic organization) are on this and it won't be "swept under the rug".  If it can be proved to be as described, the perps will be away from our community for a long, long time.

Clear Lake ring a bell? SA actually made a difference in a case that WAS almost entirely under the rug.

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Fair enough! 

Again, the impact on the Clear Lake case it was the initial reporting and followup, not the forum comments.  As said, I applaud your involvement!  The best that happens is that it somehow forces authorities to do their job.

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Re women and their breasts: If looking at a photo of a woman and discovering they have breasts sends you out to violently assault them, then you really had issues anyway. There is no way titty photos on this website are responsible for violent rape.

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13 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand, this alleged awful crime.  On that subject, while I applaud SA for calling our attention, this is absolutely NOT the place for the investigation or judgment.  I absolutely have to believe the proper authorities (not any athletic organization) are on this and it won't be "swept under the rug".  If it can be proved to be as described, the perps will be away from our community for a long, long time.

The coach of each of the teams at the event should have held a meeting by now with the team members at the event, and asked if anyone has any information.

All the teams present should be barred from attending any more events until the perps have been identified.  That kind of pressure will out the guilty quickly.

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20 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

So where do you draw the line?

Pretty simple, don't post thousands of nude or nearly nude photos on your website.  It won't solve all the problems in the world, but at least it shows that we actually do care about this situation.  

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1 minute ago, Foolish said:

Pretty simple, don't post thousands of nude or nearly nude photos on your website.  It won't solve all the problems in the world, but at least it shows that we actually do care about this situation.  

 

You truly are foolish

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17 minutes ago, Editor said:

all i can tell you is that exactly nobody, other than a bullshit response from her sailing coach, has responded. we are attempting to obtain the police report, but that too has run into a brick wall. 

shame on every one of these institutions should they continue their silence. each and every one of them will be held up to the light by us should they not step up and do the right thing.

Except that none of these entities have any sort of obligation to provide you with anything. Their obligation -- and the right thing - is to investigate, determine if there is probable cause, and bring an airtight case to prosecutors & courts. And that lawful objective is only hindered by the wanna-be vigilantes here.  

 

7 minutes ago, Expat Canuck said:

All the teams present should be barred from attending any more events until the perps have been identified. 

Case in point. The mob is very very stupid.  "If one person reports a crime, punish ALL of collegiate sailing." That will encourage reporting.  /s

 

 

 

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Scot, SA is doing exactly the right thing in letting authorities know that this won't be going away quietly.  However, real time updates are unrealistic.

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2 minutes ago, Expat Canuck said:

The coach of each of the teams at the event should have held a meeting by now with the team members at the event, and asked if anyone has any information.

All the teams present should be barred from attending any more events until the perps have been identified.  That kind of pressure will out the guilty quickly.

I disagree because most of the teams did nothing wrong and have no information to help. Or at least they didn’t know they had information. It wouldn’t be hard for many of the teams, coaches, host families, etc. to provide solid alibis for each other. For obvious reasons, you’d have to exclude alibis provided only by male teammates. It could greatly reduce the size of the search. 

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Just now, Gong Show said:

The status quo blows. I think that is what @Reference is advocating for.

Bring an airtight case! Such a thing does not exist. Get real.

So you advocate instead, banning EVERY participant of that regatta from collegiate sailing? Because that feels emotionally satisfying to you right now? 

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25 minutes ago, dave-j said:

Perhaps we should get back to the subject at hand, this alleged awful crime.  On that subject, while I applaud SA for calling our attention, this is absolutely NOT the place for the investigation or judgment.  I absolutely have to believe the proper authorities (not any athletic organization) are on this and it won't be "swept under the rug".  If it can be proved to be as described, the perps will be away from our community for a long, long time.

The police and other “proper authorities “ have been mishandling and ignoring sexual assault cases for as long as became a crime to perpetrate this acts.  Never assume that the police will demonstrate competence.  

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22 minutes ago, Editor said:

all i can tell you is that exactly nobody, other than a bullshit response from her sailing coach, has responded. we are attempting to obtain the police report, but that too has run into a brick wall. 

shame on every one of these institutions should they continue their silence. each and every one of them will be held up to the light by us should they not step up and do the right thing.

Seeing as you have an excellent soapbox to reach out to the sailing world, how about setting up a Gofundme to offer a reward for information that leads to the arrest of these shitbags?  If it accidentally raises too much money, the excess could go to one of the many programs set up to assist rape victims. 

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17 minutes ago, Expat Canuck said:

The coach of each of the teams at the event should have held a meeting by now with the team members at the event, and asked if anyone has any information.

All the teams present should be barred from attending any more events until the perps have been identified.  That kind of pressure will out the guilty quickly.

agreed

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10 minutes ago, Reference said:

So you advocate instead, banning EVERY participant of that regatta from collegiate sailing? Because that feels emotionally satisfying to you right now? 

^^ 

Hot-headed mob justice is just about always as bad as the worst policing. It's fine to shine a public light on wrongdoing.  It's quite another thing to make the statement "we'll take care of this ourselves."  That's a damned loaded statement, and a short walk to some serious wrongdoing by an amped-up herd who might otherwise be sane people.

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1 minute ago, Monkey said:

Seeing as you have an excellent soapbox to reach out to the sailing world, how about setting up a Gofundme to offer a reward for information that leads to the arrest of these shitbags?  If it accidentally raises too much money, the excess could go to one of the many programs set up to assist rape victims. 

i've got a couple of attys trying to obtain the police report. we'll go this route first.

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1 hour ago, Foolish said:

So I guess we can't be surprised when something like this happens.

Don’t ever let a young, attractive female pose for photographs in revealing clothing to eliminate the potential for rape by some drunken sailor reprobates?

How about we get rid of alcohol, which may have helped fuel this tragedy? I don’t think a misogynistic thread on the general anarchy forum is the root cause of devious behavior.

 

18 minutes ago, Foolish said:

Pretty simple, don't post thousands of nude or nearly nude photos on your website.  It won't solve all the problems in the world, but at least it shows that we actually do care about this situation.  

You need to attend more intolerance meetings. The Editor is letting people express freedom of speech and art. The women posed for Sal’s pics. It’s a camera aimed at them, not a gun.

P.S. I don’t look at that thread. I have 2 young daughters, but if they chose to pose for photos and they are adults, I would have to accept their decision. 

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16 minutes ago, Monkey said:

I disagree because most of the teams did nothing wrong and have no information to help. Or at least they didn’t know they had information. It wouldn’t be hard for many of the teams, coaches, host families, etc. to provide solid alibis for each other. For obvious reasons, you’d have to exclude alibis provided only by male teammates. It could greatly reduce the size of the search. 

Back when I was in collegiate sailing, everyone pretty much knew everyone else at the events, and it was a close knit group.  In that scenario, there would be lots of opportunity for those not involved or with no direct knowledge of the event, to find someone who knows something from their group of acquaintances, and get them to talk.

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11 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Don’t ever let a young, attractive female pose for photographs in revealing clothing to eliminate the potential for rape by some drunken sailor reprobates?

How about we get rid of alcohol, which may have helped fuel this tragedy? I don’t think a misogynistic thread on the general anarchy forum is the root cause of devious behavior.

I don't always agree with @Sail4beer but I do on this one.  In today's news, the Taliban shot a folk singer in the head. Because they believe that any music other than religious music is wrong.  They are making women cover from head to toe, so that men don't lose control of themselves.  Our western society is founded on the belief that we are smarter than that and can treat each other with basic respect and dignity. And when our rules are broken, we seek fair and legal resolution.

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Is Foolish next going to ask for pictures of Rachel to see if her clothing choice that day was "asking for it"? 

The women on the cleavage thread are almost all professional models and are well of aware the decision they made to monetize they way that they look.  Shockingly, they are not asking to be raped.

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1 hour ago, Editor said:

i've got a couple of attys trying to obtain the police report. we'll go this route first.

Yeahe, putte Cleane on it..... hese a realle houndogge........                   :)

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The fact that this thread about how to address a particular, staggeringly horrendous, incident was co-opted by a bunch of people who care more about their squabble of the day is incredibly disappointing. I have to assume that the person who first brought up misogynistic threads, in an attempt to paint them as like-for-like with something this unthinkable and heinous, either was looking to troll the OP, is a self-important sociopath who wants to dominate all conversations or is a complete moron. 

A new collegiate sailing season is about to get underway -- are the assailants who committed this atrocity still suiting up for regattas? Are the coaches who managed the initial response (one of whom apparently dissuaded Rachel from seeking medical attention) still in place?

My sister is a freshman; is she going to have to interact with one of these sadists?

Some of these teams are varsity teams, and all of them have an academic institution affiliation. They fall under the burden of the Cleary Act and Title IX. The Department of Education would be the hammer to wield. 

Outside of that official route, I would think that Yacht Clubs, racing organizations and classes, etc. might be able to apply some leverage to US Sailing and / or ICSA. 

 

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1 hour ago, Expat Canuck said:

The coach of each of the teams at the event should have held a meeting by now with the team members at the event, and asked if anyone has any information

That feels to me like a job for the cops, not coaches or sailing authorities.

One would hope that law enforcement is on it, even if they're choosing not to publicly share details at this stage.

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Wondering if his real objective here is to throw shade at US sailing, which Scott has a longstanding grudge match against.  

Except that as far as anyone can tell, the first time anyone heard of this was yesterday on IG. 

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14 minutes ago, Reference said:

Wondering if his real objective here is to throw shade at US sailing, which Scott has a longstanding grudge match against.  

Except that as far as anyone can tell, the first time anyone heard of this was yesterday on IG. 

Or maybe he’s genuinely angry that a fellow sailor was raped, you know, like the rest of us humans. 

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14 minutes ago, Monkey said:

Or maybe he’s genuinely angry that a fellow sailor was raped, you know, like the rest of us humans. 

I’d hope so. But then why attack US Sailing’s “silence” on the front page?  Trying to imply a coverup, when they and everyone else likely only learned of this yesterday or this morning morning.  
 

There’s really plenty of villains here in the story without inventing new ones.

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There is no indication the crime took place on USNA property. No indication its a Navy problem.

The Sailing event was over.  "the night...after the Nationals".

Appears to  begin with, 21+ adults, drinking in a public bar.

Loose lips , inaccurate details, sink ships.

Yes this is a serious issue & case for RWU, US Sailing,  ICSA, and USNA.  They should be interested and then involved if their member/student are indicted in a crime.

Paramount, it appears to be a crime outside/after of the sailing event, not on a campus or academy . 

Primarily, most likely, falls under the jurisdiction, of Annapolis law enforcement.

A  SICK &  SAD CRIME 

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48 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

That feels to me like a job for the cops, not coaches or sailing authorities.

One would hope that law enforcement is on it, even if they're choosing not to publicly share details at this stage.

I would agree with that, however, I feel the sailing authorities have a responsibility to inform their members and the sailing public in general about something as heinous as this. Silence is unacceptable in my view.

However, based on my 5 minute phone call with Mitch Brindley from ICSA in which he giggled, was dismissive and largely combative when asked a question, and then hung up on me, perhaps getting anyone from any of the ruling bodies is a fool's errand. So disappointing that much of this sport seems more concerned with covering this up as opposed to honesty and truth.

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4 minutes ago, Reference said:

I’d hope so. But then why attack US Sailing’s “silence” on the front page?  Trying to imply a coverup, when they and everyone else likely only learned of this yesterday or this morning morning.  
 

There’s really plenty of villains here in the story without inventing new ones.

That's not true at all. This incident happened on June 8 of this year. They all fully well know probably as much as anyone does, yet their silence is both suspicious and incredibly unimpressive.

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36 minutes ago, Reference said:

Wondering if his real objective here is to throw shade at US sailing, which Scott has a longstanding grudge match against.  

Except that as far as anyone can tell, the first time anyone heard of this was yesterday on IG. 

Grudge against the governing body of our sport that has ignored us for years, despite efforts by us to work together on some issues, while at the same time paying bootlickers to carry their water? yes, I think they blow, but not just for that. 

As for your comment that the first time anyone heard of this, that too is incorrect. I would venture to say many have known about it, perhaps since June 8 when it happened. No, saying nothing is what they've all chosen.

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24 minutes ago, Editor said:

That's not true at all. This incident happened on June 8 of this year

Was it reported to anyone until last week though?
 

And if it was — is it possible they were respecting the victim’s wishes and letting her decide whether or not to go public?

I have no idea, but it’s a bit early to start screaming coverup.

 

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All WE have now is one social media post, from one person, 6 days ago.  "today i tell my story"

There is NO indication,  RWU, US Sailing, ICSA, USNA and Annapolis Police any more than, one social media post, from one person, from 6 days ago.

No indication, that this case, (if it is a case) is more more than 6 days old. 

I recommend, give it some time.

The place to check is the D.A. and or Annapolis police dept. You have the right to public information, even if names are not disclosed for privacy. In basic principle, the police do a investigation, the DA and or grand jury decides to continue/prosecute.

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54 minutes ago, Reference said:

Was it reported to anyone until last week though?
 

And if it was — is it possible they were respecting the victim’s wishes and letting her decide whether or not to go public?

I have no idea, but it’s a bit early to start screaming coverup.

 

Despite your accusations, i didn't scream anything. i said i was sniffing something that didn't seem right. In fact I know almost nothing, but am trying to share what i do have, while being suspect at governing bodies. Blind allegiance to the status quo can be found over at Scuttlebutthole. Here, we're a bit more cynical.

As for the victim's decision on any of this, all I know is she went very public with it. Our only hopes remain that she gets the help that is absolutely required, and that whoever did this be exposed and brought to justice.

Imma leave in right there for now until I learn more. 

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Sailing is too small of a community and college sailing even smaller. I am betting she knows who the assailants are and college nationals are not the first time they have met. Too often the assailants are known by their victims. I feel for her.

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3 hours ago, Editor said:

your agenda is obvious

I certainly hope it's obvious.  In 2021 it is hypocritical for SA to be profiting from these photos (through the Google sponsorship) while at the same time fighting against the sexual exploitation of women.  So dump the Larry Flynt attitude Mr. Editor.  The 1970's are long gone and the claim of free speech, while legal, doesn't fit with the world today.  

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You are free to vote with your eyes.  You can certainly go to other sailing web sites that don’t offend your estrogen influenced sensibilities 

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38 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I certainly hope it's obvious.  In 2021 it is hypocritical for SA to be profiting from these photos (through the Google sponsorship) while at the same time fighting against the sexual exploitation of women.  So dump the Larry Flynt attitude Mr. Editor.  The 1970's are long gone and the claim of free speech, while legal, doesn't fit with the world today.  

I don’t know what fucked up world you live in, but pictures of attractive women have never driven me or anyone I know to rape anyone. That isn’t how it works. 

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11 minutes ago, Monkey said:
51 minutes ago, Foolish said:

I certainly hope it's obvious.  In 2021 it is hypocritical for SA to be profiting from these photos (through the Google sponsorship) while at the same time fighting against the sexual exploitation of women.  So dump the Larry Flynt attitude Mr. Editor.  The 1970's are long gone and the claim of free speech, while legal, doesn't fit with the world today.  

I don’t know what fucked up world you live in, but pictures of attractive women have never driven me or anyone I know to rape anyone. That isn’t how it works.

f.u.w. ist ritte

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10 minutes ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

Sounds to me like victim blaming in the guise of virtue signaling.

I actually agree. As an example, I had to PRO a regatta last weekend. A bunch of boats were lent out to basically turn a whole college team loose. Lots of cute girls. When we all got properly drunk at the party, guess what we talked about?  Sailing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding another person attractive. That doesn’t mean you can’t treat them as an equal and with respect. 

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5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

 

How about we get rid of alcohol, which may have helped fuel this tragedy? I don’t think a misogynistic thread on the general anarchy forum is the root cause of devious behavior.

 

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You guys are a pretty 

8 hours ago, Editor said:

random? sailing anarchy is random? that's funny. if these people think they can just say and do nothing, then they are wrong. if they choose to ignore this, it will be at their own peril. we're going to pound this story until truths are revealed. 

oh and fuck you.

You guys are full of shit. So many macho BS posts on this site and you allow way worse on the forum. You have boat review videos on here that are produced by your editorial team that almost always call the master Cabin the 'stabbin cabin'.

Maybe you guys should do an article on how you plan on stamping out the blatant 1950's era sexism that is one of the prominent characteristics of your publication. 

In no way do I condone the actions referenced in this article and I see that you are doing good work to try and hold those responsible accountable. But you guys need to be honest here.   

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1 minute ago, Editor said:

well looky here, another first timer snowflake. awww, so cute.

Ha ha, good on ya mate. Is that what you do this for? 100 time the man you are clearly. I think you are enjoying replying to the people who disagree with you more than actually giving a shit here.

Keep up the good work.

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In my 30's now. I was too big to compete in college at 6ft5 and 210lb but I spent my younger summers coaching pretty competitively and then another 5 years after college working in the industry. Met and worked with, around, and for many MANY young collegiate sailors both guys and gals. Got to hear all sorts of war stories about crazy parties and things that happened at regattas. All a great part of the sport. I remember hearing stories though that even then, just out of college, made me cringe, about girls getting man handled, having sex in public and generally being put in very exposed or compromised situations and usually heavily hindered by alcohol. I hate to say it but i'd be pretty unsurprised if this is the very tip of the iceberg in collegiate sailing. You've got hundreds of college age athletes often travelling on their own, frequently staying with other teams or friends, lacking the coaching and mentoring supervision that is more typical in other sports. They're meeting at all different locations to race and then partying like crazy in all kinds of fun venues all over the country. It's a recipe for alcohol fueled madness and that's just a fact. On the one hand, it'd be easy to say this is just reflective of the situation on college campuses in general but this is supposed to be a gentlemen's game and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was a GROUP of sailors and not just one "bad actor" speaks to the toxicity of the whole scene. Would be curious to hear some college coach input on how the situation could be improved at these events.

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2 hours ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

victim blaming in the guise of virtue signaling

The jargon of Cancel Culture.:rolleyes: Can you express yourself without using vacuous terms like that? 

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37 minutes ago, Tronix said:

In my 30's now. I was too big to compete in college at 6ft5 and 210lb but I spent my younger summers coaching pretty competitively and then another 5 years after college working in the industry. Met and worked with, around, and for many MANY young collegiate sailors both guys and gals. Got to hear all sorts of war stories about crazy parties and things that happened at regattas. All a great part of the sport. I remember hearing stories though that even then, just out of college, made me cringe, about girls getting man handled, having sex in public and generally being put in very exposed or compromised situations and usually heavily hindered by alcohol. I hate to say it but i'd be pretty unsurprised if this is the very tip of the iceberg in collegiate sailing. You've got hundreds of college age athletes often travelling on their own, frequently staying with other teams or friends, lacking the coaching and mentoring supervision that is more typical in other sports. They're meeting at all different locations to race and then partying like crazy in all kinds of fun venues all over the country. It's a recipe for alcohol fueled madness and that's just a fact. On the one hand, it'd be easy to say this is just reflective of the situation on college campuses in general but this is supposed to be a gentlemen's game and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was a GROUP of sailors and not just one "bad actor" speaks to the toxicity of the whole scene. Would be curious to hear some college coach input on how the situation could be improved at these events.

The LAST people who will commenting on anything about college sailing are the coaches. In their world, the only thing that matters is their paycheck, and building a resume to get a better higher paying gig. Period. 
 

 

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All our government's and sporting bodies are harping on about increasing female inclusion and participation in our sport. Which is good.

Thanks Ed for bringing this issue to light. 

It will be a real test to see just how serious the relevant colleges and sailing bodies are in this endeavour. I would be somewhat nervous if I was a sponsor, college board, regatta organiser etc. 

It doesn't matter where or when, fact is, it was only a day after the nationals and the perpetrators are identified as a sailing team. So yes the sport of sailing is, without question, being brought into disrepute.

Let the Law do what it needs to do. Unfortunately in most cases not much and if, only  with the  direct perpetrator(s), not those around who have the responsibility to protect athletes.

The Sailing bodies have their own policies and procedures in place to deal with this situation. Let them run their own investigations.

Then there are the Rules of Sailing and Section 69 Misconduct, which is initiated by the organising authority, reported or escalated to the National Authority and reported or escalated to World Sailing.

I would expect that this will end up with World Sailing if the National Authority is joking around, and life bans being imposed for the whole team who were present. And any coaches, administrators, colleges, organising authorities etc who treat this lightly. Nothing less would be acceptable to the majority of decent people. We don't need them in Sailing ever. Oh and if sexual assault isn't bad enough, attempting to drown someone is attempted murder.

And yes I have a teenage daughter and 2 adult sons. 

Edited by soliverg
missed the attempted murder
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Guys, put down the tiki torches and pitchforks for a minute - we aren't off for a gay afternoon of lynching like your good ole days.

Rachel has not (that I've seen) mentioned vengeance, or even justice.  If she is pursuing these through other means, that's fine by me (personally, I think the perps should be hung by their balls, but that's not likely to happen).  She has called for CHANGE!  A change in attitudes, a change in the way college guys see women as prey, a change to the group rape mentality that apparently pervades college sport in USA. 

Can we, as a sport, but particularly in the USA, work on this aspect and leave the rest to LE?  What can you guys contribute to changing the culture?  We have been through some awful stuff in AUS about toxic male culture in Australian schools over the past couple of years - I'm no expert, but there would be people who you can contact who could provide some sort of guidance.

Rather than (ridiculously) blaming threads on SA or the Ed's laissez faire approach, try changing the way your young males think about women (hint:  banning pictures of naked women isn't just impossible, but wouldn't achieve the end goal anyway), and help Rachel to recover from her awful experience through seeing that change. 

And good on you Rachel for having the strength and courage to bring this into the open.  I hope you achieve peace.

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10 hours ago, Tronix said:

In my 30's now. I was too big to compete in college at 6ft5 and 210lb but I spent my younger summers coaching pretty competitively and then another 5 years after college working in the industry. Met and worked with, around, and for many MANY young collegiate sailors both guys and gals. Got to hear all sorts of war stories about crazy parties and things that happened at regattas. All a great part of the sport. I remember hearing stories though that even then, just out of college, made me cringe, about girls getting man handled, having sex in public and generally being put in very exposed or compromised situations and usually heavily hindered by alcohol. I hate to say it but i'd be pretty unsurprised if this is the very tip of the iceberg in collegiate sailing. You've got hundreds of college age athletes often travelling on their own, frequently staying with other teams or friends, lacking the coaching and mentoring supervision that is more typical in other sports. They're meeting at all different locations to race and then partying like crazy in all kinds of fun venues all over the country. It's a recipe for alcohol fueled madness and that's just a fact. On the one hand, it'd be easy to say this is just reflective of the situation on college campuses in general but this is supposed to be a gentlemen's game and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was a GROUP of sailors and not just one "bad actor" speaks to the toxicity of the whole scene. Would be curious to hear some college coach input on how the situation could be improved at these events.

I'm a college coach in NEISA (New England) and feel compelled to address this. College regatta parties were already a thing of the past when I competed over a decade ago and most teams in our conference have 24 hour no alcohol policies before competition. This may be an issue in developing conferences with more club teams, but teams in the larger conferences certainly have the coaching and mentoring supervision you mentioned. In our district, the sport has become professionalized and a sailor showing up to compete hungover is grounds for suspension or dismissal from the team at most schools. The night after nationals would be the rare exception, as competition has ended and the sailors technically are no longer in school, at competition, or on campus. I don't think it's fair to categorize all of college sailing as some "alcohol fueled madness". A couple years back, one team was caught consuming alcohol at a regatta and were subsequently suspended from competition for an entire year. Perhaps it's an issue in other conferences, but certainly not here in New England.

This is an appalling incident and I hope ICSA and/or the perpetrators' team take strong actions against these individuals and likely the team as a whole. I can think of at least three schools that have lost entire seasons due to hazing. I would hope a violent group sex crime is punished appropriately. 

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10 hours ago, Tronix said:

In my 30's now. I was too big to compete in college at 6ft5 and 210lb but I spent my younger summers coaching pretty competitively and then another 5 years after college working in the industry. Met and worked with, around, and for many MANY young collegiate sailors both guys and gals. Got to hear all sorts of war stories about crazy parties and things that happened at regattas. All a great part of the sport. I remember hearing stories though that even then, just out of college, made me cringe, about girls getting man handled, having sex in public and generally being put in very exposed or compromised situations and usually heavily hindered by alcohol. I hate to say it but i'd be pretty unsurprised if this is the very tip of the iceberg in collegiate sailing. You've got hundreds of college age athletes often travelling on their own, frequently staying with other teams or friends, lacking the coaching and mentoring supervision that is more typical in other sports. They're meeting at all different locations to race and then partying like crazy in all kinds of fun venues all over the country. It's a recipe for alcohol fueled madness and that's just a fact. On the one hand, it'd be easy to say this is just reflective of the situation on college campuses in general but this is supposed to be a gentlemen's game and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was a GROUP of sailors and not just one "bad actor" speaks to the toxicity of the whole scene. Would be curious to hear some college coach input on how the situation could be improved at these events.

I'm a college coach in NEISA (New England) and feel compelled to address this. College regatta parties were already a thing of the past when I competed over a decade ago and most teams in our conference have 24 hour no alcohol policies before competition. This may be an issue in developing conferences with more club teams, but teams in the larger conferences certainly have the coaching and mentoring supervision you mentioned. In our district, the sport has become professionalized and a sailor showing up to compete hungover is grounds for suspension or dismissal from the team at most schools. The night after nationals would be the rare exception, as competition has ended and the sailors technically are no longer in school, at competition, or on campus. I don't think it's fair to categorize all of college sailing as some "alcohol fueled madness". A couple years back, one team was caught consuming alcohol at a regatta and were subsequently suspended from competition for an entire year. Perhaps it's an issue in other conferences, but certainly not here in New England.

This is an appalling incident and I hope ICSA and/or the perpetrators' team take strong actions against these individuals and likely the team as a whole. I can think of at least three schools that have lost entire seasons due to hazing. I would hope a violent group sex crime is punished appropriately. 

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10 hours ago, Tronix said:

In my 30's now. I was too big to compete in college at 6ft5 and 210lb but I spent my younger summers coaching pretty competitively and then another 5 years after college working in the industry. Met and worked with, around, and for many MANY young collegiate sailors both guys and gals. Got to hear all sorts of war stories about crazy parties and things that happened at regattas. All a great part of the sport. I remember hearing stories though that even then, just out of college, made me cringe, about girls getting man handled, having sex in public and generally being put in very exposed or compromised situations and usually heavily hindered by alcohol. I hate to say it but i'd be pretty unsurprised if this is the very tip of the iceberg in collegiate sailing. You've got hundreds of college age athletes often travelling on their own, frequently staying with other teams or friends, lacking the coaching and mentoring supervision that is more typical in other sports. They're meeting at all different locations to race and then partying like crazy in all kinds of fun venues all over the country. It's a recipe for alcohol fueled madness and that's just a fact. On the one hand, it'd be easy to say this is just reflective of the situation on college campuses in general but this is supposed to be a gentlemen's game and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The fact that it was a GROUP of sailors and not just one "bad actor" speaks to the toxicity of the whole scene. Would be curious to hear some college coach input on how the situation could be improved at these events.

I'm a college coach in NEISA (New England) and feel compelled to address this. College regatta parties were already a thing of the past when I competed over a decade ago and most teams in our conference have 24 hour no alcohol policies before competition. This may be an issue in developing conferences with more club teams, but teams in the larger conferences certainly have the coaching and mentoring supervision you mentioned. In our district, the sport has become professionalized and a sailor showing up to compete hungover is grounds for suspension or dismissal from the team at most schools. The night after nationals would be the rare exception, as competition has ended and the sailors technically are no longer in school, at competition, or on campus. I don't think it's fair to categorize all of college sailing as some "alcohol fueled madness". A couple years back, one team was caught consuming alcohol at a regatta and were subsequently suspended from competition for an entire year. Perhaps it's an issue in other conferences, but certainly not here in New England.

This is an appalling incident and I hope ICSA and/or the perpetrators' team take strong actions against these individuals and likely the team as a whole. I can think of at least three schools that have lost entire seasons due to hazing. I would hope a violent group sex crime is punished appropriately. 

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Interesting to see so much backlash on here about someone presenting the thought that perhaps SA is a PART of this toxic culture. I mean it definitely seems clear that there has been ample evidence of Ed and SA presenting material that views women as objects of pleasure. I have a few thoughts

1) Either you are a big fish or you aren't. You can't constantly be complaining that the sailing world doesn't take you seriously enough and yet simultaneously argue that your site doesn't post material that is important to changing or establishing the culture of the sport. IF SA is as important as Ed claims it to be (certainly the traffic data suggests he is right) then SA does maintain a special and important place in establishing what the culture of the sport is going to be. 

2) If the above statement is true then SA DOES have the ability to adjust over time the way that people view women in the sport. I think Ed and co have clearly done some great things in this space often highlighting some of the best female athletes in the sport and lauding them for their sailing accomplishments. These efforts are certainly undermined to some degree by posts the display scantily clad women as objects "bow candy" and not as dynamic members of the sailing community. These posts are not some major part of the site so why is there so much anger and animosity over the idea of purging that type of display here?

Final thought. Just about everyone's argument here involves some statement to effect of "that's a stupid idea, clearly the bikini pics on SA didn't make me rape somene". First you're right. Neither SA, nor anyone else is somehow directly responsible for behavior like this. BUT this type of logic is also bullshit. It's a logical fallacy called the slippery slope. You argue that if one thing is true then the other must also be true. IS SA responsible or does it advocate for young men to rape people? obviously not. But it can certainly be said that SA helps to contribute to a toxic sailing culture that views women as sexual objects. Ed and SA have a choice, they could very easily scrub that shit from this site and be 100% in the "advocate" category on these issues. In short SA could CHOOSE not to be a part of that toxic culture. IMO it wouldn't hurt their business as it doesn't seem to be a major part of what goes on here anyway. That makes it that much more interesting when people are fighting so hard to keep that material here.

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6 hours ago, Recidivist said:

try changing the way your young males think about women

I observed that my son's and daughter's college experience was completely different from my generation's, in ways that I believe contribute to this problem. First of all, social culture is largely online, which didn't exist until recently. Young people are absorbed in their online social experience, and lMO tend to be less socially skilled in face-to-face connection, conflict resolution, etc.  Dating culture of old served several valuable functions including passing on basic etiquette and expectations of respect, as well as just spending one-on-one time with girls. Nowadays it seems like young people socialize in packs, date a lot less, and drink more consistently heavy. Not that this didn't take place in the past, but nowadays it is the weekly standard. Young people want to meet romantic partners - which is central to life, right? - but the current social norm has devolved into herds of males and females hanging together and occasionally hooking up when they meet and are drunk, rather than meeting and arranging future dates. They rely on dating apps to date. Therefore - IMO - part of the way we change the way young males think about women is to get them back to mingling face-to-face with girls as part of the social norm. And not just when everyone is drinking.

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