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15 hours ago, Owen AU said:

I think you are enjoying replying to the people who disagree with you more than actually giving a shit here.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA

 

You aint from around here are you partner??  

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We are and will continue to remain horrified at Rachel Holick's gut-wrenching story of sexual abuse at the hands of male collegiate sailors. We have contacted the International Collegiate Sailing

random? sailing anarchy is random? that's funny. if these people think they can just say and do nothing, then they are wrong. if they choose to ignore this, it will be at their own peril. we're going

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude wome

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22 hours ago, Foolish said:

Pretty simple, don't post thousands of nude or nearly nude photos on your website.  It won't solve all the problems in the world, but at least it shows that we actually do care about this situation.  

There are countries that could accommodate your wishes and assure all women are completely covered at all times. You could move there..... 

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4 hours ago, quod umbra said:

I would submit that over time as SA has "evolved" that it has become less misogynistic. Long gone are the "Friday" threads where a dozen or more posters would scour the interweb for scantly clad pictures of women and post them. Went on for hours what with different time zones being represented. While posting pictures of women still takes place, they are in no way as risque as they once were.
I always thought SCOTW was off a bit. Sure celebrate women in sailing. All good but there was an air of objectification surrounding it all. Although I cannot for the life of me remember any young lady being held up as SCOTW complaining that she felt used or objectified. Perhaps that did happen privately.
But is it ED's fault? I think he subscribes to a P.T.Barnum sort of philosophy in that he is trying to give the people what they want. Ultimately though, this place operates on its own. ED does not and has not ever really controlled nor steered it. It is a mob mentality and always ends up where the participants drive it to.

The "Friday" threads were a big draw back in the day and I think that some of the PA dregs are holdouts from that era...  LOL..  To your point, Yes, SA has calmed down a bunch, but I don't think that Scott has anything to do with that, I think it is just the growing up of this community and natural selection.  ( And the prevalence of other much better porn sites which shal remain unnamed.).  Frankly this place is getting boring compared to the days of the wild west, but it is still better than most...  

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2 hours ago, Sisu3360 said:

You mean "extended" as in "for life," right? If the reported details are accurate I'm really struggling with envisioning any circumstance under which these individuals could possibly be rehabilitated into the sailing community. I'll set aside what rehabilitation into society at large looks like for these people, although many on this thread seem to understandably favor "Idiocracy's" version of rehabilitation.

Rule 69 concerns "conduct that may bring, or has brought, the sport into disrepute." This is a metric shit-ton of disrepute.

Sirhan Sirhan just got recommended for parole. What are you talking about, Francis.  I’ll let US Sailing and World Sailing make that determination.

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3 hours ago, Reference said:

All in all, while entertaining, there is an unavoidably toxic mean-spiritedness that permeates, and has increased in the last 10 yrs.

With the exception of Fix-it & Cruising anarchy, it's often more a collection of internet trolls than an open discourse for the sailing community.  I mean, how many boat builders, sailmakers, or anyone with a professional reputation contributes under their own name?  

Getting rid of some of the more offensive jerks would go a ways towards improving the overall discourse.  And the COVID and PA forums bring out the worst in this place, even if they drive up clicks & post numbers.

 

OK - Here goes a tangent rant. You are way off base singling out toxic conversations on SA - its global.

The increase in toxic mean-spiritedness over the last 10 years is the defining social trend of this age..   It is not an accident.  It is not the first time the western world has given in to fear & hate with help from some ambitious power-seekers.   Oldest fascist trick in the book - make people afraid and it is easy to get then to run in a herd.   However, It is the first time that the western world was 100% covered by one or 2 media outlets that would publish any content with no editorial control or values, just pure profit motive.  In the past racists - Nazi, Klan members - whoever - had to go to great expenses to to distribute the kind of propaganda that could sow the fear needed to turn people in sheep.

The italian tech entrepreneur Gianroberto Casaleggio figured out to use social media to move the heard 10x faster and cheaper than ever before.  On a whim he created the 5-star party in Italy and in a decade it became the majority party.  He also taught one Steve Bannon all his tricks and ..... here we are.   If you want to understand why we are all not panic porn and screaming at each other - read the 2019 Wired article "What Happens When Techno-Utopians Actually Run a Country"

Against this backdrop of panicked herd behavior - I think Ed's efforts to feed this thread to help to keep this tragic story front and center are admirable.

Hope it yield some facts.

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On 8/31/2021 at 1:07 PM, Foolish said:

I guess you'd have to ask Rachel that.  Send her this message: "Hi Rachel. We run North America's premier sailing web site and forum.  Our site contains thousands of photos of nude or nearly nude women.  Do you think that this might have contributed to the environment where a group of young men violently raped you?"

Are you calling me a rapist? Are you accusing me of having any responsibility for a woman being raped? 

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Geeze, I didn't realize..... oh wait, I have been here since the very early days. So I have seen SA grow, expand and morph over time.
Yes I guess Scot could spend his whole policing the forums, although it would be a monumental job. I can well remember asking that we all cool it with the content in the Friday threads. For the most part it tampered down the content from R or even X rated to more of an M rating. But you could tell it was taxing Dawg to do so, that it was consuming way too much of his time as to detract from his other responsibilities. Lot fewer posts now-a-days though. Used to be the first 4 pages of the SA section was 4+ pages deep each morning of new content. Now it is half a page, so I guess it would be easier to police.
As for effecting his business. Depends. The forms are about hits and hits spells revenue in that he can demonstrate his advertizing fees are justified. More hits, more money. Fact is while SA used to carry the water early on and for about half of this website's history, PA and GA are what pays the bills, keeps the lights on, so to speak.
As for him being the editor. One of his hats I guess. But for what purpose? He decides content of the articles on the front page. There really is no editing the forums. While they are not the wild west they once were, they are still formidable in the amount of user content generated. Not saying we all could not do a better job of policing ourselves, to be clear.

Lol. I too have been here since the "early days" reading and listening for nearly 20 years. I know thousands of people who view and read this site's main page for sailing related news and content and don't participate in these forums (myself included). What goes on the front page of the site is the face of the company and sets the tone for everything that proceeds in the forums. I'm not suggesting that the Ed be cruising around the forum policing every thread but he does have clear editorial authority over what he choses to post.

I'll provide a perfect anecdote. Check out the recent "Retro boat reviews" that were listed on the main page and on youtube. I thought they were awesome and I watched almost every one. Then out comes this little nugget (See Link Below from Mar 1, 2021). This was super cringeworthy and exactly what people are complaining about. I thought the videos were awesome without this BS. Ed has a clear choice and he appears to be, at best, on the fence on this issue. As the Ed. HE sets the tone for what the site is going to be and the site is clearly, and by his own estimation, very well viewed and followed in the community which means that his position as the editor clearly does have some influence overall. He may not want that on his back but it's the nature of the beast!

 

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IMHO, I don't really see the connection between a sexual assault/Rape which is an act of violence vs. a rated R picture of a woman. The woman who posed for a picture was presumably doing it by consent and may have profited from it as well. Is that degrading to all women? Some think so, but society says not. Guess what, sex sells. Liberty allows people to make certain choices of how they want to use their body. But to claim this leads to someone raping a woman is just daft and without any real proof of some connection. This sad incident needs to be thoroughly investigated and justice allowed to prevail. I think the Editor is just fine here.

 

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On 8/31/2021 at 11:27 AM, Editor said:

We are and will continue to remain horrified at Rachel Holick's gut-wrenching story of sexual abuse at the hands of male collegiate sailors.

We have contacted the International Collegiate Sailing Association, US Sailing, the head sailing coach at Roger Williams University where she attends and sails, the head sailing coach at Navy, where this incident allegedly took place, and sponsors and supporters of the ICSA. Granted, some of these contacts are as recent as this morning, but as of yet, we have heard nothing from any of these authorities. There can be no doubt that all of them are fully aware of this unspeakable tragedy. And there can be no doubt that immediate action is required.

We will not sit idly by should these people and institutions fail to respond and act as they should. No, as they must. This isn't anything to be taken lightly, and yet we already smell the whiff of what is it - indifference, lack of empathy, hoping it will just go away?  We don't know and hope that our gut reaction is wrong.

In the meantime, if any anarchists have any information on this, please do not hesitate to send us an email. All sources will remain confidential.

Truly horrifying accusations. Is there a police investigation in progress? Was a report filed that day?  Has this been verified in any way? Neither the Sailing Anarchy post nor the original Instagram post mention what should be an ongoing police investigation or give clear details of the timeline of events.  Horrible if this is true and hopefully all involved are brought to justice. Not sure what the connection to ICSA is since it did not take place at their official event and from the information given was not during a sanctioned team activity, obviously all individuals involved in the attacked need to be arrested immediately. 

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If the editor is being objectively accurate, the "Annapolis PD..... has a report", which could and or be a case/ investigation.

So their unwillingness to talk about is a maybe a good sign.

This is a not simply rape allegations.  We're talking MUCH MORE  that:

Aggravated Rape

Aggravated Assault

Kidnapping

Sloppy allegation and  loose journalism, can become slanderous. 

Allegations and indications are,  it was after the sailing event, adults,  in public Annapolis. 

Up till now we have nothing to tie the USNA to this. USNA is not part of the City of Annapolis. Its basically a federal mil. base.  No one has more lawyers, guns and money than the federal govt., literally. So the editor better be careful, the issue he had with the fat guy a few years back was minor league compared to what could happen pissing the Navy off. Don't tie the USNA to this until, the facts do.

 

 

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4 hours ago, gn4478 said:

IMHO, I don't really see the connection between a sexual assault/Rape which is an act of violence vs. a rated R picture of a woman. The woman who posed for a picture was presumably doing it by consent and may have profited from it as well. Is that degrading to all women? Some think so, but society says not. Guess what, sex sells. Liberty allows people to make certain choices of how they want to use their body. But to claim this leads to someone raping a woman is just daft and without any real proof of some connection. This sad incident needs to be thoroughly investigated and justice allowed to prevail. I think the Editor is just fine here.

 

I bet there were way more rapes before Playboy. They just weren't reported. Exhibit #1: Taliban

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11 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

I observed that my son's and daughter's college experience was completely different from my generation's, in ways that I believe contribute to this problem. First of all, social culture is largely online, which didn't exist until recently. Young people are absorbed in their online social experience, and lMO tend to be less socially skilled in face-to-face connection, conflict resolution, etc.  Dating culture of old served several valuable functions including passing on basic etiquette and expectations of respect, as well as just spending one-on-one time with girls. Nowadays it seems like young people socialize in packs, date a lot less, and drink more consistently heavy. Not that this didn't take place in the past, but nowadays it is the weekly standard. Young people want to meet romantic partners - which is central to life, right? - but the current social norm has devolved into herds of males and females hanging together and occasionally hooking up when they meet and are drunk, rather than meeting and arranging future dates. They rely on dating apps to date. Therefore - IMO - part of the way we change the way young males think about women is to get them back to mingling face-to-face with girls as part of the social norm. And not just when everyone is drinking.

Interestingly, and paradoxically, sailing is one of the best sports for integrating boys and girls as part of a team, and fostering mutual respect.  I was (and remain) very impressed by the excellent rapport my son has with many excellent sailing girls - he has sailed with them, coached them and hung out with them.  The relationships are very healthy, fun and mutually respectful.  They will be firm friends for life.

It couldn't be more different from the misogynistic view of women that is held by the pack of brutes who raped Rachel.  

As I mentioned, we had some appalling examples of toxic male culture in Australian schools recently - it shocked most of the nation.  I know much has been done to address this - how much improvement has been achieved, I don't know.  I hope US college sailing coaches are researching the methods used and what worked, and implement those systems post haste.

Interestingly, one of the indicators of toxic male culture was misogynistic drinking songs.  In my youth, we used to sing many of the same songs, but it wasn't based on some evil plan to gang rape women, it was funny, mindless group amusement.  We would NEVER have indulged in disrespectful conduct toward the girls we wanted to date.  Somewhere along the line things changed, and the harmless amusement became symbolic of something much darker.  

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14 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Notte siurre howe to caulle you to a backe channelle, dointe wantte discusse withalle heare............             :)

Hi Snags, feel free to PM me.  I don't know how much I can contribute, but happy to exchange ideas in a good cause.  

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On 8/31/2021 at 1:24 PM, Reference said:

Wondering if his real objective here is to throw shade at US sailing, which Scott has a longstanding grudge match against.  

Except that as far as anyone can tell, the first time anyone heard of this was yesterday on IG. 

On 8/31/2021 at 2:05 PM, Editor said:

Grudge against the governing body of our sport that has ignored us for years, despite efforts by us to work together on some issues, while at the same time paying bootlickers to carry their water? yes, I think they blow, but not just for that. 

As for your comment that the first time anyone heard of this, that too is incorrect. I would venture to say many have known about it, perhaps since June 8 when it happened. No, saying nothing is what they've all chosen.

On 8/31/2021 at 2:52 PM, Cristoforo said:

What exactly does Sailing  Anarchy bring to the table of USS and these other orgs?

im surprised that guy even took your call.  

Pretty much nothing at the National Level. Scot sails exclusively in SD even when he had a bitchin tailorable boat. I wish Scot spent some money in traveling to the Major regattas and participating, even if you get your ass kicked you spread good will......................maybe.

If this happened on June 8th in Annapolis, no doubt there is some pleb involved.  I would think some rich kids are in real trouble, given that the investigation is taking so long.........................God Damn Covid fucks everything up. It's all Fauci's fault .

 

 

On 8/31/2021 at 6:01 PM, Editor said:

well looky here, another first timer snowflake. awww, so cute.

On 8/31/2021 at 6:05 PM, Owen AU said:

Ha ha, good on ya mate. Is that what you do this for? 100 time the man you are clearly. I think you are enjoying replying to the people who disagree with you more than actually giving a shit here.

Keep up the good work.

Careful Scot, Au is your friend, though I know a few that would like to use you as a rugby ball.

 

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Huge thanks to all the men who posted in this thread to mansplain how the SA practices of

  1. treating women as sex objects rather than people
  2. demanding that newbies betray the trust of their female partners by posting intimate pictures of their breasts

... have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the decision of some sailing men to treat a sailing colleague as a sex object rather than as a person, and to betray her trust in them as fellow sailors by gang-raping and torturing her.

It's so good to have that cleared up, so that we can all disregard decades of scholarly research showing a strong correlation between sexual violence and consumption of pornography.

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36 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Huge thanks to all the men who posted in this thread to mansplain how the SA practices of

  1. treating women as sex objects rather than people
  2. demanding that newbies betray the trust of their female partners by posting intimate pictures of their breasts

... have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the decision of some sailing men to treat a sailing colleague as a sex object rather than as a person, and to betray her trust in them as fellow sailors by gang-raping and torturing her.

It's so good to have that cleared up, so that we can all disregard decades of scholarly research showing a strong correlation between sexual violence and consumption of pornography.

Dana Carvey Church Lady - YouTube

 

You know about 80-90% of the ads for  charter boats wouldn't get past you, right?

I met the lady who was the famous "bare back" model for charters in the ad that ran for years in sailing magazines. She is sitting on a beach topless looking out at the boat and you can only see her back. She said she was amazed how many people recognized her when her face wasn't visible and how nice it was to talk to sailors. Apparently this ad did not spawn  a rape epidemic in the Caribbean :rolleyes:

Pro Tip - the people that are willing to violently rape a girl and nearly kill her didn't get that way from a boobie picture on SA ;)

God knows what monstrous crimes the french toast video has spawned.........................

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20 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

As for me, I’m no longer going to be asking for the traditional greeting from noobs, Rachael might approve of that small gesture as a start.

meanwhile MSG will be rolling in her grave .

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13 hours ago, Recidivist said:

We would NEVER have indulged in disrespectful conduct toward the girls we wanted to date.

For those who want to ruminate about the REAL issues that have led to this kind of behavior, I believe that the disappearance of any sort of time-honored formality of dating or courtship has played a role. We grew up asking girls on dates as soon as we received drivers licenses. That mean that at 16, we had to muster up the courage to call a girl on the family phone line and ask her out, and we had to meet her parents. The weight of both our parents' expectations factored into our behavior. By the time we arrived at college, we had clearly formed ideas on how to treat each other. Today, kids communicate mostly online and arrive at college often having never spent one-on-one social time with someone of the opposite sex. So many feel the need to get shit-faced in order to feel socially comfortable. Nearly everyone at that age is horny, and with more alcohol, less social experience, and less weight of cultural norms, these situations are happening more often. 

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58 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

For those who want to ruminate about the REAL issues that have led to this kind of behavior, I believe that the disappearance of any sort of time-honored formality of dating or courtship has played a role. We grew up asking girls on dates as soon as we received drivers licenses. That mean that at 16, we had to muster up the courage to call a girl on the family phone line and ask her out, and we had to meet her parents. The weight of both our parents' expectations factored into our behavior. By the time we arrived at college, we had clearly formed ideas on how to treat each other. Today, kids communicate mostly online and arrive at college often having never spent one-on-one social time with someone of the opposite sex. So many feel the need to get shit-faced in order to feel socially comfortable. Nearly everyone at that age is horny, and with more alcohol, less social experience, and less weight of cultural norms, these situations are happening more often. 

I am going to somewhat disagree about the "good old days". I remember that there were certain types of parties at college one would want to avoid if you weren't a raging asshole (male) or definitely if you were a female, we just didn't have social media back then.

This is why this situation hurts so bad, we aren't supposed to be those people :angry:

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1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

For those who want to ruminate about the REAL issues that have led to this kind of behavior, I believe that the disappearance of any sort of time-honored formality of dating or courtship has played a role. We grew up asking girls on dates as soon as we received drivers licenses. That mean that at 16, we had to muster up the courage to call a girl on the family phone line and ask her out, and we had to meet her parents. The weight of both our parents' expectations factored into our behavior. By the time we arrived at college, we had clearly formed ideas on how to treat each other. Today, kids communicate mostly online and arrive at college often having never spent one-on-one social time with someone of the opposite sex. So many feel the need to get shit-faced in order to feel socially comfortable. Nearly everyone at that age is horny, and with more alcohol, less social experience, and less weight of cultural norms, these situations are happening more often. 

There is probably something in this, and I’ll add that mothers used to tell daughters that ‘men will do anything, anything, to get in your pants, so do not get yourself in a compromising position to give them a chance to do that.’ That poor girl was not raised with any cynicism and had no defense and those abject cocksuckers took full advantage.

Teach your daughters not to trust strangers.

—and, @Editor, be very careful about doing anything that will fuck up her case. Which will include any sort of disclosure. Absolutely make sure they pursue, hound the authorities, but that does not include disclosure until and unless resolution.

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19 hours ago, gn4478 said:

IMHO, I don't really see the connection between a sexual assault/Rape which is an act of violence vs. a rated R picture of a woman. The woman who posed for a picture was presumably doing it by consent and may have profited from it as well. Is that degrading to all women? Some think so, but society says not. Guess what, sex sells. Liberty allows people to make certain choices of how they want to use their body. But to claim this leads to someone raping a woman is just daft and without any real proof of some connection. This sad incident needs to be thoroughly investigated and justice allowed to prevail. I think the Editor is just fine here.

 

This is a response to all the guys on here (I notice no women) arguing that there is no clear relationship between the sexual content posted at at place like SA (or any media for that matter) and sexual violence. I am posting here a great literature review conducted by Silvia Galdi and Francesca Guizzo, both professors in developmental psychology.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11199-020-01196-0

The review links out to a variety of other scientific literature and tangible studies and does a great job of "connecting the dots" for people who do not understand how sexually objectifying media follows several clear psychological pathways to harrassing and eventually violent behaviors. We all respond to media and we all consume media differently and so it stands to reason that not all people are going to behave the same in relation to the media in front of us. Just because YOU do not personally see these connections in your own life and behaviors does not mean they do not exist.

 

I also found myself thinking about a great book i recently read called "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell (a fantastic read). The book discussed how we become successful at something and what Gladwell calls his 10,000 hour rule (basically that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become an expert at something). Gladwell discussed the biological process through which we train our brains an bodies over time. Your neural pathways are constructed of nerve cells which send their signals down long branches called axons. These axons are coated in a material called myelin which acts as a conductor/insulator. The more myelin on the axon, the faster and more easily the signal will travel. When we use a certain neural pathway repeatedly, the body learns that this is a preferred process and gradually begins to increase the myelin insulation around that cell. As time goes on, these increasingly myelinated pathways wire our brain to think or work a certain way as we repeatedly fall back on using the same neural pathways. This, to me is a great explanation as it relates to HOW sexual objectification in media effects people's thinking processes in the long run. By consuming that material consistently over time, people are wiring their brains to view women as objects or sub-human. When this takes place the brain no longer views women the same way. They become more expendable, and are viewed as objects or assets to be bought or sold or used with no intrinsic value outside of their objective good looks. This is not a black and white process but one that happens gradually over time and over a spectrum. It may not be how all men, or even most men think but we all too often excuse the men who DO think this way by constantly putting off the idea that these connections exist. Just because YOUR brain isn't wired this way doesn't mean that others is and we shield ourselves in a kind of bro-code solidarity that blows off inappropriate discussion as "locker room" talk meaning that very few people stand up to someone with these thoughts until they are already displaying a genuinely harassing or violent behavior. 

 

You may not like it but there is a clear, scientific, observable, and statistically quantifiable connection between media content that sexually trivializes and objectifies women and sexually harassing, and even sexually violent behavior. Now SA and other communities have the choice to decide what limits to place on this content KNOWING that these connections DO exist. Sexually explicit and objectifying media exists everywhere and people seeking it will nearly always be able to get access to it. Does that mean we shouldn't try? Should we maybe just hold ourselves to a higher standard because it's the right thing to do? 

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two can play that game ..

Results indicated that although viewing sexually objectified women in advertising did not increase any of the dependent variables for individuals in the experimental conditions compared to the control condition, there was a main effect of sex for several dependent measures, as well as a full mediation of moral disengagement and rape likelihood by rape myth acceptance in male participants. These findings suggest that education aimed at correcting men’s endorsement of rape myths might be a key pathway to decreasing rape likelihood.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10926771.2015.1029179

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23 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am going to somewhat disagree about the "good old days". I remember that there were certain types of parties at college one would want to avoid if you weren't a raging asshole (male) or definitely if you were a fermale, we just didn't have social media back then.

This is why this situation hurts so bad, we aren't supposed to be those people :angry:

Agreed in that I remember walking out of a couple of parties that had that feel to them in college. But I think more of us back then had lines already drawn in our minds about what was over the line.

Someone recommended Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers.  I think maybe a more-apt book about human behavior and what influences it is Robert Chaldini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion. While it focuses much time on how advertisers use human herd traits to influence behavior, it is a solid treatise on human social behavior in general. At times startling and dismaying, but I place it in the top 10 books I've read in the past couple of years. People trying to tie sexual imagery to behavior are confusing symptoms with root causes. Sexual imagery has been around since the dawn of time, since, er, sex and reproduction are fairly fundamental to our existence. It's the social norms of the times that drive or limit behavior.

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1 minute ago, Max Rockatansky said:

This is way, way the fuck beyond ‘out of line full of piss bad manners.’ You sound like ‘boys will be boys’ with that statement. G.zeus, man

well you've read it wrong .

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15 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Interestingly, and paradoxically, sailing is one of the best sports for integrating boys and girls as part of a team, and fostering mutual respect.  I was (and remain) very impressed by the excellent rapport my son has with many excellent sailing girls - he has sailed with them, coached them and hung out with them.  The relationships are very healthy, fun and mutually respectful.  They will be firm friends for life.

It couldn't be more different from the misogynistic view of women that is held by the pack of brutes who raped Rachel.  

As I mentioned, we had some appalling examples of toxic male culture in Australian schools recently - it shocked most of the nation.  I know much has been done to address this - how much improvement has been achieved, I don't know.  I hope US college sailing coaches are researching the methods used and what worked, and implement those systems post haste.

Interestingly, one of the indicators of toxic male culture was misogynistic drinking songs.  In my youth, we used to sing many of the same songs, but it wasn't based on some evil plan to gang rape women, it was funny, mindless group amusement.  We would NEVER have indulged in disrespectful conduct toward the girls we wanted to date.  Somewhere along the line things changed, and the harmless amusement became symbolic of something much darker.  

Rugby Queen comes to mind...  All in good fun mind you, but a rando woman would be put on the props shoulders and we would serenade her with wonderful lyrics, then the "show us your tits" shouts came out from 60 something drunk rugby players..  All in good fun, but well, it might be considered something else nowdays...  

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27 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Agreed in that I remember walking out of a couple of parties that had that feel to them in college. But I think more of us back then had lines already drawn in our minds about what was over the line.

Someone recommended Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers.  I think maybe a more-apt book about human behavior and what influences it is Robert Chaldini's Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion. While it focuses much time on how advertisers use human herd traits to influence behavior, it is a solid treatise on human social behavior in general. At times startling and dismaying, but I place it in the top 10 books I've read in the past couple of years. People trying to tie sexual imagery to behavior are confusing symptoms with root causes. Sexual imagery has been around since the dawn of time, since, er, sex and reproduction are fairly fundamental to our existence. It's the social norms of the times that drive or limit behavior.

The root cause is humans are the descendants of a violent branch of the great apes and sex is inextricably linked with violence and domination in the human male animal. Obviously this is highly variable, but in a sick kind of self-sorting, if you are prone to that and get in a bunch of guys that also think that way, your worst instincts become celebrated instead of eliminated. See 1001 football player or frat party rapes at 1001 colleges over the years :(  I also noticed the reverse effect, people NOT like that also sort themselves out.  Our college parties were wild, but no girl was ever in danger and the few guys that tried to mess with a girl too drunk to say no got a boot in the ass right out the door. It wasn't even a question, even back way before all the current stuff that was just wrong.

 

 

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As for "the good old days", I've been out of college about forty years, but while there was called on once to interrupt an ongoing gang bang happening to my then girlfriend's classmate.  I yanked the guy off her by his hair so hard I was pretty sure his scalp was going to part from his head!  The girl was out of her mind drunk and couldn't have consented to getting a sandwich, much less anything sexual.  We took her to the hospital where she had her stomach pumped and checked over.  She declined to press charges when she sobered up.  Just wanted the whole thing to disappear.

Point is, this ain't anything new.  What IS new is DNA matching that can put these fuckers away, IF they captured it in time. 

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On 8/31/2021 at 11:02 AM, Editor said:

but how about you dig a little deeper  - oh i don't know - say 200 years ago to find the roots for this behavior. then please build a case study and post it in the forum, so that we may all share in your enlightenment.

The evidence reviewed on the basis of the Media-Induced Sexual Harassment framework shows that sexually objectifying media converge in normalizing harassing behaviors and can be a causal risk factor for increasing engagement in sexual harassment, heightening victims’ acceptance of sexual harassment and discouraging bystander intervention. 

From: Media-Induced Sexual Harassment: The Routes from Sexually Objectifying Media to Sexual Harassment | SpringerLink as pointed to by Tronix above.  

There you go Mr. Editor.  A full study on this subject that clearly points to all of the media that sexually objectifies women.  I guess that would include the SA Forum, especially since it is targeted specifically at sailors - and the perpetrators of this crime were sailors.   No excuses now, are there?  

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29 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I also noticed the reverse effect, people NOT like that also sort themselves out.  Our college parties were wild, but no girl was ever in danger and the few guys that tried to mess with a girl too drunk to say no got a boot in the ass right out the door. It wasn't even a question, even back way before all the current stuff that was just wrong.

This...  In all the ski and rugby parties I attended, I don't recall anything that escalated past the rugby queen song...  Generally the drunks were just that, drunks.   Now I never joined a frat, and tended to stay away from those types.  I lived in the rugby house tho, and they were animals, but the good kind...  LOL

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31 minutes ago, Foolish said:

The evidence reviewed on the basis of the Media-Induced Sexual Harassment framework shows that sexually objectifying media converge in normalizing harassing behaviors and can be a causal risk factor for increasing engagement in sexual harassment, heightening victims’ acceptance of sexual harassment and discouraging bystander intervention. 

From: Media-Induced Sexual Harassment: The Routes from Sexually Objectifying Media to Sexual Harassment | SpringerLink as pointed to by Tronix above.  

There you go Mr. Editor.  A full study on this subject that clearly points to all of the media that sexually objectifies women.  I guess that would include the SA Forum, especially since it is targeted specifically at sailors - and the perpetrators of this crime were sailors.   No excuses now, are there?  

Have you ever had a look at a typical romance novel cover? Women like this stuff too ;)

30 Outrageous Romance Novel Covers

Does the Moorings ad I posted promote sexual harassment? 

I really think what you ask for is entirely beyond the power of anyone to bring about. I think boobie pictures probably date back a LONG time.File:Tiziano Vecellio,called Titian - Girl in a Fur ...

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Anyone re

24 minutes ago, shaggy said:

This...  In all the ski and rugby parties I attended, I don't recall anything that escalated past the rugby queen song...  Generally the drunks were just that, drunks.   Now I never joined a frat, and tended to stay away from those types.  I lived in the rugby house tho, and they were animals, but the good kind...  LOL

The problem is keeping some limits in place. Tailhook probably wasn't ALWAYS a boob-grabbing fest, but eventually it was assumed any female that showed up was there because they knew what went on and wanted in on it :rolleyes:

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20 hours ago, shrimp said:

Don't tie the USNA to this until, the facts do.

Perhaps don't tie anyone or anything to this, until the facts do.

Regarding the non-release of the police report, seems to me that the fact that it's an ongoing investigation and that the privacy rights of the person who made the report should be respected, I'm not that surprised that it's not available for public release.

Does anyone find it fishy that SA is the only outlet discussing this? It seems tailor-made for a viral blowup but doesn't seem to have any traction.

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College and sexual assaults have been synonymous for as long as I can remember. These incidents happen every weekend on college campuses and in the Greek system. The universities cover them up to keep the donations coming in. 

When the highest paid state employee is usually a college football coach, something is inherently wrong. As in everything else, follow the money. It's all about money all of the time, Kevin O'Leary. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/09/23/these-are-the-highest-paid-public-employees-in-every-state/114091534/

I'm sending prayers and positive thoughts to this young lady and hope that justice is served. 

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5 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

For those who want to ruminate about the REAL issues that have led to this kind of behavior, I believe that the disappearance of any sort of time-honored formality of dating or courtship has played a role. We grew up asking girls on dates as soon as we received drivers licenses. That mean that at 16, we had to muster up the courage to call a girl on the family phone line and ask her out, and we had to meet her parents. The weight of both our parents' expectations factored into our behavior. By the time we arrived at college, we had clearly formed ideas on how to treat each other. Today, kids communicate mostly online and arrive at college often having never spent one-on-one social time with someone of the opposite sex. So many feel the need to get shit-faced in order to feel socially comfortable. Nearly everyone at that age is horny, and with more alcohol, less social experience, and less weight of cultural norms, these situations are happening more often. 

I think that might be PART of the issue. Younger people seem to have difficulty with IRL interactions. 

But this happened all the time when I was in HS and college. But people didn't feel safe reporting it and it was always the females fault especially if there was a jock involved. Coaches parents boosters all got involved and the issue just disappeared. No soclal media, local media blocked out so no way to know. 

Some friends and I went to our dean about a prof who was too friendly with the female students. We were ignored. He continued to ask them out. Three of us told her to agree and we went in here place. Did that more than once with different women. He finally got the message. 

 

That was 30 years ago. Sailing was pretty similar, very agressive towards females who happened to wander by alchol or not. 

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And the KKK marching down the street in white robes did not lead to lynchings.  And Hitler blaming Jews for losing WWI did not lead to the holocaust.   And objectifying women as sex objects does not lead to rape.   All perfectly logical.

So if I was born to like sex and like looking at sexy woman so I guess I'm as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon.   That is simply beyond a stretch of logical thinking.   These days it seems many woman have taken the reign from men and objectify themselves with a constant barrage of come hither sexy images posted for all to see.   A rapist is in my opinion is a version of a psychopath with no compassion or empathy for other humans.  

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4 minutes ago, solosailor said:

So if I was born to like sex and like looking at sexy woman so I guess I'm as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon.   That is simply beyond a stretch of logical thinking.   These days it seems many woman have taken the reign from men and objectify themselves with a constant barrage of come hither sexy images posted for all to see.   A rapist is in my opinion is a version of a psychopath with no compassion or empathy for other humans.  

Like I said - Moorings charter boat ads must be wreaking havoc.

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3 minutes ago, solosailor said:

So if I was born to like sex and like looking at sexy woman so I guess I'm as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon.   That is simply beyond a stretch of logical thinking.   These days it seems many woman have taken the reign from men and objectify themselves with a constant barrage of come hither sexy images posted for all to see.   A rapist is in my opinion is a version of a psychopath with no compassion or empathy for other humans.  

I have really struggled with this clash of values myself. The last thing I want to do is tell a woman she should avoid looking as sexy as she wishes but it seems incongruous with the prevailing thinking which rails against objectification of the female form. Some women I know ride both sides of this particular fence accentuating their assets while concurrently being upset that men even talk about those same assets in other women. 

Hopefully this does not come across as legitimizing unwanted advances or rape but rather opens the door for a fuller discussion, particularly with women in the discussion. 

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50 minutes ago, danstanford said:

I have really struggled with this clash of values myself. The last thing I want to do is tell a woman she should avoid looking as sexy as she wishes but it seems incongruous with the prevailing thinking which rails against objectification of the female form. Some women I know ride both sides of this particular fence accentuating their assets while concurrently being upset that men even talk about those same assets in other women. 

Hopefully this does not come across as legitimizing unwanted advances or rape but rather opens the door for a fuller discussion, particularly with women in the discussion. 

I think the idea is that a woman looking attractive is no excuse for crime. This is not actually a really hard concept in the end. It is absolutely impossible to rewire your brain to not like tits, but you can refrain from being an ass when appreciating them. :rolleyes:

 

 

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6 hours ago, solosailor said:

So if I was born to like sex and like looking at sexy woman so I guess I'm as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon.   That is simply beyond a stretch of logical thinking.

Solosailor, the only thing beyond a stretch of logical thinking is your comment.  It's a classic straw man: a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

Nobody else said, suggested, or implied that you are "as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon".  You invented that piece of hyperbole so that you could dismiss it, and pretend that you had addressed someone else's argument.

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On 8/31/2021 at 12:58 PM, Editor said:

by that line of thinking, i'm to blame? holy christ, are you kidding?

Do you permit misogynistic language on SA ? 

Then, hell yes, you are partly to blame. 

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Oh my God!
 

The editor allows free speech in an anonymous website forum called anarchy?

That’s what must have attracted you so you can patrol the threads and tell people what to think and say.

You’d make a great moderator!

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Do you permit misogynistic language on SA ? 

Then, hell yes, you are partly to blame. 

As are you, every click from you pays the bills and here is a pro tip, The Ed couldn't care less if you like him as long as you are here. Feel free to strike a blow for the proletariat and go away.

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7 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Feel free to strike a blow for the proletariat and go away.

"Pro tip" indeed . .  

Human dignity and women's rights much be sacrificed on the alter of money, is that it ?  

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16 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Solosailor, the only thing beyond a stretch of logical thinking is your comment.  It's a classic straw man: a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

Nobody else said, suggested, or implied that you are "as bad as Hitler or the KKK's Grand Dragon".  You invented that piece of hyperbole so that you could dismiss it, and pretend that you had addressed someone else's argument.

Ah, a straw man...like presenting a study on sexual harassment as support for an argument about sexual assault? Yeah, straw man arguments are bad...

sometimes.  

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26 minutes ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Ah, a straw man...like presenting a study on sexual harassment as support for an argument about sexual assault? Yeah, straw man arguments are bad...

sometimes.  

And of course sexual harassment and sexual assault are completely unrelated  :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I'm quite grown up, I assure you.  I take it very seriously when it is insinuated that posting pictures contributes to rape. Let's see the study that demonstrates the link. 

I think you have made it very clear that you aren't actually interested in evidence, just in defending objectification of women.  Bye!

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24 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I think you have made it very clear that you aren't actually interested in evidence, just in defending objectification of women.  Bye!

I'm not sure why you quoted me in that, right after I asked for a report that says what you assert. Perhaps you were responding to someone else.  A straw man perhaps. 

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To answer the original question, where we're at seems to be:

Locked in a pointless shouting match on the internet, which will contribute neither to justice for the present victim of sexual assault, nor to mitigating the risk to potential future victims.

Where we're at is a pretty sad state indeed.

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45 minutes ago, Corryvreckan said:

To answer the original question, where we're at seems to be:

Locked in a pointless shouting match on the internet, which will contribute neither to justice for the present victim of sexual assault, nor to mitigating the risk to potential future victims.

Where we're at is a pretty sad state indeed.

Nobody is shouting. To the best of our knowledge, the present victim's case is where it should be, under investigation. We should not know anything about it other than the victim's claim.

You presume that there is a risk to future victims. Several others have taken a crack at proving that point up.  Wanna have a try at it?  While you do, please let us know if the women's thread where they posted tawdry pictures of men was also sexual harassment or assault. 

 

edit: to be clear here.  I am not trying to be nasty, I am not yelling, nor am I in any way angry about anything other than what happened to this woman. I just draw the line at suggesting that people on an internet forum, or anyone other than the criminals who did this act, are responsible for it. That said, I am rational, and have a great belief in the power of reason, so I can be convinced, but it takes more than just "because". 

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On 8/31/2021 at 2:14 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

Re women and their breasts: If looking at a photo of a woman and discovering they have breasts sends you out to violently assault them, then you really had issues anyway. There is no way titty photos on this website are responsible for violent rape.

Of course it's not a direct cause/effect relationship, however it does add to the culture of objectifying women. Personally, I was off SA for years because I was sick of seeing "titty photos" and only came back here to read about Rachel's experience. I also won't sail with crews who make lewd jokes anymore, because after decades of trying to be the "cool chick" who could deal with all that with a fake smile on my face, I found a great group to sail with where that isn't part of the culture of the boat. So yeah, there's a larger issue of women not being respected and once the alcohol starts flowing it can lead to bad behavior. Clearly this is the extreme, but I really don't get what the connection is between "titty photos" and sailing, other than a bunch of drunken old men and frat boy types. It's time to move beyond this attitude and treat women in sailing with respect. Ironically, I found college sailing to be one of the better atmospheres for women sailors.

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11 minutes ago, RI_sailr said:

Of course it's not a direct cause/effect relationship, however it does add to the culture of objectifying women. Personally, I was off SA for years because I was sick of seeing "titty photos" and only came back here to read about Rachel's experience. I also won't sail with crews who make lewd jokes anymore, because after decades of trying to be the "cool chick" who could deal with all that with a fake smile on my face, I found a great group to sail with where that isn't part of the culture of the boat. So yeah, there's a larger issue of women not being respected and once the alcohol starts flowing it can lead to bad behavior. Clearly this is the extreme, but I really don't get what the connection is between "titty photos" and sailing, other than a bunch of drunken old men and frat boy types. It's time to move beyond this attitude and treat women in sailing with respect. Ironically, I found college sailing to be one of the better atmospheres for women sailors.

Antony, is dat you?  

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We had young girls race with us on my Dad’s boat. They were equal and they worked hard for the team. There was no room for girl harassment or guy talk. We were out to win with the best crew period. 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

We had young girls race with us on my Dad’s boat. They were equal and they worked hard for the team. There was no room for girl harassment or guy talk. We were out to win with the best crew period. 

 

Reminds me of the movie "Wind"

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