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At least many of these oldies were built to standards of Lloyd´s and actually inspected to be such. But yeah, boat or long canoe?

 

LOA: 37.17′ / 11.33m
Beam: 6.00′ / 1.83m

SILVER-BLADE.1.png

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46 minutes ago, LI_sailor said:

I am BLOWN away with how narrow that boat is. 

Maybe Roger MacGregor was blown away with how wide other boats are.

48 minutes ago, LI_sailor said:

EVEN if it was built well and didnt flex

What is your basis for declaring that it wasn't built well? Data? Personal experience?

What is your basis for commenting on flex (implication apparently that it flexed unacceptably)? I had a pristine 1987 Cal 33-2 and I can tell you that that boat flexed as evidenced by interior doors and so forth not closing properly when placed in it's cradle on the hard. Was that a concern? No.

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2 hours ago, LI_sailor said:

I am BLOWN away with how narrow that boat is. 

EVEN if it was built well and didnt flex, it effectively has the same beam as a J105 .....

Beam is 12’.  Not the 8’ posted above. Narrow, but not extraordinary. Many classics had comparable narrowness. 

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13 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Because sane people are afraid to push them... thus they have been babied / not used much.

There's a few that have done quite a bit of offshore miles. That's not being babied. What they did to them to do those miles IDK.  

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1 hour ago, Squalamax said:

There's a few that have done quite a bit of offshore miles. That's not being babied. What they did to them to do those miles IDK.  

I get the feeling they don't actually fall apart. A very narrow and flexible boat has some advantages. As the Dashews promoted with their long narrow boats, when hit by waves beam on they tend to roll and slide, giving way instead of acting like a breakwater and getting a pounding. Also that flex probably absorbs a lot of energy all over the hull instead of a stiff boat concentrating it at certain points. Also a narrow boat heels in a gust easily, rigging loads are probably way lower than a wide racer like an IMOCA type boat.

As mentioned earlier, at this point probably all the stupid builder tricks I have heard of on these boats have already let loose and been fixed.

 

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I have two MacGregor stories:

1. (second hand) A local, well respected and successful racer here for whom I crewed regularly before the pandemic, has a brother that came into a money windfall.  Bro wants to buy a sailboat and cruise, despite limited experience.  My friend advised him against it. Bro finds a MacGregor 65 and wants to buy it.  My friend advised him against it.  He advised to go smaller, say 40' - 50'.  Bro buys the Mac 65 and dumps a bunch more money into prepping for cruising. My friend advised him against it. Finally, bro and wife are ready to set sail from Texas, heading to W/L islands.  Being a good brother, my friend relents and goes to help crew on first leg. He asked me to come along, too, but being a mere fair weather friend, I declined (thank god).  They set out, upwind of course,  and have a miserable couple of days until the forestay breaks.  Rig does not come down, being held up by halyards.  They pull into Mississippi, wife jumps off vowing never to go sailing again.  Boat stays put in Mississippi while bro tries to sort it out, eventually giving up and putting it up for sale again.  My friend, who is my age and size (6'3", 195 lbs)  reports back that the boat is small, cramped and uncomfortable for a 65 footer.  That he had a hard time down below going forward of the saloon due to lack of head room.

2.  circa 1985 I helped the legendary D. Randy West (RIP) deliver from St Maarten to Martinique a MacGregor 36 catamaran, which we then raced in the first annual Martinique Grand Prix.  We pushed that boat very hard in the tradewinds necessitating that often one of us had to go down below in the starboard hull to bail the water out of the bilge and into the sink from a leaky daggerboard trunk.  During the delivery the starboard shroud broke, noodling the mast.  We pulled into St. Bart and temporarily fixed it with about 4' of anchor chain.  When we pulled into Martinique, very generous and hospitable locals took us to their home for a shower and bed, took us to a chandlery so we could properly repair the rig, and helped us make it to the start line.  As we pushed the boat, it flexed, the winches were compressing into the deck while the cleats were pulling up on the deck.  The mast had an S shape above the spreaders and eventually folded over during the last race.  My point of this story is:  While that boat was fast and fun to sail, it was also scary due to its fragility.

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1 hour ago, unShirley said:

I have two MacGregor stories:

You have one Macgregor 65 story and that one sounds like urban legend. The forestay breaks yet the mast stays up. I would be kissing that boat. Give me a break, replacing a forestay is not uncommon or rocket science. Wife jumps off and leaves him over a forestay????  Cute story.  I could make up a better one but I need to go rearrange my sock drawer.

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The masts on the Big Macs are probably the stoutest part of the boats. Pretty tough to put any mast bend in when you can only pump the backstay to 1800 pounds. 

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Douggie Downer, when a forestay breaks, the jib halyard and Genoa can keep the mast up pretty well on masthead rig until the spinnaker halyard can be deployed to the bow tang as a secondary forestay. All the force is downward and the pressure of the forestay is usually nowhere the tension of the uppers and the mast isn’t going anywhere unless it’s blowing 70+.

So maybe it isn’t a cute made up story for Sailing Anarchy.

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3 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Douggie Downer, when a forestay breaks, the jib halyard and Genoa can keep the mast up pretty well on masthead rig until the spinnaker halyard can be deployed to the bow tang as a secondary forestay. All the force is downward and the pressure of the forestay is usually nowhere the tension of the uppers and the mast isn’t going anywhere unless it’s blowing 70+.

I'm not doubting that. But why was the incident called out as a "bad-bad Mac 65" story. So bad the guy's wife freaks out and leaves? Makes no sense. Sounds like a typical sailboat story. Forestays do break. 

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Here's a Macgregor story that also belongs in this thread: A Mac 26 broke a rudder pintle!  OMG!! The guy's family then left him. True story, I think.

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18 minutes ago, DougH said:

Here's a Macgregor story that also belongs in this thread: A Mac 26 broke a rudder pintle!  OMG!! The guy's family then left him. True story, I think.

WTF? 

Why have you got your panties in a twist over Unshirley's post?

FFS, if that is all you have in life to get upset about you're doing it wrong. 

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13 minutes ago, DougH said:

I'm not doubting that. But why was the incident called out as a "bad-bad Mac 65" story. So bad the guy's wife freaks out and leaves? Makes no sense. Sounds like a typical sailboat story. Forestays do break. 

I've seen at 2 wives freak out in my time.  In both cases, simply heeling on flat water is enough.  Sailing is not for everybody. Plenty of stories around here where the stupid extend themselves only to find out how seaworthy their non-sailing crew/passengers are.

In my current situation, the wife really doesn't like the idea of spending her indoor-cat kids inheritance on my outdoor fun and appears to be passively sabotaging the sailing.  We've sailed through some shit together and she's tough as nails but she just doesn't share the love.  I wouldn't be surprised if she forces change at some point.

I would bet forestays are more likely to break when you can't get decent rig tension which would lead to more fatigue and shock.

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18 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

WTF? 

Why have you got your panties in a twist over Unshirley's post?

FFS, if that is all you have in life to get upset about you're doing it wrong. 

Actually, it's a better story because his friend is 6' 3", which we all know is on the short side, and he had headroom trouble in parts of the boat. Shame on Macgregor for not letting him go below deck before he bought the boat. 

Learn to tell the difference between someone who is upset and someone who simply calls out BS for what it is.

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23 minutes ago, Teener said:

I've seen at 2 wives freak out in my time.  In both cases, simply heeling on flat water is enough.  Sailing is not for everybody. Plenty of stories around here where the stupid extend themselves only to find out how seaworthy their non-sailing crew/passengers are.

In my current situation, the wife really doesn't like the idea of spending her indoor-cat kids inheritance on my outdoor fun and appears to be passively sabotaging the sailing.  We've sailed through some shit together and she's tough as nails but she just doesn't share the love.  I wouldn't be surprised if she forces change at some point.

Bummer. Good luck with that. Maybe she'll find a personal hobby and then let you downsize to a boat you can single-hand.

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3 hours ago, unShirley said:

 

2.  circa 1985 I helped the legendary D. Randy West (RIP) deliver from St Maarten to Martinique a MacGregor 36 catamaran,  As we pushed the boat, it flexed, the winches were compressing into the deck while the cleats were pulling up on the deck.  My point of this story is:  While that boat was fast and fun to sail, it was also scary due to its fragility.

Easy there fella. I might have installed those winches and cleats. 

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16 hours ago, toddster said:

BITD, when the closest I got to sailing was saving up quarters for a quart of beer and a “Cruising World” back in frigid fly-over-country, I decided that the Mac 65 was THE ticket.  Can’t quite remember exactly why.  I suppose it had to do with what I thought was the optimal living space (channeling HotRod a few decades early.). To be fair, at the time, I was living on what was supposed to be the back porch of an old house with a few sheets of plywood tacked around it at minus 20°. And inflating my bed every night by lung power.  The cost just seemed like something between a joke and a fantasy.

Four decades later, there’s one of them in my marina.  Yes, when we are out trading tacks, he goes twice as fast as me. (Except, *ahem* when he runs out of draft) but I can go out any time I like - he seems to need to find a party to sail the thing.

I may be completely wrong. They do seem to be having as good a time as I am.  It’s good to be the big dog.

  

I met an older Gentleman (late 70's) in Ensenada....  with his Mac 65... He was from Canada... Vancouver if I recall correctly...  He had bought his boat in La paz.. sailed/motored to Canada.. had a barge or something.. (don't recall exactly) take his rig down.. Insurance paid to rerig and fix.. and he sailed it back down to Ensenada....  All single handing...  well..he did have a huge french poodle..  He was able to take it round all singlehanded... (with the bitch looking on....)  No party required..

He also had a toyota land cruiser  right hand drive.. and the massive poodle (with a nice pink accented kerchief around her neck) would sit in the left passenger seat...  Freaky the first time you see a some french poodle bitch driving the car with her tongue  hanging out..

 

He liked his boat..... 

 

 

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3 hours ago, DougH said:

You have one Macgregor 65 story and that one sounds like urban legend. The forestay breaks yet the mast stays up. I would be kissing that boat. Give me a break, replacing a forestay is not uncommon or rocket science. Wife jumps off and leaves him over a forestay????  Cute story.  I could make up a better one but I need to go rearrange my sock drawer.

Doug H's Urban Legend

Not urban legend, true story as best as I can remember it.  Just because you are a doubter, doesn't mean I made it all up, it just means you are a doubter.  And as for the wife "freaking out,"  I think the 2 or 3 days of slamming upwind might have something to do with that.  You seem to read a lot into my post that isn't there.  I never called it a "bad, bad Mac 65" story.  I am sure the same thing has happened on all different kinds of boats.  The friend that told me the story is a very experienced, accomplished sailor and It was told to me as it unfolded with the final installment right after the sailing leg.  He had no reason to embellish or make it up, nor do I.

 

Maybe Urban Legend would be a good name for that boat

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I did 1 to 2 trips a year down and up the Baja peninsula from 84' to 90'. And, MacGregor yachts even had me fly out to Galveston and take a French couple on the initial leg of their delivery to the Med. They are pretty easily handled short handed. Put, a kite up and you need a few more hands. But, they aren't difficult to handle if you are smart about it.

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3 hours ago, DougH said:

Learn to tell the difference between someone who is upset and someone who simply calls out BS for what it is.

 

3 hours ago, DougH said:

 

Learn to tell the difference between someone who is upset and someone who simply calls out BS for what it is.

So whatever you believe is the truth? Good luck with your dream state, loser.

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3 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Easy there fella. I might have installed those winches and cleats. 

And you did a damn good job.  The cleats never ripped out of the decks, but the backing plates you used were definitely flexing the decks upwards.

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45 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

 

So whatever you believe is the truth? Good luck with your dream state, loser.

Loser may have been a little much…

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34 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Loser may have been a little much…

Don't sweat it S4b.  Douggie obviously decided it was time to make his mark on SA, and this thread was the one to do it in.  Maybe he owns a Mac 65.  Now that he's schooled us all with his awesome wit and wisdom, he'll hopefully leave us alone until the next M65 thread.

Hey Douggie - in a thread about Mac 65s a dozen or so year ago, they were described as looking like something out of an Italian porn movie - does yours have the chandelier in the saloon?  Or is yours the stripper pole version? 

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4 hours ago, Recidivist said:

Or is yours the stripper pole version? 

If I had one I would want the stripper pole version. With strippers included please....

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5 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Loser may have been a little much…

No problems Sail4. I dish it out, I can take it.  Though you'll notice I have not made any personal attacks, just calling out statements...

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11 hours ago, DougH said:

Learn to tell the difference between someone who is upset and someone who simply calls out BS for what it is.

?? Bit of an illogical jump there. 

I didn't see anything that strange about Unshirleys post. I could name half a dozen similar situations, we probably all could. Yet you come along and arbitrate it's all utter shite.

Weird. 

 

 

 

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Did any of these suffer some catastrophic failure ?

narrow easily driven shallow draft is a recipe for low stresses, so probably good for durability in the long run.

Though I can see why they don't like going upwind :

6_4.jpg

For a purely cruising boat, the question is can they sail (even slightly) upwind in 50 knots TWS ?

I imagine if you start pinching they go sideway! If you let her "run", may be not so bad...

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16 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

?? Bit of an illogical jump there. 

I didn't see anything that strange about Unshirleys post. I could name half a dozen similar situations, we probably all could. Yet you come along and arbitrate it's all utter shite.

Weird.

I'll spell it out for you.

The context of the thread was pros and cons of the Mac 65. 1/2 of his post was about the catamaran. The other 1/2 of his post was about a failed forestay on a 65. Now if a lot of Mac 65s suffered forestay failure then the post fit the topic, but that is not the case. He even subsequently admitted this.

He might as well have said he knew of a Mac 65 that had radio trouble. And the wife left the owner because of that. 

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2 hours ago, DougH said:

I'll spell it out for you.

The context of the thread was pros and cons of the Mac 65. 1/2 of his post was about the catamaran. The other 1/2 of his post was about a failed forestay on a 65. Now if a lot of Mac 65s suffered forestay failure then the post fit the topic, but that is not the case. He even subsequently admitted this.

He might as well have said he knew of a Mac 65 that had radio trouble. And the wife left the owner because of that. 

We all know plenty of wives that have left the boat for things about that trivial, so I have no doubt a forestay would do it.

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4 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:
16 hours ago, DougH said:

Learn to tell the difference between someone who is upset and someone who simply calls out BS for what it is.

?? Bit of an illogical jump there. 

I didn't see anything that strange about Unshirleys post. I could name half a dozen similar situations, we probably all could. Yet you come along and arbitrate it's all utter shite.

Weird. 

I've found over the years that some people bullshit a lot, others bullshit very little. Almost every sailor will at least exaggerate his favorite sea story(s). But usually, the outlandish and illogical tales, the kind of thing that nobody could really invent as fiction, are not only true but understated.

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Did any of these suffer some catastrophic failure ?

narrow easily driven shallow draft is a recipe for low stresses, so probably good for durability in the long run.

Though I can see why they don't like going upwind :

6_4.jpg

For a purely cruising boat, the question is can they sail (even slightly) upwind in 50 knots TWS ?

I imagine if you start pinching they go sideway! If you let her "run", may be not so bad...

It's not that they can't go up wind. They just don't like pounding.  I used to do S turns to avoid pounding in anything over 25 knots with TWA around 45 to 40 and pinching up when the sea state would allow it. 

Now I just plan our Catalina trips to avoid those conditions. 

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22 hours ago, tane said:

...do they have rudder bearings these days? The one I talked the owner of in the 90s had the ruddershaft turning in a gelcoated tube...

Several of the early racing versions upgraded to carbonfiber custom rudders that were about 18" deeper and elliptical with Harken roller bearing rudder bearings.  We got plans from Alan and reshaped our stock rudder and pumped the rudder tube full of grease. No more loading up and far fewer round ups. But, we didn't get any weight out of the back of the bus.

My brother is a surfboard shaper and Alan told us the laminate schedule.  I hauled the boat at the yard I was managing and my brother reshaped the rudder.

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15 minutes ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

It's not that they can't go up wind. They just don't like pounding.  I used to do S turns to avoid pounding in anything over 25 knots with TWA around 45 to 40 and pinching up when the sea state would allow it. 

Now I just plan our Catalina trips to avoid those conditions. 

Gentlemen DON"T cruise to windward!

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6 hours ago, Tom O'Keefe said:

It's not that they can't go up wind. They just don't like pounding.  I used to do S turns to avoid pounding in anything over 25 knots with TWA around 45 to 40 and pinching up when the sea state would allow it. 

Now I just plan our Catalina trips to avoid those conditions. 

40 to 45 TWA is not bad at all...

I am surprised that such a narrow boat pounds.

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1 minute ago, Panoramix said:

40 to 45 TWA is not bad at all...

I am surprised that such a narrow boat pounds.

It flexes. So, pounding is not a good thing. Long slow transitions like surfing down the back of a wave and the flex is not a bad thing. Pounding to weather, everything goes slack and reloads...not a good thing.

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On 9/10/2021 at 9:40 AM, tane said:

...do they have rudder bearings these days? The one I talked the owner of in the 90s had the ruddershaft turning in a gelcoated tube...

Is that a bad thing?  My '70s tiller steered 36 footer has  that setup.  The (no gelcoat) FG  tube top is bonded to the cockpit seat so there's no possibility of leaks and it's a skeg rudder so the rudderstock is supported top and bottom and throughout the tube.  Sideloads on the tube are practically nil.  There's a Zerk fitting at the middle of the tube so maintenance consists of pumping water pump grease into the tube every few years 'till it oozes out at the tiller head which rests on a 1/2" thick Bakelite washer and there's no play in the tiller connection.

The rudder action is silky smooth with zero slop or rough spots.  It's a joy to steer and friends agree it's the sweetest tiller they've ever handled, so it's not just me.  Sometimes old school is better although with the advent of balanced spade rudders the scenario has changed and a bearing mounted rudderstock with massive hull reinforcement is necessary.  A simple tube would quickly wear out from side loads.

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On 9/11/2021 at 2:22 PM, Tom O'Keefe said:

It flexes. So, pounding is not a good thing. Long slow transitions like surfing down the back of a wave and the flex is not a bad thing. Pounding to weather, everything goes slack and reloads...not a good thing.

aha. it seems the broken forestay story has some truth to it, after all.

and for the record. what is even slightly odd about a sailing couple heading out, and the wife jumping ship first chance? I've even heard about an entire class of sailboat in Hawaii labeled the "divorce boat".

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40 minutes ago, floater said:

aha. it seems the broken forestay story has some truth to it, after all.

and for the record. what is even slightly odd about a sailing couple heading out, and the wife jumping ship first chance? I've even heard about an entire class of sailboat in Hawaii labeled the "divorce boat".

OK Floater, I take your point and will eat crow on this one. I was out of line. We now have heard from a Mac 65 owner confirming the forestay stress issue. My apologies to all.

And yes, wives can do some strong things for the oddest reasons --- so that is also totally believable as well.

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On 9/12/2021 at 5:31 AM, Teener said:

Not to worry, the build manual does not specifically require a wrench.

Toolbox Essentials - Extreme How To

it does, it just doesn't/didn't actually specify which one

spanner.jpg

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there's an A division wooden boat in auckland called "Innismara" AKA  the flying pencil that was designed on a piece of wallpaper, recently restored and looking pretty good, I dont have the figures re LOA , beam or draft ,....... anyone ???

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/10/2021 at 1:43 PM, unShirley said:

I have two MacGregor stories:

1. (second hand) A local, well respected and successful racer here for whom I crewed regularly before the pandemic, has a brother that came into a money windfall.  Bro wants to buy a sailboat and cruise, despite limited experience.  My friend advised him against it. Bro finds a MacGregor 65 and wants to buy it.  My friend advised him against it.  He advised to go smaller, say 40' - 50'.  Bro buys the Mac 65 and dumps a bunch more money into prepping for cruising. My friend advised him against it. Finally, bro and wife are ready to set sail from Texas, heading to W/L islands.  Being a good brother, my friend relents and goes to help crew on first leg. He asked me to come along, too, but being a mere fair weather friend, I declined (thank god).  They set out, upwind of course,  and have a miserable couple of days until the forestay breaks.  Rig does not come down, being held up by halyards.  They pull into Mississippi, wife jumps off vowing never to go sailing again.  Boat stays put in Mississippi while bro tries to sort it out, eventually giving up and putting it up for sale again.  My friend, who is my age and size (6'3", 195 lbs)  reports back that the boat is small, cramped and uncomfortable for a 65 footer.  That he had a hard time down below going forward of the saloon due to lack of head room.

2.  circa 1985 I helped the legendary D. Randy West (RIP) deliver from St Maarten to Martinique a MacGregor 36 catamaran, which we then raced in the first annual Martinique Grand Prix.  We pushed that boat very hard in the tradewinds necessitating that often one of us had to go down below in the starboard hull to bail the water out of the bilge and into the sink from a leaky daggerboard trunk.  During the delivery the starboard shroud broke, noodling the mast.  We pulled into St. Bart and temporarily fixed it with about 4' of anchor chain.  When we pulled into Martinique, very generous and hospitable locals took us to their home for a shower and bed, took us to a chandlery so we could properly repair the rig, and helped us make it to the start line.  As we pushed the boat, it flexed, the winches were compressing into the deck while the cleats were pulling up on the deck.  The mast had an S shape above the spreaders and eventually folded over during the last race.  My point of this story is:  While that boat was fast and fun to sail, it was also scary due to its fragility.

I can add to the concerns about the 36 cat.  In 1994 I worked at a small sail loft in St. Thomas.  One of the other sailmakers owned a Mac 36 with a retrofitted mast from an old C&C which had been holed in a hurricane (wonder if it was the same 36)?  We built a large roached main and a masthead asymetric kite which we ran to tack lines on each of the hulls, pulling the tack to the weather hull.  We entered the St. Maarten Heineken regatta.  During the around the island race we were reaching along and flying a hull periodically, all the while watching the winches and cleats flexing the deck.  As we cleared the bluffs on the leeward side of the island at about 14-17 kts (analog speedo), we began to turn up following the shoreline, but were now exposed to the swells.  We made it over the first 2 or 3, but were increasingly concerned about the "snowplowing"/toe-in we were seeing as we crashed off the back side of the waves when the bow of the leeward hull slammed down.  The forestay bridal would go noticeably slack and then spring back into tension as the bow popped back up. 

We just started to discuss throttling back when we heard the loud bang of heavily loaded equipment breaking.  We eased everything off and started to look around to see what broke.  The most obvious thing was that even without much loading and now on a reach, the forestay was very slack and the two bows had significant toe-in.  Rather than sailing on two parallel hulls, we were pushing a "v" through the water.  After more inspection, we figured out that the front beam (which the mast sits on) which ties the hulls together, had punched through  and was sticking out the outside of the leeward hull.  Essentially the beam was designed to pass through the inside wall (think starboard side of port hull) of the hull and then butt up against the outer wall (port side of port hull) of the hull.  The compression loads from crashing off the waves at those speeds literally blew the front main support beam out the side of the leeward hull.

We were able to tack over so the damaged hull was on the weather side to minimize water intake and flag another boat down for a tow back to the harbor.  I'm still not sure whatever happened to that boat, but the lesson we learned was that older Macs were not safe to turbo without significant structural reinforcement.

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