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My 111 is really, really wet...


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I see water coming in past the mast partners, and water coming in through the bowsprit sleeve. I don't see any leaking ports or hatches or anywhere else water is coming in. We sailed a 60nm race this weekend, started dry, and after no rain and just 3 foot seas, had plenty of water on board, to the point where some even got into the battery cases. 

Regarding the bowsprit, I'm told that it is expected to come into the sleeve and fall into the anchor locker and drain off the boat from there. It does seem that there is some kind of seal but we see water draining out of it inside the vee berth.

Is this normal or can I stop it?

Thanks...

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 George (J) lift the lid look inside that anchor locker above and outboard the pole tube. Whoever built the 109's had a bad habit of neglecting to glass the hard to access areas. That is, no attempt whatsoever to seal the tube yielding large gaps at hull/flange. On port tack the anchor locker fills and doesn't drain so fast. Water enters the boat at the gap behind the tube. In one case it ran aft to BMax and heavily stained the cherry ceiling strips in main cabin. The owner was in disbelief the interior damage came from a gap the size of your fist in the anchor locker.

 Those 109 style anchor locker leaks will send water aft inside the boats quickly

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Were you sure that the boat was completely dry (i e lifted all the floorboard, and dried out every small compartment). It's not uncommon to have a "dry boat" and then heel over to find water was stuck inside the structure and everywhere else. Like the damn nav seat :unsure:

From what you're describing you might have another issue. Not sure if US and Euro boats are different, but our sprit is almost dry. Maybe 2-3 liters after a 600 nm race. We even made a cover to put over the sprit for really rough upwind races as well as sealing the anchor locker with Sikaflex (collects lots of water in big seas).

Maybe a new seal would do the trick?

The big thing for us is waves getting down the companionway and wet sails and gear. Otherwise we've managed to get the boat very dry.

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2 hours ago, PeterRoss said:

 George (J) lift the lid look inside that anchor locker above and outboard the pole tube. Whoever built the 109's had a bad habit of neglecting to glass the hard to access areas. That is, no attempt whatsoever to seal the tube yielding large gaps at hull/flange.

Thank you Peter I'll check that.

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21 minutes ago, Blur said:

Were you sure that the boat was completely dry (i e lifted all the floorboard, and dried out every small compartment). It's not uncommon to have a "dry boat" and then heel over to find water was stuck inside the structure and everywhere else. Like the damn nav seat :unsure:

From what you're describing you might have another issue. Not sure if US and Euro boats are different, but our sprit is almost dry. Maybe 2-3 liters after a 600 nm race. We even made a cover to put over the sprit for really rough upwind races as well as sealing the anchor locker with Sikaflex (collects lots of water in big seas).

Maybe a new seal would do the trick?

The big thing for us is waves getting down the companionway and wet sails and gear. Otherwise we've managed to get the boat very dry.

 

Actually just a few weeks ago I took up a floor board to run a wire, and found water was not draining. So, I took them all up and unclogged the weep holes that connect them all. The water started to dain reasonably well. True I didn't check under each board before this race, but I did check the bilge and it was dry. 

I'll check the seals and the anchor locker carefully, sounds like you and Peter are thinking about the same area for water intrusion. This race, the companionway was not the issue. It was not very rough at all. Thanks!

 

 

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Thanks everyone. 

Does this look right, or should those partners be pushed down closer to the deck? (I have no idea why it's upside down and couldn't figure out how to rotate it). 

IMG_3334.thumb.JPG.6629d69bb6a1dbd2e37670432ebb94a8.JPG

 

 

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There are elastic tapes to seal the mast at the partners. We have had good experience using it. Some boats also have a neoprene cover, but that has to be put on the mast before stepping.

Also if you have issues with water entering through the bowsprit housing, you might want to close the front of the bowsprit with a ball or whatever fits. It is by far the biggest opening of the housing.

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On my boat the mast is sealed at the partners with a lot (and I mean a lot) of self vulcanizing tape. This has been completely watertight.

If the boat has been on the dock and it has rained a lot,  there is water in the bilge which entered via the mast openings of the halyards.

When sailing there is water entering via the sprit.  I don't think this is because it enters via the front seal in the bow (yes, waters enter through it,  but it will fall down in the anchor locker).  I believe waters is flushed over the anchor locker at the deck (when sailing on port tack).  From there it falls on the sprint beneath it and then enters through the sprit seal in the bulkhead onto the v-berth.   I plan to solve this by making a kind of "roof" above the sprit inside the anchor locker.  This way the water will not fall onto the sprit but will fall on the roof and then drain into the bottom of the locker.   Of course, sealing the locker with Sika is even better,  but maybe something you don't want at all time.

 

 

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5 hours ago, George Dewey said:

Thanks everyone. 

Does this look right, or should those partners be pushed down closer to the deck? (I have no idea why it's upside down and couldn't figure out how to rotate it). 

IMG_3334.thumb.JPG.6629d69bb6a1dbd2e37670432ebb94a8.JPG

 

 

Looks like you've solved the problem by turning everything upside down. That should minimise water running in down the mast.

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seal it. looks like you have no mast collar. seal it with Vulcatape, and have a mast collar made. fix the mast collar with the spanners.

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1 hour ago, JMOD said:

seal it. looks like you have no mast collar. seal it with Vulcatape, and have a mast collar made. fix the mast collar with the spanners.

Looks like there used to be a neoprene mast collar, as evidenced by the 2 large “hose” clamps lying at the base of the mast???

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I did some googling I see what you all mean about the mast collar / boot. I'll start with that the vulcanized tape and boot, thanks. 

Should the partners be tapped in further, or is it normal for them to stick up like that?

 

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What longy said.  It's not unusual for the chocks to stick up above deck like that.  You do want full contact with the mast and partner ring to the depth of the partners.  Its also ok for them to stick out the bottom some.  Its not ok if they are only partial down.

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13 hours ago, George Dewey said:

I have no idea why it's upside down

This could be the reason you have water coming in :lol: 

I laminated a note that's useful offshore as well "Keel down, mast up" 

On the partners, ideally they spread the load equally on deck/collar. Euro boats has a full "collar" in hard foam that slides on to the mast and starts 10 mm above the deck fitting and ends 10 mm below the deck in the cabin. Bigger version of the J/80 part below. Attention to details.

SparcraftMastWedgeS80J80_01.w1220.h1220.

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2 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

Make sure you follow the directions precisely with the Spartite kit! Its a big, expensive, and messy cleanup if you don't.

The SparTite kit looks pretty cool but it's going to be my last resort. The boat is probably going to be going by trailer a few places in the near future and it seems thi is not the best solution when the rig needs to be pulled and replaced a few times a year. That said, if I can't seal it up I'll try it.

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On 9/16/2021 at 4:00 PM, Irrational 14 said:

It's a good system, and it will stick to the mast when rig is down.

Are you saying that since it sticks to the mast when the rig is pulled, it can just stay there and go back in? Or do i need to knock it off and do it all again?

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On 9/8/2021 at 3:39 PM, Caecilian said:

Ill second the self amalgamating tape, stopped all my collar leaks. Don't over stretch it and use plenty 

I did this today, and I probably overstretched it but I used lots and it seemed to adhere to itself well. It's supposed to rain tomorrow so I'll go down during the storm and see how well its working. I'm expecting (well, at least hoping for) a big improvement. All I found locally was 1 inch wide tape, if there is still a lot of leak I'll order wider tape and try again. Failing that, I'll try something else. Thanks!

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I took a close look at the bowsprit system. I saw how it comes through the anchor locker through a seal with an O ring. I see how it is supposed to work, but it seemed the O ring was not at all tight on the bowsprit. I am guessing the O ring is just worn out. It is sandwiched between two white plastic blocks that are screwed together, and I think changing it would be easy enough. Well, maybe the sprit has to come completely out but even thats probably not too bad. 

I checked the owners manual and did some Googling, no luck. Does anyone know what the seal is? If it's the same as on a 109 then I have a part number, otherwise, no idea. 

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My SparTite donut goes in and out with the mast many times. Even stayed there for mast painting while out. For me it slides out of the mast collar thing which always stays screwed to the deck. You need the 4” tape. It only lasts a few years. For me it only protects the boot from UV and hides the lower clamp strap. 

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9 hours ago, George Dewey said:

I did this today, and I probably overstretched it but I used lots and it seemed to adhere to itself well. It's supposed to rain tomorrow so I'll go down during the storm and see how well its working. I'm expecting (well, at least hoping for) a big improvement. All I found locally was 1 inch wide tape, if there is still a lot of leak I'll order wider tape and try again. Failing that, I'll try something else. Thanks!

Check the drains in the seal around the floor hatch behind the wheel. If the drains are plugged rain water will enter the hatch. 
 

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43 minutes ago, festus said:

Check the drains in the seal around the floor hatch behind the wheel. If the drains are plugged rain water will enter the hatch. 
 

Thanks!  They were completely plugged, I cleared those a few weeks ago, along with the ones from the wheel well. I should probably replace the seal as well.

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12 hours ago, George Dewey said:

Are you saying that since it sticks to the mast when the rig is pulled, it can just stay there and go back in? Or do i need to knock it off and do it all again?

Yes. When you prep it all before install, lube the mast partner with the Vaseline, not the mast. This keeps the newly poured collar and mast as one unit and better suited for removal. A simple bead of 4200 on the top perimeter will keep it watertight if needed.

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I extend the masking tape 3/8" or so ABOVE the top of the partners. After the pour, I trim this down so there is a slope away from the mast & a rounded edge to the perimeter. This extends the life of the boot & prevents water from pooling around the mast. Spartite will break it's bond to the mast over time, a bead of silicone will restore water proof status.

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  • 2 weeks later...
11 hours ago, Varan said:

@Blur congrats. That was an inspiring article about you and your team in the September issue of Seahorse. 

Thanks. Hadn't seen it until now.

Now ramping up for Rolex Middle Sea Race in a few weeks, and then the boats ships to Ft Lauderdale for our US adventures.

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Just now, Blur said:

Thanks. Hadn't seen it until now.

Now ramping up for Rolex Middle Sea Race in a few weeks, and then the boats ships to Ft Lauderdale for our US adventures.

Can't wait to follow those! Are you doing Southernmost Regatta in Key West (January)?  Charleston Race Week (April)?

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After 20 years of puzzing how the water was coming into my J120 I just discovered that it's from the rudder post bearing. Every butt slap by a big wave is dumping a cup of water in the back end. It's going to a boat yard this winter.

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10 hours ago, Hard On The Wind said:

After 20 years of puzzing how the water was coming into my J120 I just discovered that it's from the rudder post bearing. Every butt slap by a big wave is dumping a cup of water in the back end. It's going to a boat yard this winter.

I have been back there a bunch of times, it's dry and dusty. The vast majority of the issue was solved with the self fusing tape as people here recommended (thanks guys!) and I have not even put the mast boot on yet. I'm now working on the bowsprite seal. Turns out the 111 sprite is the same diameter (4.25 inches) as the 105 and 109, and I'm hoping the same seal works. 

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We had a leak on the coolant pump that filled the engine bilge which would spill over to the main bilge. We couldn't figure out where the water was coming from as the poor engine is generally left to its own devices until it's time for service as long as it runs to get us to and from the race course. We spent time checking for bilge pump back leaks and such. Water tank leaks. Throughhull leaks. It wasn't until I decided to check the sail drive that I found the engine bilge was full of water and the water pump was pissing water into the bilge when it was running.

Fixing that - we get a lot less water... the nav seat always seems to collect water though... the pole not so much.... We did the fastnet this year and stayed generally dry. We drained 2 buckets for the 4+ days of racing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I did a slightly offshore race, about 5 hours in a moderate sea state, and we got quite a lot of water in through the bowsprite. There is a small locker across from the head, right below the end of the sprit and everything in there was drenched. Looking at the thing in the anchor locker, its not clear to me how to replace the seal. Is the seal just sandwiched between the two halves of this white block thats screwed together? These pics were taken from inside the anchor locker. It will be tricky to get some of those screws out.

IMG_3507.JPG

IMG_3508.JPG

IMG_3509.JPG

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How does water find its way from outside the boat and through that seal when there is a 5" gap in the sprit tube?  

Are you sure the water isn't entering through the tip of the sprit and out the open aft end?  

If the seal was the issue the water would end up at the forward v-berth bulkhead, not the across from the head, no?  

We taped the aft end of our sprit, almost all the way to the top.  High enough water can't get out, but allow some air in there so hopefully it dries out, assuming it doesn't just drain out the front.  

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47 minutes ago, Roleur said:

Are you sure the water isn't entering through the tip of the sprit and out the open aft end?  

If the seal was the issue the water would end up at the forward v-berth bulkhead, not the across from the head, no?  

Well the guys told me they saw water running along the outside of the sprite, and draining off the end of it. But that's a great point; still, if this was happening then there would also be water in the vee berth as well. There might be, there is no platform so any water entering there would end up in the bilge. I wonder how much water can get into the end of the sprite. I'll try taping it up as you said, and I'll have a look at the outboard end. I don't recall there being a big hole there though. 

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I have had the same problems.  My mast partners look just like yours.  Mine go flush to the metal top, but they need to be cleaned of any residue and lubricated so they can slide into the steel mast collar.  I have a boot to then cover it and tape that up each season (I take mast out each winter).  I still get some water down the mast, but mostly I think it is from rain water entering the halyard entries.

For the bow sprit, I found the interior collars had come loose due to poor quality of sealant material or workmanship.  I completely removed the bowsprit (not such a big a job as you may think) and resealed these internal collars with 5200.  That seemed to do the trick.  The second thing I did was to seal the endcap on the bowsprit which stopped water from coming down inside the bowsprit.  

Keeping those rear hatch drain holes clear is a routine maintenance item.

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