Trysail tack and downhaul

[Elegua 1,841]

6 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

If you had a non masthead , dedicated trysail halyard , with little or no wind exposed halyard like a masthead halyard , you wouldn’t need a pennant 

I’ve  never seen a small boat with a dedicated trysail halyard 

How small is small?  This was a 44 footer.  

If you are small, and do not have a dedicated halyard but have a dedicated trysail track, how do you keep the halyard from flogging? Honest question. I'm trying to sort this out for real. 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

25 minutes ago, Elegua said:

How small is small?  This was a 44 footer.  

If you are small, and do not have a dedicated halyard but have a dedicated trysail track, how do you keep the halyard from flogging? Honest question. I'm trying to sort this out for real. 

You mean, “do not have a dedicated **internal** halyard” [for trysail], right?  I’m trying to sort this out too.

-do not have a dedicated internal trysail halyard. (Was thinking of using my topping lift,  since boom would be down and secured anyway. 

-trysail would be on a separate track 

-33’ boat

Hadn’t considered the possible issue of a wildly flogging halyard, and ways to deal with.  It’s pretty easy/relatively cheap to install a drop-in sheave box/mast exit (e.g., Harken makes one) and a dedicated trysail halyard.  The question is, is it needed.  If not, how to deal with halyard/head of sail flogging in high winds.

 

[Elegua 1,841]

1 minute ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

You mean, “do not have a dedicated **internal** halyard” [for trysail], right?  I’m trying to understand the same.

-do not have a dedicated internal trysail halyard. (Was thinking of using my topping lift,  since boom would be down and secured anyway. 

-trysail would be on a separate track 

-33’ boat

Hadn’t considered the possible issue of a widely flogging halyard, and ways to deal with.  It’s pretty easy/relatively cheap to install a drop-in sheave box/mast exit (e.g., Harken makes one) and a dedicated trysail halyard.  The question is, is it needed.  If not, how to deal with halyard/head of sail flogging in high winds.

 

Yes. We're roughly the same size by 5'. I might displace a bit more than you, though, I own an iceberg. 

I'm not even differentiating between internal and external. If I'm using the topper/main halyard (which is essentially internchangable for me) then I have a long length of halyard between the head of the trysail and the masthead. Will it vibrate? Will it flog? I'd rather avoid adding yet another line. 

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

9 hours ago, Elegua said:

Yes. We're roughly the same size by 5'. I might displace a bit more than you, though, I own an iceberg. 

I'm not even differentiating between internal and external. If I'm using the topper/main halyard (which is essentially internchangable for me) then I have a long length of halyard between the head of the trysail and the masthead. Will it vibrate? Will it flog? I'd rather avoid adding yet another line. 

 

I say, ask a sailmaker and rigger, like Port Townsend Sails/Rigging...then let me know what their advice is, and I’ll DIM. :-). 

I gotta think/guess that if the halyard (not a dedicated one that exits the mast near the head of the sail, but a masthead one) is quite taut, and there’s also a slide near the top of the pennant (as Slug suggests above), then the halyard won’t flog amd the sail will be spared from self-destruction...just an edjumacated guess...I’d be curious to see what PT Sails/Rigging (or others of that ilk) might say.

[Elegua 1,841]

7 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

I say, ask a sailmaker and rigger, like Port Townsend Sails/Rigging...then let me know what their advice is, and I’ll DIM. :-). 

I gotta think/guess that if the halyard (not a dedicated one that exits the mast near the head of the sail, but a masthead one) is quite taut, and there’s also a slide near the top of the pennant (as Slug suggests above), then the halyard won’t flog amd the sail will be spared from self-destruction...just an edjumacated guess...I’d be curious to see what PT Sails/Rigging (or others of that ilk) might say.

Much appreciated!

[slug zitski 575]

On 10/19/2021 at 10:27 AM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

You mean, “do not have a dedicated **internal** halyard” [for trysail], right?  I’m trying to sort this out too.

-do not have a dedicated internal trysail halyard. (Was thinking of using my topping lift,  since boom would be down and secured anyway. 

-trysail would be on a separate track 

-33’ boat

Hadn’t considered the possible issue of a wildly flogging halyard, and ways to deal with.  It’s pretty easy/relatively cheap to install a drop-in sheave box/mast exit (e.g., Harken makes one) and a dedicated trysail halyard.  The question is, is it needed.  If not, how to deal with halyard/head of sail flogging in high winds.

 

Topping lift is a good solution 

be sure the halyard and masthead sheave are up to the task 

the last time I flew a trysail the masthead length halyard wasn’t wildly slapping around it was “ humming “ 

I could feel the hum when holding the steering wheel 

this was in 40 knots reaching 

the topping lift was a small diameter 8 mm dyneema topping lift 

can’t remember the mainsail luff length , the mast air height was 33 meters 

perhaps a larger diameter double braid polyester halyard would be quieter 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

5 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Topping lift is a good solution 

be sure the halyard and masthead sheave are up to the task 

the last time I flew a trysail the masthead length halyard wasn’t wildly slapping around it was “ humming “ 

I could feel the hum when holding the steering wheel 

this was a small diameter 8 mm dyneema topping lift 

perhaps a larger diameter double braid polyester halyard would be quieter 

In fact, I’m soon to replace my old 3/8” (10mm) topping lift with a new one, slightly larger (7/16”, and double braid), since it needs replacing anyway —it’s old, and so that it can more reliably function as a just-in-case backup main halyard - and now a trysail halyard.  
 

I won’t bother installing a dedicated trysail halyard unless it really seems necessary. One less line at the mast.

[toddster 922]

I too have kind of gone off the "dedicated halyard" idea for now.  A few weeks ago I spent some time hoisting the trysl and trying to work out some of the rigging details.  It occurred to me that if I get serious about using this, I might switch to an entirely different aspect-ratio sail with the head in a different position. (Might make a good sewing project, once I get fully "retired.") The trysail that came down to me is one of those high aspect-ratio/swallowtail affairs.  I can only find a couple of images of boats with similar sails and they seem to be rigged approximately as I have drawn it.  Possibly an older design? Most have much lower heads and the clew points more or less toward the end of the boom.  Anyhow, it is like this by reason of inheritance, not by design.  

I haven't found any cogent explanations of the tall skinny shape.  I wonder if it is intended to act as a sort of "runner" to counteract the storm jib rigged to the topping lift? It all seems designed to take advantage of existing hardware.  Seems to want to be sheeted somewhere near the vicinity of the primary winches.  Easiest thing seems to be just to sheet it to a block on the genoa track. With maybe a lazy sheet available as a twing.  Existing tack pennant appears to want to tack to the reefing horns.

Lazy jack interferences: LJ definitely must be dropped and unclipped from their halyards. At least for this particular sail and these particular LJs. (Maybe simply substitute carabiners for the top rings?) Topping lift must hold up the boom OR lash boom to - something that's not there yet. This seems to preclude the idea floated by Carol Hasse of hoisting the Trysl before "peeling" the main.

Free halyard: We're only talking (for me) about 10 feet - not much more than the second reef.  It would be easy to sew two or three slides to a pennant, as Slug suggests, if I add one more piece of sailtrack.  

Next time the stick is down, I was planning to re-sheave and switch to internals anyway, which would give me a couple of extras.

But basically the extra track is the only "dedicated" thing I've done.  (Oh and re-enforcing the bulkhead under the tack point for the storm jib, but that's not finished yet.)

[Evil Twin says: Hmm... 18 sf of solar panels plus 25 sf of stack pack... and that dodger...  is like, almost the area of the trysail already... Lousy foil shape tho.]

 

(They're not actually orange - it just looks neat that way on the drawing...  We got paint tho.)

 

[slug zitski 575]

3 minutes ago, toddster said:

I too have kind of gone off the "dedicated halyard" idea for now.  A few weeks ago I spent some time hoisting the trysl and trying to work out some of the rigging details.  It occurred to me that if I get serious about using this, I might switch to an entirely different aspect-ratio sail with the head in a different position. (Might make a good sewing project, once I get fully "retired.") The trysail that came down to me is one of those high aspect-ratio/swallowtail affairs.  I can only find a couple of images of boats with similar sails and they seem to be rigged approximately as I have drawn it.  Possibly an older design? Most have much lower heads and the clew points more or less toward the end of the boom.  Anyhow, it is like this by reason of inheritance, not by design.  

I haven't found any cogent explanations of the tall skinny shape.  I wonder if it is intended to act as a sort of "runner" to counteract the storm jib rigged to the topping lift? It all seems designed to take advantage of existing hardware.  Seems to want to be sheeted somewhere near the vicinity of the primary winches.  Easiest thing seems to be just to sheet it to a block on the genoa track. With maybe a lazy sheet available as a twing.  Existing tack pennant appears to want to tack to the reefing horns.

Lazy jack interferences: LJ definitely must be dropped and unclipped from their halyards. At least for this particular sail and these particular LJs. (Maybe simply substitute carabiners for the top rings?) Topping lift must hold up the boom OR lash boom to - something that's not there yet. This seems to preclude the idea floated by Carol Hasse of hoisting the Trysl before "peeling" the main.

Free halyard: We're only talking (for me) about 10 feet - not much more than the second reef.  It would be easy to sew two or three slides to a pennant, as Slug suggests, if I add one more piece of sailtrack.  

Next time the stick is down, I was planning to re-sheave and switch to internals anyway, which would give me a couple of extras.

But basically the extra track is the only "dedicated" thing I've done.  (Oh and re-enforcing the bulkhead under the tack point for the storm jib, but that's not finished yet.)

[Evil Twin says: Hmm... 18 sf of solar panels plus 25 sf of stack pack... and that dodger...  is like, almost the area of the trysail already... Lousy foil shape tho.]

 

(They're not actually orange - it just looks neat that way on the drawing...  We got paint tho.)

 

I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a huge stack pack in a gale 

[toddster 922]

6 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a huge stack pack in a gale 

No, but if it's already blowing 30-35, I'm not gonna try to take anything off.  Just lash it down to the boom as tight as I can.  Except in the scenario when there is a long time to prepare for an expected blow.  I'm thinking more about the scenario of trying to sneak around Cape Mendocino or Cape Blanco and suddenly SHTF.   

[Arcot 1]

With the inner jib/ storm jib shown would just an extra stay be needed set aft bt a couple of feet or running backstays from storm sail head position on mast?

[toddster 922]

47 minutes ago, Arcot said:

With the inner jib/ storm jib shown would just an extra stay be needed set aft bt a couple of feet or running backstays from storm sail head position on mast?

Lots of debate on that.  On a similar but cutterized rig, Bruce King used an "Intermediate aft" stay that would land at about the lifeline gate if copied over. I have it on my plan as a dotted line but didn't show it here. (And have the fittings in a box.)   Seems as if it would constrain the boom quite a bit going down wind so perhaps best done as removable. But then why not run it farther aft?  

There was something similar done on the tall version of this rig for a "spinnaker staysail" or some such thing, but that had another set of spreaders and intermediates.

[Elegua 1,841]

So after all that, the jump over the gooseneck and the winch pads is too far for a clean set-up with a track. Very expensive and a bit kudgey to rig a track. 

Instead the rigger is suggesting a dyneema stay. It would be a pad-eye on the mast panel above the second spreader with a block.  Coastal cruising this can all go away and then rigged before passage.  

Reasonably idea? I've seen this on race boats. 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

5 hours ago, Elegua said:

So after all that, the jump over the gooseneck and the winch pads is too far for a clean set-up with a track. Very expensive and a bit kudgey to rig a track. 

Instead the rigger is suggesting a dyneema stay. It would be a pad-eye on the mast panel above the second spreader with a block.  Coastal cruising this can all go away and then rigged before passage.  

Reasonably idea? I've seen this on race boats. 

Dyneema stay for what?  I’m not recalling the previous discussion.   Not that I have any advice to share, just curious what you’re referring to.

[toddster 922]

Free flying trysail instead of a track?

My problem with that (at least, in my mind...) was that such external pad eye & associated hardware would chafe the main.  (Same sort of problem with a track, unless the halyard is tamed all the way to the masthead, as discussed up-thread.)  

[Elegua 1,841]

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Dyneema stay for what?  I’m not recalling the previous discussion.   Not that I have any advice to share, just curious what you’re referring to.

A dyneema stay for a trysail. I talked a lot about a track for the trysail but I have these aluminum castings riveted to the mast for the winches and the gooseneck that create obstacles that are a bit too long a jump for any track.  So instead it looks to be a dyneema stay that runs from the mast collar to a padeye on the mast. It's WIP, so we'll see where we end up. 

55 minutes ago, toddster said:

Free flying trysail instead of a track?

My problem with that (at least, in my mind...) was that such external pad eye & associated hardware would chafe the main.  (Same sort of problem with a track, unless the halyard is tamed all the way to the masthead, as discussed up-thread.)  

Not free-flying. On a stay. Probably difficult to get sufficient tension on it. I do have one of those polygon shaped Isomat masts, so it is angled away a bit. Still might be an issue downwind. 

[fufkin 641]

On 10/20/2021 at 3:34 PM, toddster said:

 

 

(They're not actually orange - it just looks neat that way on the drawing...  We got paint tho.)

 

My storm jib is actually orange. It’s thick as a brick and has long pennants. I’ve never actually used it.

The idea is that it helps others see you. White blends in with white caps over long range.

 

[toddster 922]

Yeah, I think racing rules (and maybe others) say they should be orange or have an orange stripe.  Mine didn't come that way though.

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

On 10/20/2021 at 12:34 PM, toddster said:

 

 

Lazy Jack interference...

(They're not actually orange - it just looks neat that way on the drawing...  We got paint tho.)

 

Tie dye?

Yeah mine are white too.  I’m ok with that.

I only discovered lazy jack interference doing a test hoist the other day: I don’t recall snagging them up the mast track earlier, in the numerous times I’ve raised it throughout the track installation process.  Weird. But I always seem to have like 25 projects on the go, amd I get most of most things done, and then there’s lots of niggling details left to be discovered and sorted out.  I haven’t done a totally full dry run bend on sail/pre-sheet/test hoist, etc etc due to lack of time so far.  I’ll get there.  Surprising amount of details to get sorted.  (Sail colour being the least of them... :-)  But I get the idea of the coloured sails...for the next set of storm sails.)

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,427]

3 hours ago, Elegua said:

A dyneema stay for a trysail. I talked a lot about a track for the trysail but I have these aluminum castings riveted to the mast for the winches and the gooseneck that create obstacles that are a bit too long a jump for any track.  So instead it looks to be a dyneema stay that runs from the mast collar to a padeye on the mast. It's WIP, so we'll see where we end up. 

Not free-flying. On a stay. Probably difficult to get sufficient tension on it. I do have one of those polygon shaped Isomat masts, so it is angled away a bit. Still might be an issue downwind. 

I see.  That’s a shame.  Trying to picture how that (Dyneema stay) would work - curious to know what you do.  

I’m surprised how easy mine was to install - lucked out - easy except for plenty of trips up the mast over several weeks, including removing the top section of track to drill out for more fasteners at the very top and then re-installing.  Many mast climbs this winter and spring!

[toddster 922]

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Tie dye?

Yeah mine are white too.  I’m ok with that.

I only discovered lazy jack interference doing a test hoist the other day: I don’t recall snagging them up the mast track earlier, in the numerous times I’ve raised it throughout the track installation process.  Weird. But I always seem to have like 25 projects on the go, amd I get most of most things done, and then there’s lots of niggling details left to be discovered and sorted out.  I haven’t done a totally full dry run bend on sail/pre-sheet/test hoist, etc etc due to lack of time so far.  I’ll get there.  Surprising amount of details to get sorted.  (Sail colour being the least of them... :-)  But I get the idea of the coloured sails...for the next set of storm sails.)

[toddster 922]

Just now, toddster said:

I once tried tie-dying some shirts in acid mine drainage (during a field project.) But they weren't quite dry when I went through inspection at the airport and the military police took them.