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10 hours ago, JimC said:

Mind you if its where I think it is are they about to cross the hovercraft route?

 

Hovercraft? Must be before my time as I can't remember hovercraft there.

 

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29 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

That aside I have always rather fancied an 800.

They're great boats really. Sure there are some niggles, but they hit a pretty decent niche and open up really decent performance to a lot more amateurs.  

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4 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

again, video from RS

Oh s**t! You're posting and in good spirits, I'll assume (and hope) you didn't get hurt (IIRC there was a nasty incident with a 49er trapeze in recent times).

Root cause?

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No, luckily went going up wind so I didn't have any feet in foot loops. Managed to grab the rack too and haul myself back in without capsizing. If it had gone downwind with my foot in the loop I would have almost certainly broke an ankle. 

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I'll also add that the crew's trap ring is a huge hazard and should be replaced for a ronstan ring. I hate those rings. They can get stuck on the hook (and have for me, even bottom section). And caused a drowning some years ago in Annapolis. 

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18 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

They can get stuck on the hook (and have for me, even bottom section). And caused a drowning some years ago in Annapolis. 

Not something I've had happen so it would be useful to know how. We did have one that bent, but we never knew how it got bent. That's why mine are different now. 



 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

That Annapolis tragedy was absolutely horrible. One in HI also but higher performancr boat?

 

The Hawaii incident was different. The hook got caught on the rack netting. 

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4 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

The Hawaii incident was different. The hook got caught on the rack netting. 

The Hawaii incident, which was with an 18' skiff, had a lot more complexity than just the hook getting caught. One of the big factors was the wearing of a life jacket/ buoyancy aid and that was over the top of the trapeze harness. It caused 2 problems. First, there is a reason why 18's don't use buoyancy aids - to get out from under a turtled boat you need to dive down a reasonable distance because the wings and associated ropes are a fair way below where the upturned boat floats. You cannot get down far enough with any buoyancy. Depending where you are caught in the boat, sometimes diving down is the only answer. This is a problem you really don't get with other boats. The other thing that this incident highlighted was that you cannot get the harness off with anything over the top - the trend of wearing buoyancy and rash vests over the harness causes issues. Finally, the incident highlighted the need for knives to be carried.

Immediately after this incident, the 18's brought in 2 rules. First, harnesses must be worn as the outer layer with nothing over the top. Second, a knife had to be attached to the rudder gantry in the same place on all boats.

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On 9/17/2021 at 12:22 AM, Mozzy Sails said:

No, luckily went going up wind so I didn't have any feet in foot loops. Managed to grab the rack too and haul myself back in without capsizing. If it had gone downwind with my foot in the loop I would have almost certainly broke an ankle. 

I can't find it now, but there is a video of Chris Nicholson on his 18 with his foot caught and being towed at pretty high speed. No broken ankle, but a lot of pain (I think damaged ligaments) and pretty scary. I also remember Pete Greenhagh badly damaging his knee in 49ers at Hyere because of a foot loop entrapment. Because of these incidents, I am paranoid about getting foot loops to be set correctly so they keep you on the boat but your foot comes out if needed. Too tight and the foot won't come out - too loose and the foot goes in too far and gets caught. It's why I like the adjustable Magic Marine ones. On the A Class, most sail with a foot in a loop both upwind and downwind. I have fallen off in both directions at full speed, once due to a broken wire and the other time, rather bizarrely, because I hadn't hooked on properly but just well enough to support me until I hit top speed. Making sure your foot comes out is vital.

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Yeah, our loops are set so we come out in a pitchpole. But a trapeze break is pretty hard to set up for as you fall first directly down. The answer is really to have trapeze lines which don't fail!

On inspection the trapeze eye for T had a slightly flat inside edge and the dyneema wore through at the terminal. The lines were pretty thin, but still quite a margin on the break strength and they were only just a year old. They were just the eyes that came with the boat, and checking out spare set of wires the eyes are much smoother. I've ordered a new set of eyes now and will probably run an outer over the dyneema at the eye to further protect from chafe. 

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12 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

The Hawaii incident was different. The hook got caught on the rack netting. 

So, what's dangerous about the crew's ring we have. I would genuinely like to know! 

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13 hours ago, dohertpk said:

@Mozzy Sails Can we expect a video review of the nationals? Congrats on your result btw!

thanks! I always mean to film at the nationals, but it adds a bit of stress sorting camera's etc. whilst also trying to compete at your best. So, I don't have any footage, sorry. RS got a little and there's some sweet photos, so maybe I'll do a post event review.

I'll be going to the endeavour and will do some filming around that for sure, probably more a behind the scenes thing on the event, interviews with other competitors etc. It's a great chance to get a lot of the top sailors from a good cross section of UK dinghy classes in one place. 

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3 hours ago, Mozzy Sails said:

Yeah, our loops are set so we come out in a pitchpole. But a trapeze break is pretty hard to set up for as you fall first directly down. The answer is really to have trapeze lines which don't fail!

On inspection the trapeze eye for T had a slightly flat inside edge and the dyneema wore through at the terminal. The lines were pretty thin, but still quite a margin on the break strength and they were only just a year old. They were just the eyes that came with the boat, and checking out spare set of wires the eyes are much smoother. I've ordered a new set of eyes now and will probably run an outer over the dyneema at the eye to further protect from chafe. 

At a recent local race an F16 had the exact same failure mode, with the twist that both trapezes were from a single line, 2 tails off a Brummel lock loop.

So helm and crew dropped simultaneously in the drink, tiller extension snapped, boat sailed away and capsized. A bit of a swim to catch it, but they had all the fleet watching after them - they had been leading, so we all saw them drop and converged over them.

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On 9/18/2021 at 5:29 PM, Mozzy Sails said:

Yeah, our loops are set so we come out in a pitchpole. But a trapeze break is pretty hard to set up for as you fall first directly down. The answer is really to have trapeze lines which don't fail!

On inspection the trapeze eye for T had a slightly flat inside edge and the dyneema wore through at the terminal. The lines were pretty thin, but still quite a margin on the break strength and they were only just a year old. They were just the eyes that came with the boat, and checking out spare set of wires the eyes are much smoother. I've ordered a new set of eyes now and will probably run an outer over the dyneema at the eye to further protect from chafe. 

This is exactly the reason I changed back to wire traps from Dymema .

Would renew the lines every season but had one fail during a nationals , cost me a good place and an expensive carbon / kevlar tiller extension .

To make matters worse the trap line  looked to have failed at a point that had no visible chafing or damage at around the bottom 1/3rd of it's length .

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On 9/18/2021 at 8:29 AM, SimonN said:

I can't find it now, but there is a video of Chris Nicholson on his 18 with his foot caught and being towed at pretty high speed. No broken ankle, but a lot of pain (I think damaged ligaments) and pretty scary. I also remember Pete Greenhagh badly damaging his knee in 49ers at Hyere because of a foot loop entrapment. Because of these incidents, I am paranoid about getting foot loops to be set correctly so they keep you on the boat but your foot comes out if needed. Too tight and the foot won't come out - too loose and the foot goes in too far and gets caught. It's why I like the adjustable Magic Marine ones. On the A Class, most sail with a foot in a loop both upwind and downwind. I have fallen off in both directions at full speed, once due to a broken wire and the other time, rather bizarrely, because I hadn't hooked on properly but just well enough to support me until I hit top speed. Making sure your foot comes out is vital.

Anyone have the video would love to see it?

 

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On 9/18/2021 at 3:00 AM, Mozzy Sails said:

So, what's dangerous about the crew's ring we have. I would genuinely like to know! 

Page 17
https://cdn.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Dinghy-Entrapment-Report_Final.pdf

Basically, there's places other than the intended section of the loop on those larger rings that your hook can snag on, and be difficult to remove from without the correct orientation. Say for example you turtle, flipping to face down in the water (to match your orientation when you snagged) to remove yourself just isn't going to happen.

 

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The trapeze hoop in the that report is one with a block in, like the ronstan one Mustang suggests... so I am still no clearer. 

I guess this is the problem, it's hard to act on other peoples experience as unless they qualify it with some sort of illustration / description it's hard to weight it.

I know of others who don't like the rings my crew has as they accidently hook in to the top of the hoop. But I've only heard it described as an annoyance rather than a safety issue. I also think that this is perhaps how we bent the other set of ours (which are now replaced for helm) as if you hook in to top section, as you load it it pulls on the middle bar and bends the whole ring against your hook plate on the harness. But... we didn't actually see that happen, it's just a theory. 

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@Mozzy Sails You can look up the real report on the AYC incident, but my understanding is that it was the typical two part loop and that the upper section allowed an additional point that is hard to extract from. Know the image in that publication may be different, but those tests happened because of that particular incident, and the point is that the rings snag and hold you under and reducing that is a good thing. In your case, I'm suggesting that adding an additional, smaller opening above is risky and unnecessary. Or at least tape it shut.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/18/2021 at 8:29 AM, SimonN said:

I can't find it now, but there is a video of Chris Nicholson on his 18 with his foot caught and being towed at pretty high speed. No broken ankle, but a lot of pain (I think damaged ligaments) and pretty scary. I also remember Pete Greenhagh badly damaging his knee in 49ers at Hyere because of a foot loop entrapment. Because of these incidents, I am paranoid about getting foot loops to be set correctly so they keep you on the boat but your foot comes out if needed. Too tight and the foot won't come out - too loose and the foot goes in too far and gets caught. It's why I like the adjustable Magic Marine ones. On the A Class, most sail with a foot in a loop both upwind and downwind. I have fallen off in both directions at full speed, once due to a broken wire and the other time, rather bizarrely, because I hadn't hooked on properly but just well enough to support me until I hit top speed. Making sure your foot comes out is vital.

found the video 

 

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On 9/20/2021 at 4:26 PM, Roller Skates said:

Page 17
https://cdn.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Dinghy-Entrapment-Report_Final.pdf

Basically, there's places other than the intended section of the loop on those larger rings that your hook can snag on, and be difficult to remove from without the correct orientation. Say for example you turtle, flipping to face down in the water (to match your orientation when you snagged) to remove yourself just isn't going to happen.

 

Thanks for posting that link to  the capsize report, well worth reading.

Any concensus on whether "pinnies" are a useful safety addition?

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2 hours ago, SpudH said:

Thanks for posting that link to  the capsize report, well worth reading.

Any concensus on whether "pinnies" are a useful safety addition?

They help hide the lifejacket and harness straps if thats what ur asking?

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On 9/17/2021 at 5:17 PM, fastyacht said:

I rhink I dont understand the mode of entrapment en Annapolis

The ring was a hoop (oblong oval) with the wire connected to the top, and the trap hook going to the bottom. The style hoop also has a welded bar in the middle. I've never been sure if the intent of that bar was to be a high-hook position, or to hold the bungie return cord. I usually taped the hell out of the top section to try and keep my hook out of it. At any rate, it can be difficult to get the hook out of the top ring, especially if you taped it - but in general the geometry can lead to the hook not popping off cleanly when the system is unloaded, especially of the ring goes sideways on the hook. The solution is to use the Ronstan ring, which I never had an issue with, as opposed to the default Vanguard/LP rings or the RWO ring. 

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45 minutes ago, mustang__1 said:

The ring was a hoop (oblong oval) with the wire connected to the top, and the trap hook going to the bottom. The style hoop also has a welded bar in the middle. I've never been sure if the intent of that bar was to be a high-hook position, or to hold the bungie return cord. I usually taped the hell out of the top section to try and keep my hook out of it. At any rate, it can be difficult to get the hook out of the top ring, especially if you taped it - but in general the geometry can lead to the hook not popping off cleanly when the system is unloaded, especially of the ring goes sideways on the hook. The solution is to use the Ronstan ring, which I never had an issue with, as opposed to the default Vanguard/LP rings or the RWO ring. 

Thank you for the details. 

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