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Two boats rounding mark in opposite directions.


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This really happened in today's race.  The SI (for reasons that made sense to nobody but the RC) specified a starboard rounding.  WTF?  Unfortunately, one boat didn't read the SI carefully enough and thought they were doing a port rounding.  As far as I can tell, rule 18 applies; both boats are required to leave the mark on the same side (regardless of the fact that one of them doesn't know that) and they're both in the zone.  None of the exceptions in 18.1(a)-(d) apply.  They're clearly overlapped, so 18.2 applies, but beats me which boat is inside or outside.  The next mark was upwind, so proper course to the next mark for S would be to harden up to close hauled on starboard, not that I think that matters to the rule.

Any idea what rules actually apply here?  In reality, S hailed to P that this was a starboard rounding and P headed up to round the proper way, several boat-lengths behind P, and got to chat about it back at the bar.  I was the skipper of S.  Last I saw, the skipper of P was looking for the RC chair to give him shit about putting starboard roundings in the SI.

 

port-starboard-rounding.graffle.thumb.jpg.9278c001c6c32b0492fff1c0dab549fd.jpg

 

 

 

 

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Port boat must yield to starboard boat. Even if starboard boat is sailing the wrong course and/or rounding the mark in the wrong direction. Overlap and "proper course" will not apply. The boat sailing the wrong way around the course will be screwed with a DNF in the end.

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As the diagram shows, i reckon:

S is Standon for Tack and Rounding as directed by SI. So even if S had yeilded for safety reasons, then got back oncourse and hoisted the protest rag, S is still winner and P as DougH says is a DNF.

P can go ranting to RC but if its in the SI Thems the rules. 
Not a bad idea to occasionally change course and roundings etc up, keep people on their toes and more interesting, especially if its a downwind rounding with Spinnakers.
 

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OP's initial analysis is spot on.

The following apply

In determining the right of an inside boat to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), it is irrelevant that boats are on widely differing courses, provided that an overlap exists when the first of them reaches the zone.
 
and
 
Silhouette vs. Air Boss
 
When rule 18 applies, there must be both an “inside” and an “outside” boat in order for rule 18.2 to create rights and obligations. When boats are approaching a mark from different directions, there may be no “inside” or “outside” boat, in which case the rules of Section A and B apply.
 
I think you can apply the US Appeal here, so neither boat is the inside boat so neither boat is required to give mark-room and its straight up rule 10.
 
Suppose the angle between the boats' courses was a little more acute, that is, both sailing a little deeper and converging about at the mark.
 
In that case, they are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and now, P is clearly inside S, S is required to give P mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
 
The each go their separate sides of the mark and meet up, P/S downwind of the mark.  So P does not keep clear of S and breaks rule 10, regardless of any mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).
On valid protest penalise P.
 
And give P a kick in the nuts for arguing with the RO.  The course is the course written in the SI.
 
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16 minutes ago, Brass said:

OP's initial analysis is spot on.

The following apply

In determining the right of an inside boat to mark-room under rule 18.2(b), it is irrelevant that boats are on widely differing courses, provided that an overlap exists when the first of them reaches the zone.
 
and
 
Silhouette vs. Air Boss
 
When rule 18 applies, there must be both an “inside” and an “outside” boat in order for rule 18.2 to create rights and obligations. When boats are approaching a mark from different directions, there may be no “inside” or “outside” boat, in which case the rules of Section A and B apply.
 
I think you can apply the US Appeal here, so neither boat is the inside boat so neither boat is required to give mark-room and its straight up rule 10.
 
Suppose the angle between the boats' courses was a little more acute, that is, both sailing a little deeper and converging about at the mark.
 
In that case, they are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and now, P is clearly inside S, S is required to give P mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
 
The each go their separate sides of the mark and meet up, P/S downwind of the mark.  So P does not keep clear of S and breaks rule 10, regardless of any mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).
On valid protest penalise P.
 
And give P a kick in the nuts for arguing with the RO.  The course is the course written in the SI.
 

That was an interesting experience with the J/105 pole stuck in the 40.7 wheel after we got all tangled up...

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9 minutes ago, ExOmo said:

That was an interesting experience with the J/105 pole stuck in the 40.7 wheel after we got all tangled up...

I bet it helped both boats get up on plane

:ph34r:

To the OP- yes, starboard has right-of-way.

FB- Doug

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17 minutes ago, ExOmo said:

That was an interesting experience with the J/105 pole stuck in the 40.7 wheel after we got all tangled up...

Pics or video? :o

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We had a 60 miler back in the day- Mooloolaba to Manly. Two fleets - one going all the way back to manly (leaving the Fairway buoy to port) and the local fleet (leaving the fair buoy to starboard) before retuning home. Both fleets share the same start, but neither had seen the others SI’s. 

This is BC (before computers). Never found out who was responsible but none of us realised it until 15  40ers arrived at the mark together. The language would have made a pig skinner blush.

 

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My interpretation would be that Port is entitled to room, but room is defined as “The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.” Rounding the wrong way is not complying with her obligations in a seamanlike way, so you don’t need to give her space to do that (other than avoiding collision). 

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This happens at least one a season on the lower Narragansett Bay between the Jamestown YC PHRF Fleet and Newport YC OD fleet.  Even when they coordinate course they still choose to have mark rounding from opposite directions.

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3 hours ago, Davidasailor26 said:

My interpretation would be that Port is entitled to room, but room is defined as “The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.” Rounding the wrong way is not complying with her obligations in a seamanlike way, so you don’t need to give her space to do that (other than avoiding collision). 

If you draw in a "corridor" from where P enters the zone to rounding the mark on the correct side and then sail the course, that's the room that P is entitled to. If she's sailing outside that corridor she has no mark-room protection and it's just port-starboard.

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Even though port is sailing the wrong side of the mark, she is not on a course for a Marks to Stbd, and both boats should be rounding the mark the same way, so R 18 does apply.

The heading is more than 90 degrees to the wind, so the two boats may be considered overlapped as R 18 applies. Port is inside boat and is entitled to mark room however mark room only allows her to sail close to the mark if her proper course is to sail close to the mark. As Port is going in the wrong direction, she is sailing outside of what her proper course would be - so she is subject to R 10 and must stay clear of S.

John

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3 hours ago, sailman said:

This happens at least one a season on the lower Narragansett Bay between the Jamestown YC PHRF Fleet and Newport YC OD fleet.  Even when they coordinate course they still choose to have mark rounding from opposite directions.

Then R 18 does not apply and the other rules of Part 2 do apply.

John

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1 hour ago, John Ball said:

Even though port is sailing the wrong side of the mark, she is not on a course for a Marks to Stbd, and both boats should be rounding the mark the same way, so R 18 does apply.

The heading is more than 90 degrees to the wind, so the two boats may be considered overlapped as R 18 applies. Port is inside boat and is entitled to mark room however mark room only allows her to sail close to the mark if her proper course is to sail close to the mark. As Port is going in the wrong direction, she is sailing outside of what her proper course would be - so she is subject to R 10 and must stay clear of S.

John

How do you figure port is the inside boat?

They are overlapped, but unless it's clear that one is going to arrive at the mark ahead of the other, I don't see any way that one has a prior claim to room over the other

FB- Doug

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The mark is on the stbd side of S. P is on the stbd side of S. If P were aiming to pass the mark to stbd correctly, she would be between S and the mark.

As they appeared to enter the zone overlapped, 18.2(b) applies. If P ends up astern of S, she is still entitled to mark room under 18.2(c) if the overlap is broken.

As drawn, Port loses the exoneration provided by mark room as she is sailing outside the room she is entitled by proper course.

John

 

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3 minutes ago, PaulK said:

What overlap? Doesn’t overlap extend abeam? 

No-

Boats are "Overlapped" by definition (and remember, the definitions of terms in the rule book are in fact rules themselves) when neither is clear ahead or clear astern. Two boats also have an overlap when a third boat boat overlaps them both.

The definition of "clear astern" is when a boat's hull and all equipment in normal sailing position (please) are behind a line drawn abeam from the aft-most point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal sailing position.

When boats are sailing toward each other, it's easily possible for this line to pass aft for each of them.

This is why I ask how to determine how the port tack boat has mark-room and rights to the inside lane. Unless it's clear that she reached the zone first, I don't see that and it's just a port-starboard incident.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

This is why I ask how to determine how the port tack boat has mark-room and rights to the inside lane. Unless it's clear that she reached the zone first, I don't see that and it's just a port-starboard incident.

- DSK

Hmmm.   Since we were approaching at 90 degrees to each other, it's hard to tell who reached the zone first.   I'm a J/24.  The other boat was a 34 footer.   If I had to guess, I'd suspect she got to within 3 of her boatlengths before I got to within 3 of my boatlengths, but that's just a guess.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Boats are "Overlapped" by definition (and remember, the definitions of terms in the rule book are in fact rules themselves) when neither is clear ahead or clear astern.

Actually it's just when neither is clear astern. 

But your point is correct, you need to look at the definitions in RRS. 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

No-

Boats are "Overlapped" by definition (and remember, the definitions of terms in the rule book are in fact rules themselves) when neither is clear ahead or clear astern. Two boats also have an overlap when a third boat boat overlaps them both.

The definition of "clear astern" is when a boat's hull and all equipment in normal sailing position (please) are behind a line drawn abeam from the aft-most point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal sailing position.

When boats are sailing toward each other, it's easily possible for this line to pass aft for each of them.

This is why I ask how to determine how the port tack boat has mark-room and rights to the inside lane. Unless it's clear that she reached the zone first, I don't see that and it's just a port-starboard incident.

- DSK

 Thanks for clarification of the overlap rule.  Agree that determining who was in the zone first would be an issue, but did P actually call for room?  Also in the rules: "Mark-Room: Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side."    Since P was leaving the mark on the wrong side, would S have had to give him any room at all?  It would seem not. 

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23 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Actually it's just when neither is clear astern. 

But your point is correct, you need to look at the definitions in RRS. 

Well, right. When one boat is clear astern, the other is clear ahead. If neither is clear astern, they are overlapped.

 

22 minutes ago, PaulK said:

 Thanks for clarification of the overlap rule.  Agree that determining who was in the zone first would be an issue, but did P actually call for room?  Also in the rules: "Mark-Room: Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side."    Since P was leaving the mark on the wrong side, would S have had to give him any room at all?  It would seem not. 

I don't think you can make the assumption that the other boat has no rights because they're going around the wrong way. The rules don't take away any rights due to foreknowledge of the outcome.

- DSK

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41 minutes ago, PaulK said:

 Thanks for clarification of the overlap rule.  Agree that determining who was in the zone first would be an issue,

Its not an issue. 

Who reached the zone first is only an issue when boats are NOT overlapped and the boat clear ahead reaches the zone first and gains mark-room.

When boats are overlapped it doesn't matter who reaches the zone first, mark-room depends only on who is inside and who is outside. 

41 minutes ago, PaulK said:

but did P actually call for room?

What P calls for or Haiti's completely irrelevant.  Hailing is not a condition for mark-room.

41 minutes ago, PaulK said:

 Also in the rules: "Mark-Room: Room for a boat to leave a mark on the required side."    Since P was leaving the mark on the wrong side, would S have had to give him any room at all?  It would seem not. 

Pretty right, that is supposing rule 18 isn't turned off altogether by USA Appeal US97

But Doug is right that P's entitlement to mark-room, or better S's obligation to give P mark-room, if it exists at all, doesn't go away.

You might have said it another way.

S did not have to do anything different from what she was doing to give P mark-room.

As I said in my earlier analysis 

23 hours ago, Brass said:
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).

 

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There's also Case 63: At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

So if S can sail close to the mark without interfering with P's ability to sail to it and round it on the correct side, S may do so without breaking rule 18. And once S has rounded the mark 18 is off between her and P (18.2(c)).

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11 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

There's also Case 63: At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

So if S can sail close to the mark without interfering with P's ability to sail to it and round it on the correct side, S may do so without breaking rule 18. And once S has rounded the mark 18 is off between her and P (18.2(c)).

Again, the problem here is that it's predicated on foreknowledge that P is wrong about which way to round the mark.

The rules don't work like that.

If P has the right to mark-room, and can take the inside lane, it's in the rules without depending on saying "But the Protest Committee will decide she's wrong because (whatever)." Otherwise she is not entitled to the inside lane and must keep clear while carrying out her rounding as best she may (which is what I think is the case).

FB- Doug

 

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Many years ago, well  before the advent of email comms, here in Melbourne Aus we frequently had the situation of two or even three yacht clubs programming races around the Gellibrand Pile Light and frequently in opposing directions. It was quite a large structure and created a considerable blind spot for the unsuspecting sailors. I recall much light hearted banter and the occasional  anguished outburst as surprised sailors encountered the situation. It was ended for all time when a ship hit the light pile in heavy fog and rather than carry out repairs, the local port authority simply set fire to the structure and replaced it with a single post.

1926947433_GellibrandLightburning.thumb.jpg.998f9783a8aeef002f9f44858700005f.jpg

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1 hour ago, TJSoCal said:

There's also Case 63: At a mark, when space is made available to a boat that is not entitled to it, she may, at her own risk, take advantage of the space.

So if S can sail close to the mark without interfering with P's ability to sail to it and round it on the correct side, S may do so without breaking rule 18. And once S has rounded the mark 18 is off between her and P (18.2(c)).

Case 63, the "room given, room taken" case, doesn't really help here.
 
Never rely on a headnote. 
 
The last paragraph, first line refers to "When a boat voluntarily or unintentionally makes space between herself and a mark available to another ".
 
The whole point of the OP scenario and Appeal 97 is that there's never any prospect of any boat getting into the space between the mark and the other boat. 
 
5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

This is why I ask how to determine how the port tack boat has mark-room and rights to the inside lane.

I think I laid this out pretty clearly in my first post.

On 9/19/2021 at 11:17 AM, Brass said:
[Either] ...you can apply the US Appeal here, so neither boat is the inside boat so neither boat is required to give mark-room and its straight up rule 10.
 
OR
 
Suppose the angle between the boats' courses was a little more acute, that is, both sailing a little deeper and converging about at the mark.
 
In that case, they are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, and now, P is clearly inside S, S is required to give P mark-room (rule 18.2(b)).
 
The each go their separate sides of the mark and meet up, P/S downwind of the mark.  So P does not keep clear of S and breaks rule 10, regardless of any mark-room to which she was entitled.
 
The mark-room P was entitled to was room to sail to the mark, then room to round or pass it as required to sail the course (that is, leaving it on the required side).
  • At no time does S fail to give P this mark-room.  S does not break rule 18.2(b).
  • P is not sailing within this mark-room to which she is entitled, so P is not exonerated for breaking rule 10 by rule 43.1(b).

 

2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't think you can make the assumption that the other boat has no rights because they're going around the wrong way. The rules don't take away any rights due to foreknowledge of the outcome.

Maybe this will help.

There is a difference between an entitlement to mark-room (arising from rule 18) and the content or extent of that mark-room (defined by Definitions mark-room).

As TJSocal described the mark-room to which a boat is entitled is fairly precise and can be diagrammed.

In the second scenario I described above where rule 18 did apply, P was entitled to mark-room, but

  • S never sails anywhere near the mark-room to which P is entitled so cannot fail to give her mark-room,  and 
  • From just after she reaches the zone, P never sails within the mark-room to which she is entitled so is not entitled to exoneration if she breaks a rule of Part 2, like failing to keep clear os S.
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5 hours ago, Brass said:

From just after she reaches the zone, P never sails within the mark-room to which she is entitled so is not entitled to exoneration if she breaks a rule of Part 2, like failing to keep clear os S.

+1

Just because P doesn’t know the course she is not entitled to sail wherever she pleases. If a boat hallucinates that there are 5 extra marks on a course she is not entitled to room around all the imaginary points. 

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10 minutes ago, Davidasailor26 said:

Just because P doesn’t know the course she is not entitled to sail wherever she pleases. If a boat hallucinates that there are 5 extra marks on a course she is not entitled to room around all the imaginary points. 

 

Any boat pretty much is entitled to sail wherever she pleases, as long as she doesn't break any rules while doing so.

P would be perfectly OK where she ends up downwind of the mark, if it wasn't for S being there with right-of-way.

And P doesn't break rule 28 by sailing the wrong side of the mark until she finishes.

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6 minutes ago, Brass said:

 

Any boat pretty much is entitled to sail wherever she pleases, as long as she doesn't break any rules while doing so.

P would be perfectly OK where she ends up downwind of the mark, if it wasn't for S being there with right-of-way.

And P doesn't break rule 28 by sailing the wrong side of the mark until she finishes.

Yes, good clarifications. 

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10 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Again, the problem here is that it's predicated on foreknowledge that P is wrong about which way to round the mark.

The rules don't work like that.

If P has the right to mark-room, and can take the inside lane, it's in the rules without depending on saying "But the Protest Committee will decide she's wrong because (whatever)." Otherwise she is not entitled to the inside lane and must keep clear while carrying out her rounding as best she may (which is what I think is the case).

FB- Doug

 

What if P is not entitled to mark room?  Rule 18.1 b specifies that Rule 18 does not apply to boats on opposite take if the proper course for one of them (not both) is to tack.  In order to finish the race as quickly as possible in the absence of other boats, (my rough definition of Proper Course), P will have to leave the mark to starboard.  In order to do that once she is to leeward of the mark she will have to tack.  Rule 18 therefore does not apply (even if P might think it does) and must keep clear of S .

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On 9/18/2021 at 7:50 PM, phrfsux said:

Last I saw, the skipper of P was looking for the RC chair to give him shit about putting starboard roundings in the SI.

Don't sail off soundings then. This weekend only 1 mark of the course across both days was rounded to port.

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Whew!  A thread with 36 posts, and many conflicting opinions, about what should be a rather simple racing situation.

Remember that when racing things can happen fast and the involved skippers must have near instant decision making. This stuff shouldn't be that hard.

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51 minutes ago, DougH said:

Whew!  A thread with 36 posts, and many conflicting opinions, about what should be a rather simple racing situation.

Remember that when racing things can happen fast and the involved skippers must have near instant decision making. This stuff shouldn't be that hard.

It isn't hard and the OP pretty much nailed it.

I don't see any conflicting opinions I think every poster here has agreed that P needed to keep clear.

The biggest take away was that S sorted this out early by letting P know that the were going the wrong way.

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By letting the incorrect boat know they are going the wrong way, isn't that illegal outside assistance?

The real fun is when the boat rounding incorrectly is on starboard tack and the boat rounding the buoy  correctly is on port tack and there is a collision. 

Colregs say the boat on port tack is in the wrong.

Race rules say the boat on starboard tack is in the wrong.

Though of course both are in the wrong for not avoiding a collision.

 

Over the years I've seen all sorts of strange cock ups both on the water, and in the start box.

We don't just sail windward and leeward, there isn't the room. So M course's are common ( and then back through the start line), it's not been unknown for a race officer to get the rounding wrong at one of the peak of the M buoys.

Some boats choose to short circuit the course missing the peak, some go to the buoy and do a 360 degree + rounding, and some try the intended wrongly flagged rounding..

 

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On 9/18/2021 at 8:14 PM, FixinGit said:

As the diagram shows, i reckon:

S is Standon for Tack and Rounding as directed by SI. So even if S had yeilded for safety reasons, then got back oncourse and hoisted the protest rag, S is still winner and P as DougH says is a DNF.

P can go ranting to RC but if its in the SI Thems the rules. 
Not a bad idea to occasionally change course and roundings etc up, keep people on their toes and more interesting, especially if its a downwind rounding with Spinnakers.
 

only if you have a skipper's meeting and everyone is informed...   and was this a change in the normal SI's ?  was the SI change posted ?

i find that starboard roundings at the windward mark to be dangerous as you could have a possible collision at the mark..

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Q said:

The real fun is when the boat rounding incorrectly is on starboard tack and the boat rounding the buoy  correctly is on port tack and there is a collision. 

Colregs say the boat on port tack is in the wrong.

Race rules say the boat on starboard tack is in the wrong.

Though of course both are in the wrong for not avoiding a collision.

COLREGS are replaced by RRS between boats racing, so there's no COLREGS component to this situation. Who was wrong would depend entirely on RRS right-of-way and room rules.

 

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On 9/18/2021 at 7:50 PM, phrfsux said:

This really happened in today's race.  The SI (for reasons that made sense to nobody but the RC) specified a starboard rounding.  WTF?  Unfortunately, one boat didn't read the SI carefully enough and thought they were doing a port rounding.  As far as I can tell, rule 18 applies; both boats are required to leave the mark on the same side (regardless of the fact that one of them doesn't know that) and they're both in the zone.  None of the exceptions in 18.1(a)-(d) apply.  They're clearly overlapped, so 18.2 applies, but beats me which boat is inside or outside.  The next mark was upwind, so proper course to the next mark for S would be to harden up to close hauled on starboard, not that I think that matters to the rule.

Any idea what rules actually apply here?  In reality, S hailed to P that this was a starboard rounding and P headed up to round the proper way, several boat-lengths behind P, and got to chat about it back at the bar.  I was the skipper of S.  Last I saw, the skipper of P was looking for the RC chair to give him shit about putting starboard roundings in the SI.

 

port-starboard-rounding.graffle.thumb.jpg.9278c001c6c32b0492fff1c0dab549fd.jpg

 

 

 

 

Please tell me it was Ernie on Eagle rounding the wrong way?

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11 hours ago, Brass said:

And P doesn't break rule 28 by sailing the wrong side of the mark until she finishes.

Slight drift - if S observes P sailing to the incorrect side and wants to protest P for breaking rule 28.1, when could/should/must she inform the protestee?

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7 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Slight drift - if S observes P sailing to the incorrect side and wants to protest P for breaking rule 28.1, when could/should/must she inform the protestee?

Rule 61.1 Informing the Protestee
(a) The protesting boat shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest will concern an incident in the racing area, she shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag until she is no longer racing. However,
...

(3) if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she need not hail or display a red flag but she shall inform the other boat either before or at the first reasonable opportunity after the other boat finishes;

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29 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Slight drift - if S observes P sailing to the incorrect side and wants to protest P for breaking rule 28.1, when could/should/must she inform the protestee?

20 minutes ago, Brass said:

Rule 61.1 Informing the Protestee
(a) The protesting boat shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest will concern an incident in the racing area, she shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag until she is no longer racing. However,
...

(3) if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she need not hail or display a red flag but she shall inform the other boat either before or at the first reasonable opportunity after the other boat finishes;

Under the new rules if the RC was notified the boat did not sail the course, they can score the boat as NSC. A new scoring Code under A.10 and no hearing needed.

Then the boat can go whining to the RC.

 

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2 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

Under the new rules if the RC was notified the boat did not sail the course, they can score the boat as NSC. A new scoring Code under A.10 and no hearing needed.

Then the boat can go whining to the RC.

The race committee would be very unwise to score a boat NSC based on a report of another boat, unless there was strong corroborating evidence, such as the boat finishing with an elapsed time that could not possibly have been achieved by her.

And if a boat protests another boat for breaking rule 28, the protest committee has to hear and decide the protetst no matter what the race committee might do.

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45 minutes ago, Brass said:

Rule 61.1 Informing the Protestee
(a) The protesting boat shall inform the other boat at the first reasonable opportunity. When her protest will concern an incident in the racing area, she shall hail ‘Protest’ and conspicuously display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity for each. She shall display the flag until she is no longer racing. However,
...

(3) if the incident was an error by the other boat in sailing the course, she need not hail or display a red flag but she shall inform the other boat either before or at the first reasonable opportunity after the other boat finishes;

Suppose the boat hails protest and displays a flag shortly after the incorrect mark rounding. Is that proper, given that the breach doesn't occur until the other boat finishes?

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7 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

Suppose the boat hails protest and displays a flag shortly after the incorrect mark rounding. Is that proper, given that the breach doesn't occur until the other boat finishes?

Yes.

That's "before" the other boat finishes.

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I bit of a high jack. But this reminds me of the Stamford-Denmark Day Race.  The RC had half the fleet racing towards the East of the sound with rest to the west.  They had all the divisions round the same mark before heading to the finish.  And that mark rounding got the Stamford Yacht Club the Moose Head award! 

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13 hours ago, PaulK said:

What if P is not entitled to mark room?  Rule 18.1 b specifies that Rule 18 does not apply to boats on opposite take if the proper course for one of them (not both) is to tack.  In order to finish the race as quickly as possible in the absence of other boats, (my rough definition of Proper Course), P will have to leave the mark to starboard.  In order to do that once she is to leeward of the mark she will have to tack.  Rule 18 therefore does not apply (even if P might think it does) and must keep clear of S .

For starters in OP Scenario P is not entitled to mark-room (Appeal 97).  Rule 18 applies but does not effectively allocate obligation or entitlement because the inside/outside relationship cannot be identified.

But let's suppose the second scenario where boats are on closer courses (less than 90 degrees between them) and P is identifiable as the inside boat, and S is required, by rule 18.2(b) to give her mark-room.  So P is entitled to mark-room.

You are nearly onto a good get but not quite.

The reason rule 18 applies is that, without a doubt, boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone.  At that point the boats are on opposite tacks but neither one's proper course at the mark at that time is to tack.  So rule 18.2(b) applies.

Under rule 18.2(b) a boat required to give mark-room when the first of the boats reaches the zone shall thereafter give that mark-room, so, as long as there is a boat required to give mark-room, this, stops rule 18.1(b) from switching the rule off.

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4 hours ago, Brass said:

The race committee would be very unwise to score a boat NSC based on a report of another boat, unless there was strong corroborating evidence, such as the boat finishing with an elapsed time that could not possibly have been achieved by her.

And if a boat protests another boat for breaking rule 28, the protest committee has to hear and decide the protetst no matter what the race committee might do.

IF Your RC is a pacifist RC, maybe.

If one boat makes such a serious accusation, when the RC knows the difference in the course and SI, the RC must take action. The Rules allow for this action to avoid the convening or a PC and hearing. Thus not putting a bearing on the local community and keeping the community from being fractured.

I hope everyone understands the rules have been changed to help the community.

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On 9/19/2021 at 9:17 PM, Steam Flyer said:

Again, the problem here is that it's predicated on foreknowledge that P is wrong about which way to round the mark.

The rules don't work like that.

If P has the right to mark-room, and can take the inside lane, it's in the rules without depending on saying "But the Protest Committee will decide she's wrong because (whatever)." Otherwise she is not entitled to the inside lane and must keep clear while carrying out her rounding as best she may (which is what I think is the case).

FB- Doug

 

so since when does rule 18 apply to boats on opposite tacks?   

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11 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

COLREGS are replaced by RRS between boats racing, so there's no COLREGS component to this situation. Who was wrong would depend entirely on RRS right-of-way and room rules.

 

colregs  always apply, except to the results of the race.

Unless you are sailing on enclosed waters where other boats are banned, you have to assume others are sailing to colregs only, if the other boat just happens to be a non competitor just tacking by the buoy or as previously mentioned a different race using same mark in the opposite direction. Then any collision would come under colregs.. you just can't ignore colregs.

Even if you are in a race together, port and starboard still applies even when one of you is sailing the wrong course.. The protest would apply to port and starboard for the accident which is RRS and colregs. To rounding the mark incorrectly for the race results.

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15 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

 

i find that starboard roundings at the windward mark to be dangerous as you could have a possible collision at the mark..

 

 

Why are starboard windward roundings more dangerous than port roundings?

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1 hour ago, The Q said:

colregs  always apply, except to the results of the race.

Bullshit.  They do not apply between two boats in the same RRS event.

EDIT:  That line is always pushed by someone too fucking lazy to understand RRS.   Or it's too hard for them.

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15 minutes ago, mccroc said:

Why are starboard windward roundings more dangerous than port roundings?

Because the starboard boat has to tack in the zone to round the mark, losing it's rights in the process.

Boats leaving the mark, unless they gybe immediately, are on port tack running into the starboard tackers approaching the mark

BANG!.

 

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42 minutes ago, mccroc said:
15 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

i find that starboard roundings at the windward mark to be dangerous as you could have a possible collision at the mark..

Why are starboard windward roundings more dangerous than port roundings?

They're not.

I would suggest that they are less dangerous because the incentive for a port tack boat to push the point to get into the starboard tack parade is removed.

 Paul Elvstrom has always been a strong opponent of port rounding courses (Elvstrom Explains,Explanatory (Red) Section Rule 89.2)

The disadvantage of port rounding is that a boat approaching on port tack, even though she may really be leading ... may not be able to round the mark and can drop many places. Also the tendency is to use only the starboard side of the course.

With starboard rounding, a boat can always get round the mark by standing on a few lengths, but there are usually more protest situations.
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1 minute ago, Brass said:

but there are usually more protest situations

There you have it.   That make it more dangerous.

Not everyone can sail as well as he could.

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On 9/19/2021 at 10:47 AM, Brass said:

And give P a kick in the nuts for arguing with the RO.  The course is the course written in the SI.

 

Then kick the RO in nutz for being a fucking idiot for making it a Starboard rounding. There's a reason why we do Port roundings. It's because of the Port/Starboard Rule. It's completely fucked going the other way. One of our guest RO's decided to make an entire dinghy race course Starboard roundings to make it more challenging. There were a shite load of collisions not because of people going the wrong way. It's because the right way was the wrong way. Somebody t-boned my Laser, because of the mess at the windward mark. He bought me a beer. I felt like glassing the RO.

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17 hours ago, The Q said:

By letting the incorrect boat know they are going the wrong way, isn't that illegal outside assistance?

The real fun is when the boat rounding incorrectly is on starboard tack and the boat rounding the buoy  correctly is on port tack and there is a collision. 

Colregs say the boat on port tack is in the wrong.

Race rules say the boat on starboard tack is in the wrong.

Though of course both are in the wrong for not avoiding a collision.

 

Over the years I've seen all sorts of strange cock ups both on the water, and in the start box.

We don't just sail windward and leeward, there isn't the room. So M course's are common ( and then back through the start line), it's not been unknown for a race officer to get the rounding wrong at one of the peak of the M buoys.

Some boats choose to short circuit the course missing the peak, some go to the buoy and do a 360 degree + rounding, and some try the intended wrongly flagged rounding..

 

No, unsolicited information from another boat is quite permissible. 

If both boats are racing then colregs don't apply.

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8 hours ago, Brass said:
8 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

so since when does rule 18 apply to boats on opposite tacks?   

At every leeward mark

IIRC this change of applying "buoy room" (as it was called back then) to boats on opposite tacks when going downwind took place in the 2008 ~ 2012 revision.

I was wrong in predicting that this would cause the collapse of civilization

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

IIRC this change of applying "buoy room" (as it was called back then) to boats on opposite tacks when going downwind took place in the 2008 ~ 2012 revision.

I was wrong in predicting that this would cause the collapse of civilization

Rule 18 concerning giving room at marks (and previously obstructions) was introduced in the 1995 rewrite of the rules, and applied to boats on opposite tacks except on a beat to windward or when the proper course of one of them was to tack.

Before 1995, rule 18 was about Entries, but rule 42 about room at marks and obstructions had the same conditions as rule 18 in the 1995 rules.

The term mark-room was introduced in the 2009 rewrite, but it was just defining the room boats were required to give around marks.

I have a hazy recolletion of the term 'buoy room' in some old rules book, and I've briefly checked the 1961 rules, and the old NAYRU rujles and I can't find it now,

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5 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

Just curious, where does rule 18 say that?

Take a look at rule 18.1 and you tell me how any of those exceptions can apply at a leeward mark.

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13 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

IF Your RC is a pacifist RC, maybe.

If one boat makes such a serious accusation, when the RC knows the difference in the course and SI, the RC must take action. The Rules allow for this action to avoid the convening or a PC and hearing. Thus not putting a bearing on the local community and keeping the community from being fractured.

I hope everyone understands the rules have been changed to help the community.

If a boat wants to make a "serious accusation" why not put it on a protest form?

Note that in the other instances (did not start & did not finish) where the RC is permitted to disqualify without a hearing, the RC is normally in a position to personally observe the breach. This may or may not be true of a mark rounding error which may take place out of sight of the  RC. 

If the RC is going to disqualify a boat without a hearing, seems like they would want more than just the accusation of another competitor. Personally if I hadn't observed the error I'd want, at a minimum, reports from several sources and preferably from a disinterested party like a spectator or a mark set boat. Otherwise I think I'd suggest that the accusing boat take it to the room and let the PC sort it out.

As for "avoid the convening of a PC and hearing", why is that a good thing?

 

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2 hours ago, Brass said:

I have a hazy recollection of the term 'buoy room' in some old rules book, and I've briefly checked the 1961 rules, and the old NAYRU rules and I can't find it now,

I've got some books going back as far as 1912 and they all talk about room at marks and obstructions. I think "buoy room" might just be sailor slang.

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2 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

This may or may not be true of a mark rounding error which may take place out of sight of the  RC.

If a fellow competitor wants it so badly that he is willing to flagrantly cheat, in full view of another competitor(me), then I will leave it alone. He has to live with himself and I just don't care that much.

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1 minute ago, DougH said:

If a fellow competitor wants it so badly that he is willing to flagrantly cheat, in full view of another competitor(me), then I will leave it alone. He has to live with himself and I just don't care that much.

I expect most cases of skipping a mark or rounding the wrong way are errors, not cheating. See also: Hanlon's Razor

Touching a mark and failing to do a turn, on the other hand...

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24 minutes ago, TJSoCal said:

I expect most cases of skipping a mark or rounding the wrong way are errors, not cheating.

I should have qualified that in this case I would have shouted out the error to the other boat and also hoisted a flag and also reported it to the RC. But if the other boat wants to deny because its a "he said vs he said" and the RC had no other way to check, then I leave it alone.

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Further stating the obvious, if after shouting out the error to the other boat he then corrects it by "unwinding the string" and rounding properly, my protest flag immediately comes down and the RC need hear nothing.

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16 hours ago, Brass said:

They're not.

I would suggest that they are less dangerous because the incentive for a port tack boat to push the point to get into the starboard tack parade is removed.

 Paul Elvstrom has always been a strong opponent of port rounding courses (Elvstrom Explains,Explanatory (Red) Section Rule 89.2)

The disadvantage of port rounding is that a boat approaching on port tack, even though she may really be leading ... may not be able to round the mark and can drop many places. Also the tendency is to use only the starboard side of the course.

With starboard rounding, a boat can always get round the mark by standing on a few lengths, but there are usually more protest situations.

Thanks - in Sydney harbour, all laid marks (by Australian Sailing) MUST be rounded to starboard, so the majority of our courses are starboard roundings, and it means of course that the yacht coming in on starboard has an advantage.

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8 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

If a boat wants to make a "serious accusation" why not put it on a protest form?

Note that in the other instances (did not start & did not finish) where the RC is permitted to disqualify without a hearing, the RC is normally in a position to personally observe the breach. This may or may not be true of a mark rounding error which may take place out of sight of the  RC. 

If the RC is going to disqualify a boat without a hearing, seems like they would want more than just the accusation of another competitor. Personally if I hadn't observed the error I'd want, at a minimum, reports from several sources and preferably from a disinterested party like a spectator or a mark set boat. Otherwise I think I'd suggest that the accusing boat take it to the room and let the PC sort it out.

As for "avoid the convening of a PC and hearing", why is that a good thing?

 

This actually happened in an event several years back. A mark that is usually rounded to Port when the start is off the harbor was now to be taken to Stbd because the start was further down the coast between the 2 local harbors.
The offending boat realized the rounded wrong but did not unwind the string properly as Doug states below. Realizing their mistake they retired (RET). The event was witnessed by the whole A fleet and the leaders of the B fleet as it was light air and it was tight.

I know the story in this thread does not say anything about other boats but I have a hard time thinking there were only the 2 boats around.

Yes the RC would need more than one boat to state the actions of the offending boat. But the RC only needs one boat to call out to the RC that the course was not sailed properly and then they may approach the offending skipper. You do not always need to convene a PC and drag a bunch of people in.  Maybe in big areas you have lots of people available for PC work. Lots of areas do not.

7 hours ago, DougH said:

Further stating the obvious, if after shouting out the error to the other boat he then corrects it by "unwinding the string" and rounding properly, my protest flag immediately comes down and the RC need hear nothing.

 

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On 9/19/2021 at 11:14 AM, FixinGit said:

Not a bad idea to occasionally change course and roundings etc up, keep people on their toes and more interesting, especially if its a downwind rounding with Spinnakers.

 

16 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

an entire dinghy race course Starboard roundings to make it more challenging.

 

11 hours ago, Mark Set said:

"RC can specify starboard mark roundings every once in a while, as a treat." - 32.3

These are really bad arguments for doing unusual things to courses.  It's supposed to be a race, not a games show.

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17 hours ago, Brass said:

I would suggest that [starboard roundings] are less dangerous [than port roundings because the incentive for a port tack boat to push the point to get into the starboard tack parade is removed.

 

17 hours ago, random. said:

Because the starboard boat has to tack in the zone to round the mark, losing it's rights in the process.

Boats leaving the mark, unless they gybe immediately, are on port tack running into the starboard tackers approaching the mark

But this looks like not a bad answer to my post.

The Starboard tack parade to get to windward of a port rounding mark problem is replaced by, similarly with starboard tackers, now below the mark.

I don't think its quite of the same magnitude, down below the mark for a port rounding, the starboard tackers will probably be fewer, because there will be port tack boats out on the left, and the starboard tackers will be more dispersed, not all marching in on the same layline.

I don't think it's significantly more dangerous.   I certainly don't see why anyone should suddenly start sailing W/L courses with starboard roundings, when we've all been using port roundings for years, but the race committee might have good reasons to specify a starboard rounding (that don't include "variety").

You just have to pay attention and obey the rules.

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2 hours ago, Brass said:

You just have to pay attention and obey the rules.

Uh huh ... that is the answer to everything,

It's a shame that most sailors have a tenuous grasp of the RRS, particularly ocean racers, most of them have no fucking idea.

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On 9/21/2021 at 7:52 PM, mccroc said:

Thanks - in Sydney harbour, all laid marks (by Australian Sailing) MUST be rounded to starboard, so the majority of our courses are starboard roundings, and it means of course that the yacht coming in on starboard has an advantage.

yeah but in Australia starboard is our port and port is starboard of course

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1 minute ago, Mark Set said:
On 9/21/2021 at 8:52 PM, mccroc said:

Thanks - in Sydney harbour, all laid marks (by Australian Sailing) MUST be rounded to starboard, so the majority of our courses are starboard roundings, and it means of course that the yacht coming in on starboard has an advantage.

yeah but in Australia starboard is our port and port is starboard of course

I thought it was just up and down that were reversed?

FB- Doug

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I just now checked myself against this: http://game.finckh.net/indexe.htm

"The situations by the number", level=Difficult

I raced a *lot* decades ago in very competitive Lightning and C-scow fleets. After testing myself as per the above I have concluded that I should never race again.

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