Jump to content

It Was All BS, Trump Deserves 20 Years for This Fraud, No One Has the Balls to Charge Him.


Recommended Posts

Lindsey Graham and Mike Lee personally vetted Trump’s fraud claims, new book says. They were unpersuaded.

Sen. Lindsey O. Graham agreed to hear Rudolph W. Giuliani out.

In a Jan. 2 meeting arranged by Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, and held in his West Wing office, the South Carolina Republican met with Giuliani and his legal team to learn about findings they said could hand Trump a second term.

 

Giuliani, Trump’s personal attorney at the time, put forward a computer whiz who presented a mathematical formula suggesting Biden’s support in certain states was unrealistic. Graham, a lawyer and chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, found the reasoning too abstract. He wanted hard evidence. “Give me some names,” Graham said at the Saturday meeting. “You need to put it in writing. You need to show me the evidence.”

Giuliani promised details by Monday — proof that scores of ballots had been cast in the names of dead people and people under 18, among other irregularities.

This scene is recounted in a new book by Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward and national political reporter Robert Costa. The book, “Peril,” describes parallel efforts by the South Carolina Republican and his conservative colleague from Utah, Sen. Mike Lee, to personally investigate the president’s claims of voter fraud as the lawmakers prepared to certify Joe Biden’s victory on Jan. 6.

 

Graham and Lee, both of whom ultimately voted to certify the results, took the claims of election fraud seriously enough to get briefed on the details, involve their senior staff and call state officials throughout the country. But privately, Graham gave the arguments a withering assessment, according to the book, saying they were suitable for “third grade.”

The episode illustrates how strenuously the president’s legal team sought to nullify the results of the election; how flimsy even their more serious claims were; and what little stock the president’s own allies placed in his objections, even as they stood steadfastly with their standard-bearer.

Giuliani’s promised proof arrived on Jan. 4 in the form of several memos he sent to Graham, one titled “Voting Irregularities, Impossibilities, and Illegalities in the 2020 General Election.”

Graham had already proved himself willing to act on assertions of election irregularities, calling Georgia’s secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, in November to see if he could toss mail ballots in counties found to have high rates of nonmatching signatures, Raffensperger later said. Graham maintained he was only inquiring about the state’s signature-matching requirements.

The memos from Giuliani included sweeping claims lacking references or evidence. One said Pennsylvania had processed 682,777 mail-in ballots without proper observation — an assertion underlying a suit tossed out by a federal judge two months earlier. “If you deduct just this number, President Trump wins the state by hundreds of thousands,” the memo argued. Another claimed hundreds of dead people had voted in Georgia, based on an extensive analysis of “mail-in and absentee ballot voter names and obituaries.”

Graham dispatched his driver to deliver the documents to his top lawyer on the Judiciary Committee. The lawyer, Lee Holmes, was unimpressed, according to the account in “Peril.”

It was impossible for him to tell precisely what kind of records had been used to conduct the analysis, which proved nothing conclusively, in his view. Of the more sensational claims, such as ballots from the deceased, Holmes thought it was much more likely, based on Giuliani’s own evidence, that some people had voted and then died, according to the book. He was equally unconvinced by theories about people voting twice, improper absentee ballot applications and fraudulent ballots cast from vacant or nonexistent addresses. “Holmes could find no public records that would even allow someone to reach these conclusions,” according to the account in “Peril.”

Where he could find relevant records, they contradicted Giuliani’s conclusions. Claims of nearly 12,000 so-called “overvotes” in Arizona — when someone picks more than the maximum number of selections allowed — masked the fact that only 180 applied in the presidential contest, not nearly enough to close Biden’s margin of victory in the state.

The argument that “Georgia’s 2020 election is in doubt and should be nullified,” was laid out in an “Executive summary” of “Independent analysis conducted by expert CPAs and Ivy League statisticians,” according to the documents provided by Giuliani. The experts were unnamed, but their alleged probe — correlating data for 7.6 million registered voters with postal records — struck Holmes as unfeasible or, at best, inconclusive, because it would involve matching millions of registered voters with U.S. Postal Service data. Similar analysis failed to convince a District Court judge in Nevada, who wrote in a December judgment dismissing a suit from the Trump campaign that there was insufficient information about how the data was obtained and used and “what the rate of false positives would be.”

Graham’s attorney shared those concerns.

“Holmes found the sloppiness, the overbearing tone of certainty, and the inconsistencies disqualifying,” the authors write. The memos, he determined, “added up to nothing.”

But it wasn’t until after a pro-Trump mob ransacked the Capitol that Graham, speaking on the Senate floor, said, “Count me out. Enough is enough. I’ve tried to be helpful.”

He has since tacked back, visiting Trump at Mar-a-Lago, speaking to him regularly and saying the GOP “can’t grow” without the former president. Still, he has continued to deliver criticism directly to Trump, according to the book. In a phone call this summer, he bemoaned Trump’s volatility and focus on voter fraud, telling the former president, “You f---ed your presidency up.” Trump abruptly hung up on him. A spokesman for Graham declined to comment.

The same day Graham met with Giuliani in the West Wing, Lee received a two-page memo from the White House marked “PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL.” It included a stunning claim — that Vice President Pence could hand the election to Trump because seven states had submitted dueling slates of electors to Congress, split between the incumbent and Joe Biden. Pence could simply set those states aside on Jan. 6 and count only electors from the remaining states, it claimed. “Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.”

That outcome was envisioned by John Eastman, the conservative legal scholar and author of the memo, titled, “January 6 scenario,” which was obtained for “Peril” and reviewed by The Washington Post.

Lee knew dueling electors were merely Trump loyalists putting themselves forward in certain states, in a move the authors describe as “a social media campaign — an amateur push with no legal standing.” Electors are bound by the popular vote in each state; because they sum to 538, an absolute majority of 270 is needed to clinch the presidency.

The authors suggest the senator, a former law clerk for Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, was surprised this theory had been circulated by Eastman, a professor at the Chapman University School of Law and former law clerk to Justice Clarence Thomas. Document in hand, and bewildered that theories about dueling electors were still coming from Trump’s legal team, Lee made “phone call after phone call” to officials in some of the relevant states, such as Georgia, Pennsylvania and Arizona, he told constituents in a Jan. 27 online town hall, appearing to refer to the Eastman memo without naming its author. A spokesman for Lee did not respond to a request for comment.

No one seemed poised to certify a new slate of electors. “At that point, I believed that we had reached the end of the process, as indeed we had,” Lee said during the town hall.

The senator also explained his interpretation of the limited role the Constitution gave to Congress and the vice president in counting electoral votes — an interpretation in conflict with the one outlined by Eastman, who argued Pence could be the “ultimate arbiter” and either name Trump the president-elect or send the matter to the House.

Eastman even anticipated what “Peril” describes as “certain outrage and worry of a coup.” In the memo, however, he dismissed these concerns as, “Howls, of course, from the Democrats …”

Four days after his memo reached Lee, the law professor addressed Trump supportersoutside the White House on Jan. 6. A week after that, Chapman University announced his immediate retirement from the Orange, Calif., school.

In an email to The Post, Eastman said his memo merely “explored all options that had been proposed.” Ultimately, his advice to Pence was not to act on the basis of the dueling electors, he added, because “at that point, no legislature had certified an alternative slate of electors.” Rather, he counseled the vice president to delay certification, Eastman said, by pointing to objections leveled by state legislators — a move Pence explored, according to “Peril,” but did not make.

Eastman’s remarks on Jan. 6, he said, were unplanned and designed to “fill a gap in the roster of speakers when the president’s arrival was delayed.”

Lee, for his part, said in a Fox News interview a month after the Jan. 6 riot that Trump deserved a “mulligan” for the speech he delivered encouraging his supporters to march on the Capitol, using a golf term for giving someone another try.

Claire McMullen contributed to this report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/20/peril-woodward-costa-graham-lee-fraud/

Link to post
Share on other sites

Trump is the object of all these machinations, but the real ones responsible are the members of the GOP who put party before country.

Until and unless we address their attempts to subvert democracy in our country, we invite their repeat efforts, informed by their mistakes and emboldened by the lack of blowback.

The GOP is a national security threat because it harbors and empowers members who actively pursued methods of staging a coup and have since shown little remorse.

Those Republicans retiring from active politics are moderates and their departure merely leaves space for more extremists to fill their ranks.

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

The GOP is a national security threat because it harbors and empowers members who actively pursued methods of staging a coup and have since shown little remorse

And the GOP leadership in every state is going along with the use of death threats against opponents - even in their own party. 

Until they all actively denounce and oppose that, they have no place in American politics. 

And the mods here have the audacity to object to calling them "R-e-e-o-c-h-istas". 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty clear that the GOP is out of new ideas, all they want now is to hold onto power from this point forward. The Supreme Court is stacked, eighteen states have enacted restrictive voting laws, ensuring their candidates will have a path forward. Governors like Abbott and DeSantis, are showing the country a particular brand of leadership that has no basis in common sense.  Cheating and power are the new way for the GOP, the only way to impact that is to throw Trump in jail, and everyone is afraid to do that.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

And the mods here have the audacity to object to calling them "R-e-e-o-c-h-istas". 

No one raised serious objections til you said it the 10,000th time. Ollie. That's on you. Time to move on.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

The Drumph knows he lost. 

He is trying to take down the republic to undo that. 

I'm not sure he thinks big enough to do that. I'm pretty sure he's just grifting the MAGA crowd.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

The Drumph knows he lost. 

He is trying to take down the republic to undo that. 

Pocketing some coin along the way, from the hopelessly gullible, is a nice touch.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nice! said:

I'm not sure he thinks big enough to do that. I'm pretty sure he's just grifting the MAGA crowd.

He fell in love with the adulation even while having no clue as to what the job was.  He doesn't want to be president, he wants to be the adored "Fearless Leader".  Even if, or especially if, the adoration was mandatory.  

He also fell in love with the ability to get money for nothing.  His only regret is not being able to cash in on the "chicks for free" part.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Did ya ever stop to think...... I know, I know, but did you ever stop to think that while there were some indications of possible fraud, or even a preponderance of evidence to suggest extensive fraud, or indeed some instances of actual fraud, that folks like Graham and Lee and whoever else you wish to cite or mention, that there was not controvertible proof (how do you prove fraud unless you catch people red handed?) that Graham, Lee, whoever, felt that for the good of the nation to not pursue the theory that the election may have been stolen or swayed or even remotely tainted?
As Jerry Ford once said, "The long national nightmare is over".

As for BL's "the R's are out of ideas", I have long said that it isn't so much they are out of ideas, they just really suck at expressing why our capitalist system has great potential to change the lives of those less fortunate.  I find fault with the R's ability to put together programs that reward corporations for providing a pathway and training so those left behind can realize The American Dream.
The R's, for as long as I can remember, aside from Gingrich's Contract With America, have always played the part of "the opposition party" far better than the party of real leadership. Case in point, remember back to Bob Dole running against Bill Clinton, "Why not Dole, why not now!"..... Dole was ahead and for a time looked headed to unseating Clinton. Problem was Dole and the Republican brain trust could not make the transition from opposition party to leadership party.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, quod umbra said:

Did ya ever stop to think...... I know, I know, but did you ever stop to think that while there were some indications of possible fraud, or even a preponderance of evidence to suggest extensive fraud, or indeed some instances of actual fraud, that folks like Graham and Lee and whoever else you wish to cite or mention, that there was not controvertible proof (how do you prove fraud unless you catch people red handed?) that Graham, Lee, whoever, felt that for the good of the nation to not pursue the theory that the election may have been stolen or swayed or even remotely tainted?
As Jerry Ford once said, "The long national nightmare is over".

As for BL's "the R's are out of ideas", I have long said that it isn't so much they are out of ideas, they just really suck at expressing why our capitalist system has great potential to change the lives of those less fortunate.  I find fault with the R's ability to put together programs that reward corporations for providing a pathway and training so those left behind can realize The American Dream.
The R's, for as long as I can remember, aside from Gingrich's Contract With America, have always played the part of "the opposition party" far better than the party of real leadership. Case in point, remember back to Bob Dole running against Bill Clinton, "Why not Dole, why not now!"..... Dole was ahead and for a time looked headed to unseating Clinton. Problem was Dole and the Republican brain trust could not make the transition from opposition party to leadership party.

Maybe the worms have started on the other half of your brain.  Seems time to ask for a CAT scan.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Did ya ever stop to think...... I know, I know, but did you ever stop to think that while there were some indications of possible fraud, or even a preponderance of evidence to suggest extensive fraud, or indeed some instances of actual fraud, that folks like Graham and Lee and whoever else you wish to cite or mention, that there was not controvertible proof (how do you prove fraud unless you catch people red handed?) that Graham, Lee, whoever, felt that for the good of the nation to not pursue the theory that the election may have been stolen or swayed or even remotely tainted?
As Jerry Ford once said, "The long national nightmare is over".

As for BL's "the R's are out of ideas", I have long said that it isn't so much they are out of ideas, they just really suck at expressing why our capitalist system has great potential to change the lives of those less fortunate.  I find fault with the R's ability to put together programs that reward corporations for providing a pathway and training so those left behind can realize The American Dream.
The R's, for as long as I can remember, aside from Gingrich's Contract With America, have always played the part of "the opposition party" far better than the party of real leadership. Case in point, remember back to Bob Dole running against Bill Clinton, "Why not Dole, why not now!"..... Dole was ahead and for a time looked headed to unseating Clinton. Problem was Dole and the Republican brain trust could not make the transition from opposition party to leadership party.

Shame that, given scores of lawsuits, no evidence was produced to back up the allegations.

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Did ya ever stop to think...... I know, I know, but did you ever stop to think that while there were some indications of possible fraud, or even a preponderance of evidence to suggest extensive fraud, or indeed some instances of actual fraud, that folks like Graham and Lee and whoever else you wish to cite or mention, that there was not controvertible proof (how do you prove fraud unless you catch people red handed?) that Graham, Lee, whoever, felt that for the good of the nation to not pursue the theory that the election may have been stolen or swayed or even remotely tainted?
As Jerry Ford once said, "The long national nightmare is over".

As for BL's "the R's are out of ideas", I have long said that it isn't so much they are out of ideas, they just really suck at expressing why our capitalist system has great potential to change the lives of those less fortunate.  I find fault with the R's ability to put together programs that reward corporations for providing a pathway and training so those left behind can realize The American Dream.
The R's, for as long as I can remember, aside from Gingrich's Contract With America, have always played the part of "the opposition party" far better than the party of real leadership. Case in point, remember back to Bob Dole running against Bill Clinton, "Why not Dole, why not now!"..... Dole was ahead and for a time looked headed to unseating Clinton. Problem was Dole and the Republican brain trust could not make the transition from opposition party to leadership party.

Did ya ever consider that without any proof at all, you're just in the middle of a fantasy? The 2020 election produced thirty cases of fraud which were all  prosecuted. Whatever you were told by right wing media you were lied to, and you didn't possess the wherewithal to question it.

'Sucking at expressing' is the same as 'being out of ideas'. The rest of us have known it for a while now, I'm glad you are catching up.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Heck of a retort. Your phrasing and well thought out reply has given me much to ponder.

Mostly because your phrasing and reply was not well thought out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, quod umbra said:

Or more aptly, beyond some to comprehend or consider objectively.

Actual evidence would go a long way in helping folks accept the claims as legitimate.

Absent that, it's just an allegation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Did ya ever consider that without any proof at all, you're just in the middle of a fantasy? The 2020 election produced thirty cases of fraud which were all  prosecuted. Whatever you were told by right wing media you were lied to, and you didn't possess the wherewithal to question it.

'Sucking at expressing' is the same as 'being out of ideas'. The rest of us have known it for a while now, I'm glad you are catching up.

Funny.

So I have been onto the latter part since the 1980's and I am the one catching up? Good to know.

As for prosecuting election fraud, nearly impossible to track and prove if we do not have adequate systems to ensure integrity. Which is precisely the problem. The fact that some willfully do not see that is astonishing. Rather you all argue that minorities are too stupid to get proper ID to facilitate voting......

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Actual evidence would go a long way in helping folks accept the claims as legitimate.

Absent that, it's just an allegation.

See the above. It isn't that we do not have fraud in our elections, it is that we do not have the tools necessary to stop fraud in our elections.

Thanks for playing though

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Funny.

So I have been onto the latter part since the 1980's and I am the one catching up? Good to know.

As for prosecuting election fraud, nearly impossible to track and prove if we do not have adequate systems to ensure integrity. Which is precisely the problem. The fact that some willfully do not see that is astonishing. Rather you all argue that minorities are too stupid to get proper ID to facilitate voting......

Dogballs-types: ThErE wAs MaSsIvE vOtEr FrAuD

Everybody: Where's the proof?

Quod: Fraud is difficult to prove. But there was fraud. Belief me.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

See the above. It isn't that we do not have fraud in our elections, it is that we do not have the tools necessary to stop fraud in our elections.

Thanks for playing though

SHOW US THE PROOF

... or shut up already.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Heck of a retort. Your phrasing and well thought out reply has given me much to ponder.

Nothing wrong with worms, really, that a good dose of Ivermectin can't cure.  Give it a try?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Did ya ever stop to think...... I know, I know, but did you ever stop to think that while there were some indications of possible fraud, or even a preponderance of evidence to suggest extensive fraud, or indeed some instances of actual fraud, that folks like Graham and Lee and whoever else you wish to cite or mention, that there was not controvertible proof (how do you prove fraud unless you catch people red handed?) that Graham, Lee, whoever, felt that for the good of the nation to not pursue the theory that the election may have been stolen or swayed or even remotely tainted?
As Jerry Ford once said, "The long national nightmare is over".

A

No, that's stupid.

How would anyone throw the presidency to one party, but let the Senate and House stay so close to even? 

This one is another where Occam is right. Voters voted. Votes were tallied. Trump was so hated he lost. Bigly. Republicans not hated. Held their own if not gained in spots. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Never had the least-bit of proof for his "Millions of illegal votes" claim in the 2016 election,  despite forming a committee and BEING THE PRESIDENT for 4 years,  did any one REALLY think he'd have a shred of it this time around? 

If you did,  you are a rube.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

At this point, most grown-ups just wish he would go broke and fuck off to Brazil or Russia.

Many pray for a bizarre golf cart accident, a Big Mac stuck in windpipe, a 50lb. block of frozen shit falling from a passenger jet, or a bad batch of Adderall to finish the fucker off.

Prosecuting him would just put his fat ugly ass in the spotlight again, rile up his moronic followers again, waste endless time and money, and nobody wants the world howling with laughter as the USA jails an ex-president.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

See the above. It isn't that we do not have fraud in our elections, it is that we do not have the tools necessary to stop  have very tiny amounts of fraud in our elections and that tiny amount is almost all Republican.

Thanks for playing though

Still beating the drum for Vote Suppression, huh?

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites

You/we have no idea to what extent election fraud exist because we do not have the tools to ensure our elections are secure. Thus anyone who makes such statements is either lying or oblivious.

Which group do you fall in Doogie?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

No, that's stupid.

How would anyone throw the presidency to one party, but let the Senate and House stay so close to even? 

This one is another where Occam is right. Voters voted. Votes were tallied. Trump was so hated he lost. Bigly. Republicans not hated. Held their own if not gained in spots. 

What's stupid M. is not understanding the potentials for unsecure elections and the possibilities that exist due to that lack of security and thus certainty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been examined.  It was examined by the folks under The Former Guy.  The instances of actual fraud are vanishingly small.  In fact, many of the cases uncovered of late were committed by Republicans.  In the words of Happy Jack - "Ahahahahahaha!"

But, that doesn't stop the conspiracy theories, and the folks lacking the intellectual horsepower to see. through them, from continuing to claim it is a major problem.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, quod umbra said:

What's stupid M. is not understanding the potentials for unsecure elections and the possibilities that exist due to that lack of security and thus certainty.

When you have no evidence, you fall back on "potentials" and "possibilities".

As Eva Dent.

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Happy said:

At this point, most grown-ups just wish he would go broke and fuck off to Brazil or Russia.

He would probably do well in either place, though in Russia, Puty would get a take from any scam he ran there and that would really piss off TFG.  He doesn't like sharing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bus Driver said:

When you have no evidence, you fall back on "potentials" and "possibilities".

As Eva Dent.

How hard is it for you to grasp that we lack the checks to know?

There is a road right near where I live, The Bronx River Parkway. Speed limit is 40 MPH and by golly there is little evidence that people habitually speed on the BRPwky because The Westchester County Police rarely ever give out any tickets on that stretch of road. Funny thing is no one goes 40, most are going 55 and some 70+ mph. But dang it no evidence of anyone speeding!

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

How hard is it for you to grasp that we lack the checks to know?

There is a road right near where I live, The Bronx River Parkway. Speed limit is 40 MPH and by golly there is little evidence that people habitually speed on the BRPwky because The Westchester County Police rarely ever give out any tickets on that stretch of road. Funny thing is no one goes 40, most are going 55 and some 70+ mph. But dang it no evidence of anyone speeding!

Errr......you seriously think your are completely bereft of being able to determine fraud??

There is a veritable shit ton of checks and balances built into governmental processes that are required to provide accuracy. If you bothered to look you could find out. I've read copious statements even from the GOP state entities about their own audit results. 

But because it doesn't fit your narrative, you won't bother to check. Because you're lazy and uneducated. 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Republicans Busted In Text Messages Admitting Election Laws Have Nothing To Do With Fraud 
 

Text messages obtained in a lawsuit related to Florida’s election reform law revealed that the new law had nothing to do with fraud. 

Republicans reveal their real reason for passing election reform laws. 

https://www.politicususa.com/2021/09/20/republicans-busted-in-text-messages-admitting-election-laws-have-nothing-to-do-with-fraud.html 

"SNIP....... 

Politico reported on the texts: 

Yet in one remarkable text exchange obtained by POLITICO, Gruters and lead House sponsor state Rep. Blaise Ingoglia (R-Spring Hill) went back-and-forth over proposals to shorten how long mail-in ballot requests are valid. 

Gruters defended a Senate proposal to cancel all existing mail-in ballot requests, saying that it would be “devastating” for Republicans to keep them valid heading into the 2022 election when DeSantis and other state GOP officials are up for reelection. More than 2.18 million Democrats used mail-in ballots compared to 1.5 million Republican voters during the 2020 election where Trump easily won Florida. Part of that was due to the ongoing pandemic, as Democrats strongly encouraged voters to change their habits nationwide. 

“We cannot make up ground. Trump campaign spent 10 million. Could not cut down lead,” Gruters wrote to Ingoglia, who had been chair of the Republican Party of Florida before Gruters. 


......SNIP"

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Errr......you seriously think your are compeltely bereft of determining fraud??

There is a veritable shit ton of checks and balances built into governmental processes that are required to provide accuracy. If you bothered to look you could find out. I've read copious statements even from the GOP state entities about audit results. 

But because it doesn't fit your narrative, you won't bother to check. Because you're lazy and uneducated. 

 

It doesn't matter to folks like The Shadow.  You could produce mountains of evidence showing any fraud is vanishingly small and nowhere near enough to throw an election.  He, like Dog, would just go back to "Well, it's possible..."

Scores of lawsuits were filed and examined and found to be bereft of evidence.  They were rejected.  And, still he persists.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

... Funny thing is no one goes 40, most are going 55 and some 70+ mph. But dang it no evidence of anyone speeding!

How do you know most are going 55 to 70?

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

What's stupid M. is not understanding the potentials for unsecure elections and the possibilities that exist due to that lack of security and thus certainty.

So, you acknowledge that elections in the USA are actually secure and honest?

Ah, and when your guy loses, and screams about fraud incessantly, you don't get to claim that it is some kind of systemic problem. It's a sore loser problem. But if you want to have democracy, you have to accept the result of other peoples' votes.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, bhyde said:

How do you know most are going 55 to 70?

It's the "change the argument to one he'd RATHER argue" strategy.

It's just like when the telltales on the outside at the TOP of the genoa are stalling, but the ones on the bottom inside are stalling.

Just like that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mike G said:

It's the "change the argument to one he'd RATHER argue" strategy.

It's just like when the telltales on the outside at the TOP of the genoa are stalling, but the ones on the bottom inside are stalling.

Just like that.

How do you know the bottom ones haven't been treated with something to make them do that?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Mike G said:

It's the "change the argument to one he'd RATHER argue" strategy.

It's just like when the telltales on the outside at the TOP of the genoa are stalling, but the ones on the bottom inside are stalling.

Just like that.

He's going to claim that he has seen people speeding, or done it himself. Fine. He can now tell us about the people he has seen committing voter fraud.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

How do you know the bottom ones haven't been treated with something to make them do that?

I have PROOF they've been painted on.  And I'll reveal that truth at my symposium next month.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Not quite as strong in so many others here who think themselves immune.

Your boy Trudeau going down tonight??

Not my boy, I usually vote lefter than that.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Mike G said:

I have PROOF they've been painted on.  And I'll reveal that truth at my symposium next month.

How do I get tickets to the symposium? Better yet, can I be a presenter? I recently checked police records and found that no tickets have EVER been issued for speeding at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, bhyde said:
13 minutes ago, Mike G said:

I have PROOF they've been painted on.  And I'll reveal that truth at my symposium next month.

How do I get tickets to the symposium? Better yet, can I be a presenter? I recently checked police records and found that no tickets have EVER been issued for speeding at the bottom of the Marianas Trench. 

Do you wanna go before, or after, the My Pillow guy?

- DSK

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

What's stupid M. is not understanding the potentials for unsecure elections and the possibilities that exist due to that lack of security and thus certainty.

Our country has run "unsecured" elections since the founding. Seems to work pretty fucking well, until, well, Trump.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Our country has run "unsecured" elections since the founding. Seems to work pretty fucking well, until, well, Trump.

The 2020 Election “worked well”.  As in, it was secure and verified several times over. 
 

THAT is what pisses off The Former Guy and the Faithful. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Our country has run "unsecured" elections since the founding. Seems to work pretty fucking well, until, well, Trump.

I note with some amusement that the elk didn't object when Trump won an election he called "rigged" even before he won it. Where was the call for more election security then? 

I guess the strategy is, If You Can't Beat Them, Destroy Democracy.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, bhyde said:

I note with some amusement that the elk didn't object when Trump won an election he called "rigged" even before he won it. Where was the call for more election security then? 

I guess the strategy is, If You Can't Beat Them, Destroy Democracy.

Not only that, but Trump was preznit for 4 years between that election, which he called rigged, and the next one. What did he do, as preznit, to ensure election security?

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Trump is the object of all these machinations, but the real ones responsible are the members of the GOP who put party before country.

Until and unless we address their attempts to subvert democracy in our country, we invite their repeat efforts, informed by their mistakes and emboldened by the lack of blowback.

The GOP is a national security threat because it harbors and empowers members who actively pursued methods of staging a coup and have since shown little remorse.

Those Republicans retiring from active politics are moderates and their departure merely leaves space for more extremists to fill their ranks.

My take on it is these GOP politicians saw tfg as a useful idiot that would further their goals.  Somehow shitcanoe tapped into the anger, resentment, and unhappiness of the working class white voter of all ages that no other GOP operative or pol has ever before been able to accomplish before.  And I think that feeling grew over the last 4 years when gaff after gaff, after embarrassing gaff and fuckup failed to move the needle even a little bit with these voters.  

So they saw him as their ticket to long term dominance of the American political scene.  I'm sure all but a very few actually believed in his BS.  But they were willing to entertain it and tolerate it because they could ride the wave to stay in their jobs or even move onto greater things as long as they continued to tongue his balls.  I honestly don't know how you fix it.  Short term, shitbucket needs to either go to jail for a long time so people eventually forget him or he dies.  But what I'm most afraid of long term, maybe even middle term, is that people with ambitions of authoritarian power have taken notes on what worked and what didn't.  We were perilously close to losing our democracy.  Sadly, too many people honestly thought that the insurrectionists were attempting to SAVE our democracy.  I don't truly don't know how you counter that.  

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

And the GOP leadership in every state is going along with the use of death threats against opponents - even in their own party. 

Until they all actively denounce and oppose that, they have no place in American politics. 

And the mods here have the audacity to object to calling them "R-e-e-o-c-h-istas". 

Whatever you say, OTP.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Cheating and power are the new way for the GOP, the only way to impact that is to throw Trump in jail, and everyone is afraid to do that.

Who is "Everyone"?  Who has the power to throw him in jail right now?  And Why aren't they doing it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, quod umbra said:

See the above. It isn't that we do not have fraud in our elections, it is that we do not have the tools necessary to stop fraud in our elections.

Thanks for playing though

 

14 hours ago, quod umbra said:

You/we have no idea to what extent election fraud exist because we do not have the tools to ensure our elections are secure. Thus anyone who makes such statements is either lying or oblivious.

Which group do you fall in Doogie?

Absent evidence for his assumptions, qu and the rest of the Republican so-called critical thinkers are convincing themselves that if they are losing, there must be electoral fraud. Overconfidence masking weakness on a national scale. 

Problem is, their message isn't attracting voters. 

Rather than change their message, they've decided to attack or game the system of democracy which currently ensures they lose elections.

This is the largely the fault of gerrymandering, since only the most inflexible and extreme right candidate can survive a primary in a Republican district, but FOX and friends have their role to play. 

I get the sense of a united front, of proud standard bearers providing a impressive bulwark of military and authoritarian might glaring down the enemies of righteousness... and weak flanks with suburban folks edging away from the crazy Spartans beating their chests and showing their weapons, shouting their curses. Kids are wearing masks and cowering in classrooms during active shooter drills and some of the parents are wondering wtf?

Historically, the country follows California, the 5th largest economy in the world, and the source of trends which sweep across the nation be they digital, cultural or political. Recently the site of an electoral smackdown against power hungry Republicans seeking to minimize & ridicule the use of government to try to protect citizens.

Turns out, Californians know that one of the roles of the government is to organize our efforts to defeat a pandemic, and even if there is overreach, the intent and the goals are more worthy than those of right wing complainers who have no legislative skillset other than whining, empowering lobbyists of the rich and connected, and playing culture wars.

Trump, Inc is going to be on trial during the summer next year, so the headlines will be a mix of midterm elections and Trump malfeasance. The warm weather and youngster COVID vaccinations will probably mean a relaxation of pandemic problems. If the GOP shuts down the government over a transportation and infrastructure fight this fall their intransigence will be in recent memory...

These could be the darkest moments before the dawn.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Who is "Everyone"?  Who has the power to throw him in jail right now?  And Why aren't they doing it?

Georgia DOJ, SDNY, US Attorney General and the Department of Justice. have the ability to charge and prosecute. Georgia is still investigating, SDNY is still investigating and will Take Trump Org to trial in the summer of 2022, they have not individually charged DJT.The USDOJ has remained silent, but is expected to move on this in the near future. Whatever the USDOJ does will be weighed politically as well as judicially. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

 

Absent evidence for his assumptions, qu and the rest of the Republican so-called critical thinkers are convincing themselves that if they are losing, there must be electoral fraud. Overconfidence masking weakness on a national scale. 

Problem is, their message isn't attracting voters. 

Rather than change their message, they've decided to attack or game the system of democracy which currently ensures they lose elections.

This is the largely the fault of gerrymandering, since only the most inflexible and extreme right candidate can survive a primary in a Republican district, but FOX and friends have their role to play. 

I get the sense of a united front, of proud standard bearers providing a impressive bulwark of military and authoritarian might glaring down the enemies of righteousness... and weak flanks with suburban folks edging away from the crazy Spartans beating their chests and showing their weapons, shouting their curses. Kids are wearing masks and cowering in classrooms during active shooter drills and some of the parents are wondering wtf?

Historically, the country follows California, the 5th largest economy in the world, and the source of trends which sweep across the nation be they digital, cultural or political. Recently the site of an electoral smackdown against power hungry Republicans seeking to minimize & ridicule the use of government to try to protect citizens.

Turns out, Californians know that one of the roles of the government is to organize our efforts to defeat a pandemic, and even if there is overreach, the intent and the goals are more worthy than those of right wing complainers who have no legislative skillset other than whining, empowering lobbyists of the rich and connected, and playing culture wars.

Trump, Inc is going to be on trial during the summer next year, so the headlines will be a mix of midterm elections and Trump malfeasance. The warm weather and youngster COVID vaccinations will probably mean a relaxation of pandemic problems. If the GOP shuts down the government over a transportation and infrastructure fight this fall their intransigence will be in recent memory...

These could be the darkest moments before the dawn.

And if their strategy works it will get a lot darker

Link to post
Share on other sites

On a lighter note...

The average age of empires, according to a specialist on the subject, the late Sir John Bagot Glubb, is 250 years. After that, empires always die, often slowly but overwhelmingly from overreaching in the search for power. The America of 1776 will reach its 250th year in 2026.

If Drump is reelected in 2024, it looks like we'll only have to wait two years for The End. I know I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure it will be a peaceful, quiet process.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

and nobody wants the world howling with laughter as the USA jails an ex-president.

I'd say it would go a long way to in restoring our world standing.   They've already been laughing, in our faces.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, bhyde said:

On a lighter note...

The average age of empires, according to a specialist on the subject, the late Sir John Bagot Glubb, is 250 years. After that, empires always die, often slowly but overwhelmingly from overreaching in the search for power. The America of 1776 will reach its 250th year in 2026.

If Drump is reelected in 2024, it looks like we'll only have to wait two years for The End. I know I'm looking forward to it. I'm sure it will be a peaceful, quiet process.

The USA of 1776 was not an empire. It was a loose amalgam of almost-sovereign states. In 1790, the US Constitution came into effect, and it was a sort of empire in that the Federal Gov't had very loose claim/jurisdiction over a large area outside the states; which subsequently went about organizing into states. Even the Louisiana Purchase, the last of which was not brought into statehood for over a hundred years, was not really part of an "empire" because the intention and eventual goal was to make it into a regular part of the country.

I'd suggest that the USA did not become an empire until the 1890s, when large business conglomerations had attached financial interests within other countries strong enough to seek... and get... US gov't intervention in those countries. With taking over the project to build the Panama Canal, and the territories "won" in the Spanish-American War, the USA truly became an empire. So we should be good until about 2140 or so, unless speedier transport and communication changes the timeline.

All that said, I completely agree: Trump and the majority Republicans are a serious threat to the USA's continued existence.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Our country has run "unsecured" elections since the founding. Seems to work pretty fucking well, until, well, Trump.

Okay, then bearing that in mind, why would we not fortify our election process by making ID mandatory? Would that not serve to prevent a repeat of someone taking Trump's tact and declaring an election having been stolen? Why should we empower those who would claim voter fraud by not strengthening verification of eligibility to vote? We are not talking about reinventing the wheel, we are simply saying show proof of your eligibility to vote. The mechanism for that already exists in that every state issues photo ID. So all we are really doing is asking folks to present that identification at the time of going to the polls.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Okay, then bearing that in mind, why would we not fortify our election process by making ID mandatory? Would that not serve to prevent a repeat of someone taking Trump's tact and declaring an election having been stolen? Why should we empower those who would claim voter fraud by not strengthening verification of eligibility to vote? We are not talking about reinventing the wheel, we are simply saying show proof of your eligibility to vote. The mechanism for that already exists in that every state issues photo ID. So all we are really doing is asking folks to present that identification at the time of going to the polls.

How will insisting on an ID work with mail-in voting?  It has been used by states, as well as the military, for decades.

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Okay, then bearing that in mind, why would we not fortify our election process by making ID mandatory? Would that not serve to prevent a repeat of someone taking Trump's tact and declaring an election having been stolen? Why should we empower those who would claim voter fraud by not strengthening verification of eligibility to vote? We are not talking about reinventing the wheel, we are simply saying show proof of your eligibility to vote. The mechanism for that already exists in that every state issues photo ID. So all we are really doing is asking folks to present that identification at the time of going to the polls.

1) It's not needed

2) Because as soon as that is instituted, you'll want something else. Fingerprint matches maybe. Any way to increase the hurdles for the marginized folx.

3) And don't fucking dare take away my vote-by-mail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stop with the code words "the marginalized". If you think there is a segment of society that is incapable, say so and say why.

It is needed, our elections are susceptible to fraud. Why do you support voter fraud?

As far as mail in voting. I have no issue with it in principle. Let's just make certain that those who wish to vote by mail are the ones actually voting by mail.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

It is needed, our elections are susceptible to fraud. Why do you support voter fraud?

As far as mail in voting. I have no issue with it in principle. Let's just make certain that those who wish to vote by mail are the ones actually voting by mail.

No one "supports" voter fraud.  No one.  So, stop with the ridiculous misrepresentations of others.

As to making "certain" around vote by mail - How?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Stop with the code words "the marginalized". If you think there is a segment of society that is incapable, say so and say why.

It is needed, our elections are susceptible to fraud. Why do you support voter fraud?

As far as mail in voting. I have no issue with it in principle. Let's just make certain that those who wish to vote by mail are the ones actually voting by mail.

What voter fraud?

It's a serious crime. It should be prosecuted.

Bring proof, and we'll prosecute it.

Trying to end democracy on the basis you're afraid  there -might- be voter fraud is not acceptable

- DSK

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

 

It is needed, our elections are susceptible to fraud. 

 

such bullshit.

Show us ANY evidence of such fraud. (Other than the occasional Republican county chair, where ID wouldn't matter anyway)

Come on man, if you're gonna fix a problem, you should be able to describe it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

such bullshit.

Show us ANY evidence of such fraud. (Other than the occasional Republican county chair, where ID wouldn't matter anyway)

Come on man, if you're gonna fix a problem, you should be able to describe it.

Keep in mind, that because we have no way of detecting voter fraud, it must be happening. GOP Logic.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, bhyde said:

Keep in mind, that because we have no way of detecting voter fraud, it must be happening. GOP Logic.

GOP logic is "If we are doing something, we'll accuse the other side of doing it". There's a reason most cases of voter fraud are committed by Republicans.

Or maybe it's because they aren't as smart as Dems, so they get caught. The R's don't come off well in either scenario.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ishmael said:

GOP logic is "If we are doing something, we'll accuse the other side of doing it". There's a reason most cases of voter fraud are committed by Republicans.

Or maybe it's because they aren't as smart as Dems, so they get caught. The R's don't come off well in either scenario.

Get out in front of a scandal/accusation.  Blame the other side.

Then when it comes out that THEY did it, it turns into a "well, both sides are equal"

and the public is overloaded and doesn't know what/who to believe.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

The USA of 1776 was not an empire. It was a loose amalgam of almost-sovereign states. In 1790, the US Constitution came into effect, and it was a sort of empire in that the Federal Gov't had very loose claim/jurisdiction over a large area outside the states; which subsequently went about organizing into states. Even the Louisiana Purchase, the last of which was not brought into statehood for over a hundred years, was not really part of an "empire" because the intention and eventual goal was to make it into a regular part of the country.

I'd suggest that the USA did not become an empire until the 1890s, when large business conglomerations had attached financial interests within other countries strong enough to seek... and get... US gov't intervention in those countries. With taking over the project to build the Panama Canal, and the territories "won" in the Spanish-American War, the USA truly became an empire. So we should be good until about 2140 or so, unless speedier transport and communication changes the timeline.

All that said, I completely agree: Trump and the majority Republicans are a serious threat to the USA's continued existence.

- DSK

I agree that the start of the construction of the American Empire began with the use of vast private wealth (Rockefeller, Carnegie and Morgan) being spread internationally with military excursions following into our collecting colonies. 

But the American Century really began when we nobly entered into WWI and ended with TFG stumbling into his morally and ethically disastrous *residency.  Almost exactly 100 years. 

Our 100 year empire.  Pfffffft.  Maybe that's a good thing, but the next empire up to the plate doesn't seem to be an upgrade.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites