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Is Fusion really about to happen?


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I read an article a few weeks back about a new magnet. Then I saw another article. God bless them hard working scientists and out tax dollars.

MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion energy | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Then I I saw this article.

How fusion power will make the Green New Deal obsolete | Washington Examiner

 

Not only will this help to create clean energy but think of the Advanced Space Ship Thruster, the Plasma drive, which needs powerful magnets to aim the plasma out the ass end of the ship. And the maybe into our aircraft and eliminate the jet engine. My son is going to see some great things happen.

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20 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

I read an article a few weeks back about a new magnet. Then I saw another article. God bless them hard working scientists and out tax dollars.

MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion energy | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Then I I saw this article.

How fusion power will make the Green New Deal obsolete | Washington Examiner

 

Not only will this help to create clean energy but think of the Advanced Space Ship Thruster, the Plasma drive, which needs powerful magnets to aim the plasma out the ass end of the ship. And the maybe into our aircraft and eliminate the jet engine. My son is going to see some great things happen.

Don’t negate the innovation of the last 50 years. Pretty damn impressive.
 

and yes, eventually we’ll have fusion power. Sooner would be better. Maybe in my lifetime, maybe not 

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1 hour ago, Meat Wad said:

I read an article a few weeks back about a new magnet. Then I saw another article. God bless them hard working scientists and out tax dollars.

MIT-designed project achieves major advance toward fusion energy | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Then I I saw this article.

How fusion power will make the Green New Deal obsolete | Washington Examiner

 

Not only will this help to create clean energy but think of the Advanced Space Ship Thruster, the Plasma drive, which needs powerful magnets to aim the plasma out the ass end of the ship. And the maybe into our aircraft and eliminate the jet engine. My son is going to see some great things happen.

Ah yes, the Washington Examiner. Fusion is right around the corner so let's not bother with any inconvenient climate action using this libtard renewable tech.

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32 minutes ago, IStream said:

Ah yes, the Washington Examiner. Fusion is right around the corner so let's not bother with any inconvenient climate action using this libtard renewable tech.

Absent other advances, this will cover it...

image.png.b8a83c462639c7d17b4d69cae8d00e06.png the Flux Capacitor...

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Wow, fusion energy will make electric power so cheap they won't even have to meter it!  

 

 

 

Oh, wait, haven't we heard something similar years ago?

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2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Wow, fusion energy will make electric power so cheap they won't even have to meter it!  Oh, wait, haven't we heard something similar years ago?

No, thet wase supercondunctivitey............  'invermectine' of the nineties.                     :)

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4 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Wow, fusion energy will make electric power so cheap they won't even have to meter it!  

 

 

 

Oh, wait, haven't we heard something similar years ago?

Watching the Gemini program space walks as a kid I remember the news guy saying we'll have colonies on Mars by 2000 - well that came and went..  

But, I just passed a Mars Bar through my colon, does that count?

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46 minutes ago, ROADKILL666 said:

I say 30yrs

Read some of other articles from MIT about the research into the process.

It's going to be longer than that, if it even ever happens without some very significant breakthroughs. 

They are still at the beginning of the beginning, not even the end of the beginning.  

Meathead and the Washington Examiner are a little premature in their expectations.  

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Studying business 101 in collage the prof had us go to a pile of annual reports and had each  student pick one to study. When We got back to our chairs and he asked me why I picked the one I had. l answered simply “ I picked one off the top of the pile”. He said “ very shrewd.”  Then he went on to explained we were going to take a field trip to Ann Arbor, Mi that semester to the annual stock holders meeting with a tour of the research lab of the company I had picked.

A Cold Fusion power generating start up corporation. That was in 1975. I’ve followed the promise of cold fusion from a investors side since then…. Lots of talk with  no Nobel prizes in Physics yet for Sustainable Cold Fusion. Could this be it? Is it time to get in?  seems like a young mans dream still…  “Two Words Cold Fusion! “

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29 minutes ago, DRIFTW00D said:

Studying business 101 in collage the prof had us go to a pile of annual reports and had each  student pick one to study. When We got back to our chairs and he asked me why I picked the one I had. l answered simply “ I picked one off the top of the pile”. He said “ very shrewd.”  Then he went on to explained we were going to take a field trip to Ann Arbor, Mi that semester to the annual stock holders meeting with a tour of the research lab of the company I had picked.

A Cold Fusion power generating start up corporation. That was in 1975. I’ve followed the promise of cold fusion from a investors side since then…. Lots of talk with  no Nobel prizes in Physics yet for Sustainable Cold Fusion. Could this be it? Is it time to get in?  seems like a young mans dream still…  “Two Words Cold Fusion! “

The MIT project involves plasma, hardly "cold" fusion. 

It will be a cold day in hell before cold fusion happens.

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6 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

The MIT project involves plasma, hardly "cold" fusion. 

It will be a cold day in hell before cold fusion happens.

Hell already Freezes every winter in Michigan’s Thumb. 

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The breakthrough is a big improvement in generating the magnetic field that would be used for containment of plasma in a "hot" fusion reactor.  According to the article, the strength and size of the field improve the reactor performance.  We've had hot fusion reactors for some time now (research reactors, generating little or no net power).

I can believe that we're still "20 years" from a practical fusion power generation reactor, but this room-temperature superconducting electromagnet sounds like a significant advance.  Maybe it's really 20 years this time.

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6 minutes ago, valis said:

The breakthrough is a big improvement in generating the magnetic field that would be used for containment of plasma in a "hot" fusion reactor.  According to the article, the strength and size of the field improve the reactor performance.  We've had hot fusion reactors for some time now (research reactors, generating little or no net power).

I can believe that we're still "20 years" from a practical fusion power generation reactor, but this room-temperature superconducting electromagnet sounds like a significant advance.  Maybe it's really 20 years this time.

Minor nit: that's "high temperature", not "room temperature". You still need liquid nitrogen but that's, relatively speaking, high temperature.

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1 minute ago, IStream said:

Minor nit: that's "high temperature", not "room temperature". You still need liquid nitrogen but that's, relatively speaking, high temperature.

Sorry, I should have re-read the article before posting.  But yes, in this context liquid nitrogen is practically room temperature.

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I was in college (85-90) when the high temperature superconductor breakthroughs were happening. It was exciting and there were all sorts of popular science extrapolations showing that we'd have room temp supers real soon now and what a revolution it would be for fusion, maglev, and other technologies. Here we are 35+ years later and they're just figuring out how to produce those 1990 high temp supers at scale. Seems glacial, yet its right on schedule when you consider than 150 years ago we were still using horses and buggies, 100 years ago we still didn't have commercial aviation and hadn't split the atom, and it was only about 50 years ago that we went to the moon. I could see fusion becoming commercially viable in the next 20 years but probably not widespread for 20 more after that.

Shit takes time and you gotta get to version 3 of most anything before all the kinks are wrung out.

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2 hours ago, slap said:

Fusion is already here.   And it's sitting just 93 million miles away.

And we already have the technology to turn it into electricity.  I believe Einstein published a paper about it in 1905, If I recall correctly.  

Yup...

th.jpeg

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Oddly enough, the "great scientist in the sky" determined that 93 million miles was just about the correct distance to keep a fusion reaction away from various organic life forms.  And here we are!

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3 hours ago, slap said:

Fusion is already here.   And it's sitting just 93 million miles away.

Actually 9 May 1951 the Operation Greenhouse performed fusion right here on Earth. All the fusion power work since then was, basically, to find a way to trigger it with something less than an fission bomb (lasers) and then control and maintain fusion in a more polite way than destroying small Pacific Islands. 
They have made a tiny bit of progress. No way will there be commercial fusion power in this century. Even the National Ignition Facility (Take a look at that huge machine) is like making fire by rubbing sticks together eons ago and thinking that building a oil-fueled power plant is imminent. 

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7 hours ago, Left Shift said:

And we already have the technology to turn it into electricity.  I believe Einstein published a paper about it in 1905, If I recall correctly.  

Yup...

th.jpeg

Of all Einstien's work, the Photo Electric Theory is what earned him a Nobel.:ph34r:

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19 hours ago, Charlie Foxtrot said:

Fusion power is always 30 years in the future.  

12 hours ago, Autonomous said:

It seems the technology is 85% complete. 

You think 20 or 30 years is alot of time. It seems like yesterday was december 1997 when I fell. Time fly's quickly but people want everything NOW.

I know they have been wanting the Sangrael (holy grail ) for sometime. The new magnet is a huge huge step and I hope it really gets this going.

 

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13 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

You think 20 or 30 years is alot of time. It seems like yesterday was december 1997 when I fell. Time fly's quickly but people want everything NOW.

I know they have been wanting the Sangrael (holy grail ) for sometime. The new magnet is a huge huge step and I hope it really gets this going.

 

Ya know, we do harvest fusion energy quite a bit nowadays. I personally provide about 80% of my electricity consumption via fusion energy harvesting. It's quite simple, and not that expensive. Even powers our car for short trips. 

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Shit, I generate 50% more fusion power than I can use and fully paid off my roofamak in 5 years. The local utility considers my excess power too cheap to meter so I don't get squat for it!

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3 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

You think 20 or 30 years is alot of time. It seems like yesterday was december 1997 when I fell. Time fly's quickly but people want everything NOW.

I know they have been wanting the Sangrael (holy grail ) for sometime. The new magnet is a huge huge step and I hope it really gets this going.

 

Mr Meat, I truly hope Fusion Power is right around the corner. But....

I first heard about fusion in High School. It was a Modern Miracle of SCIENCE that would be available in only 30 years! 

For each of the next 40 years, fusion has always been 30 year in the future. ;)  Nine years ago, Lockheed announced a semi-trailer sized fusion plant that would be available in only 10 years!  I guess that's progress... ;)      

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16 hours ago, Autonomous said:

It seems the technology is 85% complete. 

No, the science is about 85% complete, the actual physical technology is maybe at most 5% complete.  The biggest hurdle at this point is while the science says that a strong magnetic field will insulate the components of the system from the incredible heat of the plasma, there are many details involved to insure that the heat can be controlled, under various circumstances.  It is far from a simple problem.  All they have done at this point is produced a super magnet that in theory can insulate mere metal from the incredible heat of the plasma.  This isn't cold fusion, this is surface of the sun hot fusion.  It sure as shit isn't going to be ready in 20 or 30 years. It isn't unreasonable to presume that translating calculations and theoretical ideas into reality with temperatures that are far beyond anything that humans have any practical experience with, isn't going to be a painless process.  They haven't even built a small scale working design yet, let alone anything that will be viable on a commercial level.  It would be like bringing an amount of the sun's energy to earth in a bottle and trying to contain it in a lab. 

It's going to be a lot of years if ever that this will be possible.  Read the articles that are linked to the MIT article in the OP, and read what they are actually saying.  There is only hopes and dreams and a lot of theoretical calculations, not much more at this point.  Calculations and theoretical knowledge is necessary but is still far removed form reality and practical applications.  They are literally at the very tip of a huge iceberg and not even one centimeter closer at this point.  If they ever make this happen, it will make the moon landing look like child's play.  If it were any easier, they would have done it by now.

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Some say that by 2035 ITER will be ready "to demonstrate and test technologies that would be needed to operate a fusion power plant including cryogenics, heating, control, and diagnostics systems, including remote maintenance; to achieve and learn from a burning plasma; to test tritium breeding; and to demonstrate the safety of a fusion plant." 1 Good as gold, mate.

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7 hours ago, weightless said:

Some say that by 2035 ITER will be ready "to demonstrate and test technologies that would be needed to operate a fusion power plant including cryogenics, heating, control, and diagnostics systems, including remote maintenance; to achieve and learn from a burning plasma; to test tritium breeding; and to demonstrate the safety of a fusion plant." 1 Good as gold, mate.

I'll be sure to check back in 14 years.  Practical fusion isn't going to happen in my lifetime though.

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The part I find interesting is that fusion will suddenly solve the energy problems of the world. That it will be free energy to everyone, as much as you want for a couple of pesos.

In reality it will be controlled and sold for whatever people will pay.

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11 minutes ago, Gissie said:

The part I find interesting is that fusion will suddenly solve the energy problems of the world. That it will be free energy to everyone, as much as you want for a couple of pesos.

In reality it will be controlled and sold for whatever people will pay.

Says Gissie the Climate change denier.

Fusion, same price, no CO2.  No fucked planet. No pay for Gissie.

image.png.2f8455bcc9c615caad5dc2e53e40becf.png

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45 minutes ago, random. said:

Says Gissie the Climate change denier.

Fusion, same price, no CO2.  No fucked planet. No pay for Gissie.

image.png.2f8455bcc9c615caad5dc2e53e40becf.png

I wonder if the day will ever occur that you give a reply that relates to a post. Or will you be forever stuck with your inane pics of what you, in your shroom induced reality, think is the truth.

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On 9/22/2021 at 11:23 AM, Meat Wad said:

My son is going to see some great things happen.

My grandmother went to the bridal home via horse and buggy , bridal home was sans electricity .

Before she passed she saw a man on the moon ,

 

That'll take some beating .

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On 9/21/2021 at 8:45 PM, Raz'r said:

Don’t negate the innovation of the last 50 years. Pretty damn impressive.
 

and yes, eventually we’ll have fusion power. Sooner would be better. Maybe in my lifetime, maybe not 

Most likely not in our lifetimes unfortunately.

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8 hours ago, Gissie said:

The part I find interesting is that fusion will suddenly solve the energy problems of the world. That it will be free energy to everyone, as much as you want for a couple of pesos.

In reality it will be controlled and sold for whatever people will pay.

I agree in part. I think there is a lot of tech that they wont release because it will be back engineered quickly.  And the question of how to charge for it. Our economy is based on monthly payments for quarterly profit statements for stock valuation which is counter productive to actual innovation that benefits the people.

If they have a new tech that would kill the Internal Combustion Engine industry, do you think they would really let it loose?? No, because the world economy would take decades to recover. Everyone with stock in those industries would tank and the markets would crash.

I think the issue with fusion is they keep trying to do large scale because they need a big provider and a way to bill us monthly and the grid, what a joke.
If they worked on smaller devices that would power my home and decentralize the Ele system, that would be the way to go. I remember reading in Popular Mech about the Thorium Reactor that would run a car for 1000 years. also you would power your home off of it. I nice concept but it does have some impracticalities.

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The planet will be well fucked over by the large body cancer colonies that are propagating in every region, exhausting pollutants and disturbing natural processes to the point of extinction.  

Frankly, I'd rather make sure we have rhinoceroses, salmon and wild grasses than fusion power for mining bitcoins.   As noted above, we already have solar power. we just need to focus on why we want to be here.  Or, do we want to set the record for the shortest-lived dominant species the earth has ever supported in its 4 billion year history.  Dinosaurs lasted about 250,000,000 years.  We will be lucky to make it past the few 100,000 years we've been around.  

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14 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

If they have a new tech that would kill the Internal Combustion Engine industry, do you think they would really let it loose?? No, because the world economy would take decades to recover. Everyone with stock in those industries would tank and the markets would crash.

Who is this "They"?  Can anyone show me actual evidence that this has really happened in the past?  In a significant way?  I've heard people talk about suppressed tech (100 MPG carburetors, eternal light bulbs, Nikolai Tesla's stolen papers), etc, but I truly believe that these are random delusions.  On the other hand, I've seen new tech disrupt plenty of industries, to the benefit of those who adopt it.

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19 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:


If they worked on smaller devices that would power my home and decentralize the Ele system, that would be the way to go.

I have that already. Why don't you?

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When I took a Tokamak tour in 1974, the physicists thought 50 years to commercial application.  Too optimistic, obviously.  Considering materials that are known to withstand the plasma in the long term don't exist yet, we're probably decades away.  Good article (Challenges for plasma-facing components in nuclear fusion) in the link; not very technical but fairly thorough.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.5090100

 

Challenges for plasma-facing components in nuclear fusion.png

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5 hours ago, valis said:

Who is this "They"?  Can anyone show me actual evidence that this has really happened in the past?  In a significant way?  I've heard people talk about suppressed tech (100 MPG carburetors, eternal light bulbs, Nikolai Tesla's stolen papers), etc, but I truly believe that these are random delusions.  On the other hand, I've seen new tech disrupt plenty of industries, to the benefit of those who adopt it.

Well, look what "they" did to the Stanley Steamer, and all the naptha powered marine engine.  Bastards wouldn't let that technology see the light of day.  

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3 hours ago, RedTuna said:

When I took a Tokamak tour in 1974, the physicists thought 50 years to commercial application.  Too optimistic, obviously.  Considering materials that are known to withstand the plasma in the long term don't exist yet, we're probably decades away.  Good article (Challenges for plasma-facing components in nuclear fusion) in the link; not very technical but fairly thorough.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.5090100

 

Challenges for plasma-facing components in nuclear fusion.png

I thought the whole idea of inertial and magnetic confinement was to keep the fusion reaction far enough away from the containment chamber walls that such materials would not be needed.

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

I thought the whole idea of inertial and magnetic confinement was to keep the fusion reaction far enough away from the containment chamber walls that such materials would not be needed.

The container absorbs all the energy produced (if any…heh) and in turn heats water for steam or whatever to make electricity by some means. The energetic particles easily destroy all known materials. If not immediately, in a short period.

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8 hours ago, Rain Man said:

I thought the whole idea of inertial and magnetic confinement was to keep the fusion reaction far enough away from the containment chamber walls that such materials would not be needed.

Is that why the sun is where it is?

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Do you suppose Jesus will bring the technology with him??

I think you are confusing the 'son of God' with the 'sun of God'.

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21 hours ago, Rain Man said:

I thought the whole idea of inertial and magnetic confinement was to keep the fusion reaction far enough away from the containment chamber walls that such materials would not be needed.

93,000,000 miles seems about right.  Or do you want that in kilometers?

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54 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

What is it you have?

 

A smaller device that enables me to be self-sufficient and decentralize the grid…

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If I had to guess, we're probably ~15 years from a functional concept, then probably another 15 years to a practical reactor.

Where things are different now, as opposed to 1990, is that we've got exponentially more computing power.

Asian countries have made great strides over the past two decades as well, and I think it's likely that you'll see a breakthrough before too long. But that said (and I work in this industry), for those who are banking on this as a climate change solution, we won't be fast enough for you. Fusion may be a long-term solution, but it's not going to be ready fast enough to solve the crisis we're currently facing. The brilliant engineers and physicists over in the nuclear fission field have a solution.

In any case, the development of fusion reactors is going to also pay off in less exciting ways. The medical industry is one area that will likely see a lot of benefits.

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21 hours ago, Raz'r said:

A smaller device that enables me to be self-sufficient and decentralize the grid…

speak up mate, don't be shy. and if you say a propane generator...................................POW

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52 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

speak up mate, don't be shy. and if you say a propane generator...................................POW

No, it's a fusion harvester.

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On 9/22/2021 at 2:40 AM, Ed Lada said:

Wow, fusion energy will make electric power so cheap they won't even have to meter it!  

 

 

 

Oh, wait, haven't we heard something similar years ago?

In the 30’s, our town has a dam just downriver.  Then in the 60’s, a dam just upriver.  $.01 / kw hour.  Architects designed gold medallion homes.  Then the BPA grabbed it all for California.  And so it goes…..

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The same people who keep saying we need to quit exhaling, farting

and walk everywhere while paying Higher TAXes to Un-Fuck the earth

are trying to mine out and/or harvest in some other way Concentrate "stuff"

that otherwise is just sitting harmlessly making up the earth

THEN We need to figure out How to Get Rid of it read radioactive waste, used carbon fiber, aluminum glass and plastic

oh ya and COVID

 

How about going back to being more Passive & living off the Earth by making use and adapting to what the Earth does on its own

AS for Fusion there is Plenty around most every thread but it's in the form of = Con-Fusion

 

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On 9/27/2021 at 4:38 PM, Meat Wad said:

speak up mate, don't be shy. and if you say a propane generator...................................POW

house-with-solar-panels-174673282-ab883d

Ever seen these before? They're brand new.

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On 9/21/2021 at 9:15 PM, py26129 said:

My guess:  Its about 20 years away :D

Yup. It has always been 20 years away and it will be 20 years away long after the worms make mincemeat of us all.

And of course, what about all the neutron-enriched high-level radioactive waste from the containment structures? Is nuclear waste from fusion suddenly no big deal? As far as I know, we are still not to energy break-even with fusion, and the nature of entropy itself may keep us from ever getting there. Fission allows a fast energy break-even because we are pulling energy from above the Nickle/Iron mass defect, it was energy put into those atoms by the universe itself. But fusion can't draw on the energy above the mass defect, and it seeks to run entropy in reverse.

Efficiency is the new fusion. Efficiency is the medicine we need. Fusion is ultimately just a slightly fuzzier version of fission, in my opinion.

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16 hours ago, RedTuna said:

Good summary of some of the issues regarding solar panels

Renewable Energy Paradox: Solar Panels and Their Toxic Waste

https://interestingengineering.com/renewable-energy-paradox-solar-panels-and-their-toxic-waste

 

The toxic waste from solar panels per unit of energy is small compared to what is needed to build batteries for electric vehicles like the Tesla.

Given the rapid expansion of rare earth mining in Africa which is destroying pristine forests and watersheds, I would guess that EVs are worse for the planet's health than a two-stroke engine.

 

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On 9/25/2021 at 4:29 PM, Left Shift said:

93,000,000 miles seems about right.  Or do you want that in kilometers?

It's a lot further in kilometers...:ph34r:

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10 minutes ago, mikewof said:

The toxic waste from solar panels per unit of energy is small compared to what is needed to build batteries for electric vehicles like the Tesla.

Given the rapid expansion of rare earth mining in Africa which is destroying pristine forests and watersheds, I would guess that EVs are worse for the planet's health than a two-stroke engine.

 

Yeah.  Cost benefit applies to everything.

Have you read about radioactive diamond batteries?  Vapor deposition like diamond cutting tools, but the carbon source  is from radioactive graphite (C-14) from decommissioned fission containment bricks.  Never need recharging.  But scalability?

https://interestingengineering.com/are-radioactive-diamond-batteries-the-solution-to-nuclear-waste

 

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8 minutes ago, RedTuna said:

Call me old fashioned, but it's even further in furlongs.

And it's outside the environment.  Of course, so is Africa.

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42 minutes ago, RedTuna said:

Yeah.  Cost benefit applies to everything.

Have you read about radioactive diamond batteries?  Vapor deposition like diamond cutting tools, but the carbon source  is from radioactive graphite (C-14) from decommissioned fission containment bricks.  Never need recharging.  But scalability?

https://interestingengineering.com/are-radioactive-diamond-batteries-the-solution-to-nuclear-waste

 

Very interesting. 

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On 9/26/2021 at 9:34 PM, JM1366 said:

If I had to guess, we're probably ~15 years from a functional concept, then probably another 15 years to a practical reactor.

Where things are different now, as opposed to 1990, is that we've got exponentially more computing power.

Asian countries have made great strides over the past two decades as well, and I think it's likely that you'll see a breakthrough before too long. But that said (and I work in this industry), for those who are banking on this as a climate change solution, we won't be fast enough for you. Fusion may be a long-term solution, but it's not going to be ready fast enough to solve the crisis we're currently facing. The brilliant engineers and physicists over in the nuclear fission field have a solution.

In any case, the development of fusion reactors is going to also pay off in less exciting ways. The medical industry is one area that will likely see a lot of benefits.

Imagine if all that funding, investigative effort and brilliance was directed at improving technologies like solar panel efficiency, wind turbine design or tidal current devices.  

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Very interesting. 

not really. a way to spread the radioactivity from the cooling pools to your phone? Yeah, doesn't sound like a great idea.

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Imagine if all that funding, investigative effort and brilliance was directed at improving technologies like solar panel efficiency, wind turbine design or tidal current devices.  

solar panel wind turbines

How about SUSTAINABILITY as a concept

no you scold those not buying into Global Warming as being TRUMP Caused and TAX Resolvable

while building on coast bluffs and river valleys and Farm Land

 

We're Sooooo Fucked !!!!!!!!!!!

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3 hours ago, DA-WOODY said:

solar panel wind turbines

How about SUSTAINABILITY as a concept

no you scold those not buying into Global Warming as being TRUMP Caused and TAX Resolvable

while building on coast bluffs and river valleys and Farm Land

 

We're Sooooo Fucked !!!!!!!!!!!

I can't disagree about your conclusion, but following the loops and twists of your logic is as hopeless as tracking a drunken, three-legged gerbil across an ice rink.

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