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Interview With Dick Beaumont (Kraken Boats)


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This is an interesting interview with Dick Beaumont, who went into boatbuilding to make a sailboat that was exactly to his liking, and wound up becoming a boatbuilding executive with the help of Kevin Dibley and the real unsung heroes in an Asian boatyard.  I'm not sure I agree with everything he says, it's clear he builds boats to 10/10ths of the maximum conceivable stress with a bit of margin built in.... but I don't have anywhere near enough experience or understanding of boat design to argue with him.  There is a lot of food for thought and even the stuff I disagree with makes me think.  It'd be interesting to hear what the assembled Anarchists think of his views.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNHCHp8yjcE

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On 9/23/2021 at 12:10 PM, Lex Teredo said:

There is a lot of food for thought

That is an understatement. Beaumont is an out-of-the-box thinker. Everything he presents is supported with facts and/or logic. An excellent watch.

The question is can at least some of his ideas be used by the lower cost manufacturers and have these become the "new" design/build paradigm for blue water cruisers (even coastal cruisers)? I'm fascinated by his bolt-less fin keel idea in particular.

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17 hours ago, DougH said:

That is an understatement. Beaumont is an out-of-the-box thinker. Everything he presents is supported with facts and/or logic. An excellent watch.

The question is can at least some of his ideas be used by the lower cost manufacturers and have these become the "new" design/build paradigm for blue water cruisers (even coastal cruisers)? I'm fascinated by his bolt-less fin keel idea in particular.

“Everything he presents is supported with facts and/or logic  opinions.”  . There, fixed that for you.

he has very strong views (or opinions) but many are slanted to suit the product he is trying to sell and you have to take them with a grain of salt. There is no one way to build something, there is no one way to design a boat as there is no one way to sail one. He builds maybe 5/10 boats a year which even in then boat building world is nothing and so his ideas and thinking are very biased towards his product and he ends up a little blinkered.

 

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2 hours ago, kof said:

he has very strong views (or opinions) but many are slanted to suit the product he is trying to sell

One should consider which came first: the Kraken sailboat or Beaumont's ideas on how they should be designed/built. I'm not saying he is right with every decision. Especially the cost factors.

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IMHO a good deal of the confusion about "Bluewater Sailing" is caused by the wide variation in how much risk one is willing to accept - as well as no universally accepted definition of what bluewater sailing actually is. Lotsa folks are out there doing major ocean crossings in small keelboats with spade rudders (and minimalist creature comforts). This gent has some strong opinions that will resonate with a good number of folks, but there are others who dream of foiling across the Atlantic, and just punching out the EPIRB if they're unlucky enough to hit a submerged container at 25+ knots. 

I've also seen a lot of folks spend years preparing their boats as if they're going on a circumnavigation, only to wind up not getting any further than George Town in the Bahamas, because doing it didn't match up to their vision of what it would be like. Teensy bit like the folks who bought Hummers to drive to the mall.

 

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Looks like yet another boring furniture wagon. Clever marketing: Scare your prospects about certain death then offer a solution. I’d guess his competition is luxury catamarans. Safety seeking sailors have a huge selection of less expensive older yachts to choose from. 
 

Is he correct in claiming that euro blue water yachts only need to survive force 8 weather to achieve certification?

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Marketing hype 

nothing “ Oceanic “ on his boat 

He fantasizes about collisions yet his boats have  fragile prop struts that can be pulled out by a fouled dyneema Genoa sheet 

his mast design transmits boom vang load to the mast .. oceanic boats dead end the vang to the deck structure, mast collar ,  to eliminate mast loading 

his hybrid cutter stay, solent  type  , is a poor substitute for a true running backstay opposed inner forstay 

 

CBD1C83E-DE23-41EA-846F-4A7EDAC95AB8.png

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1 minute ago, Borracho said:

Looks like yet another boring furniture wagon. Clever marketing: Scare your prospects about certain death then offer a solution. I’d guess his competition is luxury catamarans. Safety seeking sailors have a huge selection of less expensive older yachts to choose from. 
 

Is he correct in claiming that euro blue water yachts only need to survive force 8 weather to achieve certification?

I think it means area of operation 

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3 minutes ago, Borracho said:

Looks like yet another boring furniture wagon. Clever marketing: Scare your prospects about certain death then offer a solution. I’d guess his competition is luxury catamarans. Safety seeking sailors have a huge selection of less expensive older yachts to choose from. 
 

Is he correct in claiming that euro blue water yachts only need to survive force 8 weather to achieve certification?

"CE CLASS A yachts are designed for large sea voyages (everywhere), in which wind force may exceed 8 on the scale of BEAUFORT and waves can also exceed a significant height of 4 meters. These yachts are designed largely to be self-sufficient in this rather hostile environment."

So greater than... But CE is kind a joke. I did some CE certification for an Asian medical device MFG fresh out of college. CE = China Export is not too far off the mark. 

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Not nearly enough fuel for my taste. Ballast to Displacement not so robust and, as mentioned, prop strut way exposed. did watch the interview video of the designer and he has great observations and suggestions but misses the mark on other points. IMHO.

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13 hours ago, sugarbird said:

I've also seen a lot of folks spend years preparing their boats as if they're going on a circumnavigation, only to wind up not getting any further than George Town in the Bahamas, because doing it didn't match up to their vision of what it would be like. Teensy bit like the folks who bought Hummers to drive to the mall.

 

That was sort of my take....    But I haven't circumnavigated and am basically a coastal sailor so what do I know.  

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12 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Marketing hype 

nothing “ Oceanic “ on his boat 

He fantasizes about collisions yet his boats have  fragile prop struts that can be pulled out by a fouled dyneema Genoa sheet 

his mast design transmits boom vang load to the mast .. oceanic boats dead end the vang to the deck structure, mast collar ,  to eliminate mast loading 

his hybrid cutter stay, solent  type  , is a poor substitute for a true running backstay opposed inner forstay 

 

CBD1C83E-DE23-41EA-846F-4A7EDAC95AB8.png

The vang IS on the mast collar...

The rig is more a B&R type rig with no runners needed. I've sailed boats 3x the size of this using a Solent configuration, B&R rig with no runners.

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4 hours ago, charisma94 said:

The vang IS on the mast collar...

The rig is more a B&R type rig with no runners needed. I've sailed boats 3x the size of this using a Solent configuration, B&R rig with no runners.

 

Unless you have a different picture that kraken dead ends the vang on the mast , not to the deck 

As for your sailing experience ... this means you have sailed on many poorly conceived  boats that can’t tack the Genoa and can’t go upwind in 25kt true without changing the sail on the Solent stay or rolling  it into an upwind bag 

And i don’t care how far aft and how wide your spreader base is ...runners remove inertia  from the mast and keep  the spreader roots from constant cycling 

1CC4DC17-6CE5-4617-AC0A-D0196165B719.png

9D23FC69-41EF-4D9E-89D8-BF29F1A1BFDC.png

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I agree that a lot of current production boats are under-built for crossing oceans.

But I don't agree that a properly engineered and built external lead keel or a spade rudder is a disaster waiting to happen. For the rudder, just take the cost/material you used in making in a strong enough skeg and throw it into an an oversized rudder stock and beefier rudder (Steve Dashew approach).

Making a glass skeg strong enough to resist bending loads is hard. An embedded 12mm s.s. flat bar sounds good until you realize it doesn't have much depth (thickness) to resist bending sideways.

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25 minutes ago, Zonker said:

just take the cost/material you used in making in a strong enough skeg and throw it into an an oversized rudder stock and beefier rudder (Steve Dashew approach)…

Same with the encapsulated lead keel, right? That laminate skin significantly reduces the efficiency of the keel. Likely better to specify more hull structure and better bolting. 

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Fatter keel = slower.

If you added the weight and cost I think you're right too.

It is really hard to do good laminating inside a keel shell unless it is very fat. Lots of "drop in a layer of glass, use a roller on a pole and hope for the best" I suspect most of encapsulated keels were resin rich. Except when they were dry but you couldn't see how wet out the glass was because it was in a deep hole.

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15 hours ago, slug zitski said:

 

Unless you have a different picture that kraken dead ends the vang on the mast , not to the deck 

As for your sailing experience ... this means you have sailed on many poorly conceived  boats that can’t tack the Genoa and can’t go upwind in 25kt true without changing the sail on the Solent stay or rolling  it into an upwind bag 

And i don’t care how far aft and how wide your spreader base is ...runners remove inertia  from the mast and keep  the spreader roots from constant cycling 

1CC4DC17-6CE5-4617-AC0A-D0196165B719.png

9D23FC69-41EF-4D9E-89D8-BF29F1A1BFDC.png

Well, firstly I was looking at your first picture, where it's on the collar. You've now changed photo examples...

Second, I'll let Bruce Farr know his boats are poorly conceived. I'm talking about what was Mirrabella-C and Philanderer. MC sailed fine upwind in 25TWS using a 1/3 furled inner jib. And no charter type yacht that big tacks their genoa in the traditional sense. You'd get 10 tacks and the sail would be a throw-away...

Third, you're obviously too dim to understand a B&R rig and how the geometry and reverse diagonals work. Nor sailed on one... But that's OK, not many have.

Stick to your POS 2200 Jongert... I did some deliveries on Inspiration a hundred years ago... a slug and a motor sailor if ever there was one.

 

 

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My old Vega 27 had an encapsulated keel. I believe Albin moulded the hull in two halves and joined them, so pretty good wet-out in the keel laminates. I think there was too much tumblehome in the hull to just pop it out of the female mould in one piece, so that was another reason as well for the two pieces. The keel cavity was filled (if memory serves) one third full of lead, one third full of iron shot, and one third with a sand-resin mix to top and seal it all off. The full keel Vega isn't the fastest 27 footer but some of them have done a lot of bluewater sailing.

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Just to echo Zonker, by the time you’ve built a skeg that is fully self-supporting from all angles and capable of protecting the rudder from impact the damn thing is gonna be attached to the trailing edge of the keel. I think it was Bill Garden who noted that most skegs are supported by the rudders rather than vice versa. 

Look, if you want a go anywhere boat, the French build lots of them out of aluminum.  And their French skippers do, in fact, sail all over the planet in them.

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On 9/26/2021 at 4:48 PM, kof said:

“Everything he presents is supported with facts and/or logic  opinions.”  . There, fixed that for you.

he has very strong views (or opinions) but many are slanted to suit the product he is trying to sell and you have to take them with a grain of salt. There is no one way to build something, there is no one way to design a boat as there is no one way to sail one. He builds maybe 5/10 boats a year which even in then boat building world is nothing and so his ideas and thinking are very biased towards his product and he ends up a little blinkered.

 

Honestly he sounds like someone who works in sales with no engineering background trying to sell you an engineering product who is obsessed with buzz words and just hopes you don't know enough about engineering to see past that.

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On 9/29/2021 at 1:37 AM, darth reapius said:

Honestly he sounds like someone who works in sales with no engineering background trying to sell you an engineering product who is obsessed with buzz words and just hopes you don't know enough about engineering to see past that.

He certainly has the guys from Sailing Millennium Falcon mesmerized.

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On 9/29/2021 at 1:37 AM, darth reapius said:

Honestly he sounds like someone who works in sales with no engineering background trying to sell you an engineering product who is obsessed with buzz words and just hopes you don't know enough about engineering to see past that.

The full skeg rudder cracks me up 

what a dog ….the entire assembly is vulnerable to catastrophic strike damage and its unbalanced rudder blade offers poor steering performance 

a proper ocean going is a skeg hung , balanced rudder 

the short skeg with  top and bottom bearing , only supports the rudder shaft , , the rudder section below the bottom bearing ..the balanced lower section …with ts  blade forward of the rudder stock ,  has no SS shaft and is designed to break away after an object strike  , leaving you a half a blade plus intact rudder shaft and steering system 

don’t fool around with home designers ,snake oil salesman .. choose a pro designer 

6ABDC758-2A5C-440E-906E-D4817E8E80EB.png

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slug zitski ["don’t fool around with home designers ,snake oil salesman .. choose a pro designer"]

He didn't. He commissioned us (pro-designers] who worked with ex Prada/Team NZ engineer Peter Lawson to come up with the best solution based on the brief given. Some clients prefer Full Skeg; some Semi Skeg; and some No Skeg at all. It all comes down to the brief and if it is for a Full Skeg, then we are going to give him the best that can be done within that medium - and we did. She isn't balanced but she is light on the helm because we took the sail plan into account for best balance and tracking. 

Enough Said.......

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1 minute ago, Dibley said:

slug zitski ["don’t fool around with home designers ,snake oil salesman .. choose a pro designer"]

He didn't. He commissioned us (pro-designers] who worked with ex Prada/Team NZ engineer Peter Lawson to come up with the best solution based on the brief given. Some clients prefer Full Skeg; some Semi Skeg; and some No Skeg at all. It all comes down to the brief and if it is for a Full Skeg, then we are going to give him the best that can be done within that medium - and we did. She isn't balanced but she is light on the helm because we took the sail plan into account for best balance and tracking. 

Enough Said.......

He told the designer to design crap 

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On 9/26/2021 at 8:05 AM, Elegua said:

"CE CLASS A yachts are designed for large sea voyages (everywhere), in which wind force may exceed 8 on the scale of BEAUFORT and waves can also exceed a significant height of 4 meters. These yachts are designed largely to be self-sufficient in this rather hostile environment."

So greater than... But CE is kind a joke. I did some CE certification for an Asian medical device MFG fresh out of college. CE = China Export is not too far off the mark. 

There are two different CE's. One is the european CE (Conformité Européen) and the other is the Chinese CE (China Export). The logos are slightly different. https://www.qima.com/eu-compliance-requirements/ce-marking-vs-china-export

 

So sure, the Chinese CE is a joke. Is the European CE also a joke?

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Kraken really needs more advertisements.  Simple, basic and brief ad space that would be cheap.  I have never heard of these boats.  I remember seeing something and I thought Kevin Dibley was designing a new Tayana.   I suspect that the customer for the 58 and 66 also fly private.  My most recent rides on fractional private aircraft seemed to be more advertising about the benefits of fractional private air.   I don't think any of us wanted to own a 5 year old aluminum can afterwards.   "Corrosion Corner"  of aircraft that can't be flown was also pointed out.  Now I know about old aircraft and I like some metal boats especially those with guns on them but I really doubt Kraken potential customers want or need Aluminum.

Kraken Yachts Website

Rudder

Keel

They are trying to differentiate Kraken from the rest by emphasizing older design such as the rudder or mitigating issues found with newer build techniques. One example given is of computer cut plywood and how Kraken is different from other boats at the same price point.   Appears someone wrote down all the points made by old timers on Cruising Anarchy about what they did not like about new boats.  Then took that list to the designer and builder and said build this boat.  He even has a list of suggested older boats for those not in the market or without the Turkish Lira for one of his boats.  The list is exactly what I read here. 

Something happened such that production changed from China to Turkey.  That is a story I would want the details about.  Kraken did not have a boat at Annapolis or a booth.   That may not be bad news if the boats are all sold out and none available to export to North America.  After watching the videos and reading a bit the design is not a concern.   A owner who wants to go into the boat business is not new.  The problem in the past was whether the owner could deliver a boat.  If there was a Kraken built on spec available to be surveyed and the Turkish build checks out then this boat is the answer to the extensive complaints found right here.   

IMHO I think the big question for buyers is going to be if a new boat can be delivered and when.   What kind of guarantees that regardless of what happens to the Turkish builder or Dick Beaumont will their money be safe?  Who is at the yard supervising the build such that all of the points made by Dick Beaumont are carried out?  There are many points of both design and construction that if carried out correctly would justify buying a new boat. This may be a very good boat worth checking out...if it can be delivered. 

This really looks like the boat posters on CA have wanted.   Here it is....

Kraken 50 Review

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6 hours ago, mckenzie.keith said:

There are two different CE's. One is the european CE (Conformité Européen) and the other is the Chinese CE (China Export). The logos are slightly different. https://www.qima.com/eu-compliance-requirements/ce-marking-vs-china-export

 

So sure, the Chinese CE is a joke. Is the European CE also a joke?

We had a real CE certification, which was a joke, also all the ISO  certs, which sole purpose is to kill trees (back then when things were still paper). It wouldn’t surprise me in the least to see fake CE and ISO marks. China GMP? AUS TGA? Same. US 510K? Have multiple companies so if you go on auto detention you don’t need to stop shipping. 
 

Inspectors are lazy. Pack the stuff you know meets the standard  near the door. 

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5 hours ago, Kent H said:

Kraken really needs more advertisements.  Simple, basic and brief ad space that would be cheap.  I have never heard of these boats.  I remember seeing something and I thought Kevin Dibley was designing a new Tayana.   I suspect that the customer for the 58 and 66 also fly private.  My most recent rides on fractional private aircraft seemed to be more advertising about the benefits of fractional private air.   I don't think any of us wanted to own a 5 year old aluminum can afterwards.   "Corrosion Corner"  of aircraft that can't be flown was also pointed out.  Now I know about old aircraft and I like some metal boats especially those with guns on them but I really doubt Kraken potential customers want or need Aluminum.

Kraken Yachts Website

Rudder

Keel

They are trying to differentiate Kraken from the rest by emphasizing older design such as the rudder or mitigating issues found with newer build techniques. One example given is of computer cut plywood and how Kraken is different from other boats at the same price point.   Appears someone wrote down all the points made by old timers on Cruising Anarchy about what they did not like about new boats.  Then took that list to the designer and builder and said build this boat.  He even has a list of suggested older boats for those not in the market or without the Turkish Lira for one of his boats.  The list is exactly what I read here. 

Something happened such that production changed from China to Turkey.  That is a story I would want the details about.  Kraken did not have a boat at Annapolis or a booth.   That may not be bad news if the boats are all sold out and none available to export to North America.  After watching the videos and reading a bit the design is not a concern.   A owner who wants to go into the boat business is not new.  The problem in the past was whether the owner could deliver a boat.  If there was a Kraken built on spec available to be surveyed and the Turkish build checks out then this boat is the answer to the extensive complaints found right here.   

IMHO I think the big question for buyers is going to be if a new boat can be delivered and when.   What kind of guarantees that regardless of what happens to the Turkish builder or Dick Beaumont will their money be safe?  Who is at the yard supervising the build such that all of the points made by Dick Beaumont are carried out?  There are many points of both design and construction that if carried out correctly would justify buying a new boat. This may be a very good boat worth checking out...if it can be delivered. 

This really looks like the boat posters on CA have wanted.   Here it is....

Kraken 50 Review

According to the interview Beaumont basically did that - write down all sorts of notes over a few decades of cruising in larger Tayanas et al, and then find someone to design a custom build with all the notes taken into consideration. 

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11 hours ago, charisma94 said:

Says the knob that washes other people's boats for a living...

I'm not so sure. I've met a lot of boat owners and people who "wash boats" for a living. In my experience, many of the boat washers know a lot more about the boats than the owners. 

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On 9/27/2021 at 9:23 AM, Zonker said:

I agree that a lot of current production boats are under-built for crossing oceans.

But I don't agree that a properly engineered and built external lead keel or a spade rudder is a disaster waiting to happen. For the rudder, just take the cost/material you used in making in a strong enough skeg and throw it into an an oversized rudder stock and beefier rudder (Steve Dashew approach).

Making a glass skeg strong enough to resist bending loads is hard. An embedded 12mm s.s. flat bar sounds good until you realize it doesn't have much depth (thickness) to resist bending sideways.

friend of mine told me a (seemingly mild) swell dropped his stern down on a rock in his Tayana 47 - skeg punched up through the hull and started leaking.. Apparently she almost sank.

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On 10/20/2021 at 12:30 AM, Elegua said:

I'm not so sure. I've met a lot of boat owners and people who "wash boats" for a living. In my experience, many of the boat washers know a lot more about the boats than the owners. 

That's quite true. I've experienced the same.

Though a boat washer insisting a naval architect or engineer with pedigree that their design is "crap", inferring that he  knows better, makes me laugh. Shit, Sluggo told me a week or so ago that Bruce Farr didn't know how to design a rig...

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21 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

That's quite true. I've experienced the same.

Though a boat washer insisting a naval architect or engineer with pedigree that their design is "crap", inferring that he  knows better, makes me laugh. Shit, Sluggo told me a week or so ago that Bruce Farr didn't know how to design a rig...

Yeah, no....

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So he has a three-bearing rudderstock, and has given it a brand name as if that was some great innovation: https://www.krakenyachts.com/the-alpha-rudder

I will soon be taking orders for my Alpha™ tea mug.   It has a bunch of unique features, including a flat base to keep it upright when you put it down, and a handle for easy holding.  

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

So he has a three-bearing rudderstock, and has given it a brand name as if that was some great innovation: https://www.krakenyachts.com/the-alpha-rudder

I will soon be taking orders for my Alpha™ tea mug.   It has a bunch of unique features, including a flat base to keep it upright when you put it down, and a handle for easy holding.  

No balance to that ALPHA rudder.

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