Jump to content

Canoe burnouts: how to prevent?


Recommended Posts

So I picked up a Kevlar rowing canoe the other day, the last owner had a stroke but apparently he took it to Alaska and back solo. I assume he used the front rowing station as that one is set up for sliding seat, but whenever I row in any wind at all, the stern wants to drift like a teenager with a cheap car. Any suggestions to keep it more stable? I've already got 2 25l Jerry cans filled in the rear rowing station. 20210926_162052.thumb.jpg.bee35782107bca8c3aa20c60e4c7892a.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

The main problem that I see is that it's capsized, and the dock is holding it up in a sideways rain storm.

The other problem is that it's not really a canoe.

 The third problem is that it's Kevlar instead of Cedar and Spruce, and canvas.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have a try at some weight redistribution! It'll probably look like even more weight in the stern honestly. Would a small rudder fixed straight fore and aft make a difference? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

I'll have a try at some weight redistribution! It'll probably look like even more weight in the stern honestly. Would a small rudder fixed straight fore and aft make a difference? 

A 5 hp Honda 4 stroke might help more....

 That thing looks like a very heavy hole in the water.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BOKSAROX said:

If you row it, it's not a canoe.  Get a sliding seat installed in the aft station, then get your girlfriend to row bow.

Backwards. Get your g/f to row the aft station, that way you can relax and watch her as she's pumping those 14' spoon oars. When she looks over her shoulder to see if you're rowing just take a few strokes and then ease off again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vaeredil said:

I'll have a try at some weight redistribution! It'll probably look like even more weight in the stern honestly. Would a small rudder fixed straight fore and aft make a difference? 

Single sculls can carry a small surf board fin in the stern bottom area to help in straight line tracking. You could try a sailing canoe tip up rudder they are fixed with pintails and gudgeons to the stern and have lines on a cross bar to move them. Or a smaller rudder set up like double or 8 rowing shell using a kayak rudder set up. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a pic that somewhat shows a tracking rudder on a kayak, it's a simple up and down setup where the lifting line goes to a small fairlead v-cleat. The "rudder" itself is a shaped flat sheet of aluminum.

If you're handy enough you should be able to build something similar for the canoe.

95250074_614.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

As an avid paddler and paddling instructor, there is no way you are going to get that boat to "trim out". You are using it in a way that it was never designed to be used. Your only option is an actual rudder on the stern.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

don't roll the joint too tight...

Best advice yet. Remember to crimp the ends before you start working the roll-up. Don't lick too soon.

But seriously... well, actually, the above was pretty serious except i don't think anybody actually rolls joints any more... fore and aft weight distribution is critical in small craft. It sounds like you're trying to go with the bow digging in and the stern just flitting around at random. Not a recipe for happiness. You've got to get the weight centered.

Also consider putting it up on sawhorses, upside-down, and build up the skeg a little. Not too much as it will add drag and you do want to be able to steer. A nice sharp square bottom edge for the last few inches will do as much to hold her on course as going 3 or 4 inches deeper with a rounded edge. Or as Bored Broker says above, mount an actual rudder.

FB- Doug

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

My SUP has these little bolt-on fins. Might be more approachable than glassing on a skeg. I do like the idea of something bolted on the transom, so can be removed when desired.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Zonker said:

I'd try moving the jerry jugs all the way aft. If that does not work add a skeg as well

 

Or put a foot operated rudder on the stern, like some kayaks have...

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a possibility, but if the boat is inherently unstable it won't be any fun to row. 

Think of a fin keel + spade rudder sailboat moving in reverse. It is inherently unstable. You can steer it in a straight line, but it requires constant rudder corrections.

A skeg can change the stability of the vessel to have positive stability. Having it bow down means it's bow steering and unstable as well.

A skeg is much easier to fit as a test to see if you can make it stable.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting craft.  Please post more pics.

Looking at recreational shells for myself.  Generally there are two types, some have a full length keel and I presume the track like a freight train.  Others have a more rounded hull with a skeg for directional stability.  My presumption is that a skeg version requires / rewards more balanced (left vs right) technique than a long keel style.  

Are there any fittings on the bottom for a skeg you didn't receive?  

Have you tried rowing in the aft station, gear forward?  Is the MFG still around to support with advice?   

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Had a 17 foot Aquaterra plastic touring kayak with a rudder. Worked awesome but……I think it depends on what use you think you want. “Steering” was done with foot pedals. A sliding rowing seat would seem to prohibit that. If you just want to improve straight tracking a fixed skeg or rudder or both is your solution. As someone said, not sure how deep is too deep such that it will overly resist a turn you want to make. I think I’d choose two shallow ones - midship and stern - over a big deep one in either location.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The canoe (scull?) is apparently a custom interior but an otherwise standard clipper macsport 18, here's a profile. I'll take more pictures later today of mine, it's blowing a gale and pouring at the moment!

No skeg fittings or anything like that, but close inspection of the stern shows a few holes in the transom, there must have been a rudder originally. I think I'd rather have too much tracking ability than too little, in general. 

mac-sport-18-side__76675.1586898174.thumb.png.865da27881bcf75ca40ae5248205944d.png

 

I'll have a go at sitting in the rear position later today if the weather calms down and moving the water ballast to the front. Thanks to everyone for the advice so far!

Any tips about adding a skeg, do people usually bolt one on or glass it in? 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, tracking rudder is what is needed, you'll be steering with the oars. Even though they're a pretty straight forward setup, installing a steering rudder setup is just overkill and added weight.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vaeredil said:

The canoe (scull?) is apparently a custom interior but an otherwise standard clipper macsport 18, here's a profile. I'll take more pictures later today of mine, it's blowing a gale and pouring at the moment!

No skeg fittings or anything like that, but close inspection of the stern shows a few holes in the transom, there must have been a rudder originally. I think I'd rather have too much tracking ability than too little, in general. 

mac-sport-18-side__76675.1586898174.thumb.png.865da27881bcf75ca40ae5248205944d.png

 

I'll have a go at sitting in the rear position later today if the weather calms down and moving the water ballast to the front. Thanks to everyone for the advice so far!

Any tips about adding a skeg, do people usually bolt one on or glass it in? 

 

 

I will say that when I was a lad, we had an old fiberglass canoe on an inland lake. Normally, if I was alone, I'd have to paddle (1 paddle, forwards) from amidships as the bow would lift and blow downwind. But when the breeze came up at all, I'd have to do what you're talking about, sit in the back, add weight forward. It really was designed for 2.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

When paddling a properly built, well designed, and balanced canoe solo, one sits in the fwd position facing aft. with any gear stowed amidships. (Hence the properly designed/ built balanced thing) When one is two, IE: two people, one sits in the aft and provides some thrust, but mostly steering, while the person in the fwd position is the power stroke. Most gear is stowed amid ships, except for a small "ditch bag" stowed just in front of the bow man.... Just in case..... (Lake paddling) River paddling the bowman is not only the main source of power, but also the main source of steering, the stern man gives some thrust to get the stern to follow, but is mostly a rudder following the bowman's side sweeps.

 The stern man is almost always on one side exclusively, while in white water, or even swift current the bow man has to switch side to pull the bow where he wants it to go.

Sometimes the current is contradictory to common sense, which is why it's always good to watch a flow before you go.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

When paddling a properly built, well designed, and balanced canoe solo, one sits in the fwd position facing aft. with any gear stowed amidships. (Hence the properly designed/ built balanced thing) When one is two, IE: two people, one sits in the aft and provides some thrust, but mostly steering, while the person in the fwd position is the power stroke. Most gear is stowed amid ships, except for a small "ditch bag" stowed just in front of the bow man.... Just in case..... (Lake paddling) River paddling the bowman is not only the main source of power, but also the main source of steering, the stern man gives some thrust to get the stern to follow, but is mostly a rudder following the bowman's side sweeps.

 The stern man is almost always on one side exclusively, while in white water, or even swift current the bow man has to switch side to pull the bow where he wants it to go.

Sometimes the current is contradictory to common sense, which is why it's always good to watch a flow before you go.

I always loaded forward and sat as far back as required to trim the boat properly as long as it was aft of midships. If not then I'm most of the way (@3/4) in the back and the load moves aft to trim the boat as required. But we're talking a classic canoe here....many years ago....and without seats. I kneel on a pad and sat back on my butt/haunches. In this case to paddle straight the "J" stroke is your friend. With two people its lightest in the front, the big one in the back and the load where ever the boat is trimmed. Paddled many miles that way (and a few portages I don't want to talk about.........I hate deer flies....hate......).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate all the advice! We are talking about a square stern canoe, set up for rowing with oars here, though. Not the paddling style usually used. Maybe I should be calling this a rowing scull, like a poster above mentioned! 

I will definitely have a go rowing from the stern and adding weight forward to keep the bow down, though, and investigate a small tracking rudder.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Vaeredil said:

I appreciate all the advice! We are talking about a square stern canoe, set up for rowing with oars here, though. Not the paddling style usually used. Maybe I should be calling this a rowing scull, like a poster above mentioned! 

I will definitely have a go rowing from the stern and adding weight forward to keep the bow down, though, and investigate a small tracking rudder.

Yeah..........we got off course. We always do........

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Vaeredil said:

I mean, thread drift is practically a requirement here :D

I thought that drift was what we were trying to solve.....

Link to post
Share on other sites

image.jpeg.57c313c4e9cfe5d9a2536febe7421f12.jpeg

 A square sterned Peterborough Freighter canoe.

 Peterborough canoes were/are the best paddling/portaging canoe I ever experienced (Never tried to portage a 25' Freighter). Next came Chestnut. I know several others that are more or less equal to the Chestnut (Like pre WW2 Old Towns), but between weight, and balance, nothing compared to a Peterborough.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Point Break said:

Had a 17 foot Aquaterra plastic touring kayak with a rudder. Worked awesome but……I think it depends on what use you think you want. “Steering” was done with foot pedals. A sliding rowing seat would seem to prohibit that. If you just want to improve straight tracking a fixed skeg or rudder or both is your solution. As someone said, not sure how deep is too deep such that it will overly resist a turn you want to make. I think I’d choose two shallow ones - midship and stern - over a big deep one in either location.

Actually straight (coxless) pairs and fours are steered from the bow rowing seat by foot controlled rudders.  the rudder is only turned while the oars are in the water.  While the boat is running out during the return the rudder is at midships for drag reduction.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see with your boat but some recreational sculls are set up so you can mount the siding seat in the middle if you are solo or one forward/one aft if you are two rowers.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Vaeredil said:

The canoe (scull?) is apparently a custom interior but an otherwise standard clipper macsport 18, here's a profile. I'll take more pictures later today of mine, it's blowing a gale and pouring at the moment!

No skeg fittings or anything like that, but close inspection of the stern shows a few holes in the transom, there must have been a rudder originally. I think I'd rather have too much tracking ability than too little, in general. 

mac-sport-18-side__76675.1586898174.thumb.png.865da27881bcf75ca40ae5248205944d.png

 

I'll have a go at sitting in the rear position later today if the weather calms down and moving the water ballast to the front. Thanks to everyone for the advice so far!

Any tips about adding a skeg, do people usually bolt one on or glass it in? 

 

 

 

The engineering team drained a Modelo and after running the design through the beer goggle engineering system, we firmly feel that it is not the stern that is wondering, but the bow.  She has a slightly "turned up nose".

 

As to rudders, I have done a few thousand miles racing WaterTribe and many more training.  IMHO, if you feel the need for a rudder do it.  But it does not offset a good stroke.  I am a huge fan of  Prijon foot pegs (see below).  I had them in Abenhouse NorthWest Discover and my Kruger.  Unlike the airplane style foot pedals, these 'motorcycle shifter' type pedals give a solid, equal brace no matter what the rudder position.

 

 

https://topkayaker.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1133 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

That's a long way from Nanaimo.

ok, I know Waterloo Brewing is an Ontario thing, and the OP is from Ontario, But if you want a west side solution you can get Rickards Red out that way.......... swap that in, its not as good, but its still good.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, basketcase said:

ok, I know Waterloo Brewing is an Ontario thing, and the OP is from Ontario, But if you want a west side solution you can get Rickards Red out that way.......... swap that in, its not as good, but its still good.

The OP is currently in BC. We have lots of good homebrew without going to Ricky Red.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Ncik said:

Fold some alloy and bolt onto transom.

image.thumb.png.ada2c29b59772f5a2b73364952010f50.png


Please let the engineering staff know that if it extends below the hull, it needs to kick up to go over submerged debris.   
 

Personally, I like it behind the hull so there is less drag.  Also paint it flat black- if you get anywhere near sharks, you will find out why.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Snore said:


Please let the engineering staff know that if it extends below the hull, it needs to kick up to go over submerged debris.   
 

Personally, I like it behind the hull so there is less drag.  Also paint it flat black- if you get anywhere near sharks, you will find out why.

This is one of our sharks. I doubt it would make a lot of difference to that canoe.

jyKh8jd.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Snore said:


Please let the engineering staff know that if it extends below the hull, it needs to kick up to go over submerged debris.   
 

Personally, I like it behind the hull so there is less drag.  Also paint it flat black- if you get anywhere near sharks, you will find out why.

+1

But it is being used as a rowing boat, so I assumed it was predominantly operating in deeper water with careful landing onshore.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...