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What a clusterfuck this is. Kiwis have taken all the shitty bits of Larry's vision and added pure incompetence to the mix.

We’re an autonomous collective.    (We’re still doing Monty Python, right?)

Something like this: NYYC after begging back AM wins AC37. Terry H. attributes the victory to the innovative use of Cross-Fit-clors, who were a bunch of meatheads from a New Jersey gym. Rather th

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Don't expect a Venue together with the Protocol on November 17th! The Protocol though may give us a clue when they will announce the Venue.

I am actually resigned to the fact that we will likely won't know the Venue until next year given what Grant Dalton said recently. He mentioned that Valencia (after Alinghi won in 2003) took almost a year to be confirmed and Bermuda 2017 took 15 months to be confirmed as Venue after OTUSA defended in 2013.

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5 minutes ago, sailman said:

What if a Team doesn’t want to spend budget on an AC40?  It has zero to do with the AC racing. 

Well it does have to do with the youth and womens AC as that's what they wlll race, but I take your point. I do wonder what GD/TNZ will be getting as commission/profit/rights for the AC 40s and whether that therefore is part of the motivation. Would definitely be interesting to know

Does also raise the high potential that there could be more entrants to the women's AC than the men

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13 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well it does have to do with the youth and womens AC as that's what they wlll race, but I take your point. I do wonder what GD/TNZ will be getting as commission/profit/rights for the AC 40s and whether that therefore is part of the motivation. Would definitely be interesting to know

Does also raise the high potential that there could be more entrants to the women's AC than the men

It will be interesting to see if yacht clubs w/out a AC entry will fund a women's AC team....then we can have all the "equal pay" rhetoric come out of the talking heads.

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well it does have to do with the youth and womens AC as that's what they wlll race, but I take your point. I do wonder what GD/TNZ will be getting as commission/profit/rights for the AC 40s and whether that therefore is part of the motivation. Would definitely be interesting to know

Built in NZ, utilizing tnz's new (from last cycle ) yard, tnz's personnel. Nothing but gains for team and country. Who knows, after the document drops it may be used as the last leverage needed with the Gov. $$$$$ in tax pretty easy to quantify.

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3 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

That, and a hugely increased  sponsor value from increased exposure and goodwill, for all the teams, including any potential new challenger.

Win-win for all.

 

 

I trend to agree with you here!

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4 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Well it does have to do with the youth and womens AC as that's what they wlll race, but I take your point. I do wonder what GD/TNZ will be getting as commission/profit/rights for the AC 40s and whether that therefore is part of the motivation. Would definitely be interesting to know

Does also raise the high potential that there could be more entrants to the women's AC than the men

Sounds like the AC40's will also be used (by men too) on some kind of ACWS circuit, which could entice some wannabe teams that may or may not get to actually building AC75s.

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On 9/28/2021 at 10:34 AM, Stingray~ said:

Sounds like the AC40's will also be used (by men too) on some kind of ACWS circuit, which could entice some wannabe teams that may or may not get to actually building AC75s.

I'm picking the AC40 will be what we see the most of. With the youth, women's, and likely the ACWS using them, I would expect the bigger teams to run 2 of them, and why not, it's two boat testing at it's best. Early learnings can be incorporated in the AC75 hull design, and any further learnings, especially round foils and sails can be incorporated into the AC75 later on.

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1 hour ago, ChairborneRanger said:

I'm picking the AC40 will be what we see the most of. With the youth, women's, and likely the ACWS using them, I would expect the bigger teams to run 2 of them, and why not, it's two boat testing at it's best. Early learnings can be incorporated in the AC75 hull design, and any further learnings, especially round foils and sails can be incorporated into the AC75 later on.

Agree, very possible. Both LR and BOR ran two AC45's each in the AC34 ACWS, this time most teams may ship just one around each and use the other for foil and rig designs as you say. Could be better than building 'mules' and such. 

Will be interesting to see how much OD they will need to be for ACWS events, could be fun if some competitive variability is allowed. 

They could be a touch pricey but since I'm not paying the bills I'm in favor of the AC40's. :)

 

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9 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

Agree, very possible. Both LR and BOR ran two AC45's each in the AC34 ACWS, this time most teams may ship just one around each and use the other for foil and rig designs as you say. Could be better than building 'mules' and such. 

Will be interesting to see how much OD they will need to be for ACWS events, could be fun if some competitive variability is allowed. 

They could be a touch pricey but since I'm not paying the bills I'm in favor of the AC40's. :)

 

“A touch pricey?” Plus, you want to open them up to development?

That’s a great way to reduce the cost of an AC campaign. (Sarcasm font, in case it wasn’t obvious.)

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One thing that will be very interesting is what foil development & testing the protocol will allow

Will they will allow non-OD foils to be tested or even used in racing on the AC40s?

How many foils will they allow for the AC75?

Given NZ budget constraints (and the fact that they had the best at AC36 one would assume that they would want to keep it to no and very few.

I wonder if Ineos has tank tested some already before the protocol and limits come into effect. I would also expect the Mercedes tie up to include a lot of simulation. Whilst the models would be different from F1 because of the speed & viscosity differences etc, the expertise will be much the same so I would expect them to take a leap forward.

ETA for 4's benefit: I hope Ineos do stake a big step forward with Mercedes because I am British and support the Ineos GB team. I did cheer for them last time, and will cheer for them in AC 37. Clear enough?

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52 minutes ago, accnick said:

“A touch pricey?” Plus, you want to open them up to development?

That’s a great way to reduce the cost of an AC campaign. (Sarcasm font, in case it wasn’t obvious.)

The point clearly being missed is that economics has two sides. It isn't about costs at all, it is about affordability.

The inclusion of a class of boat that brings in two more separate demographic groups, namely women exclusively and youth below a certain age. This is an initiative ETNZ, RNZYS and CSI started in advance of AC36 with the Youth America's Cup which was unfortunately kyboshed by COVID and the New Zealand shutdown.

Before COVID crushed the event there were 18 entries for the Youth AC, that's 500% plus of the main event, many from countries or clubs (obviously) with no team in the main event 

Bringing a class into the mix that is attractive to two distinct AND NEW demographic groups dramatically increases the sponsorship opportunities for the various teams sponsorship sales force to target. 

Broadening the appeal to the other 50% of the world's population with a bonus of the sailing world's youth is not such a dumb ass move as many appear to think.

One only has to walk into virtually any mall in the world to see that, for example, retail outlets specifically targeting women dramatically outnumber those which target men whether it is clothing, cosmetics, jewellery and even much of the household goods (if not most) are selected by the lady of the house, not the man.

We might even see a change in the balance of female staff members (sales people and directors) actually hunting the sponsors. That wouldn't be difficult considering they are currently conspicuous by their absence.

All we need are teams with the imagination or vision to see (and understand) the new opportunities for funding that the new boat brings to the mix

It isn't an entirely new initiative, the VOR have had female teams before, SCA being the latest and they got huge attention at the stopovers, the 2 female crew members on each boat in the last event and the upcoming Ocean Race, whenever that is cleared to go has the VO65 as the youth and development class so it's not only ETNZ that seems to think involving female and youth sailors in the event and doing so in a class specific to those two groups.

I am sure not everyone will agree with the above but in the real world expanding one's market is a standard way to increase revenue potential. 

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10 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

The point clearly being missed is that economics has two sides. It isn't about costs at all, it is about affordability.

The inclusion of a class of boat that brings in two more separate demographic groups, namely women exclusively and youth below a certain age. This is an initiative ETNZ, RNZYS and CSI started in advance of AC36 with the Youth America's Cup which was unfortunately kyboshed by COVID and the New Zealand shutdown.

Before COVID crushed the event there were 18 entries for the Youth AC, that's 500% plus of the main event, many from countries or clubs (obviously) with no team in the main event 

Bringing a class into the mix that is attractive to two distinct AND NEW demographic groups dramatically increases the sponsorship opportunities for the various teams sponsorship sales force to target. 

Broadening the appeal to the other 50% of the world's population with a bonus of the sailing world's youth is not such a dumb ass move as many appear to think.

One only has to walk into virtually any mall in the world to see that, for example, retail outlets specifically targeting women dramatically outnumber those which target men whether it is clothing, cosmetics, jewellery and even much of the household goods (if not most) are selected by the lady of the house, not the man.

We might even see a change in the balance of female staff members (sales people and directors) actually hunting the sponsors. That wouldn't be difficult considering they are currently conspicuous by their absence.

All we need are teams with the imagination or vision to see (and understand) the new opportunities for funding that the new boat brings to the mix

It isn't an entirely new initiative, the VOR have had female teams before, SCA being the latest and they got huge attention at the stopovers, the 2 female crew members on each boat in the last event and the upcoming Ocean Race, whenever that is cleared to go has the VO65 as the youth and development class so it's not only ETNZ that seems to think involving female and youth sailors in the event and doing so in a class specific to those two groups.

I am sure not everyone will agree with the above but in the real world expanding one's market is a standard way to increase revenue potential. 

I hope you are right. At a time when at least one key AC team seems to be struggling financially, the question is how easy it will be to open the money spigot for this expanded AC-related event.

The whole concept is appealing, but it also had a lot in common with the SailGP approach, which still depends for survival on the financial largess of a single individual, at least to this point.

it is very expensive to run events of this type. Ask Russell Coutts.

 

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

I heard they will feature a "from the cellar"segment highlighting the goss of the day from SA.

A kind of a TE show then, narrated by Spinray.

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

One piece of the puzzle

America's Cup teams forced to open doors

Although the term reality show is cringeworthy, behind the scenes will be fascinating. Probably modeled after the huge interest on this very forum, I heard they will feature a "from the cellar"segment highlighting the goss of the day from SA.

Yes, but it's called "from the gutter"

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1 hour ago, barfy said:

One piece of the puzzle

America's Cup teams forced to open doors

Although the term reality show is cringeworthy, behind the scenes will be fascinating. Probably modeled after the huge interest on this very forum, I heard they will feature a "from the cellar"segment highlighting the goss of the day from SA.

The huge interest from this place will add 13 people. As for the goss of the day, might need to either have psychiatric help available for the person making the comment or a big bleep button.

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FWIW,

Tom Ehman says AC37 Protocol Announcement might come from the Royal Yacht Squadron in Cowes this Wednesday, Nov 17th - AND surprisingly not from Auckland.

In a way this would make sense given that Auckland is still under "Semi-Lockdown".

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1 hour ago, dg_sailingfan said:

FWIW,

Tom Ehman says AC37 Protocol Announcement might come from the Royal Yacht Squadron in Cowes this Wednesday, Nov 17th - AND surprisingly not from Auckland.

In a way this would make sense given that Auckland is still under "Semi-Lockdown".

Would also divert attention away from Auckland when the announcement doesn't include a venue, date or design rule

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1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Would also divert attention away from Auckland when the announcement doesn't include a venue, date or design rule

Class rule is always separate to protocol

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On 11/15/2021 at 8:25 AM, dg_sailingfan said:

FWIW,

Tom Ehman says AC37 Protocol Announcement might come from the Royal Yacht Squadron in Cowes this Wednesday, Nov 17th - AND surprisingly not from Auckland.

In a way this would make sense given that Auckland is still under "Semi-Lockdown".

Maybe Cowes bunged Dalton some cash to host the announcement. :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Why? Was Jacinda announcing it?

If it is bad news she will be far away. If it is another announcement of a coming announcement, she would be front and centre.

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On 9/30/2021 at 9:22 AM, accnick said:

I hope you are right. At a time when at least one key AC team seems to be struggling financially, the question is how easy it will be to open the money spigot for this expanded AC-related event.

The whole concept is appealing, but it also had a lot in common with the SailGP approach, which still depends for survival on the financial largess of a single individual, at least to this point.

it is very expensive to run events of this type. Ask Russell Coutts.

 

It is appealing. I don’t follow this stuff all too closely but IIRC the plan was to build 7 of the AC9Fs, all in NZ with funding from China, and swap them between the competing teams. I recall not understanding how they would train on the boat but it was similar to other classes. Is the plan here to do the same with the AC40, or to get the teams to buy the boat? The AC40 has got to be multiple seven figures. How many youth teams are really going to buy a multimillion dollar boat and fund the operations of it, vs competing in an existing class? Especially after the AC9F getting scuttled and the AC in general being an unpredictable shitshow?

A women's competition I could see teams getting sponsor funding. But IMHO the optics suck. Dalton basically saying the women have to compete on a little all electric boat. This is the 21st century. It’s asinine. If I was a female match racing competitor I think I would call bullshit on this. 

AC9F and AC40 seem to me less about diversity and more about Dalton et al building an ancillary boat building business.

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11 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

It is appealing. I don’t follow this stuff all too closely but IIRC the plan was to build 7 of the AC9Fs, all in NZ with funding from China, and swap them between the competing teams. I recall not understanding how they would train on the boat but it was similar to other classes. Is the plan here to do the same with the AC40, or to get the teams to buy the boat? The AC40 has got to be multiple seven figures. How many youth teams are really going to buy a multimillion dollar boat and fund the operations of it, vs competing in an existing class? Especially after the AC9F getting scuttled and the AC in general being an unpredictable shitshow?

A women's competition I could see teams getting sponsor funding. But IMHO the optics suck. Dalton basically saying the women have to compete on a little all electric boat. This is the 21st century. It’s asinine. If I was a female match racing competitor I think I would call bullshit on this. 

AC9F and AC40 seem to me less about diversity and more about Dalton et al building an ancillary boat building business.

The earlier statements said they expect teams to buy the boat.

I think he is trying to get a cut from the sail of the AC40s somehow. Whether that is licensing the design or building them I don't know. 

I agree with the rest

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SGP has teams with no money and an organiser/backer with money to burn. The spin-off AC37 classes are in exactly the opposite situation. It's not the same at all.

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13 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

SGP has teams with no money and an organiser/backer with money to burn. The spin-off AC37 classes are in exactly the opposite situation. It's not the same at all.

Not the same in funding, but in terms of audience they are competing for they are the same.

Though sometimes competing events can raise audiences for each other

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Are they? We are talking about SGP versus the AC37 spin-off classes. You think the same audience for (arguably) the best sailors in the is also likely to watch youth and women's teams?

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7 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Are they? We are talking about SGP versus the AC37 spin-off classes. You think the same audience for (arguably) the best sailors in the is also likely to watch youth and women's teams?

But the spin-off class is also allegedly going have a men's series before the Ac37 proper. I would assume they would run all 3 at the same venues and dates (the logistics being ridiculous otherwise). So yes, I do think they will compete.

And in any case who watches youth rugby? Pretty much a subset of those who watch men's rugby

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36 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Are they? We are talking about SGP versus the AC37 spin-off classes. You think the same audience for (arguably) the best sailors in the is also likely to watch youth and women's teams?

What evidence is there that there will be interest on the part of top female sailors in being relegated to a “chick boat” that was also designed for children? I expect the response will be something along the lines of “fuck you, Grant.”

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Well, the protocol might say teams have to provide a women's team, in which case those top women might take the cash from the teams. Don't know but would not surprise me.

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Just now, dogwatch said:

Well, the protocol might say teams have to provide a women's team, in which case those top women might take the cash from the teams. Don't know but would not surprise me.

I'm not sure. Its not like there are so much other long term paid race sailing roles. They may take the roles and hope to make it more equal from within

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43 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Lot of comments on the AC protocol page seem to be Kiwis against taking it offshore

https://www.facebook.com/AmericasCup/photos/a.2125912284353898/3143347009277082/?type=3

Odd because I'm sure I remember someone saying all Kiwis just cared about winning and they wouldn't care

Who gives a fuck? Its FB, they probably don't know the bow from the stern.

 

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24 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

What evidence is there that there will be interest on the part of top female sailors in being relegated to a “chick boat” that was also designed for children? I expect the response will be something along the lines of “fuck you, Grant.”

Exactly.  The top female sailors in the world will not want to race in a dumbed down boat.  It infers they are not capable of sailing the real boat.  None of those sailors got to where they are by shying away from competition or doubting their abilities.

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28 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

What evidence is there that there will be interest on the part of top female sailors in being relegated to a “chick boat” that was also designed for children? I expect the response will be something along the lines of “fuck you, Grant.”

https://www.sail-world.com/news/241672/Womens-Americas-Cup-is-mind-blowing-Mills

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1 minute ago, The_Alchemist said:

Exactly.  The top female sailors in the world will not want to race in a dumbed down boat.  It infers they are not capable of sailing the real boat.  None of those sailors got to where they are by shying away from competition or doubting their abilities.

https://www.sail-world.com/news/241672/Womens-Americas-Cup-is-mind-blowing-Mills

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16 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Well, the protocol might say teams have to provide a women's team, in which case those top women might take the cash from the teams. Don't know but would not surprise me.

So a fckg dog and pony show?  This is supposed to help?

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9 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Exactly.  The top female sailors in the world will not want to race in a dumbed down boat.  

So in your opinion they will be saying "Begone, do not tarnish me with your filthy six figure multi-year contract"? As there are so many other better options for professional female sailors.

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15 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

So a fckg dog and pony show?  This is supposed to help?

"Help", yes. Help TNZ's finances by making other teams buy their training-wheel boats.

 

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23 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Exactly.  The top female sailors in the world will not want to race in a dumbed down boat. 

They're already sailing one dumbed down boat in SailGP.

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59 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

It is appealing. I don’t follow this stuff all too closely but IIRC the plan was to build 7 of the AC9Fs, all in NZ with funding from China, and swap them between the competing teams. I recall not understanding how they would train on the boat but it was similar to other classes. Is the plan here to do the same with the AC40, or to get the teams to buy the boat? The AC40 has got to be multiple seven figures. How many youth teams are really going to buy a multimillion dollar boat and fund the operations of it, vs competing in an existing class? Especially after the AC9F getting scuttled and the AC in general being an unpredictable shitshow?

A women's competition I could see teams getting sponsor funding. But IMHO the optics suck. Dalton basically saying the women have to compete on a little all electric boat. This is the 21st century. It’s asinine. If I was a female match racing competitor I think I would call bullshit on this. 

AC9F and AC40 seem to me less about diversity and more about Dalton et al building an ancillary boat building business.

AC9F and AC40 seem to me less about diversity and more about Dalton et al building an ancillary boat building business.”

^^^^^This^^^^^^. You can put good money on Dalton getting a piece of each boat sold and probably those regattas as well.  He’s has basically taken the business model of organized crime and applied it to the AC

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42 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

All she says is, "It's a bit mind-blowing, but I think it's exactly where the sport needs to go," the British sailing star told the Times (UK).

We will see, but I don’t see why they would opt for this, it’s a joke.

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6 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

Is there a link yet?

And is the presser being broadcast live at the top of the hour at some link? 

Page 28 - These potentially required $2M hydrogen powered support vessels in the protocol is a load of hydrogen poop.  They serve no purpose other than to drive up the cost of the event. They will only be good for bringing a cup of tea and bread & butter to the sailors during tea-time

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3 minutes ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Page 28 - These potentially required $2M hydrogen powered support vessels in the protocol is a load of hydrogen poop.  They serve no purpose other than to drive up the cost of the event. They will only be good for bringing a cup of tea and bread & butter to the sailors during tea-time

They are required to be 10M length, right?

I actually like the hydropower idea. 

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2 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

That’s a bit odd, specifying a crew number for the support boats. 

a range of 75nm at an average speed of 25 knots

top speed of 50 knots

length 10M

capacity of 6 people including the driver plus 250 kg of additional payload (tea and crumpets)

each team entitled to purchase 2 at NZ$2M each through ACE

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Just now, Chobani Sailor said:

No specific wording on power by hands so cyclists are back.

Dammit, hate the look of cyclists. Casual viewers naturally assume it’s adding boat propulsion. 

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1 minute ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Protocol is definitely written in a way to help and protect Cork.  Teams need to be in the venue by June 2023 or will not be able to sail any of their vessels. 

The March 31 date does align with Cork’s ‘6 months to decide’ timeline, yes. 

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1 minute ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Protocol is definitely written in a way to help and protect Cork.  Teams need to be in the venue by June 2023 or will not be able to sail any of their vessels. 

It’s interesting, I didn’t think it did. With weight reductions, less crew etc and further design for light airs it’s the Med/Middle East for me. Cork just doesn’t add up. 
 

As for the rest of it. I like the shared spying but this whole more accessible thing is a load of shit. Dalt’s said so too. The AC is not designed for the masses. Not sure how the 40fter and two hydrogen powered boats will reduce costs either. 

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9 minutes ago, Stingray~ said:

image.thumb.png.4bab163e66aef2cf0b5e2d2b044f409a.png

So Tomorrow is the big day.
Looking forward to it.
Meanwhile I was involved in something heavier and something else then  'Yachting" alone.
"Impossible" some may think but true.
Here she comes (it's brainstorm so babble away)

https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/230396-energy-scenario-for-unlimited-green-cooling-down-the-planet-energy-without-carbondioxide-emmisions/&tab=comments#comment-7731268

Cheers!

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8 minutes ago, furler49 said:

It’s interesting, I didn’t think it did. With weight reductions, less crew etc and further design for light airs it’s the Med/Middle East for me. Cork just doesn’t add up. 
 

As for the rest of it. I like the shared spying but this whole more accessible thing is a load of shit. Dalt’s said so too. The AC is not designed for the masses. Not sure how the 40fter and two hydrogen powered boats will reduce costs either. 

almost 50% of a team's carbon foot print is fuel used via the on water operations team, so if they swap that out for solar charged hydrogen fuel cells, then that's a massive gain there. Steps like this, while small, do eventually move us in the right direction.

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1 minute ago, ChairborneRanger said:

almost 50% of a team's carbon foot print is fuel used via the on water operations team, so if they swap that out for solar charged hydrogen fuel cells, then that's a massive gain there. Steps like this, while small, do eventually move us in the right direction.

While I agree with the sentiment it wasn’t a teams carbon footprint I was referring too, it was the pounds in the pocket. 
 

The hydrogen boats are just a way for ETNZ to pay some element of their costs… 

 

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Just now, furler49 said:

The hydrogen boats are just a way for ETNZ to pay some element of their costs… 

Oh really, I thought you knew better.

But never mind, join the Negativists, be happy. :mellow:

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