Protocol for the 37th America’s Cup

[Fiji Bitter 1,976]

Just now, Gissie said:

Bitter's level of communication.

Pissy's level of intelligence.

And you really want to know how to circumvent ignore?

Will tell you after you tell me why Grunter chucked you of his Whitbread campaign. I actually asked him, and he said no way that he could remember all the pussies he kicked off after a couple of days.

 

[Gissie 1,762]

1 hour ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pissy's level of intelligence.

And you really want to know how to circumvent ignore?

Will tell you after you tell me why Grunter chucked you of his Whitbread campaign. I actually asked him, and he said no way that he could remember all the pussies he kicked off after a couple of days.

 

Crickets and name dropping is all there is here. Bitter re-living the days he was a legend in his own lunchbox.

[SimonN 720]

5 hours ago, Gissie said:

Even the new 40's are to be built by an Aussie company.

 

5 hours ago, Chobani Sailor said:

Being built in China to be exact.

Got to love the irony that when we last saw a compulsory "mini-me" class, it was built in NZ, bringing employment and skills to NZ..........but wait a minute! That has to have been bad for NZ because it was done by Larry and Russell so therefore, this time, we must not build in NZ. Got to admire the logic. 

[Gissie 1,762]

6 minutes ago, SimonN said:

 

Got to love the irony that when we last saw a compulsory "mini-me" class, it was built in NZ, bringing employment and skills to NZ..........but wait a minute! That has to have been bad for NZ because it was done by Larry and Russell so therefore, this time, we must not build in NZ. Got to admire the logic. 

Considering they are now following closely in Larry's footsteps, maybe they felt it would be wrong to do any building or development in the home country.

Although they do seem to have forgotten that Larry lost in the end.

[Forourselves 1,694]

4 hours ago, Gissie said:

1. That the winner defends in their home waters. Sort of part of being the proud holders.

2. That the winner gets to chose the design, along with their hip pocket challenger. Without having to pay a penalty.

3. Zero one design, supplied parts involved. If this is needed to keep costs down it is the wrong design.

4. No forced to play in a secondary 'world' series. Have it, if the defender wants, but not as a compulsory event.

Probably a couple of other things, but most of the other shenanigans are fine. All part and parcel of the thing.

 

1. What if your "home waters" aren't deed compliant? ,Do you just forfeit the cup you just spent hundreds of millions to win?

2. Thats still the case, as its always been

3. Not practical or cost efficient. If there is an opportunity to reduce costs, it is prudent take those opportunities.

4. I actually agree with this, though if you're a team heavily reliant on sponsorship, it may be something sponsors want.

 

[Gissie 1,762]

4 hours ago, Forourselves said:

If they’re trading using NZ’s image and reputation as a focal point, as well as using NZ’s trade and Enterprise logo as many if not all do, doesn’t that then make them a NZ representative? Therefor they’re all representing NZ in some way, which makes them a NZ representative does it not? NZ dairy, NZ meat exports, NZ timber, NZ innovation and technology, NZ film, NZ tourism, hell, the NZ Prime Minister! You reap the rewards of all these NZ businesses. Yet you don’t support them. 
The fact is, you watching the AC at all, no matter what you think of the team, or who you support, adds to the views the team uses as a selling point to sell the event to overseas investors. So by watching the event, you’re supporting the team. You can be a Prada fan all you like, but you’ll be supporting Team NZ by watching at all.

Whatever darling.

You support trying to force any potential winner to not have the choice that has been available for over 130 years.

Are you a Cantabrian by any chance?

[Forourselves 1,694]

7 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Whatever darling.

You support trying to force any potential winner to not have the choice that has been available for over 130 years.

Are you a Cantabrian by any chance?

Grant Dalton would like to thank you for your continued support of his team.

[Kate short for Bob 438]

29 minutes ago, Gissie said:

You support trying to force any potential winner to not have the choice that has been available for over 130 years.

US$20m is hardly onerous if you desperately want to change the boat class.

[phill_nz 874]

much what i was thinking

it would barely match the cost of the lawyers

[Schakel 262]

2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

Grant Dalton would like to thank you for your continued support of his team.

So are you sitting left or right next to the AC god?

[Fiji Bitter 1,976]

Just now, Schakel said:

So are you sitting left or right next to the AC god?

You don't really get it, do you?

Fore is obviously sitting right behind Dalts, and believe it or not, me right in front of Jesus, who's coming, they say.

[Schakel 262]

4 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

You don't really get it, do you?

Fore is obviously sitting right behind Dalts, and believe it or not, me right in front of Jesus, who's coming, they say.

Hahaha,

 

[JALhazmat 1,617]

3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

US$20m is hardly onerous if you desperately want to change the boat class.

What GD would give for a spare 20mil currently… hardly onerous? Lol 

[Gissie 1,762]

3 hours ago, phill_nz said:

much what i was thinking

it would barely match the cost of the lawyers

The cost is not as important as the attempt to remove what was always considered a right of the winner. A right for over 130 years, one that Dalton once fought for. One that he now wants to either remove or at least get a nice payout for losing.

At the same time, anyone that thinks 20 mill isn't even chump change to the filthy rich hasn't spent much time with them.

 

[Jethrow 413]

so it would be interesting to see how far in advance the kiwi fan club would go. If every entrant had to sign the 20 million dollar clause for the next two cycles? The next three or four? If it doesn't go against the deed why not get some money 10 or 15 years down the track if the third defender from next decided to change the class?

[barfy 1,306]

^ better go back and do some ciphering jethrow

[Kate short for Bob 438]

3 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

What GD would give for a spare 20mil currently… hardly onerous? Lol 

The $20m clause says it is shared i.e. it all wouldn't go to ETNZ.  LOL.

[Kate short for Bob 438]

2 hours ago, Gissie said:

The cost is not as important as the attempt to remove what was always considered a right of the winner. A right for over 130 years, one that Dalton once fought for. One that he now wants to either remove or at least get a nice payout for losing.

But the right hasn't been removed.

 

2 hours ago, Gissie said:

At the same time, anyone that thinks 20 mill isn't even chump change to the filthy rich hasn't spent much time with them.

Obviously you have.

[enigmatically2 1,483]

16 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The $20m clause says it is shared i.e. it all wouldn't go to ETNZ.  LOL.

For someone who claimed his reading comprehension wasn't poor you've done a very good job of missing the point there.

$20m is a lot to GD, he is going offshore for not much more than that allegedly. So if it's a lot to him, why would it not be a lot to any other campaign?

And that is without addressing the hole in your logic. If it isn't much then it wouldn't be a deterrent. So is therefore there for what? 

And to say the right hasn't been removed is also a bit superficial. You have the right to free speech (unlike many in the world). If you were charged $1000 every time you exercised it, would you consider that infringing on your rights? Of course you would. And so is this

[dogwatch 1,319]

10 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

$20m is a lot to GD, he is going offshore for not much more than that allegedly.

Not sure that is correct. I thought Auckland had offered $80M but GD considers that insufficient.

[enigmatically2 1,483]

5 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Not sure that is correct. I thought Auckland had offered $80M but GD considers that insufficient.

I meant the difference between what Auckland offered and what GD thinks he needs.  Which is allegedly "only" $20-$40m. That is the amount that is causing him to go offshore so it must be "significant"

[JALhazmat 1,617]

2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The $20m clause says it is shared i.e. it all wouldn't go to ETNZ.  LOL.

Who it is split between / the total amount dear chum.. describing 20mil As not onerous is laughable. 
 

not bothered who it’s split between 
 

20 mil is 20mil

[Rennmaus 3,064]

10 hours ago, Forourselves said:

1. What if your "home waters" aren't deed compliant? ,Do you just forfeit the cup you just spent hundreds of millions to win?

2. Thats still the case, as its always been

3. Not practical or cost efficient. If there is an opportunity to reduce costs, it is prudent take those opportunities.

4. I actually agree with this, though if you're a team heavily reliant on sponsorship, it may be something sponsors want.

 

As long as there's MC, there are no non-Deed-compliant waters. You again show an extreme lack of Deed-knowledge, which makes it hard to take you seriously when it comes to the AC.

[Schakel 262]

1 hour ago, Rennmaus said:

As long as there's MC, there are no non-Deed-compliant waters. You again show an extreme lack of Deed-knowledge, which makes it hard to take you seriously when it comes to the AC.

Hi Rennmaus long time nor forumed,

I Introduced a new factor, Dalts will give it considation, 1 percent is 1 percent extra  is the difference between winning and losing. High tech wins: Solar deckes,  not in the draft vesion, will lead to very sophisticated photoelectric volt cell research.
If the america's cup does it, it is ackknowlegde.  Formula 1 car racing with solar cells is too much of that,  it doesn't help formula 1 .
Regulation to stimulate solar in Ac,  helps world sustainable economy.

Here is the plan:

1. Let the teams do their research on solar cells and add the surplus to the grinders and shore power.
Or make one cell the standard, it is already good enough.

2.Make the power supply system hybrid, each boat can chose between solar, shore power or grinders.

3. (Most inportant (also tactical)) There is a green flag where  shore power supply towards the tesla cells is no longer allowed. This happens on sunny days,

If or when the regatta's are on a sunny day. Teams with the best solar cells have an advantage.

What do you think? It's is a high tech battle and it will be an even more technical battle.
The ac75 version march 2021 I have a general remark. Because of lifting a weight almost 1500 kg up and down 5 metres each time you tack or gybe, is very energy consuming operation but deliveres monohulls that are the fastest on earth.

To the insiders deciders: I hope and think my plan works out and your Ac become propellant solar cell technology.

To the the rest of Ac community who aren't on top level industrial management and engineering: Which monohull is faster then the ac75 version 2021?

Cheers!

[floater 697]

19 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What on earth does an AC Protocol have to do with morality?

so. I looked it up:

morals: widely-shared communal or societal norms about right and wrong.

sportsmanship: The four elements of sportsmanship are often shown being good form, the will to win, equity and fairness. All four elements are critical and a balance must be found among all four for true sportsmanship to be illustrated. These elements may also cause conflict, as a person may desire to win more than play in equity and fairness and thus resulting in a clash within the aspects of sportsmanship. This will cause problems as the person believes they are being a good sportsman, but they are defeating the purpose of this idea as they are ignoring two key components of being sportsmanlike. When athletes become too self-centred, the idea of sportsmanship is dismissed.

what we teach our kids: its not whether you win or lose, its how you play the game.

[Schakel 262]

19 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What on earth does an AC Protocol have to do with morality?

Yeah right read my post and you'll understand, (Or Not)
 It's about two posts up.

 

[Rennmaus 3,064]

48 minutes ago, Schakel said:

Hi Rennmaus long time nor forumed,

I Introduced a new factor, Dalts will give it considation, 1 percent is 1 percent extra  is the difference between winning and losing. High tech wins: Solar deckes,  not in the draft vesion, will lead to very sophisticated photoelectric volt cell research.
If the america's cup does it, it is ackknowlegde.  Formula 1 car racing with solar cells is too much of that,  it doesn't help formula 1 .
Regulation to stimulate solar in Ac,  helps world sustainable economy.

Here is the plan:

1. Let the teams do their research on solar cells and add the surplus to the grinders and shore power.
Or make one cell the standard, it is already good enough.

2.Make the power supply system hybrid, each boat can chose between solar, shore power or grinders.

3. (Most inportant (also tactical)) There is a green flag where  shore power supply towards the tesla cells is no longer allowed. This happens on sunny days,

If or when the regatta's are on a sunny day. Teams with the best solar cells have an advantage.

What do you think? It's is a high tech battle and it will be an even more technical battle.
Besides the ac75 version march 2021 I have a general remark. Because of lifting a weight almost 1500 kg up and down 5 metres each time you tack or gybe, is very energy consuming operation but deliveres monohulls that are the fastest on earth.

To the insiders deciders: I hope and think my plan works out and your Ac become propellant solar cell technology.

To the the rest of Ac community who aren't on top level industrial management and engineering: Which monohull is faster then the ac75 version 2021?

Cheers!

"forumed"  - that's good.

For the moment I think, that the efficiency (weight/space vs. output ratio) of on-board solar panels is a no-go for AC yachts. They simply need too much power over a too long time, even with 20 minutes races. Plus, the power needs to be there reliably and not only when the sun shines. To make matters worse, splendid, sunny weather often comes with little wind pressure, so a sailboat race is probably a sub-optimal event to rely on constant availability of solar power.
There is a good example for how to do it: SailGP uses batteries on board and charges them on shore with solar power. Best of both worlds.

[Schakel 262]

10 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

"forumed"  - that's good.

For the moment I think, that the efficiency (weight/space vs. output ratio) of on-board solar panels is a no-go for AC yachts. They simply need too much power over a too long time, even with 20 minutes races. Plus, the power needs to be there reliably and not only when the sun shines. To make matters worse, splendid, sunny weather often comes with little wind pressure, so a sailboat race is probably a sub-optimal event to rely on constant availability of solar power.
There is a good example for how to do it: SailGP uses batteries on board and charges them on shore with solar power. Best of both worlds.

Read my post again, but you are right thinking; I know you like that; Give it a thought. Dalts and the others are considering it as wel. Believe it not, because of involvement in energy scenario's I am Overloaded with work. This was my last serious post here, yeah.  Well I hope  so..  It's just an idea.

See you and all the best I am going to retreat because it is too big of an argument.
 

Well that's it, I am not open to dicussion any more,

Night night.
 

[Gissie 1,762]

6 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

But the right hasn't been removed.

 

Obviously you have.

Yup, and they would all be pissed at having to pay for what had always been considered a right to chose.

[Forourselves 1,694]

24 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Yup, and they would all be pissed at having to pay for what had always been considered a right to chose.

So don't sign the protocol then.

[Forourselves 1,694]

3 hours ago, floater said:

so. I looked it up:

morals: widely-shared communal or societal norms about right and wrong.

sportsmanship: The four elements of sportsmanship are often shown being good form, the will to win, equity and fairness. All four elements are critical and a balance must be found among all four for true sportsmanship to be illustrated. These elements may also cause conflict, as a person may desire to win more than play in equity and fairness and thus resulting in a clash within the aspects of sportsmanship. This will cause problems as the person believes they are being a good sportsman, but they are defeating the purpose of this idea as they are ignoring two key components of being sportsmanlike. When athletes become too self-centred, the idea of sportsmanship is dismissed.

what we teach our kids: its not whether you win or lose, its how you play the game.

Isn't part of being a "sportsman" respecting the rules of that respective sport?

In this case, it would be the rules set out in the Deed of gift, and protocol.

Clearly, all teams, including Team NZ, showed class and sportsmanship during the American Magic Capsize, both during the recovery itself and afterward to ensure American Magic were able to continue their campaign. Without that "sportsmanship", American Magics capsize would have ended their campaign right there and then.

So when we talk about sportsmanship, we need to have a bit of perspective, and think about what has happened in the past, and not just what we think about the protocol.

On top of that, from what we've seen from the teams, (Ineos and American Magic at least) Team NZ has been open with their communication to the teams, which means all teams are regularly updated in terms of the Class rule, protocol, and venue updates, which has seen the teams work TOGETHER to achieve the end goal.

[Gissie 1,762]

12 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So don't sign the protocol then.

And this attitude is why most of the rich have given up on the cup.

It is also the reason Dalton has never been able to get one on side.

[Forourselves 1,694]

1 minute ago, Gissie said:

And this attitude is why most of the rich have given up on the cup.

It is also the reason Dalton has never been able to get one on side.

Most of the rich have given up because they haven't won.

They've got Ineos and AM on side. LR haven't complained yet.

[Kate short for Bob 438]

2 hours ago, Gissie said:

Yup, and they would all be pissed at having to pay for what had always been considered a right to chose.

Big deal.  I didn't realise billionaires were such delicate violets.

You would know of course.

Although today's billionaire's aren't like the old style billionaire.  Today's are quite a bit softer.

Kerry Packer would have tossed a coin for $50m.

[Kate short for Bob 438]

1 hour ago, Gissie said:

It is also the reason Dalton has never been able to get one on side.

Mmm who owns Emirates?  Don't split hairs - Shiekh Maktoum is in charge.

[shebeen 479]

4 hours ago, Schakel said:

Read my post again, but you are right thinking; I know you like that; Give it a thought. Dalts and the others are considering it as wel. Believe it not, because of involvement in energy scenario's I am Overloaded with work. This was my last serious post here, yeah.  Well I hope  so..  It's just an idea.

See you and all the best I am going to retreat because it is too big of an argument.
 

Well that's it, I am not open to dicussion any more,

Night night.
 

Those on the know gave it some thought.

 

Your dumb idea is a non starter.

 

Glad to hear you've dropped it

 

[Stingray~ 2,284]

TE and HR got into some Prot discussion starting around 30m of this link yesterday

(1) Facebook

 

 

[Schakel 262]

5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

TE and HR got into some Prot discussion starting around 30m of this link yesterday

(1) Facebook

 

 

I found this on facebook as well.

It is getting viral.

[floater 697]

5 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

TE and HR got into some Prot discussion starting around 30m of this link yesterday

(1) Facebook

so, is Auckland the perfect venue - except for the time zone?

[Gissie 1,762]

3 hours ago, floater said:

so, is Auckland the perfect venue - except for the time zone?

And the lack of string free millions of dollars from the government of course...

[Sailbydate 3,620]

3 hours ago, floater said:

so, is Auckland the perfect venue - except for the time zone?

Not to mention the somewhat unreliable sea breeze.

[dogwatch 1,319]

5 hours ago, floater said:

so, is Auckland the perfect venue - except for the time zone?

If you want to know the perfect venues, look at where the J-class $Bs like to spend their holidays. It isn't Auckland.

[sunseeker 458]

11 hours ago, Stingray~ said:

TE and HR got into some Prot discussion starting around 30m of this link yesterday

(1) Facebook

 

 

Ehman has become something akin to a bad afternoon talk show. Having Hamish Ross on continually is like a segment of stupid pet tricks.

[Schakel 262]

It's inevitable, the mighty maxi Edmond the Rothschild will win.
You know the guy from the IMF, most money, most knowledge, most power in the world.
The americans just do not know it yet,  is a Consciousness_Project
 

Better then america's cup, faster (on the long run), cleaner, healthier, more honest.
Link: Transat Jacques Vabre, Ultimes, Ocean Fifty, Imoca's, Open 40's

 

Cheers!

[Sailbydate 3,620]

1 hour ago, Schakel said:

 

Better then america's cup, faster (on the long run), cleaner, healthier, more honest.
Link: Transat Jacques Vabre, Ultimes, Ocean Fifty, Imoca's, Open 40's

 

 

And yet, the Ulimes and IMOCAs owe their foiling existence to the AC. 

So, it's not better - just different. Vive la différence! 

[Gissie 1,762]

11 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And yet, the Ulimes and IMOCAs owe their foiling existence to the AC. 

So, it's not better - just different. Vive la différence! 

Different like not needing high and low wind limits...

[dogwatch 1,319]

12 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And yet, the Ulimes and IMOCAs owe their foiling existence to the AC. 

Do they? Moths have been foiling since 2001. C class cats since 2007. Other working designs go back to 1980. https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/early-uk-foiling-cats-and-tris-mayfly-and-force8.63406/

[Zaal 694]

Any news about Verdier joining LR ? 

[E2nO 9]

3 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Do they? Moths have been foiling since 2001. C class cats since 2007. Other working designs go back to 1980. https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/early-uk-foiling-cats-and-tris-mayfly-and-force8.63406/

You understand that your statement is actually supporting Sailbydate's line of argument, don't you?

Because what you state could also be interpreted as: although foiling had been in sailing for a very long time (as far back as the 1980th), it took the AC to push this innovation forward to modern yacht sailing ... 

I personally doubt, that all the innovation in the IMOCA, ULims, ... classes would have happened w/o the AC.

[enigmatically2 1,483]

5 minutes ago, E2nO said:

You understand that your statement is actually supporting Sailbydate's line of argument, don't you?

Because what you state could also be interpreted as: although foiling had been in sailing for a very long time (as far back as the 1980th), it took the AC to push this innovation forward to modern yacht sailing ... 

I personally doubt, that all the innovation in the IMOCA, ULims, ... classes would have happened w/o the AC.

I am sure the AC has accelerated it, but I'm sure it would have happened anyway. 

[floater 697]

On 11/21/2021 at 12:51 AM, dogwatch said:

If you want to know the perfect venues, look at where the J-class $Bs like to spend their holidays. It isn't Auckland.

nor Cork or Jeddah I presume.

[dogwatch 1,319]

Not noticeably, no.

[Grog 790]

What I have read about and in that protocol is a real turn off.

A lot of gibberish from lawyers for lawyers, with a lot of marketing BS on top of it.

 

I have literally zero interest in that kind of gig.

 

[rh3000 1,883]

5 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Not noticeably, no.

Except, it *was* Auckland until Covid hit

https://powerboat.world/news/218832/Superyacht-and-J-Class-events-around-Americas-Cup

[floater 697]

11 minutes ago, rh3000 said:

Except, it *was* Auckland until Covid hit

https://powerboat.world/news/218832/Superyacht-and-J-Class-events-around-Americas-Cup

so there you go. I guess somewhere in the Med might win this particular challenge. but Ireland vs. KSA vs. NZ. NZ wins.

makes you wonder just what GD is up to, don't it.

[Forourselves 1,694]

9 hours ago, floater said:

so there you go. I guess somewhere in the Med might win this particular challenge. but Ireland vs. KSA vs. NZ. NZ wins.

makes you wonder just what GD is up to, don't it.

'Then why didn't the J's come here then? 

[shebeen 479]

10 hours ago, rh3000 said:

Except, it *was* Auckland until Covid hit

https://powerboat.world/news/218832/Superyacht-and-J-Class-events-around-Americas-Cup

this was pre covid. did it happen? and does that monsieur coutts have his own yc now too?

 

January/February 2020

Wednesday 29th January to Saturday 1st February - NZ Millennium Cup Superyacht Regatta Bay of Islands in Association with Russell Boating Club

[Fiji Bitter 1,976]

Just now, shebeen said:

Russell Boating Club

You must not have a huge geography. And it's a nice little, very low key Boat Club, actually.

 

[enigmatically2 1,483]

Getting back to the boats. This larger envelope for foils is interesting. Everyone last time used the max IIRC. But bigger foil is more drag, so I assume they will become longer but thinner to give more lift without compromising drag. Which means less stable. Which presumably needs compensation via the flexible control surface allowance, but also better control and thus more power. But there won't be more power because they are cutting the crew (albeit allowing cyclors).

So will the next gen have to push the bounds of stability more? Whilst they ended up stable last time, they were less so initially, so could be tricky at the start, especially for any new entrants

[shebeen 479]

22 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Getting back to the boats. This larger envelope for foils is interesting. Everyone last time used the max IIRC. But bigger foil is more drag, so I assume they will become longer but thinner to give more lift without compromising drag. Which means less stable. Which presumably needs compensation via the flexible control surface allowance, but also better control and thus more power. But there won't be more power because they are cutting the crew (albeit allowing cyclors).

So will the next gen have to push the bounds of stability more? Whilst they ended up stable last time, they were less so initially, so could be tricky at the start, especially for any new entrants

AC75 V1 the foils were controlled by the battery, both in FCS lifting and the adjustments.. don't think that has changed here.

 

To the guy this side of the tv screen, it was expected that ETNZ with clearly smaller foils would struggle to get going in the marginal light stuff. they did, but somehow still got the rub on LR (who were one bad tack short of winning that one). I can imagine a HUGE amount of data and heavy computer time will go into foil optimisation here, with sets of foils being designed around the wind ranges. so the light air ones will be max size, but for higher wind ranges who knows what the optimal will be.

 

[shebeen 479]

oh look, the SA frontpage.

 

.

[JALhazmat 1,617]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:25 PM, Sailbydate said:

And yet, the Ulimes and IMOCAs owe their foiling existence to the AC. 

So, it's not better - just different. Vive la différence! 

Foils didn’t exist before the AC? 
 

interesting… 

[enigmatically2 1,483]

4 hours ago, shebeen said:

AC75 V1 the foils were controlled by the battery, both in FCS lifting and the adjustments.. don't think that has changed here.

 

I thought the control of the flaps was hydraulic from grinders? That is where more adjustments and power will be needed if they are less stable. That and rig which is def from grinders.

In any case it still seems that the foils are likely to be longer with smaller chord length. Thus less stable. So will something else change to make them more stable again, or will the first trips be a bit erratic?

[Stingray~ 2,284]

2 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

I thought the control of the flaps was hydraulic from grinders? That is where more adjustments and power will be needed if they are less stable. That and rig which is def from grinders.

In any case it still seems that the foils are likely to be longer with smaller chord length. Thus less stable. So will something else change to make them more stable again, or will the first trips be a bit erratic?

Shebeen is correct in that everything below-deck was battery powered.
 

Everything above-deck was grinder-powered (right?) but that may have changed in the V2s. 
 

Yes, foils is where most of the action will be again. Better foils for sure. 

[rh3000 1,883]

10 hours ago, shebeen said:

this was pre covid. did it happen? and does that monsieur coutts have his own yc now too?

 

January/February 2020

Wednesday 29th January to Saturday 1st February - NZ Millennium Cup Superyacht Regatta Bay of Islands in Association with Russell Boating Club

Millenium Cup is/was different to the J-Class Regattas which were scheduled for Feb/Mar 2021.

[P Flados 224]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:14 AM, dogwatch said:

Do they? Moths have been foiling since 2001. C class cats since 2007. Other working designs go back to 1980. https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/early-uk-foiling-cats-and-tris-mayfly-and-force8.63406/

The Hobie Trifoiler and the Rave foiled but were not fast around a course.

One C Class cat, Off Yer Rocker, was built using wand controlled T Foils.  The boat was slower than other C Class boats at the time. 

Prior to AC 34 "foils assist" was being used for racing on cats with some success. No one had shown any real performance gains for course racing on a full foiling boat other than the Moth.

After seeing the racing between ETNZ vs. Oracle in San Fran, "foiling" quickly became the focus of much development work for cats.  It is a pretty easy position to take that this was all prompted by the AC.

[Raz'r 5,218]

57 minutes ago, P Flados said:

The Hobie Trifoiler and the Rave foiled but were not fast around a course.

One C Class cat, Off Yer Rocker, was built using wand controlled T Foils.  The boat was slower than other C Class boats at the time. 

Prior to AC 34 "foils assist" was being used for racing on cats with some success. No one had shown any real performance gains for course racing on a full foiling boat other than the Moth.

After seeing the racing between ETNZ vs. Oracle in San Fran, "foiling" quickly became the focus of much development work for cats.  It is a pretty easy position to take that this was all prompted by the AC.

I'd point to the moths driving the development up, not the other way. Can the AC refine incredibly given budgets? of course. But the Moths pointed the way. 

[pusslicker 665]

 

12 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I'd point to the moths driving the development up, not the other way. Can the AC refine incredibly given budgets? of course. But the Moths pointed the way. 

The AC tried to make it more complicated than it had to be. You could also argue it slowed it down or made the development slower than it would have been if the rule makers weren't trying to stop it. The implication of the original post was that Kiwis invented foiling though. And put the first men on the moon. 

[Kate short for Bob 438]

7 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

And put the first men on the moon. 

A New Zealander by the name of Bill Pickering as a Director at NASA was very influential and a major contributor to the space exploration programme from the 50's through to the 70's.

[The_Alchemist 1,433]

3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

A New Zealander by the name of Bill Pickering as a Director at NASA was very influential and a major contributor to the space exploration programme from the 50's through to the 70's.

The encyclopedia Britania begs to differ, they label him as an American Engineer:

William Hayward Pickering, (born December 24, 1910, Wellington, New Zealand—died March 15, 2004, La Cañada Flintridge, California, U.S.), New Zealand-born American engineer, physicist, and head of the team that developed Explorer 1, the first U.S. satellite. He played a leading role in the development of the U.S. space program.

Pickering attended Canterbury University in New Zealand before moving to the United States in 1929; he became a U.S. citizen in 1941. He studied at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena (B.S. 1932, M.S. 1933, Ph.D. 1936) and joined the staff of the institute in 1936. ......

[Stingray~ 2,284]

The AC75s are obviously not the first foilers but they are the fastest and beastliest foilers ever built, especially upwind, and as a technology-lover I give Verdier/Bernasconi's design huge accolades for it. Very progressive. 

[rh3000 1,883]

10 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

The encyclopedia Britania begs to differ, they label him as an American Engineer:

William Hayward Pickering, (born December 24, 1910, Wellington, New Zealand—died March 15, 2004, La Cañada Flintridge, California, U.S.), New Zealand-born American engineer, physicist, and head of the team that developed Explorer 1, the first U.S. satellite. He played a leading role in the development of the U.S. space program.

Pickering attended Canterbury University in New Zealand before moving to the United States in 1929; he became a U.S. citizen in 1941. He studied at the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena (B.S. 1932, M.S. 1933, Ph.D. 1936) and joined the staff of the institute in 1936. ......

Success has many fathers...

[Kate short for Bob 438]

17 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

The encyclopedia Britania begs to differ, they label him as an American Engineer:

Born in Wellington, NZ.  Educated at Canterbury University, Christchurch, NZ.

Yeah Na - born a Kiwi, always a Kiwi.

[sunseeker 458]

1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Born in Wellington, NZ.  Educated at Canterbury University, Christchurch, NZ.

Yeah Na - born a Kiwi, always a Kiwi.

Until he became an American citizen. 

[Sailbydate 3,620]

13 hours ago, JALhazmat said:

Foils didn’t exist before the AC? 
 

interesting… 

On bugger all, except maybe the, Moth. Designers VPLP/ Verdier were primarily responsible for introducing the AC foil technology into conventional yacht design.

Interesting? I'll say.

 

[enigmatically2 1,483]

1 hour ago, sunseeker said:

Until he became an American citizen. 

Hush. Kiwis are dominant in most fields. It doesn't matter that it was just one NZ born engineer among hundreds (and one who changed nationalities as soon as he could) they were responsible for putting men on the moon. Just like one kiwi who started a company decades ago that achieved bugger all until someone else took over means they are a leading force in F1. 

It doesn't matter if the kiwi sweeps the floor or it's just a  key person that  once took a holiday in NZ they all count.

Which is a why a sailing team funded by Middle East Airline and a swiss-italian; on a boat designed by a Brit, which may well be based in Cork (or anywhere except NZ it seems) and helmed by an Australian will still be a Kiwi team. 

(((Insert auto-response from 4 pointing out that he only counted it if the person not only swept the floor but made the tea as well, and thus he has destroyed my argument)))

[P Flados 224]

3 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I'd point to the moths driving the development up, not the other way. Can the AC refine incredibly given budgets? of course. But the Moths pointed the way. 

The Moth performance for upwind and downwind showed everyone that foiling could work and would be very fast. 

No one had really cracked fast foiling on anything that did not resemble a moth. 

At the time, Melvin & Morrelli were big into fast cats and had been using curved boards for "foil assist".  Pete Melvin was involved in writing the rule, knew the foiling potential, knew the rule was written to discourage foiling, but in fact actually allowed foiling.  He was then hired by ETNZ.  The M&M SL33 cat was used to find a way to get altitude stability without flaps and wands (a huge breakthrough).  The payoff was full foiling downwind with a remarkable improvement in vmg.  The AC72s were also fast upwind, but I recall only brief examples of one boat (Oracle) doing full foiling upwind.  Those brief examples were during the comeback, and were impressive.

[Stingray~ 2,284]

1 hour ago, enigmatically2 said:

Hush. Kiwis are dominant in most fields. It doesn't matter that it was just one NZ born engineer among hundreds (and one who changed nationalities as soon as he could) they were responsible for putting men on the moon. Just like one kiwi who started a company decades ago that achieved bugger all until someone else took over means they are a leading force in F1. 

It doesn't matter if the kiwi sweeps the floor or it's just a  key person that  once took a holiday in NZ they all count.

Which is a why a sailing team funded by Middle East Airline and a swiss-italian; on a boat designed by a Brit, which may well be based in Cork (or anywhere except NZ it seems) and helmed by an Australian will still be a Kiwi team. 

(((Insert auto-response from 4 pointing out that he only counted it if the person not only swept the floor but made the tea as well, and thus he has destroyed my argument)))

 

[Forourselves 1,694]

3 hours ago, enigmatically2 said:

Hush. Kiwis are dominant in most fields. It doesn't matter that it was just one NZ born engineer among hundreds (and one who changed nationalities as soon as he could) they were responsible for putting men on the moon. Just like one kiwi who started a company decades ago that achieved bugger all until someone else took over means they are a leading force in F1. 

It doesn't matter if the kiwi sweeps the floor or it's just a  key person that  once took a holiday in NZ they all count.

Which is a why a sailing team funded by Middle East Airline and a swiss-italian; on a boat designed by a Brit, which may well be based in Cork (or anywhere except NZ it seems) and helmed by an Australian will still be a Kiwi team. 

(((Insert auto-response from 4 pointing out that he only counted it if the person not only swept the floor but made the tea as well, and thus he has destroyed my argument)))

 

[enigmatically2 1,483]

1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

 

Ah yes. Played in NZ in 1985, so good kiwi band proving that NZ dominates the music industry

[rh3000 1,883]

11 minutes ago, enigmatically2 said:

Ah yes. Played in NZ in 1985, so good kiwi band proving that NZ dominates the music industry

You seem wierdly obsessed and sour about Kiwis - did one sleep with your wife or something?