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Cat and mouse game with China poking to see what the response is.  As soon as China detects weakness in international support for Taiwan, it will be game over for Taiwan independence.  

The question will be whether Taiwan allows itself to be destroyed by China's military (fight to the end) or surrenders early to save civilian lives.  I suspect it will be the former given their knowledge of Chinese cruelty.

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5 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Cat and mouse game with China poking to see what the response is.  As soon as China detects weakness in international support for Taiwan, it will be game over for Taiwan independence.  

Exactly. I don't want to fight China over it.

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5 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Cat and mouse game with China poking to see what the response is.  As soon as China detects weakness in international support for Taiwan, it will be game over for Taiwan independence.  

The question will be whether Taiwan allows itself to be destroyed by China's military (fight to the end) or surrenders early to save civilian lives.  I suspect it will be the former given their knowledge of Chinese cruelty.

I think a negotiated reabsorption into China could be done. The Taiwanese won't like it, and they'll lose the vote, but they won't be destroyed.

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37 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I think a negotiated reabsorption into China could be done. The Taiwanese won't like it, and they'll lose the vote, but they won't be destroyed.

Not sure how keen they would be after what’s gone down in Hong Kong  
 

They are in the process of building a bunch of Diesel electric subs active in 2025. along with aquiring a shit load of ground based harpoons   In a few years they will be an even tougher foe for an invading fleet.
 

  I read that this whole escalation  is over the subs the US is giving Australia    

  

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36 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

The US isn't giving Australia nuke subs, but it is giving them the nuclear technology.

I stand corrected the tech.  Which is the gold standard in subs. 

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It's just information. Being a "5 eyes" connectee, the US trusts them with their citizen's most intimate information. 

Nuke sub tech seems almost trivial compared to that.

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10 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I think a negotiated reabsorption into China could be done. The Taiwanese won't like it, and they'll lose the vote, but they won't be destroyed.

Working well for Hong Kong.

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12 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I think a negotiated reabsorption into China could be done. The Taiwanese won't like it, and they'll lose the vote, but they won't be destroyed.

Are YOU volunteering to have your hometown "reabsorbed" into a dictatorship with concentration camps and worse for anyone that steps out of line? Hong Kong is the 1939 Poland, everyone now can see what reabsorbed looks like.

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It’s the Taiwanese call if they fight, or not. Not mine, yours, the UN, etc.

the world recognizes Taiwan as a breakaway state. Best we can do is kick the can down the road. This superpower is broke. We wasted it on a land war in Asia.

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4 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

It’s the Taiwanese call if they fight, or not. Not mine, yours, the UN, etc.

the world recognizes Taiwan as a breakaway state. Best we can do is kick the can down the road. This superpower is broke. We wasted it on a land war in Asia.

If I were king, we would have 1/4 the bases we have now and a much smaller military presence.  We would hardly ever intervene militarily.

However, Taiwan is a peaceful democratic country being threatened by a bully authoritarian oppressive regime.  Can we really stand by and just let China "reabsorb" Taiwan?

My solution to these foreign policy issues is to offer green cards to the people affected.  You don't like living in Cuba?  Come to America.  Let Cuba try to make it with the leftovers.  We should do that with China and all of its citizens, especially Hong Kong.  We should do that will the entire world all the time.  Let people vote with their feet.

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24 minutes ago, jzk said:

If I were king, we would have 1/4 the bases we have now and a much smaller military presence.  We would hardly ever intervene militarily.

However, Taiwan is a peaceful democratic country being threatened by a bully authoritarian oppressive regime.  Can we really stand by and just let China "reabsorb" Taiwan?

My solution to these foreign policy issues is to offer green cards to the people affected.  You don't like living in Cuba?  Come to America.  Let Cuba try to make it with the leftovers.  We should do that with China and all of its citizens, especially Hong Kong.  We should do that will the entire world all the time.  Let people vote with their feet.

We figured it out in Korea. Barring Nukes, we cannot fight the Chinese and win with acceptable losses. Losses would include DC, NYC, the eastern seaboard, Miami, the western cities, etc. Are those acceptable? 
 

I’m ok with the refugee proposal. Hong Kong has that with a couple countries. Why don’t they all leave?

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32 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

We figured it out in Korea. Barring Nukes, we cannot fight the Chinese and win with acceptable losses. Losses would include DC, NYC, the eastern seaboard, Miami, the western cities, etc. Are those acceptable? 
 

I’m ok with the refugee proposal. Hong Kong has that with a couple countries. Why don’t they all leave?

Do you think China is willing to take those kinds of losses for Taiwan?

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9 minutes ago, jzk said:

Do you think China is willing to take those kinds of losses for Taiwan?

I don't know, hence, the strategic ambiguity solution.

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Lessee, strategery 101 - 

How many of ya were smart enough to oppose the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 ?? 

If you were not, your advice on China-Taiwan can be safely ignored. 

(My dear Admiral even jumped on a bus and went all the way to DC to object . . )  

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13 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Lessee, strategery 101 - 

How many of ya were smart enough to oppose the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 ?? 

If you were not, your advice on China-Taiwan can be safely ignored. 

(My dear Admiral even jumped on a bus and went all the way to DC to object . . )  

This is the 12th* time you've brought up this exact same point. 

 

 

 

*Maybe it's just the 6th or 8th time, not sure. 

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

We figured it out in Korea. Barring Nukes, we cannot fight the Chinese and win with acceptable losses. Losses would include DC, NYC, the eastern seaboard, Miami, the western cities, etc. Are those acceptable? 
 

I’m ok with the refugee proposal. Hong Kong has that with a couple countries. Why don’t they all leave?

Maybe they didn't think those countries were all that great.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

This is the 12th* time you've brought up this exact same point. 

About as often as you brought up the dumb-beyond-belief fantasy about those secret left-wing universities boring from within the republic. 

And you continue to refuse to admit that you got suckered in 2003. 

Own it. 

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3 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

That's it.

Well, y'all don't care about getting lied into insane wars . . 

which is why you keep falling for them 

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8 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

120th time more like

Look, there is nothing particularly disgraceful about having been wrong about the Iraq invasion . .  

In 2003, close to 85% of USAeans were in favor of it, including many of my colleagues. 

But obviously, they (and you, right?) were wrong about that. 

You'll never improve as an (even armchair) analyst if you refuse to admit errors, or make any effort to correct the flawed thinking that led to them. 

Just saying . .  

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I very really remember the day the invasion started. It was on the news that morning. My boss, a fairly conservative (o.k., for a Canadian), was chatting in reception that day. He said something like "Bush has made a horrible mistake and it will affect the US's Middle East relations for at least a decade". Yeah I thought it was a big mistake but didn't have the long term view he had at the time.

 

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27 minutes ago, Zonker said:

"Bush has made a horrible mistake and it will affect the US's Middle East relations for at least a decade".

It is a train wreck that is still ongoing - likely for far longer. 

Interesting that the lies Bush used to sell that war were preposterous on their face - Saddam/Al Qaeda allied ??  No chance in the world.  Yellow cake and aluminum tubes?  Debunked within hours. 

But the US media was all war hysteria all the time, and silenced or ignored dissident voices (like Phil Donohue). 

In fact, the hysteria was so great that those of us who spoke out were threatened with violence, loss of jobs, etc. 

The only reason I keep harping on it is so that it does not happen again . . . 

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

I very really remember the day the invasion started. It was on the news that morning. My boss, a fairly conservative (o.k., for a Canadian), was chatting in reception that day. He said something like "Bush has made a horrible mistake and it will affect the US's Middle East relations for at least a decade". Yeah I thought it was a big mistake but didn't have the long term view he had at the time.

At the time I predicted that it would end in a 3 way (or more) civil war between the Shias, Sunnis and the Kurds with the remaining Marsh Arabs trying to kill all the Baathists for fucking up the Tigris/Euphrates marsh areas.

So AJ said it was a mistake. So fucking what. Doesn't mean he's right about anything else before or since.

FKT

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

The only reason I keep harping on it is so that it does not happen again . .

Here's the actual reason you keep saying the same thing over and over:

 

pea3.jpg

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19 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Lessee, strategery 101 - 

How many of ya were smart enough to oppose the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 ?? 

If you were not, your advice on China-Taiwan can be safely ignored. 

(My dear Admiral even jumped on a bus and went all the way to DC to object . . )  

2003 was a bit late. I thought Ron Paul pretty clever to oppose the Iraq war back in 2002. Are you also a fan?

By any chance, have you ever voted for a Presidential candidate whose advice on foreign policy you'd feel safe ignoring?

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Here's how it went down AJ:

Mid Oct 2002: I took a lunch meeting with Donnie [Rumsfeld] and Tommy [Franks]. They both opted for the flaming roast quail, while I had the grilled halibut. Those boys were ready to light some shit up. After we had all agreed that our server had "really excellent tits," we had a lengthy discussion about a maximum retirement age for female servers of 28 or 29. After that age, most women were smarter than any of us liked to admit. Then there was some bullshine about the football team back when it had a fucking name FFS!, then we got down to serious war stuff. Tommy wanted my OK to start the war that afternoon. I said absolutely not.

After checking with my Blueberry (Apple's first name) calendar ... we had a conference call with Gary at SEC, George at CIA, and Powell at State, Eric at Blackwater, and all our lawyers. I deemed it prudent to wait til Mar 20 ... giving us all time to buy Raytheon, KPS Capital, ____________, ______________ and other stocks without the obvious being that obvious. 

So there it is, about 40 of us swells decided to have a war to generate some cash. I told George about it on the 19th when I handed him the TV script. He was giddy like a 5 year old with the shock and awe idea. Seriously, he actually jumped up and down in delight.

Point being, none of the posters on PA had anything to do with starting the war except myself. Even the righties on here in the real world are more independent, like myself, than repugs. 

You sir, have misread the group. And not for the first time bud.  

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Meanwhile, back to our regular programming - China/Taiwan. I wonder how much of this is just a distraction by Xi for the Chinese people? China is in a mess right now with widespread power outages, factory closing, incredibly tight COVID restrictions to name a few things. Nothing works quite like appealing to patriotism when people are unhappy and pissed at the government.

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3 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Meanwhile, back to our regular programming - China/Taiwan. I wonder how much of this is just a distraction by Xi for the Chinese people? China is in a mess right now with widespread power outages, factory closing, incredibly tight COVID restrictions to name a few things. Nothing works quite like appealing to patriotism when people are unhappy and pissed at the government.

I am 100% sure it is a distraction to keep the MCGA types happy. Make that 150% sure. That said, PLENTY of wars have been started because politicians bullshitted themselves into a corner they couldn't back out of. See the War of 1812, Falklands, the King Of Sweden bullshitting about the occasional war with Russia being necessary to keep the nobles from getting lazy, Saddam Hussein and Bill Clinton playing pretend war for 8 years and then Saddam didn't realize Bush The Lessor actually was going to do it, etc. etc. etc. :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I am 100% sure it is a distraction to keep the MCGA types happy. Make that 150% sure. That said, PLENTY of wars have been started because politicians bullshitted themselves into a corner they couldn't back out of. See the War of 1812, Falklands, the King Of Sweden bullshitting about the occasional war with Russia being necessary to keep the nobles from getting lazy, Saddam Hussein and Bill Clinton playing pretend war for 8 years and then Saddam didn't realize Bush The Lessor actually was going to do it, etc. etc. etc. :rolleyes:

What do you mean by MCGA?  Do you mean MAGA?  If so, do you think China is flying its aircraft into Taiwan airspace to make Trump supporters happy?

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15 minutes ago, jzk said:

What do you mean by MCGA?  Do you mean MAGA?  If so, do you think China is flying its aircraft into Taiwan airspace to make Trump supporters happy?

sigh...

"Make China Great Again"

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4 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Point being, none of the posters on PA had anything to do with starting the war except myself.

That does not get it in the slightest. In 2003 millions of people all over the world (including Oz) spoke out and acted out - thousands were arrested. 

You failed in your duty as a citizen in your country's hour of need. 

You had an obligation to resist the war hysteria, and you failed in that. 

All I ask is that you learn from that experience, as I learned from my stupid support of the Vietnam War as it began. 

We need to apply the lessons of the past to current issues such as China-Taiwan. 

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6 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

That does not get it in the slightest. In 2003 millions of people all over the world (including Oz) spoke out and acted out - thousands were arrested. 

You failed in your duty as a citizen in your country's hour of need. 

You had an obligation to resist the war hysteria, and you failed in that. 

All I ask is that you learn from that experience, as I learned from my stupid support of the Vietnam War as it began. 

We need to apply the lessons of the past to current issues such as China-Taiwan. 

Wait, upthread you were advocating going to war to protect Taiwan. 

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Wait, upthread you were advocating going to war to protect Taiwan. 

That was not me - 

I did write that a Chinese military assault on Taiwan would not be a cake-walk. 

That is not advocating anything by any one. 

It was merely my analysis of the situation. 

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25 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

sigh...

"Make China Great Again"

That boy's as bright as a two-watt bulb. (said in my best Foghorn Leghorn imitation)

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

I very really remember the day the invasion started. It was on the news that morning. My boss, a fairly conservative (o.k., for a Canadian), was chatting in reception that day. He said something like "Bush has made a horrible mistake and it will affect the US's Middle East relations for at least a decade". Yeah I thought it was a big mistake but didn't have the long term view he had at the time.

Another point in favor of those who got it wrong in 2003 . . . 

Unlike you, at that time I was getting paid to understand the global system as best I could, and I spent a good deal of time trying to get Iraq right. 

You can't believe how many Pol Scientists got it wrong in spite of all the resources at their disposal. 

Most citizens did not have the time to study the situation seriously, and can be forgiven for getting it wrong. 

Nonetheless, they need to examine what happened and be honest about how and why they got it wrong. 

Issues of war and peace are far too important to leave up to governments - citizens have a responsibility to take part. 

At least that is what I attempted to teach the young 'uns.  

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17 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Another point in favor of those who got it wrong in 2003 . . . 

Unlike you, at that time I was getting paid to understand the global system as best I could, and I spent a good deal of time trying to get Iraq right. 

You can't believe how many Pol Scientists got it wrong in spite of all the resources at their disposal. 

Most citizens did not have the time to study the situation seriously, and can be forgiven for getting it wrong. 

Nonetheless, they need to examine what happened and be honest about how and why they got it wrong. 

Issues of war and peace are far too important to leave up to governments - citizens have a responsibility to take part. 

At least that is what I attempted to teach the young 'uns.  

Senators had even more resources at their disposal, yet many still supported the war. It's inexplicable, as is voting for them again afterwards.

By the way, ever vote for an Iraq war supporter?

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18 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

You can't believe how many Pol Scientists got it wrong in spite of all the resources at their disposal. 

Yes we can because calling it science doesn't make it scientific.

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19 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Another point in favor of those who got it wrong in 2003 . . . 

Unlike you, at that time I was getting paid to understand the global system as best I could, and I spent a good deal of time trying to get Iraq right. 

You can't believe how many Pol Scientists got it wrong in spite of all the resources at their disposal. 

Most citizens did not have the time to study the situation seriously, and can be forgiven for getting it wrong. 

Nonetheless, they need to examine what happened and be honest about how and why they got it wrong. 

Issues of war and peace are far too important to leave up to governments - citizens have a responsibility to take part. 

At least that is what I attempted to teach the young 'uns.  

19 cunts, the majority of whom were from Saudi Arabia with a few knobs being from scatterings flew planes into the Twin Towers slaughtering 3000k odd souls and you needed to be paid to think that invading Iraq in retaliation might be wrong?
 

 

 

FFS!!!
 

 

 

 

 

 

lol

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1 hour ago, Sea warrior said:

think that invading Iraq in retaliation might be wrong?

85% of USAeans were totally on board with the invasion . .

How about you ??  What did you do about it ??  Did you even blog ?? 

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10 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

85% of USAeans were totally on board with the invasion . .

I’ve found that the majority of the population (yourself, Hillary and sleepy joe included) are incredibly stupid so it comes as no surprise that 85% of the population “were on board with that invasion”

And even now that the empirical evidence is unequivocal, we still find your ‘heroes’ cozying up to the protagonists instead of sending them to the Hague.

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1 hour ago, Sea warrior said:

I’ve found that the majority of the population (yourself, Hillary and sleepy joe included) are incredibly stupid so it comes as no surprise that 85% of the population “were on board with that invasion”

And even now that the empirical evidence is unequivocal, we still find your ‘heroes’ cozying up to the protagonists instead of sending them to the Hague.

I never thought it was about anything other than oil.  Before fracking happened they were pretty worried about peak oil, and they didn't want the oil money to start pouring into saddams coffers again.

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Real citizens needed to stand up  ..  [and blog]

I doubt many consider blogging about policy that maybe 15% of the country might support is "standing up." Particularly as here when some 85% of the country wanted to kick some ME ass. Blogging is certainly safer than a march around the Capitol, which many did and many more folks protested around the world , so blog away but know that blogging almost by definition is preaching to the choir. 

Actual newsmakers and policy wonks with some semblance of bona fides present to much larger audiences.

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12 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:
12 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Real citizens needed to stand up  ..  

@Sea warrior dodged the question 

You are making more than one flawed assumption here.

I don't think he made the assumption that you're real

- DSK

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6 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

There's more than one question and more than one dodger here.

Ever vote for a politician who supported the Iraq invasion?

You mean like Bob Barr?

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

I don't think he made the assumption that you're real

- DSK

You should stop “thinking” you’ve proved yourself time and again to be dismal at it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol

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3 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

You should stop “thinking” you’ve proved yourself time and again to be dismal at it.

Frosh level deflection that has worn out the line and blocks running up and down the flagpole. 

 

 

 

 

Won't wash.

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20 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Frosh level deflection that has worn out the line and blocks running up and down the flagpole. 

 

 

 

 

Won't wash.

You should be careful never to mistake “deflection” for an unwillingness to engage idiots.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol

 

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40 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

You should be careful never to mistake “deflection” for an unwillingness to engage idiots.

I'll buy that. But the "thinking" insult is long passé.

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11 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

Ever vote for a politician who supported the Iraq invasion?

Both Sidesist "They'll all the same!" crude reductionism from the local libertard 

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4 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Both Sidesist "They'll all the same!" crude reductionism from the local libertard 

Hillary and sleepy Joe voted for the Iraq war and presumably you voted for them which makes you part of the problem of low IQ voteristas sending other people’s children to die for bullshit causes.

 

 

You did vote for Hillary and Sleepy Joe, didn’t you?

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3 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

You did vote for Hillary and Sleepy Joe, didn’t you?

I stood up against that horrible war and can prove it ?? 

How about y'all coward)s) ? 

Did you stand up, or just whine on a blog ?? 

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53 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Did you stand up, or just whine on a blog ?? 

CircleBackIsm!

You were the one pushing blogs this morning or yesterday. You've been posting blog posts, some your own, since Day One, Ollie. 

Easy on that Courvoisier.

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16 hours ago, Olsonist said:
23 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

There's more than one question and more than one dodger here.

Ever vote for a politician who supported the Iraq invasion?

You mean like Bob Barr?

Good example. Other than helping Bill Clinton to partially dismantle the Biden/Thurmond asset looting program, he never did much that I liked.

11 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:
23 hours ago, Excoded Tom said:

Ever vote for a politician who supported the Iraq invasion?

Both Sidesist "They'll all the same!" crude reductionism from the local libertard 

You could just answer yes, since we all know that's the answer.

Is a vote for the Iraq war from Biden somehow different from the votes for the war cast by others? They seem the same to me.

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6 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

I stood up against that horrible war and can prove it ?? 

How about y'all coward)s) ? 

Did you stand up, or just whine on a blog ?? 

As I suspected, You voted for Hillary and Sleepy Joe.

You have blood on your hands.

 

 

Shame on you.

 

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5 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Another point of view . . . 

well informed author disagrees partly with what I wrote above . . no biggie 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/05/the-us-must-avoid-war-with-china-over-taiwan-at-all-costs

I started an entire thread about that article. See here:

Not only is there a whole thread on this, you commented on it!

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not only is there a whole thread on this, 

If so, it was not this thread. 

Do you read every single cite on every thread upon which you comment ?? 

Didn't think so. 

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5 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I started an entire thread about that article. See here:

Not only is there a whole thread on this, you commented on it!

Doesn't mean he read it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It's a bold move, even Presidents noted for being hawks tried to stay ambiguous on this. He's essentially moving towards a two state solution by mentioning Tsai Ing-wen by name. 

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3 hours ago, spankoka said:

It's a bold move, even Presidents noted for being hawks tried to stay ambiguous on this. He's essentially moving towards a two state solution by mentioning Tsai Ing-wen by name. 

I think it’s a mistake. 

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Maybe, but he doesn't come off as senile to me. It's his policy and he is proud of it. The power of the American Empire is well and truly pivoting towards the Pacific after the brief interruption of TFG's isolationism. 

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6 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Some of y'all seem to have missed the nuance . . 

Here is the Gray Lady to set you straight. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/us/politics/biden-taiwan-defense-china.html

Here is an example of why Ollie is much dumber than he thinks he is. He claims he's for civility but starts with an insult. Then the finger wagging, and then the reading assignment. He's been told repeatedly that the NYT has a paywall, and since the date is 10/23, most of us have used up our free articles. Sure, you can clear your cookies if you desperately want to read something badly enough for the hassle but most don't and if we all wait a few hours we'll find out what the Times thinks. Or, as most courteous posters do, he could have copied the relevant remarks for us. He knows that but this way he finds some small satisfaction in presumed superiority. 

Go the AJ!

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4 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

He claims he's for civility but starts with an insult.

What is the insult ??? 

Your self-righteous arrogance is annoying. 

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44 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

What is the insult ??? 

Your self-righteous arrogance is annoying. 

Assuming others missed the nuance is insulting, AJ.

Just state your points, ollie, get no stuff from me.

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The NYT's point seems to be "don't listen to senile Biden babble, the policy of ambiguity remains". I have to disagree with the NYT here because I cannot name the head of state of the other China of the top of my head-but Biden has obviously been briefed on this and I assume he means what he says. I am quite sure the nuances that the NYT cites, will be lost on Mr. Xi. 

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1 hour ago, spankoka said:

I am quite sure the nuances that the NYT cites, will be lost on Mr. Xi. 

those USAeans are pretty darn inscrutable !!

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9 hours ago, jzk said:

Of course Biden made a mistake.  He wasn't "supposed" to say shit like that.

No, I don’t think he misspoke. I think the policy of stating we will defend Taiwan is a mistake. 

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

No, I don’t think he misspoke. I think the policy of stating we will defend Taiwan is a mistake. 

It's another line in the sand.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, spankoka said:

The JSDF is getting a big upgrade! 

 

Hyping the Yellow Peril is good business. Got the Aussies to ditch those polluting surrender monkey diesel cheese eating subs and go with red, white, and glowing-blue environmentally friendly nuke ones instead.

  200w.gif?cid=82a1493bmz8p8ma0lwomq4g9hbw

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20 hours ago, Seriatim Tom said:

I thought I liked all cheese but maybe not diesel. Unless that's what's really in those Cheez Whiz cans?

Well, I know what cheese is, and I know what whiz is... 

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On 11/2/2021 at 4:04 PM, Mark K said:

Well, I know what cheese is, and I know what whiz is... 

Fun cheez whiz fact: there are obese yellowtail snapper near Nassau that KNOW what a can of Cheez Whiz is and WANT what's inside.

 

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