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Here's an interesting project: https://sailingmagazine.net/article-2353-bp-28.html

Bob Perry and Will Porter are revisiting the 1973 design brief of Bob's very successful Islander 28.

The early drawings and measurements look a wee bit conservative for my eye.  I'd like to see more boldness: add lightness, twin rudders, and a lifting keel, and maybe chines and a Manuard-style semi-scow bow  ...  but then maybe I'm just asking for a revival of the brilliant Andrews 28, which may not be the type of boat they plan.

28ft is a lovely size for a performance cruising boat, but the constraints make it hard to do it successfully.  It's early days yet, but this collaboration has a lot of potential for creating something as special as the 1973 boat.

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I'll share my thoughts on this as I'm the individual Bob has been working with on this design. Lot's of good points here- many questions that can't be answered.  That being said- Bob and I t

Norm: The proposed new NR was 35' L.O.D. and 14,000 lbs.. D/L 183 and SA/D 24.8. It's not a happy story. Doug called me late on a Friday afternoon. "Let 's do a new boat, a smaller version o

Singlehanding  in the pnw. Last 4 Sunday beer can races in the pnw saw top recorded speeds of 10, 13, 9, and 10 knots. 

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57 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I like the looks of it. Nothing so controversial or expensive looking as to scare away customers at the boat show. 

You may be right, Beer.  You know the North American boat trade much much better than i do.

But i think it's sad that what remains of the American new sailboat-buying market is so conservative.

The Islander 28 started production in 1973, which is 48 years ago.  Look back to 48 before that, and you're in 1925, twenty years before the Folkboat.

The I28 is a like a spaceship compared to a 1925 design.  French boat-buyers have moved on a similarly long way since 1973 -- look at the output of the likes of IDB, Maree Haute, Pogo Structures etc and even BendyToy's Seascape-derived Firsts.

It would be great to think that American buyers could be as bold.    And Bob could be the man to do that, because he has changed the game before.  His Valiant 40 was a radical breakthrough fast cruiser; in the 1990s he drew a bunch of breakthrough cruising sleds; Francis Lee rewrote the rulebook on skinny boats; and the carbon cutters have moved the goalposts on retro-look long keel cruisers.  I'd love to see @Bob Perry and @willp14335 tearing up the rulebook again in this accessible size of boat.

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On 10/10/2021 at 3:18 AM, hdra said:

Sounds like you're asking for a very different boat - the islander 28 was a great weekend cruiser, not a race boat...

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

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1 hour ago, Jackett said:

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

They look like more than a few inches, but far less than the 15 inches Bob has stated he prefers.    There are two choices for the fix - raise the coamings or lower the cockpit.    Raising the coamings that much would make the boat look awkward, and lowering the cockpit might not be possible due to the engine location - unless you added enough freeboard but then you are not really  lowering the cockpit but raising the deck.

After Bob posted the 15 inch rule for coamings a few years ago I took a tape measure out to my boat - exactly 15 inches.  Whew!

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1 hour ago, Jackett said:

And yet it doesn't have the cockpit of a weekend cruiser. Those part length coamings, not more than a few inches high, give nothing comfortable to lounge against, very little feeling of security for young children or non-sailing friends. Great cockpit for actively sailing a boat, but that's only one of the many roles a cockpit on a family weekend cruiser needs to fill.

Pogo30-1-1920x1280-1.thumb.jpg.8cb3c2bccb3fdf05a7366b4dd999356f.jpgYet again, the cockpit is a place where there is much to learn from the Pogo 30.   It has high canvas backrests which give cushioned support almost up to the shoulders, and are v comfortable.  But for a bunch of people actively sailing the boat, they can be removed in seconds to give a racing-style open deck.

Similar with the mainsheet.  The BP28's mainsheet lands 1973-style on a bridgedeck traveller, where it is out-of-reach of the helm but perfectly-placed to discomfort the bum of anyone sitting with the back against the coachroof and their feet stretched aft, and also ideally-placed to impede access to the companionway.  By contrast the Pogo has a much more efficient and less obtrusive almost-full-with traveller right at the stern, where it's in nobody's way, and where the traveller controls can be led neatly to the helm's hand.  The traveller is so long that you don't much need the sheet, but there are choices in how to rig the sheet; cruising-mode via the gooseneck to a coachroof winch for a clutter-free cockpit, or active-sail mode from mid-boom down to a cockpit sole jammer like a dinghy.  I talked to the owner of a Pogo 30 being used for demos, who explained that it was so easy to re-rig that the company switched the set-up for demos according to the type of customer they had that day.

The cockpit in these early drawings of the BP28 looks like something from a generation earlier than the Pogo's setup.

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On 10/9/2021 at 4:40 PM, TwoLegged said:

Here's an interesting project: https://sailingmagazine.net/article-2353-bp-28.html

Bob Perry and Will Porter are revisiting the 1973 design brief of Bob's very successful Islander 28.

The early drawings and measurements look a wee bit conservative for my eye.  I'd like to see more boldness: add lightness, twin rudders, and a lifting keel, and maybe chines and a Manuard-style semi-scow bow  ...  but then maybe I'm just asking for a revival of the brilliant Andrews 28, which may not be the type of boat they plan.

28ft is a lovely size for a performance cruising boat, but the constraints make it hard to do it successfully.  It's early days yet, but this collaboration has a lot of potential for creating something as special as the 1973 boat.

Geez, to me it looks like a brilliant family racer cruiser.  As much as "adding" boldness seems attractive, I think it limits the audience of who might buy such a boat.  Rather than comparing it to the Andrews 28 (which I really liked when I looked at it), but was doomed by its high build cost at the time, I think a better comparison boat is the equally brilliant S2 9.1, which does everything you could ask of a racer/cruiser pretty darn good.

The BP 28 has a longer waterline, more sail area, weighs less, carries more fuel and water, and looks to have a equally useful cruising comfy interior.  What's not to like?   Having owned a S2 9.1 for 5 years, this is exactly the type of new boat that is missing in today's market.  Sign me up!

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33 minutes ago, Crash said:

The BP 28 has a longer waterline, more sail area, weighs less, carries more fuel and water, and looks to have a equally useful cruising comfy interior.  What's not to like?   Having owned a S2 9.1 for 5 years, this is exactly the type of new boat that is missing in today's market.  Sign me up!

in a nutshell, Crash, what's not to like is that these drawings look to me like a good 1995 update on those older designs ... but 1995 was a quarter of a century ago, and design has moved on a long way, mostly driven by the shorthanded racing scene in the Vendee region.

This isn't boldness for its own sake.  Those 21st-century innovations that I describe above make a boat that's much more usable, and I reckon that they would significantly widen the audience by creating a boat with a bunch of desirable features that you can't get on the secondhand market.  Why pay new prices for a 1990s tribute band?

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You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants. I most certainly made zero attempt to follow fashion.

Mc inb profs.jpg

McCuddy SP 6-26.jpg

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9 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants.

Ah.  If it's a custom boat for a single client, then of course the client gets what the client wants, or there's no deal.  I was under the impression that this design sought a wider audience, but maybe I misread (or misinterpreted) the article.

Still, I fear that the client may regret putting a single rudder on such a broad transom.  

9 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I most certainly made zero attempt to follow fashion.

The features I was looking for come out of the function-driven shorthanded racing scene, not fashion.

 

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22 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

in a nutshell, Crash, what's not to like is that these drawings look to me like a good 1995 update on those older designs ... but 1995 was a quarter of a century ago, and design has moved on a long way, mostly driven by the shorthanded racing scene in the Vendee region.

This isn't boldness for its own sake.  Those 21st-century innovations that I describe above make a boat that's much more usable, and I reckon that they would significantly widen the audience by creating a boat with a bunch of desirable features that you can't get on the secondhand market.  Why pay new prices for a 1990s tribute band?

I totally (yet respectfully) disagree.  I specifically don't think they make the boat any more useable.  I think all boats are a collection of compromises.  How do twin rudders make a boat more useable?  Only if you've made the stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate.  But wide butt boats are not a win-win.  They are great when powering off on a reach, and add volume for more berthing aft, but at the cost of upwind feel and performance and added surface area and drag in light air...

And, at least for me, the "boldness" you describe leaves a boat horribly aesthetically challenged...I want a good looking boat.  Scow bow and big butt isn't (again in my opinion) good looking...

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16 minutes ago, Crash said:

I totally (yet respectfully) disagree.  I specifically don't think they make the boat any more useable.  I think all boats are a collection of compromises.  How do twin rudders make a boat more useable?  Only if you've made the stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate.

The drawings seem to me show a hull with a stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate when heeled much.   That's why I would want twin rudders on that hull.   As a secondary consideration, they would a) make for easier access over that open transom, and b) be easier to mount securely.

YMMV.

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I'm not going to debate anyone who's mind is already made up and static. Waste of my time. Where did I say this is a "custom design"? You need to read more carefully.

I have drawn another version with inboard rudder. I could just as easily draw a version with twin rudders. At this stage we don't have a hull plug yet so anything is possible and maybe all those rudder styles can be offered. We'll see. Maybe we'll do a carbon fiber version. It has been discussed. At this stage, this is the boat the client wants to market.

The I-28 was drawn during the early IOR days but it was not designed as an IOR boat. It is IOR-ish. It was designed to be a fun and comfy small family cruiser that you could PHRF race if so inclined. A Seattle I-28 did very well on the race course. I think it was called SYMPHONY. I raced a Point Hudson (Point Wilson?) race on it and we won our class in moderate air. Owner's wife cooked a fabulous dinner on the beat home. About 2 years later the Ranger 28, Mull design, came out. It was designed to be an IOR race boat. Lots of tumblehome. The I-28 was the faster boat in a breeze but slower than the Ranger in light air. They sold 600 I-28's. Don't know how many R-28's they sold. Google says 130.

Islander 28 blue drift.jpg

Islander 28 bow.jpg

Islander 28 stern shot.jpg

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Yet again, the cockpit is a place where there is much to learn from the Pogo 30. 

Wrong place, you forgot the basic assumption here, it is "Euro boat" so it is crap with nothing to learn from!

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8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Wrong place, you forgot the basic assumption here, it is "Euro boat" so it is crap with nothing to learn from!

Nice to see Europe still has its inferiority complex in place (purple font used here!).  Its not that there is nothing to learn from.  There is much to be learned.  But that doesn't mean that what works in Europe, works here as well.  And as a sailboat is a leisure craft, and I am recreating on it, why can't I do that the way I want to, on a boat built the way I want it?  There is nothing wrong with Euro boats being different from American boats.  It might simply mean we have decided on a different set of compromises.  AFAIKT, there is no one "perfect" boat, or "perfect" design that works best for everyone.  It's ok to be different.  It ok to like a particular design style, and not like another.

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2 minutes ago, Crash said:

Nice to see Europe still has its inferiority complex in place (purple font used here!).  Its not that there is nothing to learn from.  There is much to be learned.  But that doesn't mean that what works in Europe, works here as well.  And as a sailboat is a leisure craft, and I am recreating on it, why can't I do that the way I want to, on a boat built the way I want it?  There is nothing wrong with Euro boats being different from American boats.  It might simply mean we have decided on a different set of compromises.  AFAIKT, there is no one "perfect" boat, or "perfect" design that works best for everyone.  It's ok to be different.  It ok to like a particular design style, and not like another.

I do like the canvas seatbacks. Looks like a "seatback stanchion" is required. I think that could be done easily on my boat...

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36 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

The drawings seem to me show a hull with a stern so wide that when heeled, a single rudder would ventilate when heeled much.   That's why I would want twin rudders on that hull.   As a secondary consideration, they would a) make for easier access over that open transom, and b) be easier to mount securely.

YMMV.

Leggs, 

Go look at the Sta 16 drawing in the Sailing Magazine article.  There is a lot of careful and nuanced shape there.  Yes, from the top view the stern looks wide.  From the water's view, I suspect not nearly so wide.

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8 minutes ago, Crash said:

Leggs, 

Go look at the Sta 16 drawing in the Sailing Magazine article.  There is a lot of careful and nuanced shape there.  Yes, from the top view the stern looks wide.  From the water's view, I suspect not nearly so wide.

Yep.

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

I do like the canvas seatbacks. Looks like a "seatback stanchion" is required. I think that could be done easily on my boat...

I agree Raz'r, the canvas seat backs (for one) look like a idea well worth exploring...

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22 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I'm not going to debate anyone who's mind is already made up and static. Waste of my time.

On the contrary, Bob, my mind is open to innovations.  My comments are about a design which seems less open to them.  

22 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Where did I say this is a "custom design"? You need to read more carefully.

I did read carefully, Bob.  The sailing mag article is vague ("a new client looking for a boatbuilding project" could refer to one-off or series), but the comment below about "what he wants", which seems to me to describe a client for a one-off.  You refer to what "he wants", whereas I assume that someone planning series production would be looking at what they reckon the market wants or could be persuaded to want (which is @Crash's point).

1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants.

 

12 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Wrong place, you forgot the basic assumption here, it is "Euro boat" so it is crap with nothing to learn from!

I hope you are wrong, Pano.  But I fear you may be right.

1970s American boat design was a massive hive of innovation.  That no longer seems to be the case.

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Leggs:

I thought I made it clear from the start that this design is intended to be a new version of the old I-28, a production boat. You can parse words all you like. I have drawn several boats for this client. If it were to be a custom for for him it would be a very different boat.

 

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

On the contrary, Bob, my mind is open to innovations.  My comments are about a design which seems less open to them.  

Hey Leggs, what makes twin rudders, travelers aft of the helm, wider sterns or even scow bows "innovative" as most if not all of those features can be found on sailboats (or if not sailboats,  powerboats/ships) dating back multiple decades if not 100's of years?  There is nothing innovative to them.  They are (simply) an answer to a design challenge or issue...maybe combining them on one boat is "novel" but innovative?  I don't really think so...but I realize this too, is just my opinion.

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6 minutes ago, Crash said:

Leggs, 

Go look at the Sta 16 drawing in the Sailing Magazine article.  There is a lot of careful and nuanced shape there.  Yes, from the top view the stern looks wide.  From the water's view, I suspect not nearly so wide.

Crash, do you mean this drawing? https://sailingmagazine.net/images/BP-sailplan.4747.jpg

I just see a plan, not sections, so we can only guess what's happening by way of volume carried aft.  However, AFAICS, there is some narrowing of beam aft, but not much.  So unless there is very radical tapering of the waterline, that rudder is going to get lifted a lot once heel gets non-trivial.

 

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1 minute ago, TwoLegged said:

Crash, do you mean this drawing? https://sailingmagazine.net/images/BP-sailplan.4747.jpg

I just see a plan, not sections, so we can only guess what's happening by way of volume carried aft.  However, AFAICS, there is some narrowing of beam aft, but not much.  So unless there is very radical tapering of the waterline, that rudder is going to get lifted a lot once heel gets non-trivial.

 

Nope, I mean this one...

 

BP-sections.4751.jpg

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1 minute ago, Crash said:

Hey Leggs, what makes twin rudders, travelers aft of the helm, wider sterns or even scow bows "innovative" as most if not all of those features can be found on sailboats (or if not sailboats,  powerboats/ships) dating back multiple decades if not 100's of years?  There is nothing innovative to them.  They are (simply) an answer to a design challenge or issue...maybe combining them on one boat is "novel" but innovative?  I don't really think so...but I realize this too, is just my opinion.

Crash, nearly everything in boat design has been done before.   Hey, we're even back a lot of the way to gaff rigs!   Plus, since the 1970s, we have seen the return of bowsprits, plumb bows, non-overlapping headsails (thank God!), full forward sections, and hard dodgers on racing boats.

The innovation consists of combining them in new ways with new materials.   That innovation (or set of new combinations, if you prefer) is what makes a 2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 so different from an early 1990s boat.

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

Nope, I mean this one...

 

BP-sections.4751.jpg

Thanks, Crash.  Still looks to me like there will be a fair amount of lift in those aft quarters.  Not as much as on a chined boat, but still enough to lose some grip from a central rudder.

The stern doesn't look to me to be much less voluminous than the 1994 First 260 Spirit, which had twin rudders.

 

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Crash, nearly everything in boat design has been done before.   Hey, we're even back a lot of the way to gaff rigs!   Plus, since the 1970s, we have seen the return of bowsprits, plumb bows, non-overlapping headsails (thank God!), full forward sections, and hard dodgers on racing boats.

The innovation consists of combining them in new ways with new materials.   That innovation (or set of new combinations, if you prefer) is what makes a 2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 so different from an early 1990s boat.

Ok, that, I'll agree with...

That said, I'm not sure the 2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat is the right mix of attributes for a family racer/cruiser.  Bob's Islander 28 rates 210 in PHRF.  My S2 9.1 rated 135.  This boat ought be faster than the 9.1.  How much better than that can you ask for?  Besides...Too much faster pushes the boat up into the "A" Fleet in many places, where the level of competition and expenses (amount of money someone else is paying to win) can go up quickly...and make for a less "fun" family sailing/racing environment.  I've raced in all 3 PHRF fleets on the Chesapeake Bay.  PHRF C (162 and up) in one of those "old Beneteau Firsts" (a First 30E) and in PHRF B (Santana 30/30 and S2 9.1) and PHRF A (J/109).  I taught my kids to race on the J/109 and S2 9.1.  Too fast/to high up in the PHRF Fleet structure can actually be seen as a negative.  Plus you'll be racing against bigger boats with bigger rigs, getting waterlined, and etc.  

That's the fleet I'm (and most American's) are going to be racing in.  I want a boat that I can have fun with, race with family and friends with.  This would fit that set of requirements almost perfectly...realizing there is no sure thing as "perfect" :rolleyes:

 

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Thanks, Crash.  Still looks to me like there will be a fair amount of lift in those aft quarters.  Not as much as on a chined boat, but still enough to lose some grip from a central rudder.

The stern doesn't look to me to be much less voluminous than the 1994 First 260 Spirit, which had twin rudders.

 

While its larger brother the First 310 had a single rudder...I had a 94 that sailed just fine!

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/first-310-beneteau

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

That said, I'm not sure the 2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat is the right mix of attributes for a family racer/cruiser.

Good point, but it addresses slightly different issues to those I was looking at.  Twin rudders don't make the boat faster overall, they just make it easier to handle and  if they are transom-mounted they also make it easier to board.  Traveller aft makes zero difference to speed, but a lot of difference to ease of handling and risk of crew injury.

Personally, I'm with Bill Lee's fast-is-fun motto.  But even if this 28-footer doesn't get the added lightness to let it break away downwind, the addition of some 21st-century innovations which would make it much easier and safer to live with.  for example, the traveller-on-bridgedeck is an uncomfortable, dangerous feature that should have gone long ago.  A family racer-cruiser needs ease-of-use, and the innovations bring that.

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Sigh...:(

I'm not going to try to tell someone who has designed as many great boats as Bob Perry has, that he "needs" 2 rudders.  I'm pretty sure Bob is perfectly capable of making those decisions and tradeoffs without any input from Peter Morrison.  If the boat "needed" 2 rudders, he'd have put 2 rudders on it.  Not sure why you think it needs 2, other than "its the cool current rage on boats pretending to look like a "2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat" 

I've owned and sailed boats with travelers one the bridgedeck, just infront of the helm, and behind the helm.  All have pluses and minuses.  I wouldn't call any "dangerous", and I don't think any make the handling easier or harder.  I've owned 2 boats with center mounted transom hung rudders (J-24, S2 9.1), and never found them to create a huge "boarding issue" either.  Yes split rudders might make it easier, but again, all boats are a series of compromises.  You seem convinced yours are the best ones.  I feel different.  Neither of us is necessarily wrong, it just means we have different views, and would buy different boats! :rolleyes:

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For the record I have admired the POGO line ever since I became aware of it. 35 years ago that's the kind of boat I would have liked to own. No point in me trying to do a POGO today. It's been done.

I'm not one to pay attention to the critics. Never have been going back to high school. I've just focused on doing things my way. Given my current circumstances here at the shack I'd say it has worked out quite well. I have no professional regrets.

Here is my current new toy: The DEGRITTER. An ultrasonic record cleaner using proprietary technology to produce tiny bubbles that can deep clean your record albums. It dries them too.This $3,000 machine is the best available and works miracles on all my records.  Next time you stop by the3 shack bring a record or two. I'll Degritter-ize it for you. It's that thing that looks like a toaster sitting on the drawing board.

Office clutter.jpg

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The most interestng thing so far in the thread is getting the text to wrap around the small picture of the Pogo. How do you do that? The hyperlink says is it a jpeg but when copied it appears to be a text clipping. Maybe the first time I've seen this on a SA posting.

Ok the Digritter is a little interesting too, if preserving antiques is your thing. 

 

5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Pogo30-1-1920x1280-1.thumb.jpg.8cb3c2bccb3fdf05a7366b4dd999356f.jpgYet again, the cockpit is a place where there is much to learn from the Pogo 30.   It has high canvas backrests which give cushioned support almost up to the shoulders, and are v comfortable.  But for a bunch of people actively sailing the boat, they can be removed in seconds to give a racing-style open deck.

Similar with the mainsheet.  The BP28's mainsheet lands 1973-style on a bridgedeck traveller, where it is out-of-reach of the helm but perfectly-placed to discomfort the bum of anyone sitting with the back against the coachroof and their feet stretched aft, and also ideally-placed to impede access to the companionway.  By contrast the Pogo has a much more efficient and less obtrusive almost-full-with traveller right at the stern, where it's in nobody's way, and where the traveller controls can be led neatly to the helm's hand.  The traveller is so long that you don't much need the sheet, but there are choices in how to rig the sheet; cruising-mode via the gooseneck to a coachroof winch for a clutter-free cockpit, or active-sail mode from mid-boom down to a cockpit sole jammer like a dinghy.  I talked to the owner of a Pogo 30 being used for demos, who explained that it was so easy to re-rig that the company switched the set-up for demos according to the type of customer they had that day.

The cockpit in these early drawings of the BP28 looks like something from a generation earlier than the Pogo's setup.

 

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Yep DDW. There is no recorded sound like pure analog sound. It's my hobby. But you have to have the hearing to tell the difference.

Just another way to have fun.

 

I put removable canvas seat backs on MERIDIAN 40 years ago. They worked very well.

IMG_2378[1].jpg

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39 minutes ago, Crash said:

Not sure why you think it needs 2, other than "its the cool current rage on boats pretending to look like a "2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat" 

Sigh.  Sometimes the internet really is a write-only medium.

I think it would be better with two rudders because it seems to me have enough beam aft that s ingle rudder would lose grip when heeled.  You may not agree with that assessment, but since i set that out clearly, the "not sure why" comment comes across as snarky.

44 minutes ago, Crash said:

If the boat "needed" 2 rudders, he'd have put 2 rudders on it.

I am not so sure about that.  AFAIK, no monohull built to a Perry design has had such a wide beam aft, and no Perry-designed monohull has had two rudders.  Have i missed something in Bob's huge and wonderful design archive?

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Nice to see Europe still has its inferiority complex in place (purple font used here!).  Its not that there is nothing to learn from.  There is much to be learned.  But that doesn't mean that what works in Europe, works here as well.  And as a sailboat is a leisure craft, and I am recreating on it, why can't I do that the way I want to, on a boat built the way I want it?  There is nothing wrong with Euro boats being different from American boats.  It might simply mean we have decided on a different set of compromises.  AFAIKT, there is no one "perfect" boat, or "perfect" design that works best for everyone.  It's ok to be different.  It ok to like a particular design style, and not like another.

My statement was ironic and I was gently poking fun @TwoLegged , showing to a North American crowd a European design/product as an example to follow is not often a recipe for success. I suspect that some in the US are still laughing at 1970s cars designed by Citroen while here in Europe they are collectible!

I will take the Pogo over a 1990s style hull as once you've steered with 2 fingers a powerful hull that can be pushed while staying on rails, it is hard to go back and I suspect that many Europeans would react like me. Nevertheless if @Bob Perry has designed a boat that will sell well in the US, he's right whatever the actual merits of the 2 boats!

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45 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Yep DDW. There is no recorded sound like pure analog sound. It's my hobby. But you have to have the hearing to tell the difference.

Well as you know I am a "show me the data" kind of guy, and there has been an overwhelming preponderance of double blind tests in which trained musicians, audiophiles, and audiologists could not tell the difference. 

But on boats: not sure why every boat has to be like a Pogo. Plenty of room in the sea for an I28, even today. 

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32 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

My statement was ironic and I was gently poking fun @TwoLegged , showing to a North American crowd a European design/product as an example to follow is not often a recipe for success. I suspect that some in the US are still laughing at 1970s cars designed by Citroen while here in Europe they are collectible!

I enjoyed the joke. :)

Mind you, Citroens were under-appreciated even in Europe.  A relative had Citroen CXs from when they first came out until after production ended, and they were massively superior to everything else.    Sadly, most buyers were too conservative to choose one, and their maker never again made anything remotely as wonderful :(

But back on topic.  I fear that Pano may be right that Americans aren't ready for powerful modern hulls, but I winder why that is.  As I noted before, 1970s American boat designers were hugely innovative, probably more so than Yurpeens.   Bill Lapworth reinventing the offshore production boat, Doug Peterson upending IOR, the Moore 24 turning yer club boat into a planing rocket, Bill Lee going planing offshore, and then the J/24 taking the world by storm.

I have a hunch that this shift may be more socio-economic than aesthetic.  My hypothesis goes like this: The USA's spurt of 1960s/1970s boatbuilding seems to have been bigger than in most of Europe, leaving a bigger pool of used boats.  Meanwhile the economic changes which began in the 1980s have been more pronounced in the USA than in the EU, so the pool of Americans who have the cash to buy a new boat and the time to use it is way smaller than in Europe (Europeans get roughly twice as much leave).  So the market for new boats in the USA is dominated by older buyers, who have the cash to buy and the time to use a boat ... and they make more conservative choices than the younger buyers of new boats in Europe.  I'd be interested to see any relevant data

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The audio world and the sailing world have a lot in common, lots of parallels. Audiophiles argue tubes (valves for the Euros here) vs solid state. I have both systems. The sailors argue monohull vs multihull. If you prefer tubes you debate what tubes, NOS (New Old Stock) or new tubes. I have both but now I am listening to new Russian Sovtec tubes. Sailors who prefer multihulls argue catamaran vs trimaran. I could go on: choice of rig, split or single mast, choice of cartridge, moving magnet vs moving coil. If the sailor chooses a sloop rig you can argue cutter vs fractional. If the audiophile chooses a moving coil they will argue about low output vs high output. Both are antique pursuits. Sailing is not a modern mode of transportation. Analog is not a modern way to listen to music. People who can't tell the difference in boats or sound are just not educated enough to know the difference. Or maybe the sailor doesn't care. He's happy in his Rawson 30. If you get sea sick every time you go out none of the differences will make it fun. If you have hearing deficiencies, many do and don't know it. you'll never hear the difference so why bother. In the end they are both just silly hobbies that don't stand up to objective scrutiny. But for some people they are a lot of fun and may improve one's quality of life.

 

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2 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

There is no recorded sound like pure analog sound. It's my hobby. But you have to have the hearing to tell the difference.

Just another way to have fun.

IMG_2378[1].jpg

Bob, that is a lovely cartridge and the heavy orange vinyl looks yummy, but I would modestly suggest that you need to graduate to reel-to-reel tape on a good machine - say a Studer A810 2-track - to really up your analogue audio game.

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21 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Have i missed something in Bob's huge and wonderful design archive?"

Yes you have. I'll leave it to you to figure out the boats.

Sigh.

That translates roughly as "I could give you an answer in seconds, but I prefer to be obnoxious by making you go hunt so that I can make snarky comments if you don't find the exact example that I intended" :( 

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BP also works on projects that are not entirely his from the drawing board and has designed elements for them. At least that’s what I think from his past posts. 
 

Also, I don’t have any problem with Bob speaking his mind the way he wants. He has done the miles and has a huge following, so if the boat needed twin rudders, it would have twin rudders. You were challenging him and he gave you a challenge in return. He doesn’t have a “kiss ass” mode.

 

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59 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sigh.

That translates roughly as "I could give you an answer in seconds, but I prefer to be obnoxious by making you go hunt so that I can make snarky comments if you don't find the exact example that I intended" :( 

The maestro is just doing it for your education and edification Legs. Get to work!

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Sailing is not a modern mode of transportation. Analog is not a modern way to listen to music. People who can't tell the difference in boats or sound are just not educated enough to know the difference. Or maybe the sailor doesn't care. He's happy in his Rawson 30. If you get sea sick every time you go out none of the differences will make it fun. If you have hearing deficiencies, many do and don't know it. you'll never hear the difference so why bother. In the end they are both just silly hobbies that don't stand up to objective scrutiny. But for some people they are a lot of fun and may improve one's quality of life.

 

This takes relativism farther than many are willing to go. Some things in sound and sailing are subjective, some are objective. Is a Pogo 30 a faster boat than an I32? This we can objectively test. It a Pogo 30 a better boat than an I32? This is subjective, and the result depends on the criteria of the judge. Can a good analog recording be reliably discriminated from a good digital recording? This be can be objectively tested (and has been disproven). Do the analog distortions audible on a vinyl record make it a better listening experience? That is subjective, the answer will depend on the preferences of the listener. 

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27 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

The maestro is just doing it for your education and edification Legs. Get to work!

Nah, I don't play that game.  Once people start that sort of shit, I'm out.  Which may be what he wanted. 

I much prefer the other Bob Perry, the nice one from WLYDO days who enjoyed discussions and debate, and who wrote of how he learnt from it all.  That Bob didn't play this sort of game.

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"This be can be objectively tested (and has been disproven)." Probably by one of your "panels of experts". Our world seems to be full of "panels of experts" willing to take whichever side benefits them. I agree it is very subjective. Like the difference in the sound of a Telecaster and a PRS. But a person with good hearing, trained to know the difference will pick out the difference in a heart beat with or without a blind fold. Maybe your panels are panels of audiofools not audiophiles.

I'll give you an example: Many years ago while my band was on the road, my upstairs "room mate" bought some new hi-fi speakers. He worked for Boeing. He was an electrical engineer and his specialty was antennae design. He was so proud of his new speakers. I listened to he new speakers. They sounded good and they got me in the mood to upgrade my own speakers. I did. I bought some JBL 100's. This is probably 1967. You can still buy them today. I played my new speakers for him and he was blown away. I asked him how he chose his speakers., He said he studied all the data and chose by the graphed frequency response curves or something to that effect. He was feeling a bit sheepish at that point. He asked me how I chose the JBL 100's. I said "Iistened to them."

If you don't have trained ears all you can do is rely on numbers. Trained ears work better.

 

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Oh Leggs, stop projecting. You sound defeated. Buck up! I have never been "the nice Bob Perry".

I can think of three of my boats off the top of my head that would qualify for twin rudders but did not get them: INBOX, the boat designed to fit in a container with no taper aft. The Roy Dunbar 32'er, the one Derek Bottles is rebuilding now, with almost no taper aft. The "geezer daysailer" very broad aft. Maybe throw the FT10 in too. I got around having twin rudders by having one deep rudder. Did it work? Nobody has complained.

I got this email this morning:

"Charlie Reynolds

Today I was out in 23-26 knots with a long fetch with big waves, and I was reminded how well FT10 #71 handled conditions like that (impecably), and better than the 30,000lb 46' "ocean racer" that I was on... Great boats"

Flying Tiger 10m up.jpg

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12 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Nah, I don't play that game.  Once people start that sort of shit, I'm out.  Which may be what he wanted. 

I much prefer the other Bob Perry, the nice one from WLYDO days who enjoyed discussions and debate, and who wrote of how he learnt from it all.  That Bob didn't play this sort of game.

Again, to be fair, he didn't start that shit, YOU DID. 

When I said:  "I'm not going to try to tell someone who has designed as many great boats as Bob Perry has, that he "needs" 2 rudders.  I'm pretty sure Bob is perfectly capable of making those decisions and tradeoffs without any input from Peter Morrison.  If the boat "needed" 2 rudders, he'd have put 2 rudders on it. "

You said: "I am not so sure about that." 

You then went on to say "AFAIK, no monohull built to a Perry design has had such a wide beam aft, and no Perry-designed monohull has had two rudders.  Have i missed something in Bob's huge and wonderful design archive?"

Whether Bob has or hasn't yet designed a monohull with a transom so broad it needs two rudders doesn't mean he doesn't know when such a boat would need them.  The fact that he has done such work, and you happen to be unaware is not an excuse for casting doubt on his professional ability, which is what you did.

You could try apologizing, and saying you didn't mean it to come out the way it did.  And asking if he has designed such boats, rather than saying "AFAIK he hasn't" which was presumptive.

OBTW, when I said "Not sure why you think it needs 2, other than "its the cool current rage on boats pretending to look like a "2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat" though I didn't mean to be snarky, I can see now that I was, and I apologize for that.  It was undeserved.

 

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There seems a bit of irony there when someone says, "It isn't innovation if it isn't "X". And then follows up with, "Your social, economic system doesn't allow you to appreciate my amazing ideas of "innovation". 

Did I miss anything? 

One should avoid the "banking" model of education, if possible.

 

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8 minutes ago, Crash said:

You could try apologizing, and saying you didn't mean it to come out the way it did.  And asking if he has designed such boats, rather than saying "AFAIK he hasn't" which was presumptive.

You somehow managed to miss my next sentence, which made it clear that I was not being presumptive.  I have bolded it here:

4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I am not so sure about that.  AFAIK, no monohull built to a Perry design has had such a wide beam aft, and no Perry-designed monohull has had two rudders.  Have i missed something in Bob's huge and wonderful design archive?

And thanks for this :) 

11 minutes ago, Crash said:

OBTW, when I said "Not sure why you think it needs 2, other than "its the cool current rage on boats pretending to look like a "2021 Mini 650/Classe40/IMOCA60 type of boat" though I didn't mean to be snarky, I can see now that I was, and I apologize for that.  It was undeserved.

 

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10 minutes ago, Elegua said:

There seems a bit of irony there when someone says, "It isn't innovation if it isn't "X". And then follows up with, "Your social, economic system doesn't allow you to appreciate my amazing ideas of "innovation". 

Did I miss anything? 

You only missed the entire point of what I wrote.  Other than that, you did fine.

They aren't my ideas.  They are the new norm, used by most of the leading European designers.

The sailing boat explosion of the 60s and 70s came in an era of rapidly growing mass affluence.  It's odd that someone would try to take offence at the observation that the economy is very different now, and hence the market for a big capital investment in a leisure item has changed ... but some people like offence-taking.

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I like the design and I’m sure that rudder has sufficient bite to hold it through a deep heeling angle. I think the expanding cockpit coamings are good for access around the tiller. The aft swept spreaders, no backstay and fathead are nice modern looking upgrades. 

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

He asked me how I chose the JBL 100's. I said "Iistened to them."

That's how I selected the components of the system I have had since 1977.

I took a recording that was heavy on the high frequency end - anybody can reproduce good bass frequencies - and I went from store to store listening to combinations I thought looked good. Listening to the same record on each gave everything a common baseline.

The sales reps must have regarded me as a real pain in the ass but it really worked. I ended up with Marantz amp & tuner, Technics turntable (should have got another Thorens but...) a Stanton cartridge and huge Altec 14 speakers.

State of the art then and cost about 2 months pay but it was worth the trouble. Best sound of any stereo I ever heard.

Now I can't hear worth shit so its sound quality is but a memory.

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57 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That's how I selected the components of the system I have had since 1977.

I took a recording that was heavy on the high frequency end - anybody can reproduce good bass frequencies - and I went from store to store listening to combinations I thought looked good. Listening to the same record on each gave everything a common baseline.

The sales reps must have regarded me as a real pain in the ass but it really worked. I ended up with Marantz amp & tuner, Technics turntable (should have got another Thorens but...) a Stanton cartridge and huge Altec 14 speakers.

State of the art then and cost about 2 months pay but it was worth the trouble. Best sound of any stereo I ever heard.

Now I can't hear worth shit so its sound quality is but a memory.

Same deal here. I bought some Kef 101 monitors back in 1986 and they still sound spectacular. About 15 years ago, I upgraded my electronics to a used Naim preamp, power supply, and amp and that cured me of any electronic 2-foot-itis. I'd probably have to drop $4K or more today to do better.

About 5 years ago the kids started complaining about my "dinosaur stereo" that couldn't connect to anything so I hooked the Naim gear up to a $30 Google Chromecast Audio and now the kids can play Spotify from their iPhones over wifi. And they can't believe how good it sounds compared to their crappy little bluetooth speekers and laptops. Dad for the win.

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53 minutes ago, IStream said:

Same deal here. I bought some Kef 101 monitors back in 1986 and they still sound spectacular. About 15 years ago, I upgraded my electronics to a used Naim preamp, power supply, and amp and that cured me of any electronic 2-foot-itis. I'd probably have to drop $4K or more today to do better.

About 5 years ago the kids started complaining about my "dinosaur stereo" that couldn't connect to anything so I hooked the Naim gear up to a $30 Google Chromecast Audio and now the kids can play Spotify from their iPhones over wifi. And they can't believe how good it sounds compared to their crappy little bluetooth speekers and laptops. Dad for the win.

KEF makes wonderful speakers. I miss the set I had. Never should have sold them.  

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

Same deal here. I bought some Kef 101 monitors back in 1986 and they still sound spectacular. About 15 years ago, I upgraded my electronics to a used Naim preamp, power supply, and amp and that cured me of any electronic 2-foot-itis. I'd probably have to drop $4K or more today to do better.

About 5 years ago the kids started complaining about my "dinosaur stereo" that couldn't connect to anything so I hooked the Naim gear up to a $30 Google Chromecast Audio and now the kids can play Spotify from their iPhones over wifi. And they can't believe how good it sounds compared to their crappy little bluetooth speekers and laptops. Dad for the win.

But they're still inputting that shitty compressed digital signal.

Sound quality seems to not even be a thing anymore for the masses.

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13 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

But they're still inputting that shitty compressed digital signal.

Sound quality seems to not even be a thing anymore for the masses.

Yup, but I've gotta admit that whatever compression algorithms they're using these days are pretty damned impressive. Either that or they've got bandwidth to burn. In any case, it's not the bad old days of 16 bits sampled at 44.1 KHz and then compressed within an inch of its life until it sounds like AM radio.

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

But they're still inputting that shitty compressed digital signal.

Sound quality seems to not even be a thing anymore for the masses.

 

5 hours ago, IStream said:

Yup, but I've gotta admit that whatever compression algorithms they're using these days are pretty damned impressive. Either that or they've got bandwidth to burn. In any case, it's not the bad old days of 16 bits sampled at 44.1 KHz and then compressed within an inch of its life until it sounds like AM radio.

Even the worst of early 16/44.1 digital still sounds better than an MP3 version of the same recording. MP3 at 320 bps is OK for bandwidth-limited streaming like Spotify. If you must compress audio, use a lossless format such as FLAC. Early digital converters often sounded brittle but even entry level AD/DA converters are pretty good today. When I listen to 24/96 recordings, I have reached the limits of my ears - anything better I just can't hear. And I still love the sound of 1/4" analogue tape at 15 IPS even though the science tells me that it is not at the same fidelity level as digital...

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There is a huge surge in the popularity of "vinyl". As younger music lovers discover the limitations of streaming digital music, despite the convenience, they are coming back to analog. Go to the web site for MUSIC DIRECT and check out how many turntables they offer. I'll tell you, 26 pages, each page featuring several turntables running from $400 to $15,000. In fact you can spend over $200,000 USD on a turntable. In the MUSIC DIRECT catalog there are 16 pages of cartridges (the little thingy that holds the stylus (needle)) ranging from around $100 to over $10,000. Vintage turntables from the '60's an early'70's are highly prized as are vintage cartridges like the Sure V-15. There are pages and pages of new albums many new recordings, many "re-issued" many "re-mastered" ranging from around $30 to $350 for the Village Vanguard Bill Evans sessions box set. I bought this box set two years ago for $120, today $350. I go to a site called DISCOGS for my hard to find lp's. It's kind of an open market place were sellers all over the world connect with buyers. They list the albums, give a quality rating, an availability rating and a price range. A much sought after  original Japanese pressing of one of Chet Baker's last performances is listed as selling as high as $2,500 (used!) and  availability listed as "never". I bought the Japanese reissue for $100 new from a  Dutch seller. Yep, it's a whacky world out there and a lot of rewarding fun.

Istream: I have all NAIM components in my solid state system, including the NAIM Superline phono pre-amp with external power supply. I have a Scottish built LINN LP12 turntable with a Lyra Skala low output, line contact nude diamond moving coil cartridge. I have a KOETSU Black as a back up cartridge. Most people I sit down to hear my system start with, "Holy shit!"

Jon B.: I'd love to hear your system. Old MARANTZ components are highly prized as are TECHNICS and THORENS turntables which you can have refurbished by guys who make a living bringing the old gear back to new. I just had my cartridge re-tipped and cleaned up for $450.

film 3.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

There is a huge surge in the popularity of "vinyl". As younger music lovers discover the limitations of streaming digital music, despite the convenience, they are coming back to analog. Go to the web site for MUSIC DIRECT and check out how many turntables they offer. I'll tell you, 26 pages, each page featuring several turntables running from $400 to $15,000. In fact you can spend over $200,000 USD on a turntable. In the MUSIC DIRECT catalog there are 16 pages of cartridges (the little thingy that holds the stylus (needle)) ranging from around $100 to over $10,000. Vintage turntables from the '60's an early'70's are highly prized as are vintage cartridges like the Sure V-15. There are pages and pages of new albums many new recordings, many "re-issued" many "re-mastered" ranging from around $30 to $350 for the Village Vanguard Bill Evans sessions box set. I bought this box set two years ago for $120, today $350. I go to a site called DISCOGS for my hard to find lp's. It's kind of an open market place were sellers all over the world connect with buyers. They list the albums, give a quality rating, an availability rating and a price range. A much sought after  original Japanese pressing of one of Chet Baker's last performances is listed as selling as high as $2,500 (used!) and  availability listed as "never". I bought the Japanese reissue for $100 new from a  Dutch seller. Yep, it's a whacky world out there and a lot of rewarding fun.

Istream: I have all NAIM components in my solid state system, including the NAIM Superline phono pre-amp with external power supply. I have a Scottish built LINN LP12 turntable with a Lyra Skala low output, line contact nude diamond moving coil cartridge. I have a KOETSU Black as a back up cartridge. Most people I sit down to hear my system start with, "Holy shit!"

Jon B.: I'd love to hear your system. Old MARANTZ components are highly prized as are TECHNICS and THORENS turntables which you can have refurbished by guys who make a living bringing the old gear back to new. I just had my cartridge re-tipped and cleaned up for $450.

film 3.jpg

Thanks for this @Bob Perry, my 15 year old is getting into vinyl right now, and I didn't really know where to start (we already have a starter turntable, was more where can we find the vinyl!)

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Raz'r:

There are lots of internet places to buy records. I have used about five sellers. I have had very good luck with used lp's. I try to buy "mint" condition.

For new lp's I'd go to MUSIC DIRECT:

 https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&searchtext=Any&CategoryID=17&OrderBy=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5JSLBhCxARIsAHgO2SemTO1GU0NEXJMCfZet3fD-XwuI3cIl3lGSETYiYogpyFghsncVZ4AaAtqVEALw_wcB

Amazon works as does Ebay. DISCOGS has a huge selection of all kinds of music.

I bought both of my boys turntables when they were young.

Where are you?

 

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26 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Raz'r:

There are lots of internet places to buy records. I have used about five sellers. I have had very good luck with used lp's. I try to buy "mint" condition.

For new lp's I'd go to MUSIC DIRECT:

 https://store.acousticsounds.com/index.cfm?get=results&searchtext=Any&CategoryID=17&OrderBy=2&gclid=Cj0KCQjw5JSLBhCxARIsAHgO2SemTO1GU0NEXJMCfZet3fD-XwuI3cIl3lGSETYiYogpyFghsncVZ4AaAtqVEALw_wcB

Amazon works as does Ebay. DISCOGS has a huge selection of all kinds of music.

I bought both of my boys turntables when they were young.

Where are you?

 

SF Bay Area...

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16 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

"This be can be objectively tested (and has been disproven)." Probably by one of your "panels of experts". Our world seems to be full of "panels of experts" willing to take whichever side benefits them. I agree it is very subjective. Like the difference in the sound of a Telecaster and a PRS. But a person with good hearing, trained to know the difference will pick out the difference in a heart beat with or without a blind fold. Maybe your panels are panels of audiofools not audiophiles.

There have been too many tests, over too many years, before too many panels of experts both real and self-proclaimed, all leading to the same conclusion. On a blind test, with good equipment, there is no audible difference because all the relevant information and only the relevant information is there. 

Now, many of y'all are comparing streamed, compressed, crappy digital played through 1" $2 speakers with very high end analog. Sure there'll be a difference. Or a vinyl record playback to a CD. Those are not a proper comparison between analog and digital recording, mixing in many unrelated variables. And the fact that someone will pay $2500 for an old piece of plastic says nothing in a world where people will pay tens of thousands for a fossilized dinosaur turd. 

Bottom line is, if listening to 33 1/3s turns your prop then do it. Most of what people listen to these days is such abject crap that the artifacts of storage and reproduction can only improve it anyway. Garbage in, garbage out. 

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To bring this back to the subject at hand, and knowing BP can't reveal the client yet, one wonders if there are enough clues in this thread to start to figure out who might be bringing the 28 ft Fractional Sloop to market?  And if there are, is it appropriate to speculate, or should we all just be patient?

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Crash:

I'm not comfortable putting the client's name out without first getting permission. He is a Portland, OR gent who owns a couple of marinas and is good friends with Steve Rander, prior owner of SCHOONER CREEK. I certainly don't mind if you speculate. That would be fun to watch. 

 

Passport 40 beautys.jpg

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Another interesting site for audio gear is https://www.vinylengine.com/

My gear, which I bought in the 80's, is a Concord CMC-300 high-output moving coil cartridge on a Thorens TD45 turntable. Luxman L85V amp with Celestion Ditton 552 speakers. Day to day I use a NAD amp because it has a remote and I'm lazy.

Just for giggles I looked up a replacement stylus for the cartridge. $250. The joys of inflation.

Also the joys of thread drift. Carry on.

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20 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I enjoyed the joke. :)

Mind you, Citroens were under-appreciated even in Europe.  A relative had Citroen CXs from when they first came out until after production ended, and they were massively superior to everything else.    Sadly, most buyers were too conservative to choose one, and their maker never again made anything remotely as wonderful :(

But back on topic.  I fear that Pano may be right that Americans aren't ready for powerful modern hulls, but I winder why that is.  As I noted before, 1970s American boat designers were hugely innovative, probably more so than Yurpeens.   Bill Lapworth reinventing the offshore production boat, Doug Peterson upending IOR, the Moore 24 turning yer club boat into a planing rocket, Bill Lee going planing offshore, and then the J/24 taking the world by storm.

I have a hunch that this shift may be more socio-economic than aesthetic.  My hypothesis goes like this: The USA's spurt of 1960s/1970s boatbuilding seems to have been bigger than in most of Europe, leaving a bigger pool of used boats.  Meanwhile the economic changes which began in the 1980s have been more pronounced in the USA than in the EU, so the pool of Americans who have the cash to buy a new boat and the time to use it is way smaller than in Europe (Europeans get roughly twice as much leave).  So the market for new boats in the USA is dominated by older buyers, who have the cash to buy and the time to use a boat ... and they make more conservative choices than the younger buyers of new boats in Europe.  I'd be interested to see any relevant data

Leggs, my theory is that with a few exceptions (such as San Fran and Hawaii), most American sailing venues are pretty much light air venues and protected waters.  Wide sterns are often considered 'sticky' in those conditions and while fun for the occasional and rare sleigh rides off the wind, they aren't the normal experience.  I'd love a Pogo (any size) but would not expect to be able to enjoy its strengths here in the PNW very often.  Dunno about your side of the pond, but on the west coast, floating grass/weed/kelp are issues that make twin rudders somewhat unattractive (twice the opportunity to snag and they stick out slightly above the wl too often)

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It has an efficient use of space and the cabin top is not out of place as can happen with sub 30' boats that are trying to get a certain headroom.  I also like the slope of the cabin it blends in nicely with the shear.  Nice powered up sail plan, will it be split back stays?  What kind of tankage is the client looking for?

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Sailman:

At this point we have rig options.  You could go split backstays. That would be my preference in order to keep the square head main.  Certainly a requirement  to fly masthead asyms. If you wanted a conventional main you could do a single backstay. But with masthead asyms you will need some kind of backstay.

For tankage: 20 gals fuel and 40 gals water, 20 hags holding.

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Jon:

Thanks. I got two new Passport 40 photos on the fan club this morning. Both nice photos with no fenders hanging over the side for a change! This is one of the really nice things about the fan club. I am constantly getting photos from happy owners. I was never a good photographer so I did not have very good photographic records of my work. When I discovered the fan club I was amazed to see all the photos and I have asked members to keep them coming.

Just clunky old cruising boats but they are my clunky old cruising boats and there are a lot of them.

Passport 456 greenly.jpg

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Bmiller:

That's a beauty. Keep it! You can go to a FB page called "Turntable Talk" if you ever need any technical back up for the table. You will find a lot of appreciative tt owner's there eager to share. Direct drive is considered the best by many. How does it sound?

I love that album.

 

Bob on franker.jpg

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On 10/11/2021 at 12:10 PM, Bob Perry said:

You can't please all the people all the time. I focus on pleasing the client. The client has owned Melges 24 and FT 10m's boats. He knows what he wants. I most certainly made zero attempt to follow fashion.

Mc inb profs.jpg

McCuddy SP 6-26.jpg

Good looking boat Bob!  Will be interested in seeing what it looks like when done.  I agree with Crash in that it looks like it ticks many boxes for many people, so I would think there would be a broader market demand for it.  Best wishes on the project.

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