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BP28: Revisiting a 50-yo design brief


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I'll share my thoughts on this as I'm the individual Bob has been working with on this design. Lot's of good points here- many questions that can't be answered.  That being said- Bob and I t

Norm: The proposed new NR was 35' L.O.D. and 14,000 lbs.. D/L 183 and SA/D 24.8. It's not a happy story. Doug called me late on a Friday afternoon. "Let 's do a new boat, a smaller version o

Singlehanding  in the pnw. Last 4 Sunday beer can races in the pnw saw top recorded speeds of 10, 13, 9, and 10 knots. 

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I have my speakers on Vibrapods. These are essentially rubber "doughnuts" about 3" in diameter and made in a variety of stiffnesses. I don't like the idea of spikes going into my hardwood floors. I put Vibrapods under just about all my components. Everything makes a difference.

Lafitte 66 out 2.jpg

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While playing here today we got 130+ prints organized and packaged for UPS.  As my boats grow older the requests for prints of the drawings increases. Mostly a function of the fan club I suspect. Not sure why the photo is turned 90 degs. It's not like that when I see it before posting.

I also Degritterred a half dozen albums.

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3 hours ago, Veeger said:

Leggs, my theory is that with a few exceptions (such as San Fran and Hawaii), most American sailing venues are pretty much light air venues and protected waters.  Wide sterns are often considered 'sticky' in those conditions and while fun for the occasional and rare sleigh rides off the wind, they aren't the normal experience.  I'd love a Pogo (any size) but would not expect to be able to enjoy its strengths here in the PNW very often.  Dunno about your side of the pond, but on the west coast, floating grass/weed/kelp are issues that make twin rudders somewhat unattractive (twice the opportunity to snag and they stick out slightly above the wl too often)

Depends what you call light air but with light air sails, these boats are lively in 8 knots of wind and start moving in 5. This summer I spent 10 days on a Django 7.50 with wind varying between 0 and 25 knots (quite often between 5 and 10) and I motored for 1 hour + harbour entries... Whenever it was about 5 knots I was sailing and i was putting the engine on whenever the boat speed was below 4 knots for more than 15 minutes (quite high threshold for a 24 footer). Obviously you need to get the kite out of the bag downwind and luff a bit to create apparent wind otherwise you are stuck in light airs.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

That's an interesting theory, @Veeger, and it sounds plausible.   Irish coasts are fairly windy, as are those of Brittany where the modern hulls have been developed.  They aren't steady trade wind conditions, but a summer month will usually give plenty of days with a F4 or more.  But sometimes the Azores High comes and parks on us, and we get to drift around in F2 while this weird yellowy-gold thing appears in the sky and makes us take off our woolly jumpers and bask in a sizzling 65°F which makes our skin burn like Australian bushfire.

But but but ... if the dragginess of wide hulls and wide sterns is an issue in North America 'cos of light winds, the BP28's hull looks to me to have far too much wetted surface for those conditions.  Not quite as much as a Pongo or a Django, but far more than you'd want for ghosting.

As to twin rudders and kelp, it seems to me that ideal solution is a dinghy-style kick-up rudder.  Many IMOCA60s have them for drag reduction (lift the windward rudder), but it seems to me that the optimal setup for a light air kelp-ridden zone would be the same: lift one rudder when ghosting, and lift either of them to clear kelp.

The main issue I think is the drag of the twin rudders in light air.  By light air I don't mean ghosting conditions, but 5-8 knots or so.

I don't know how easy it would be to raise or lower a kick up rudder when you're travelling at 4-5 knots.  This may work if you are sailing mainly on one tack in ocean racing

 But as Veeger mentioned in protected waters it can be a different ball game - which is what sailing in PNW is about.  You are always relatively close to shore in forever changing currents - so even in 120 mile races there can be a lot of short tacking. 

But, the main thing is that of the admittedly few twin rudder boats that have come out to race in PNW have all had their asses handed to them.  More so in RTB racing but even in the long distance.  

Now that may have less to do with them having twin rudders than the fact they are boats imported from Europe - which tend to be undercanvassed for the most part (i.e. designed for windier European conditions), IDK.  

I do know that the standard mod for the Quest 30's in North America seems to be convert them to single rudder.

 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Crash, you seem to be making a habit of misreading what I write :(

I didn't suggest that the BP28 would drag its transom.   That's a straw man invented by you, which I hope was not intentional.

But given that the hull sections show little flare, they look to me like a hull where wetted surface is not low.  That's not "making assumptions"; it's reading drawings :) 

Hey Leggs, I'm not trying to either mis-read what you wrote, nor invent a strawman.  It has been my experience that most of the wider, Euro style, 2 rudder boats like the Pogo you posted, start to drag their transoms some when heeled enough to have one rudder up in the air....and have much higher wetted surface area back aft, which is slow in lighter air...

If I've got what you meant wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!

image.png.e4cf96d6a858ec7c956be6b8d186e884.png

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Jon:

That is the one and only Lafitte 66. Now living in San Fran and much loved by the live aboard owner. That boat was originally owned by Bus Mosbacher's brother.

Crash:

Yes! the one thing I'd like to avoid for a boat designed for light to moderate conditions is a boat that drags its transom corner. That's a lot of drag unless you are doing over hull speed.

Sailman:

No, not at all. Those two boats, carbon cutter and new 28 are very different designs. The carbon cutters have a D/L around 250, about the same as a Valiant 40. This puts the carbon cutters at what I'd call "heavy" displ today. Funny when you think my critic in 1974 considered the V-40 "too light" to be a serious offshore boat.

The 28 has a D /L of 168, about what I would call the "heavy side of medium" by today's standards. With the carbon cutter I needed different bow sections to get the Cp I was after and a more balanced shape to insure an easy helm through a wide range of heel angles.

It's really apples to oranges. Two different shapes for two different problems. The 28 bow sections are much more U shaped then the bow section of the carbon cutter which show a lot more deadrise forward. This set of lines I gave to Will Porter so he could create a 3D model for the 28. He smoothed out some of my awkward spots, notably the forward most immersed sections. Will has the eye and is a pleasure to work with. It's reassuring for me to know he has the talent to take over where I leave off. Remember, Will and I have worked together since he was 14 years old, at least.

Isn't this fun. Just like the old days.

 

McCuddy lines 6-25.jpg

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Willy:

That will depend on whether it's a carbon fiber build or composite. For composite around 34% would be my target. I have not done a weight study or keel design yet. Still mulling over the options. The carbon cutters are close to 43% with the internal lead very low in the fin.

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7 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Vintage turntables from the '60's an early'70's are highly prized as are vintage cartridges like the Sure V-15.

Yeah, still using my old Thorens and V15. The v15 was considered "mid-fi" at best when I bought it- I'm amazed that it has become so sought after. i almost bought a Linn Sondek in the '80s Bob, but I had a regrettable fit of fiscal responsibility. That record cleaner is very cool, BTW

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

Hey Leggs, I'm not trying to either mis-read what you wrote, nor invent a strawman.  It has been my experience that most of the wider, Euro style, 2 rudder boats like the Pogo you posted, start to drag their transoms some when heeled enough to have one rudder up in the air....and have much higher wetted surface area back aft, which is slow in lighter air...

If I've got what you meant wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!

image.png.e4cf96d6a858ec7c956be6b8d186e884.png

Main is completely depowered, there is at least 15 knots of wind...

In ghosting conditions, boat is not dragging its transom much. Yes there is more wetted area but as the boat is very powerful, there is also more sail area... I suspect that you haven't sailed one of these designs as it is nowhere as bad as you describe it. Might be a bit sticky at the beginning but even a small puff and off it goes.

MjAyMDExMzUxYzg3NmRkMmVmMTcyMDdiM2Q1NWRm

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Main is completely depowered, there is at least 15 knots of wind...

In ghosting conditions, boat is not dragging its transom much. Yes there is more wetted area but as the boat is very powerful, there is also more sail area... I suspect that you haven't sailed one of these designs as it is nowhere as bad as you describe it. Might be a bit sticky at the beginning but even a small puff and off it goes.

MjAyMDExMzUxYzg3NmRkMmVmMTcyMDdiM2Q1NWRm

Pano, while you are right, I have never sailed such a boat, I also have never said this hull type was bad, or not good.  All I've really tried to say was that Bob's design doesn't need 2 rudders, as the stern is not nearly as beamy (when heeled at the waterline) as Two Leggs thinks.  That said, the boat in your picture is not going upwind, its reaching...which helps from a don't heel too much.  Plus, as the F-4 Phantom proved, if you put a big enough engine in it, even a brick can fly.  So sure, with enough SA/Disp, you can certainly overcome any "extra" wetted surface area that a wider stern might have.  And you can always reduce sail area thru reefing.  But I don't want/need my family racer/cruiser to have a ton of Sa/Disp.  Bob's design, at around 24 seems pretty good, and more powered up than any other racer/cruiser I've owned, which includes a J/109.

Again, in my mind, there is nothing "wrong" or bad with the wide stern, dual rudder high SA/Disp ratio approach, and should be a blast on a distance race, esp if there is any off the wind work.   It's just not the boat I want...

Does that make sense?

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Just now, shaggyq said:

Singlehanding  in the pnw. Last 4 Sunday beer can races in the pnw saw top recorded speeds of 10, 13, 9, and 10 knots. 

7C9EDABB-1C2A-4002-B140-28BF629711D7.jpeg

She's awfully good looking Shaggs!  Would love to come up there and sail/race on her one day!

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8 minutes ago, Crash said:

Pano, while you are right, I have never sailed such a boat, I also have never said this hull type was bad, or not good.  All I've really tried to say was that Bob's design doesn't need 2 rudders, as the stern is not nearly as beamy (when heeled at the waterline) as Two Leggs thinks.  That said, the boat in your picture is not going upwind, its reaching...which helps from a don't heel too much.  Plus, as the F-4 Phantom proved, if you put a big enough engine in it, even a brick can fly.  So sure, with enough SA/Disp, you can certainly overcome any "extra" wetted surface area that a wider stern might have.  And you can always reduce sail area thru reefing.  But I don't want/need my family racer/cruiser to have a ton of Sa/Disp.  Bob's design, at around 24 seems pretty good, and more powered up than any other racer/cruiser I've owned, which includes a J/109.

Again, in my mind, there is nothing "wrong" or bad with the wide stern, dual rudder high SA/Disp ratio approach, and should be a blast on a distance race, esp if there is any off the wind work.   It's just not the boat I want...

Does that make sense?

Your previous post was certainly giving the impression that you had first hand experience of one of this design being very sticky in light air, that's not the case IME, especially with the newer ones. Also these boats are very stiff so you don't have to reef really early, plus the traveller is very wide so it is easy to depower if you get caught with too much canvas. The old boats are still fun to sail but if I were to buy a new boat, I would find hard to ignore the progress recently made in yacht design. But that's me, may be bob is right and lot of people will buy this design!

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14 minutes ago, Crash said:

Pano, while you are right, I have never sailed such a boat, I also have never said this hull type was bad, or not good.  All I've really tried to say was that Bob's design doesn't need 2 rudders, as the stern is not nearly as beamy (when heeled at the waterline) as Two Leggs thinks.  That said, the boat in your picture is not going upwind, its reaching...which helps from a don't heel too much.  Plus, as the F-4 Phantom proved, if you put a big enough engine in it, even a brick can fly.  So sure, with enough SA/Disp, you can certainly overcome any "extra" wetted surface area that a wider stern might have.  And you can always reduce sail area thru reefing.  But I don't want/need my family racer/cruiser to have a ton of Sa/Disp.  Bob's design, at around 24 seems pretty good, and more powered up than any other racer/cruiser I've owned, which includes a J/109.

Again, in my mind, there is nothing "wrong" or bad with the wide stern, dual rudder high SA/Disp ratio approach, and should be a blast on a distance race, esp if there is any off the wind work.   It's just not the boat I want...

Does that make sense?

This makes sense to me.  I don’t want to get over my skis on any talk, so grain of salt.  I got to race and drive a bit on a Quest 30 in the 90’s, at the same time doing the same on J 105 and 120.  I really liked the idea of the Quest, but for some reason it didn’t deliver for me, not to say it wasn’t fun.

I’ll most likely never sail on either, but give me a chance to sail on an Open 40 or J125, I would go 125, only because I believe it would deliver the experience I think I would want. I think a BP28 would fit that bill as well, and I have no idea how to explain it. 

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Your previous post was certainly giving the impression that you had first hand experience of one of this design being very sticky in light air, that's not the case IME, especially with the newer ones. Also these boats are very stiff so you don't have to reef really early, plus the traveller is very wide so it is easy to depower if you get caught with too much canvas. The old boats are still fun to sail but if I were to buy a new boat, I would find hard to ignore the progress recently made in yacht design. But that's me, may be bob is right and lot of people will buy this design!

Closet I got was a bunch of sailing on Bob's FT 7.5, which had a "moderately" broad stern, and a single rudder...that said, as has been said upthread, the wider-sterned French boats have struggled here in the US.  On the Chesapeake Bay, on Long Island Sound, in the PNW.   Maybe that's mostly "first gen" boats like the 3200.  Maybe that's PHRF being biased.  I hope a lot of people buy Bob's design, but as a sailor, I hope a lot of people buy Pogos too.  And J-Boats, and Beneteaus (I've owned 2) and lots of "performance" oriented boats.  As I said to Shaggy, I'd love to sail on his boat!

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10 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

I have my speakers on Vibrapods. These are essentially rubber "doughnuts" about 3" in diameter and made in a variety of stiffnesses. I don't like the idea of spikes going into my hardwood floors. I put Vibrapods under just about all my components. Everything makes a difference.

Lafitte 66 out 2.jpg

Looks like a wedding cake.

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19 hours ago, 12 metre said:

But, the main thing is that of the admittedly few twin rudder boats that have come out to race in PNW have all had their asses handed to them.  More so in RTB racing but even in the long distance.  

Now that may have less to do with them having twin rudders than the fact they are boats imported from Europe - which tend to be undercanvassed for the most part (i.e. designed for windier European conditions), IDK.  

Would that include the twin rudder Bieker designed Blue? Winner of Div 0 in the last run VanIsle 360 and second place in the last run Swiftsure? Yeah, not a European import, locally bred and raised.....

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57 minutes ago, DDW said:

Would that include the twin rudder Bieker designed Blue? Winner of Div 0 in the last run VanIsle 360 and second place in the last run Swiftsure? Yeah, not a European import, locally bred and raised.....

Forgot about the Riptides.  I will throw in Longboard as well as Blue.   There are always exceptions.   I was thinking more along the lines of the production euro twin rudder boats that have shown up at the start of local races.

The Riptides also have transferable water ballast - which throws another variable into the equation.

So yes, a powered up twin rudder water ballast design like a Riptide can certainly do well in long distance racing - which is what they were designed to do.  Even in PNW.

 

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I'll share my thoughts on this as I'm the individual Bob has been working with on this design.

Lot's of good points here- many questions that can't be answered.  That being said-

Bob and I talked about the need for a modern, well built performance cruiser for a market that we feel is not being served- sailors that want a multi purpose boat that they can day sail, cruise, race, camp-out on etc etc.  The size we settled on- you see it above.  Why 28'?  It's manageable from an ownership stand point- slips are readily available- you could trailer this boat w/ the appropriate vehicle and trailer- relatively new sailors could handle the boat double handed, and as someone just getting into the building side of things it gives me the chance to do so with a manageable project size.

Decisions made in terms of the design- why a single, outboard rudder?  Bob says it will work- that's number 1, 2, and 3.  We both also like the appearance of the outboard rudder.  Other considerations- the bridge deck traveller- Short handed it's in the right place for someone to manage- and the helm can reach it easily while steering.  It also gives us room for a good size dodger or bimini that I believe more and more people are going to insist on having as we try and enjoy the great outdoors without being directly in the sun all the time.  The open transom- access to and from the water is a priority- I believe the cockpit will be a great place to be after a race or while at anchor.  And we have storage for inflatable paddle boards and water toys aft that you'll be able to access off the back easily and safely.

I see this boat as an evolution of a lot of great designs- Bob designs a good looking boat- and to me this is very important.  A great design that is ugly?  Not as fun to own.  My first boat was a Cal 20- I came to love the way it looked but only because it was so practical, not a sexy line on it imo.

This boat has a real interior.  Over 6' of headroom, a real galley, an enclosed head.  Storage and more storage.  Bob designs great interiors!  

I like the Pogo's and JPK's- and they're good at designing and building those boats- and it's what their market wants.  I'm not sure why- but the "open" concept hasn't caught on here, maybe it will- I don't know.

I'm guessing this boat will cost more to own than most of us would be willing to spend on a 28' sailboat.  But that's okay- I don't see this being a high production boat.  I'd like to see it become a semi-custom production design.  Does someone want to go all electric?  We'll work with them.  Does someone want a carbon spar w/ carbon sails and a high aspect keel?    I'd like to be able to make it possible.  I keep coming back to that fact that people spend great sums of money on ski boats, go fast powerboats, campers, etc.  I'm hoping that ultimately the boat will maintain its value, and owners will find that the ultimate cost of ownership is reasonable.  I know of a number of people here in the NW that have million dollar plus catamaran projects going- They're looking at the overall costs of ownership, not just what they're spending up front.

We have a ton of work to do before this becomes real.  We'll build one boat off of a plug and see what we like and don't like about it.  Then we'll figure out how much it will cost to build and bring to market- and if we can make a profit selling it.  Some things I think will work for us- we can build a boat for the west coast and people here can pick it up in Portland- We can do in the water deliveries if desired- no freight.  They will be able to buy directly from the builder- no intermediary needing to mark up the cost.  

The feedback here and on Bob's fb fan club page has been fantastic- many good ideas- probably the best feedback loop available at any cost- and it's free!  

Mark

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3 hours ago, windwagon said:

It also gives us room for a good size dodger or bimini that I believe more and more people are going to insist on having as we try and enjoy the great outdoors without being directly in the sun all the time.

I've been completely soaked - "as wet as water could make us"* - by the 'sun' in the PNW frequently. So dodger, yeah.

Raises a question though: Boats coming from the Nordic countries have dodger features integrated in a way that does not make them look like an afterthought. US boats do not. For the PNW (rain) and the SE (rain and sun) a very high percentage of boats end up with dodgers - that look like an afterthought. Wondering why they are not considered by the design team. Even Blue, the pure racing Riptide mentioned above has a dodger.

* Just went through the Lewis And Clark museum at Cape Disappointment, that is one of the quotes I liked. 

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Depends entirely on what the client asks for DDW. On the 28 a dodger is clearly shown. I almost always outline my idea for a dodger on my cruising boat designs. Bill Garden was putting windshields on boats in the late '50's. The original drawings for the Rawson 30 show a windshield as do the original drawings for OCEANUS. Neither was ever built with a windshield to my knowledge.

 

The new Banser turntable, $100,000

basner tt.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Come on DDW just look at the drawings again. A dodger is clearly shown. I trust you can read a drawing.

 

The new Banser turntable, $100,000

basner tt.jpg

That turntable looks as though it would be interesting to set up. Probably not good for folks who have cats.

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As for that turntable. Based on the reaction on the audiophile sites I frequent most think it's silly. I think it is beautiful as a piece of "the turntable as art" but It makes little sense to me for playing records. But,,,,,,, I would have to listen to it. You would wear  out a SWIFFER keeping it clean.

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38 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

The new Banser turntable, $100,000

basner tt.jpg

That thing is like cocaine - God's way of telling you that you have too much money.

It does have a weird steampunk vibe about it though. A few rivets would cap it off nicely.

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41 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

It does have a weird steampunk vibe about it though. A few rivets would cap it off nicely.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Rube Goldberg machine.

Clearly they never heard of Occams's Razor.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Depends entirely on what the client asks for DDW. On the 28 a dodger is clearly shown. I almost always outline my idea for a dodger on my cruising boat designs. Bill Garden was putting windshields on boats in the late '50's. The original drawings for the Rawson 30 show a windshield as do the original drawings for OCEANUS. Neither was ever built with a windshield to my knowledge.

 

The new Banser turntable, $100,000

basner tt.jpg

How do you put a stack of 45's on it?

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41 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

How do you put a stack of 45's on it?

You spend another 50k and hire a shapely young lass to flip records for you... no, that isn't a euphemism you dirty old bastard!  :-)

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Let me tell you about dodgers:

By the time the dodger builder gets to the boat, it's launched and sitting at the dock. My drawings are history. Nobody even remembers that I drew a dodger profile. Or cares. Perfect case in point, the carbon cutters. Here was a vendor's dream, four identical dodgers for one day of measuring. I met the Iverson dodger guy at the boat and explained what I wanted in terms of shape. He gave me that "In a pig's eye" look and said, "Don't tell me how to build a dodger." In my typical meek manner I explained that I had some ideas that I wanted incorporated into the dodger. He was hostile, "I've built 200 dodgers!" Needless to say Iverson did not get the job. No one did. We ended up with mini, over the companionway dodgers. Iverson is a big company with their standard frame details and corner radii. They were not interested in the softer, larger radii look I was after, more of an English look, more rounder than rectangular.

 I have a set of rules of thumb for dodger design. The dodger should enhance the look of the boat, not detract from the look of the boat. The dodger cannot start at the aft end of the spray hood. That does not work. The dodger has to start as far forward as possible to allow good headroom/clearance as you go below. The dodger should not be parallel to the DWL. The dodger should not be parallel with the deck. The aft end of the dodger has to be higher than the front end, slightly. They don't care. It's just a shelter for the dodger maker. Tin eyes and tin ears. Yes, it's a shelter but there is no reason it should not look good.
 

Baba 40 Zeya.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

I met the Iverson dodger guy at the boat and explained what I wanted in terms of shape. He gave me that "In a pig's eye" look and said, "Don't tell me how to build a dodger." In my typical meek manner I explained that I had some ideas that I wanted incorporated into the dodger. He was hostile, "I've built 200 dodgers!" Needless to say Iverson did not get the job.

That Iverson eejit deserved an involuntary swim.

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I've got 2 more criteria for dodgers:

- is it long enough to keep you out of the rain/spray if you are sitting up against the cabin trunk? Lots of bridgedeck traveller dodgers are too short because they have to clear the mainsheet.

image.png.829a084b75c89339bfbca333075a3126.png

- does the winch handle hit the damn thing?

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Ahhh, dodgers!  The ability to have a dodger that works for me has been my Number ONE criterion for whatever boat I might buy.  That lengthy thread on the perfect daysailer had nary a one that met my standards for adding a dodger.  I’m totally in agreement with Bob’s rules for dodgers and Zonker adds very valid additional rules that I totally agree with.  I’d add that length must permit at least 2 people to sit on the same side UNDER the dodger, not just behind the dodger.  In my perfect world there’d be 6’ plus, of seating UNDER the dodger.

Windwagon, thanks for chiming in with some background.  I wish you the best in a tough business.  But, that bridge deck traveler is a total deal killer no matter what ever else good points the boat may end up with.  The Missus doesn’t want to sit on that traveler, nor be displaced in every tack.  A midboom traveler, despite its numerous shortcomings would be more preferable than on the bridge deck.  I know, I know, plenty da boats have had bridge deck travelers and still do,  I won’t be buying a boat with a bridge deck traveler new, used or a gift. There has to be a better way.  There are certainly challenges when working with a 28’ length.

Again, best of luck to you.  New designs and the whole process are fun.  I’m deep into a new design with a great designer as well.  Keeps the creative juices flowing and the mind working constantly on all those ‘little’ things.

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I meant both primary winches and cabintop winches. These look OK in plan but once you think about a dodger sloping inboard, you'll see a 10" handle will likely hit.

I just went through an exercise with moving a cabintop winch on a Catalina 30 and so I'm sensitive to the problem. A few years later Catalina moved the winch right up to the companionway opening on newer models.

image.png.f92764be8104f1b2501fd856306ae133.png

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12 minutes ago, Veeger said:

I’d add that length must permit at least 2 people to sit on the same side UNDER the dodger,

Rather tricky on a 28' boat. People are about 24"+ wide at the shoulder. 4' aft of the cabin trunk and you're covering more than half the cockpit with dodger.

Factory standard dodgers would make sense - again you only have to measure once and then you pattern the fabric and keep the paper or vinyl patterns for the next one.

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Just now, Zonker said:

Rather tricky on a 28' boat. People are about 24"+ wide at the shoulder. 4' aft of the cabin trunk and you're covering more than half the cockpit with dodger.

Factory standard dodgers would make sense - again you only have to measure once and then you pattern the fabric and keep the paper or vinyl patterns for the next one.

Very much in agreement with all this.  Additionally, the dodger must be well outboard of the seat back in order to still have head clearance on the windward side when well heeled.  The only solution I’ve found in under 40’ is to make a somewhat central cockpit and bag getting decent accommodations below.  That dodger becomes the salon…

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I think, in 28 feet, we have to make some compromises...unlike a 35+footer, there are some things we just can't get scale as the boat becomes smaller.  On 28 feet, I'm willing to compromise, and only have 3/4 swing of the winch handle when the weather is bad enough to require a dodger, is to me, acceptable.  The aesthetics of the dodger are as important to me as the protection it provides.  Same for number of folks who can fit under it.  At 35 feet, I want two to fit, at 28, I'm willing to accept that only one can fit on the high side, and the second is likely on the low side (or sitting in the one parent's lap, in the case of a younger child).  Same for the bridge deck traveler.  I just sold the first boat I've owned with a mid boom/cabintop trav, and I will NEVER, EVER, buy another boat with such a set up.  The amount of friction and pain associated with adjusting the trav was crazy.  Its a sailboat after all, not a motor yacht, and some inconvenience is (IMHO) to be expected to enable the safe and efficient handling of the sails. In the case of the BP28 looks to me like there is plenty of room for an average sized adult butt to fit between the trav and the aft cabin face, so what's the big deal?  Again, its a 28 foot boat, not a 35 footer.  If you want the trav out of the cockpit, and don't care too much about sailing performance, Beneteau will sell you a very nice Oceanus 30.1 for about $150K sailaway, that will have all the things you want from a dodger and traveler standpoint.  Of course, the BP 28 will sail rings around it...but I get that different folks have different requirements.

 

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12 minutes ago, Crash said:

I think, in 28 feet, we have to make some compromises...unlike a 35+footer, there are some things we just can't get scale as the boat becomes smaller.  On 28 feet, I'm willing to compromise, and only have 3/4 swing of the winch handle when the weather is bad enough to require a dodger, is to me, acceptable.  The aesthetics of the dodger are as important to me as the protection it provides.  Same for number of folks who can fit under it.  At 35 feet, I want two to fit, at 28, I'm willing to accept that only one can fit on the high side, and the second is likely on the low side (or sitting in the one parent's lap, in the case of a younger child).  Same for the bridge deck traveler.  I just sold the first boat I've owned with a mid boom/cabintop trav, and I will NEVER, EVER, buy another boat with such a set up.  The amount of friction and pain associated with adjusting the trav was crazy.  Its a sailboat after all, not a motor yacht, and some inconvenience is (IMHO) to be expected to enable the safe and efficient handling of the sails. In the case of the BP28 looks to me like there is plenty of room for an average sized adult butt to fit between the trav and the aft cabin face, so what's the big deal?  Again, its a 28 foot boat, not a 35 footer.  If you want the trav out of the cockpit, and don't care too much about sailing performance, Beneteau will sell you a very nice Oceanus 30.1 for about $150K sailaway, that will have all the things you want from a dodger and traveler standpoint.  Of course, the BP 28 will sail rings around it...but I get that different folks have different requirements.

 

I don't have room for a full revolution with 10" handles on my cabintop winches, so I use 8" handles which work fine for most things. I can use a 10" handle with partial rotation if I need to. If I need a lot of grunt I just put a wrap on the cabintop winch and lead it to a primary with a 10" handle and a much lower gear ratio.

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

I think, in 28 feet, we have to make some compromises...unlike a 35+footer, there are some things we just can't get scale as the boat becomes smaller.  On 28 feet, I'm willing to compromise, and only have 3/4 swing of the winch handle when the weather is bad enough to require a dodger, is to me, acceptable.  The aesthetics of the dodger are as important to me as the protection it provides.  Same for number of folks who can fit under it.  At 35 feet, I want two to fit, at 28, I'm willing to accept that only one can fit on the high side, and the second is likely on the low side (or sitting in the one parent's lap, in the case of a younger child).  Same for the bridge deck traveler.  I just sold the first boat I've owned with a mid boom/cabintop trav, and I will NEVER, EVER, buy another boat with such a set up.  The amount of friction and pain associated with adjusting the trav was crazy.

Crash, I agree that mid-boom travellers are an abomination.  Horrible loading angles.

But think about the contradictions is your post above.   You envisage that sheltered under the dodger, you will have two people; one to windward, one to leeward.  nicely snug and dry ... except that on the BP28 with its 1970s-style bridgedeck traveller, both of those sheltered crew will have their bums on the traveller track.  And if the traveller needs to be dumped, it runs into the leeward person, which will at best be very unpleasant.

There is no need for that dangerous discomfort.  Simply follow the Breton style: put the traveller right aft, and lead the mainsheet to a dinghy-style swivel  jammer on the floor.  That way you get unencumbered bridgedeck, unobstructed  companionway, mainsheet at handy for the helm, wider traveller, and mainsheet loading which isn't adding to gooseneck compression, as Bob's design does.  Plus, you can make the dodger extend further aft.

On a boat which has so much beam aft at deck level, it seems to me to quite perverse to stick with the 1970s traveller arrangement.  But then these drawings of the BP28 also show a boat whose cabin has no outside view when seated, and no forward view from anywhere below.   The modern European performance boats nearly all have fwd view, hull ports and mainsheet aft, and most also have twin tillers which make helming nicer when the stern is so broad.

I struggle to understand why anyone who want to  build a new boat without those benefits, which I guess is why Bob is deploying his old tactic of flooding the thread with music stuff to make it harder to follow the boat discussion.  Not a great look.

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7 hours ago, Veeger said:

that bridge deck traveler is a total deal killer no matter what ever else good points the boat may end up with.  The Missus doesn’t want to sit on that traveler, nor be displaced in every tack.  A midboom traveler, despite its numerous shortcomings would be more preferable than on the bridge deck.  I know, I know, plenty da boats have had bridge deck travelers and still do,  I won’t be buying a boat with a bridge deck traveler new, used or a gift. There has to be a better way.  There are certainly challenges when working with a 28’ length.

Veeger, I agree that the bridgedeck traveller is an abomination unto the goddess.   But @Crash is also right that midboom sheeting is abominable.

Thankfully, wide-sterned long-boomed designs like the BP28 can avoid both nightmares y choosing a third alternative: traveller on transom.  Here are 4 contemporary French designs of a similar size, all with traveller aft.  From left to right: Pogo 30, Malango 888, Django 7.70, RM 890.

Pogo30-1-1920x1280-1.thumb.jpg.1e60e0921e69dcaf3fb0777f9dc8a618.jpg    763960982_Malango888.thumb.jpg.5280db22320f39615b550efc03c1f2cb.jpg    1138812189_Django7_70.thumb.jpg.78a44364adfa31605d4a5ab3321f0c06.jpg    108345843_RM890.thumb.jpeg.dd0c7427fc145aa0c94545e630747aa2.jpeg

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

On a boat which has so much beam aft at deck level, it seems to me to quite perverse to stick with the 1970s traveller arrangement.  But then these drawings of the BP28 also show a boat whose cabin has no outside view when seated, and no forward view from anywhere below.   The modern European performance boats nearly all have fwd view, hull ports and mainsheet aft, and most also have twin tillers which make helming nicer when the stern is so broad.

I struggle to understand why anyone who want to  build a new boat without those benefits, which I guess is why Bob is deploying his old tactic of flooding the thread with music stuff to make it harder to follow the boat discussion.  Not a great look.

I seem to recall this boat has an open transom and the builder envisions easy access for the dinghy or SUP: "The open transom- access to and from the water is a priority- I believe the cockpit will be a great place to be after a race or while at anchor.  And we have storage for inflatable paddle boards and water toys aft that you'll be able to access off the back easily and safely". I don't think traveller and mainsheet aft coincide with the builder's vision. Bob is very much a 'give the client what they want' kind of guy. IMO ports in a cabin are for light not view. Keep them small and leakproof. If I want a panoramic view, I'll sit in the cockpit.

And I like musical interludes. And food recipies. Thread drift is good. Keeps things from getting too intense.

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On 10/12/2021 at 10:21 PM, 12 metre said:

The main issue I think is the drag of the twin rudders in light air.  By light air I don't mean ghosting conditions, but 5-8 knots or so.

I don't know how easy it would be to raise or lower a kick up rudder when you're travelling at 4-5 knots.  This may work if you are sailing mainly on one tack in ocean racing

 But as Veeger mentioned in protected waters it can be a different ball game - which is what sailing in PNW is about.  You are always relatively close to shore in forever changing currents - so even in 120 mile races there can be a lot of short tacking. 

But, the main thing is that of the admittedly few twin rudder boats that have come out to race in PNW have all had their asses handed to them.  More so in RTB racing but even in the long distance.  

Now that may have less to do with them having twin rudders than the fact they are boats imported from Europe - which tend to be undercanvassed for the most part (i.e. designed for windier European conditions), IDK.  

I do know that the standard mod for the Quest 30's in North America seems to be convert them to single rudder.

 

Even here the fat ass twin rudder boat does not work in IRC inshore races, I don't think that any Pogo 30 has won major races in Europe. That's because for the concept to work, you need canvas and beam which are penalised by most rating rules thus you can't save your TCC. Nevertheless, they can work very well for their size in 5 knots of wind which is all what you care when cruising. The real bonus point is that these boats track well which is a real plus when cruising. Even on a 28 footer, you can let off the tiller, tweak the jib or glance at the map and come back to the tiller without drama.

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As I tried to explain most dodger makers will not give you many design options. They have stock patterns for most of the work and you get their dodger. For instance, it would be nice to have frames rake inboard a bit but look at an Iverson dodger, the frames are vertical or very close to vertical. This has the benefit of giving you more winch handle clearance but it looks not so good. But winches can be more inboard if that is a concern. In the early  design stage deck hardware elements are subject to mock up. In fact we used to write on the deck lines plan "all hardware should be on hand and checked for fairleads and interference". Problem was that many builders did not have all the hardware at the yard when the deck plug was being built. We would use various paint cans and such to simulate winches. In Taiwan a good worker could build you a mockup piece out of plywood in ten minutes but the real hardware is always better. Some of your arguments here don't represent real world situations. But given most of you have never designed boats I understand. Traveler on the transom is a good idea but the 28 has an outboard rudder and an open transom making that solution a bit of a problem. I have also drawn an inboard rudder version that could accommodate an aft trav. But I think recessing the trav flush into the aft edge of the bridge deck, as drawn, will work. I don't mind stepping over it. My P'Winkle had no trav. The mainsheet went to padeye on the cockpit sole. That worked well for me. I had regular purchase and fine tune multi purchase on it and it was right where I needed it. You could lead the sheet forward and back aft to a cabin top winch if that is your preference. Too much friction for me. The P'Winkle sheet Just meant more attention to the vang. The trav recess can be very easily removed in the deck mold and added back for another boat later if requested. Recesses in the deck part and removable "bumps" in the mold. We called them "buttons".

 My ports shown are stock opening ports. I drew long fixed window initially but decided the opening ports had a more distinct, throw back, kind of look that I liked. I don't think you can have too many opening ports in the PNW. I reviewed two new French boats last month for SAILING. They had lots of windows in the hull but few in the cabin trunk and neither boat had a single opening port. Why? Opening ports are expensive would be my guess. But give a limited production project I'm sure you could have some fixed hull windows if you want them.  I prefer the boat without. Standing up to look out an opening port is not difficult for me.

Funny how posting some random music videos can annoy some people. Relax. Lighten up. It's fun. I don't come here for serious stuff.

Over on he fan club we will have the UK designer and past editor of SEAHORSE, Julian Everett, on for our next Excellence in Yacht Design series. It will be a ZOOM meeting a week from Friday. Our last guest was Charley Morgan. He spoke for almost three hours! He was amazing. He had some fabulous stories ranging from his early days as a sailmaker to his work with HERITAGE the 12 meter to building adventures with Morgan Yachts. His comment on his PAPER TIGER, SORC winner, we very interesting. After Julian  I have asked Rob Ball of the C&C design team to do a presentation. Chuck Paine started the series off. I coordinate the event then stand back and let the guest take over the fan club page for a day. Chuck Paine loved it. He was overwhelmed with the response. He started his own fan club page afterwards. I didn't start mine. I found it already nicely set up and rolling along. Yves-Marie Tanton is another guest I have a commitment from. I'm going to try to get Bruce King but that will be very hard. I spoke to Bruce a few weeks back. He likes to lay low. I'll at least ask him.

 

Night Runner haulery.png

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I would have thought at least some of you would have noted the "preliminary" in the title band at the bottom of the drawings. But un fortunately not. Preliminaries are part of the design spiral and one step beyond "concept" drawings/ sketches.

A working deck plan looks like this and even this drawing is subject to revision after the layout has been mocked up and fairleads and clearances resolved. I included the 62' Buppy Boat deck plan here to help show the difference between "preliminary" and "working " drawings. The other two deck plans are working drawings. Big difference.

Buppy deck.jpg

Cata deck - Copy.jpg

deck.jpg

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1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I seem to recall this boat has an open transom and the builder envisions easy access for the dinghy or SUP: "The open transom- access to and from the water is a priority- I believe the cockpit will be a great place to be after a race or while at anchor.  And we have storage for inflatable paddle boards and water toys aft that you'll be able to access off the back easily and safely". I don't think traveller and mainsheet aft coincide with the builder's vision

The Breton boats whose pictures I posted above above all combine aft traveller with open transom.

This builder's vision seems to prefer putting the traveller in a place where it is optimally positioned to impede crew, and to injure people.

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1 hour ago, Bob Perry said:

Traveler on the transom is a good idea but the 28 has an outboard rudder and an open transom making that solution a bit of a problem. I have also drawn an inboard rudder version that could accommodate an aft trav.

378115053_Seascape27traveller.thumb.png.1d5ca4f83277abbe0db205d49e732943.pngBob, you can have the traveller after simply having the tiler in a slot under the traveller, as has been done in the Seascape 27 (picture right).  It has twin outboard rudders, but there's no reason why a similar approach couldn't be used even if you want to stick with an old-fashioned single rudder to block swimmers climbing onto the middle of that handy bathing platform aft.  Or you could use twin tillers.

Most of the European designs are shown at Boot Dusseldorf.  It is in January, so there is still plenty of time for Bob and @windwagon to organise a trip to see for themselves all the clever solutions that already in production.

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IMO that design is intended for agile young people who like the 'fast Euro look'. I'd be tripping on the traveller coming in over the stern, stubbing my toes on the outboard in the well in the middle of the cockpit sole, and getting my ass wet as the water sluiced down the side decks I was forced to sit on because there are no seats nice and dry behind a coaming that you can lean against...and the house is too narrow for a decent dodger. Every boat is a compromise, but that one has too many for me.

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Windwagon said. “ I keep coming back to that fact that people spend great sums of money on ski boats, go fast powerboats, campers, etc.  I'm hoping that ultimately the boat will maintain its value, and owners will find that the ultimate cost of ownership is reasonable.”

The amount of money quite a few folks spend on their towable aluminum fishing machines and tow rig, as well as ski boats and RVs is pretty astounding to us ragbaggers who want something for cheap. I suspect this 28’er will exceed $200k.  In theory, there are people who can afford it.  In practice, it’s tough to compete against sub $100k cruising sailboats much larger and  equivalent size used sailboats for ten cents on the dollar. The challenge is in getting that small market of monied sailors who want a new boat, even a small, new boat to be willing to pay what is currently a premium to have that new boat.  I’d posit that the ‘new’ boat needs to be distinctively different and improved over what can be had on the used boat market today.  

Clients can get a design for whatever they want, that’s the equation.  Putting it ‘out here’ is a great way to gauge the interest.  I just don’t see anything very compelling in this design even though it certainly meets the design brief and is classic Perry.  Those are not criticisms, they’re acknowledgement that the client is getting what he asked for.  My question is… Should this be what he’s asking for in today’s market?  (For me, and I suspect Two Legged, that answer is negative, albeit for somewhat different reasons)

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My cruising boats have never been state of the art. They have been what I wanted to do with the client requirements. But there are now almost 7,000 of them, many on there second, third or fourth happy owners by now so somebody must like them. I have zero interest in what is popular in Europe. My focus is the PNW cruiser. I do enjoy looking at the Euro boats, usually. I just have no interest in designing those kinds of boats. The two new French boats I just reviewed for SAILING are almost identical. I had a hard time telling them apart. That for me is boring.

Looks like Ron Holland will be one of our Excellence in Yacht Design guests. To be scheduled. That will be fun.

Bup low rider - Copy.jpg

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33 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

IMO that design is intended for agile young people who like the 'fast Euro look'. I'd be tripping on the traveller coming in over the stern, stubbing my toes on the outboard in the well in the middle of the cockpit sole, and getting my ass wet as the water sluiced down the side decks I was forced to sit on because there are no seats nice and dry behind a coaming that you can lean against...and the house is too narrow for a decent dodger. Every boat is a compromise, but that one has too many for me.

Jim, you miss my point entirely. I am not for a moment advocating that the comfortable cruising BP28 should be changed into something like the spartan, planing Seascape 27, or that it should have an outboard or no seats.  I posted that photo for one reason only: to show one way that tiller and traveller can share the same space, which Bob thought was not possible.

33 minutes ago, Veeger said:

I suspect this 28’er will exceed $200k.  In theory, there are people who can afford it.  In practice, it’s tough to compete against sub $100k cruising sailboats much larger and  equivalent size used sailboats for ten cents on the dollar. The challenge is in getting that small market of monied sailors who want a new boat, even a small, new boat to be willing to pay what is currently a premium to have that new boat.  I’d posit that the ‘new’ boat needs to be distinctively different and improved over what can be had on the used boat market today.  

That's pretty much my view too, Veeger, which is why I started this thread.

In practice, some people will pay the extra for a new boat instead of an identical used one just to have the joy of newer gear that doesn't need so much attention.   Others will ask whether the price gap exceeds the benefits, and that price gap is big: a bigger J/32 can be had for less than half of that $200,000: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2001-j-boats-j-32-8043711/

Sure, the BP28 is prettier, but it doesn't seem to me to move the game on much from the J/32 era: it adds an open transom and the fathead main (which will be great in light winds), but it also reverts to the older uncomfortable and dangerous traveller-on-bridgedeck.  But it doesn't add the extra visibility of modern designs, or the handling innovations.

The current economic setup in the USA means that people in their 30s and 40s are much less likely to have the time and cash for a new boat, unlike the 1970s.  So the BP28 will probably have to sell to people in their 60s, who may welcome the conservative styling.  But even for them, is there enough improvement over the 1990s boats/

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Istream:

The Buppyboat 43 ("Buppy" is what my two grandkids call me) is the carbon cutter hull with essentially the layout of the Baba 40 PH model. It's one of the best layouts I have drawn and they are very popular boats but sadly not in production anymore and very hard to find used. The layout of the four carbon cutters is unique in that it's designed for offshore passagemaking and given that it would have no appeal to the PNW cruiser. There is not a double berth in the boat. I drew a layout with a double berth but the client was not interested. With the tooling sitting at the Betts yard I thought it would be fun to explore other ways to use that hull. Basically, I drew what I would want. I was the "client". We almost had one sold but the buyer wanted an alu boat. I played more with this Buppyboat idea eventually getting to the 62'er I posted here this morning. That 62 is my "dream boat". It has everything I want and have learned about design over the last few years. Of course it's not what other people would want. It is the antithesis of "Euro" by design. It's pure PNW. But it's a two million dollar boat so it's not within my reach financially. But I enjoyed exploring the idea.

 

Too bad you don't do Facebook but I certainly understand. It has worked quite well for me. I think you would enjoy this Excellence in Yacht Design series. Charley Morgan is 92 years old and he went on for almost three hours and I think he was sorry when the questions stopped. It gives me a chance to step back and let another designer take over for a day.

 

Friday I have a meeting with the owner of this plane. I suppose there are a lot more efficient and modern ways to fly yourself around but this client likes his plane and I can certainly see why. I am hoping I get to go flying with him.

 

Buppy 61 3-19-21.jpg

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21 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Istream:

The Buppyboat 43 ("Buppy" is what my two grandkids call me) is the carbon cutter hull with essentially the layout of the Baba 40 PH model. It's one of the best layouts I have drawn and they are very popular boats but sadly not in production anymore and very hard to find used. The layout of the four carbon cutters is unique in that it's designed for offshore passagemaking and given that it would have no appeal to the PNW cruiser. There is not a double berth in the boat. I drew a layout with a double berth but the client was not interested. With the tooling sitting at the Betts yard I thought it would be fun to explore other ways to use that hull. Basically, I drew what I would want. I was the "client". We almost had one sold but the buyer wanted an alu boat. I played more with this Buppyboat idea eventually getting to the 62'er I posted here this morning. That 62 is my "dream boat". It has everything I want and have learned about design over the last few years. Of course it's not what other people would want. It is the antithesis of "Euro" by design. It's pure PNW. But it's a two million dollar boat so it's not within my reach financially. But I enjoyed exploring the idea.

 

Too bad you don't do Facebook but I certainly understand. It has worked quite well for me. I think you would enjoy this Excellence in Yacht Design series. Charley Morgan is 92 years old and he went on for almost three hours and I think he was sorry when the questions stopped. It gives me a chance to step back and let another designer take over for a day.

 

Friday I have a meeting with the owner of this plane. I suppose there are a lot more efficient and modern ways to fly yourself around but this client likes his plane and I can certainly see why. I am hoping I get to go flying with him.

 

Thanks for the rundown. I thought the 43 looked familiar. I seem to recall you drew a PH version of the Carbon Cutters at one point and it looked great. Glad to see it reincarnated. 

I hope you get that ride on Friday. I love the sound of a radial piston engine. The only thing better is the sound of two radial piston engines. Whenever those radial-powered Kenmore Air seaplanes cruise by, I just stop and listen. 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

 I posted that photo for one reason only: to show one way that tiller and traveller can share the same space, which Bob thought was not possible

I’m sure an exceptionally talented and experienced Naval Architect like Bob is quite familiar with that setup from decades ago.
 

I’m thinking that you need to come up with an entirely different design criteria that would suit the boat that you want to see being designed.

But, then again, you could just buy a Pogo instead.

 

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I really like the way that the traveller is done on the Dehler 32, a boat which in concept is not that different to the discussed design.

Dehler 32 - More feeling of space per metre

By the way, what is with you 'muricans using 'euro' as derogatory term? It's not really like you're known internationally as purveyors of fine taste :rolleyes:

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10 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

 I posted that photo for one reason only: to show one way that tiller and traveller can share the same space, which Bob thought was not possible

I’m sure an exceptionally talented and experienced Naval Architect like Bob is quite familiar with that setup from decades ago.

That is also what I would have thought, but ...

4 hours ago, Bob Perry said:

Traveler on the transom is a good idea but the 28 has an outboard rudder and an open transom making that solution a bit of a problem

 

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Misbehavin:

First off, that trav on the transom edge won't work for my client. and our outboard rudder.

Secondly:

I never intend to use "Euro" as a derogatory term, far from it. I look at the current crop of European production boats and  see a commonality in the style of their design. I just use the term "Euro" because it seems to make sense to me. If you take it as a derogatory term  I'm sorry if you see it that way but I can't control how you interpret things. You may be projecting. I quite like the European approach to styling. I'm a real fan of the X Boats. I love the Pogo's. It's just not my style. I'm a woolly shirt and suspenders (braces) kind of guy with two wet dogs.

 

Vicki.jpg

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“Not possible” and “making that solution a bit of a problem” are two entirely different ideas. 

On one hand, you want that traveller across the transom and on the other, Bob is designing a boat with Mr. McCuddy that has a narrow cockpit sole at the transom to allow egress to water toys, dinghy, etc.  the traveller would be about 2’ wide…

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3 minutes ago, Crash said:

Leggs, you should read and heed this.  Teddy was talking about you here...

i have always deplored the sort of person who champions action but denounces analysis of whether that action is a good idea, and who prefers pompous putdowns to acknowledging that he had overlooked something.  Teddy Roosevelt did a lot of very good stuff, but also some wildly bad stuff like the invasion of Cuba.  He would have been a better man if he had cut out some of the vanity and heroism

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

i have always deplored the sort of person who champions action but denounces analysis of whether that action is a good idea, and who prefers pompous putdowns to acknowledging that he had overlooked something.  Teddy Roosevelt did a lot of very good stuff, but also some wildly bad stuff like the invasion of Cuba.  He would have been a better man if he had cut out some of the vanity and heroism

Speaking of vanity... 

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20 minutes ago, Bob Perry said:

Misbehavin:

First off, that trav on the transom edge won't work for my client. and our outboard rudder.

Secondly:

I never intend to use "Euro" as a derogatory term, far from it. I look at the current crop of European production boats and  see a commonality in the style of their design. I just use the term "Euro" because it seems to make sense to me. If you take it as a derogatory term  I'm sorry if you see it that way but I can't control how you interpret things. You may be projecting. I quite like the European approach to styling. I'm a real fan of the X Boats. I love the Pogo's. It's just not my style. I'm a woolly shirt and suspenders (braces) kind of guy with two wet dogs.

 

Vicki.jpg

Sure, if it doesn't work for the client, then it doesn't work for the client. Going slightly off topic, if somone really wanted an aft traveller and outboard (double) rudders, then I think Elan had a quite neat solution on their 210.

Elan 210 nominers til Årets Båd 2012 i Europa - Minbaad.dk

 

And for projecting, who's projecting here? My comment wasn't aimed at you, I know you have an open mind, I've read your design reviews.

Btw. please send my best regards to your friend Mr. Ron Holland and tell him that I really appreciate my new-to-me, Omega 30 (S), designed by him.

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