Trapeze harness rule change locked in!

[Jethrow 411]

I'd heard murmurings over the past decade mentioning possible changes to trapeze hook rules but didn't know it was already locked in!

https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/trapeze-harness-rules-changed/

[14berlin 44]

I believe the T3 doesn't comply with ISO 10862? Is there any product that does?

[Roy166808 36]

4 hours ago, 14berlin said:

I believe the T3 doesn't comply with ISO 10862? Is there any product that does?

I've got a custom nappy harness hope that passes regulations lmao i just bought it.

[Roy166808 36]

Magic marine smart harness might comply?

[Jethrow 411]

2 minutes ago, Roy166808 said:

I've got a custom nappy harness hope that passes regulations lmao i just bought it.

Not a chance with a fixed hook...

[Roy166808 36]

1 minute ago, Jethrow said:

Not a chance with a fixed hook...

ffs

[Roy166808 36]

It says at the bottom that they will choose which classes this rule will apply too unless i read it wrong

 

[maxstaylock 381]

Fuck ISAF, and fuck the clown car they drove into town.  Entrapment due to trap hooks is statistically insignificant, but the cure will cause many more accidents than the supposed risk.  Have any ISAF boar members ever actually gone out on the wire?  They introduce to the games a couple of untested dinner tray classes that sweep the ocean with long bits of ultra strong invisible piano wire, so their natural response is to legislate 60 year old proven safe technology out of existence?  Seriously, sacking is too good for them, they should be made to pay it all back first.  Think I'll just get a cruising boat, racing is broken.  

[Roy166808 36]

7 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

Fuck ISAF, and fuck the clown car they drove into town.  Entrapment due to trap hooks is statistically insignificant, but the cure will cause many more accidents than the supposed risk.  Have any ISAF boar members ever actually gone out on the wire?  They introduce to the games a couple of untested dinner tray classes that sweep the ocean with long bits of ultra strong invisible piano wire, so their natural response is to legislate 60 year old proven safe technology out of existence?  Seriously, sacking is too good for them, they should be made to pay it all back first.  Think I'll just get a cruising boat, racing is broken.  

Ye i get you, Is a 505 a isaf class? I just realised the 49er is soo time to find a way to comply with there rules while still having a proper harness, Because fuck zhik harnesses i'd like to have children one day.

[fastyacht 2,603]

505 is an international class.

[Roy166808 36]

1 minute ago, fastyacht said:

505 is an international class.

Thanks, I knew that but i didn't think they where associated with isaf lol

 

[Crazy Horse 47]

I have been using the Magic Marine harnesses for approx 15 years, older ones like mine had a hook that was spring loaded held in place by a clip with Velcro release tag. Thankfully never had to use in anger, close after hook was trapped in the trampoline lashing. I used the harness recently and as I put weight on it to get on the wire the hook came away from the retaining boss that is held by the clip. What was left looked like it failed due to crevice corrosion. Difficult to buy the replacement hook in Australia as they have change the design with the hook having a wider base and more retaining it. Time to buy a new harness, I will continue to have the quick release hook and spreader bar. As with my kitesurfing harness I will include a ceramic line cutter.

[Rambler 507]

This is where Australian Sailing majorly fails.

They put out a statement like that with absolutely no guidance as to whether such harnesses actually exist and if they do, whether they can be bought in Australia. Sort of like 'not my job'.

I'm safety conscious, have been aware of this issue boiling for years with no apparent solution, have just bought a new T3 to replace my old T2, in each case thinking a Velcro release was the best I could find (having previously had a Gill release hook version that had more problems than it solved) and now I find I've wasted my money.

Not happy 

[PaulK 597]

Looks like they're delaying implementation of the rule until 2023 to give time for the manufacturers to produce hooks that comply.  Are there any now that do?  It seems ominous that Australian Sailing couldn't find any. Would it have been helpful for them to include ISO standard 10862, so we could know what the requirements are? It appears that you have to buy it to find out what it says.  CHF 58  = $62.83 USD today. Otherwise, they do post the definitions of the terms they use free to the public: https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:10862:ed-1:v1:en   Annoying not to be able to see what is required.  World Sailing et al still working in smoke-filled back rooms. 

[Crazy Horse 47]

You should buy a harness that delivers the safest option for you now, whether that is with a releaseable hook is up to you. In my opinion it has always been a good idea and was discussed years ago. AS regulations will be introduced whether you agree or not and in a timeframe to allow compliance, trapeze harnesses have a limited life. I understand that you are on a limited budget trying to cobble together a Frankenstein 49er but some items should not be done at the cheapest cost. 

[Roy166808 36]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You should buy a harness that delivers the safest option for you now, whether that is with a releaseable hook is up to you. In my opinion it has always been a good idea and was discussed years ago. AS regulations will be introduced whether you agree or not and in a timeframe to allow compliance, trapeze harnesses have a limited life. I understand that you are on a limited budget trying to cobble together a Frankenstein 49er but some items should not be done at the cheapest cost. 

My harness was not that cheap it was about 200$ custom made, I've used quick release harnesses before i've nearly gotten stuck in the footloop multiple times.

There is no current actually working quick release harness with no faults and compliance with the rules.

 

[Rambler 507]

58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You should buy a harness that delivers the safest option for you now, whether that is with a releaseable hook is up to you. In my opinion it has always been a good idea and was discussed years ago. AS regulations will be introduced whether you agree or not and in a timeframe to allow compliance, trapeze harnesses have a limited life. I understand that you are on a limited budget trying to cobble together a Frankenstein 49er but some items should not be done at the cheapest cost. 

So there's a multitude of readily available harnesses that already comply?

Within my world the T3 looked like the safest available to me, but won't seemingly be good enough.

This idea has been around for ages and no one I know of has yet come up with a solution that definitely works in all circumstances. And if there's one which meets this standard, why didn't AS tell us what it is?

[fastyacht 2,603]

iF YO U do a quick search you will see that the British sailing organisation has some sort of notice about it to see if they can get manufacturers onboard.

I think you wull find zip zilch nada at the moment.

So I wil keep using my hand made U.S. made harness.

 

[ojfd 73]

Relax, guys, we've been down this road before. This is the wording from the 2005-2008 Rules:

Quote

RRS 2005-2008
40.2 A trapeze or hiking harness shall have a device that can quickly
release the competitor from the boat at any time while in use.
Note: This rule takes effect on 1 January 2006.

Then, in 2009 it got deleted and hasn't appeared in the Rules until the current wording. Anyone want to guess what the outcome of this is going to be?

[RobG 816]

Is there any harness that currently has a compliant attachment method? Pointless to have a rule that is practically impossible to follow.

The 18s have a class rule or SI or whatever that means they don't wear PFDs when racing, can the new harness rule be similarly circumvented?

[Rambler 507]

The problem here is that they seem t be mandating something that doesn't yet exist.

If a manufacturer does come up with one in say 12 months, then every trapeze powered sailor has to buy one in three months.

Terrible economics (monopoly vendor of a product), let alone supply issues.

Do these guys live in the real world or, like too many politicians, come straight out of Political Science (or some sailing equivalent) without ever having some experience of real life?

[ojfd 73]

48 minutes ago, RobG said:

Is there any harness that currently has a compliant attachment method?

RWO has been around for some time. In fact, their stuff was available even back then.

.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rwo+trapeze+quick+release

https://rwo-marine.com/store/personal-equipment/trapeze-harness-hook/r4029-qrh-spreader-bar-small-pk-size-1/

 

[Bored Stiff 106]

What is the point of a safety standard you have to pay to read?  And how can it be legal for the rules to reference a standard you have to pay to read?

[Mozzy Sails 954]

2 hours ago, ojfd said:

RWO has been around for some time. In fact, their stuff was available even back then.

.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rwo+trapeze+quick+release

https://rwo-marine.com/store/personal-equipment/trapeze-harness-hook/r4029-qrh-spreader-bar-small-pk-size-1/

 

I don't believe this is compliant with the test. Also, the one I had was awful. Within a month's use the hook was worn and no longer released. 

Our class (RS 800) did some research and posted a question to the RYA. As yet there are no compliant harnesses on the market, and only one manufacturer has plans for development (but not actually developed). 

We still have another year until the rule comes in, so we've put off any class rule change. I think generally the class didn't want to make a class rule which limited the uptake of safer equipment. But if it wasn't possible for our sailors to have a decent choice when buying their new harness, then we would likely make a class rule to remove the requirement. 

I think it's a bit of a chicken and egg. The manufacturers won't pile R&D and certification cash until the rule is a certainty and they've lost trust once (or twice before). On the other hand the rule will struggle to make it through without classes removing or being ignored until there is a decent selection on the market. 

[14berlin 44]

20 hours ago, Jethrow said:

Not a chance with a fixed hook...

They sell the velcro as quick release. For me this feels like one of the safest options around.

But at most of the events we are required to wear lifejackets which again require rash guards so the whole velcro thing is useless anyway.

[Roy166808 36]

1 hour ago, 14berlin said:

They sell the velcro as quick release. For me this feels like one of the safest options around.

But at most of the events we are required to wear lifejackets which again require rash guards so the whole velcro thing is useless anyway.

Aint compliant tho? Dont worry about quick release until they add the rules , But if you really want to go for a  quick release go for magic marine smart harness, They have a lower fail rate, For me rn im gonna stick with the fixed hook because i like keeping my ankles in tack.

[Roy166808 36]

6 hours ago, RobG said:

Is there any harness that currently has a compliant attachment method? Pointless to have a rule that is practically impossible to follow.

The 18s have a class rule or SI or whatever that means they don't wear PFDs when racing, can the new harness rule be similarly circumvented?

From what the rules say the harness shouldn't release its the hook if thats what ur asking, Yes the 18 footers make a lot of sense hopefully isaf can follow them one day

[Rambler 507]

2 hours ago, 14berlin said:

They sell the velcro as quick release. For me this feels like one of the safest options around.

But at most of the events we are required to wear lifejackets which again require rash guards so the whole velcro thing is useless anyway.

I insist my trainees wear the life vest inside the harness for just that reason. Harness on top of everything

[Roy166808 36]

2 minutes ago, Rambler said:

I insist my trainees wear the life vest inside the harness for just that reason. Harness on top of everything

Ye, works if you've got a harness designed for that purpose.

[Rambler 507]

4 minutes ago, Roy166808 said:

Ye, works if you've got a harness designed for that purpose.

Yes T2 and T3 Zhik with Velcro closures.

Mind you, whether you can do it when panicking is another matter.

[Roy166808 36]

33 minutes ago, Rambler said:

Yes T2 and T3 Zhik with Velcro closures.

Mind you, whether you can do it when panicking is another matter.

Oh i was just meaning that it works for your harness to be over your life jacket. Which most don't work too well but zhik works kind fine.

[Lost in Translation 62]

I suspect many sailors existing harnesses also don’t comply with the weight rules that caused protests and place changes at the recent Olympics where the harness is soaked, let to hang for a short period of time, and then weighed. Must be less than 2 kg which seems tight already and will get tighter still with this change. 
 

I watched a friend have his safety quick release come off while sitting on the tramp. Harness was then unusable until he sailed in and ordered replacement parts.  Not a fan of any of these newer rules. 

[Rambler 507]

8 hours ago, Roy166808 said:

Oh i was just meaning that it works for your harness to be over your life jacket. Which most don't work too well but zhik works kind fine.

Ah!

I admit, it doesn't sit as well. It would be more comfortable the other way around. I'm tall, so the straps keep falling off my shoulder.

[Crazy Horse 47]

4 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

I suspect many sailors existing harnesses also don’t comply with the weight rules that caused protests and place changes at the recent Olympics where the harness is soaked, let to hang for a short period of time, and then weighed. Must be less than 2 kg which seems tight already and will get tighter still with this change. 
 

I watched a friend have his safety quick release come off while sitting on the tramp. Harness was then unusable until he sailed in and ordered replacement parts.  Not a fan of any of these newer rules. 

The Magic Marine harness I have was the same, release the hook and the harness was useless unless you had a replacement hook and installation would not have been easy on a boat. As it is only meant to be released as a last resort and saving your life was a higher priority than continuing to race etc. Later version has a keeper to retain the released hook on the trapeze loop, similar to those used for years that stop the hook releasing when manoeuvring etc. Always hated those so that would be the first thing I would remove.

Another income stream for WS, manufacturers would have to submit their harnesses for testing with a fee paid. Approval given then they would be on the “list”, would any manufacturers see the return on investment in this? The market just isn’t that big. 

I wear the harness under the life jacket then with a long sleeve rash top or wind breaker on top of that for reduced wind age etc. No quick way to dump the harness, I have used a kite boarding waist harness as well on top of everything, no shoulder support or preventer from riding up. On short course racing it did work well. Would like to try a pair of kite boarding shorts with harness built in as an option. The hook on the kiteboarding harnesses are wide so require a mating receiver on the trapeze line to match, some also have a sliding rope rather than spreader bar. Another option with low friction ring etc. Most of these have a v shaped ceramic line cutter well placed that would be useful on a yacht harness.

On a two crew boat we always looked out for each other, trained to swipe your free hand down to release the hook and first comment at capsize etc was are you OK. Priority for visual confirmation, stay with the boat etc

Now I am mostly single handed on a boat that sails on it side quicker than what I can swim is remain in contact with the boat normally through the main sheet, clear the trapeze hook so you don’t get towed out of control, get onto a hull and ready for righting. Right the boat and get back on, if done right you are on a hull as the boat rights. 

 Regulations will come and go with the review of fatalities etc. The authorities will feel better as they add another layer to the onion, in practice they can make the risk higher.

Practice the scenarios on your yacht the safety  of you and your crew are your responsibility so sail above the minimum but most of all have fun.

[SimonN 720]

On 10/14/2021 at 10:51 PM, maxstaylock said:

Entrapment due to trap hooks is statistically insignificant, but the cure will cause many more accidents than the supposed risk.  

Total bullshit

Fact 1 - almost every drowning I know of involving small boats when racing has been caused by hook entanglement. What is far less commonly reported is the number of entanglements that lead to "near misses". I know of a fair number including myself.

I have used a harness with a quick release hook for something like 14 years now and it is 100% reliable. I am not sure why you would say that it will cause accidents. Very worst case, there are 2 thibngs that could happen. It might not release, which is no worse than where we are now and it might release when it shouldn't, in which case you fall in the water, which is no different from a broken trapeze wire or not hooking on properly etc.

This rule is a positive step forward and time has been given to allow people to develop the gear and for sailors to get the right harness. The reactions reminds me of when the tightened up on pfd rules and everybody said it would be the end of the world

[fastyacht 2,603]

This isnt a complicayrd piecr of machinery...making it possible to unbuckle seems a rrasonable idea.

 

 

[Roy166808 36]

10 hours ago, SimonN said:

Total bullshit

Fact 1 - almost every drowning I know of involving small boats when racing has been caused by hook entanglement. What is far less commonly reported is the number of entanglements that lead to "near misses". I know of a fair number including myself.

I have used a harness with a quick release hook for something like 14 years now and it is 100% reliable. I am not sure why you would say that it will cause accidents. Very worst case, there are 2 thibngs that could happen. It might not release, which is no worse than where we are now and it might release when it shouldn't, in which case you fall in the water, which is no different from a broken trapeze wire or not hooking on properly etc.

This rule is a positive step forward and time has been given to allow people to develop the gear and for sailors to get the right harness. The reactions reminds me of when the tightened up on pfd rules and everybody said it would be the end of the world

Worst case is you snap an ankle or ruin a worlds event + you can breathe under most boats so why are so many people drowning especially on 420s.

[fastyacht 2,603]

So many?

Likr three in the us in 20 years

[maxstaylock 381]

I can only find 2 in 20 years in the UK.  So slightly safer than using a set of IKEA shelves.  Much safer than either golf or crown green bowling.  A drop in the ocean compare to the number of people who die canoeing, or ribbing.  Or even the number of people who drown while using cars.  Come on RYA, you're supposed to be protecting boaters from petty bureaucracy, not instigating it.

[fastyacht 2,603]

"The Problem of Small Numbers"

[Roy166808 36]

10 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

I can only find 2 in 20 years in the UK.  So slightly safer than using a set of IKEA shelves.  Much safer than either golf or crown green bowling.  A drop in the ocean compare to the number of people who die canoeing, or ribbing.  Or even the number of people who drown while using cars.  Come on RYA, you're supposed to be protecting boaters from petty bureaucracy, not instigating it.

is rya in charge of that?