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Bridge deck travellers: safe? covenient?


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In the BP28 thread, lots of people dissented from my criticism of the bridge-deck-mounted mainsheet traveller.

I say it is inconvenient and dangerous; others say it is fine.

I say it is an idea which arose only because many boats designed from the 1960s to 1990s had short booms which didn't allow the traveller to be located further aft.   Nonsense, say the supporters; it's the best place for a traveller, unless you advocate mid-boom sheeting (which many of us agree is heresy).  Many renowned designers and excellent builders created boats with this layout, and who the hell are you to say they were wrong?

scotland.boatshed.com-sadler_32-boat-266246.html-boatmedia-49.thumb.jpg.b59b3ca98280b8355169c34f2db84fb1.jpgSo, let's take a look at a bridge-deck-mounted mainsheet traveller.  Many boats had this layout, but I chose the first good photo I found (see right), of a very nicely maintained 1988 Sadler 32, in an expired Scottish broker's listing.

That seem to me to be a fairly typical example of the type, from a popular boat (about 300 built 1979–1989).   

Please leave aside the design constraints, and the possible alternatives.  Just look at how you would use this particular cockpit.

Imagine that you and a pal were sailing this boat on a long close-hauled starboard tack up the Scottish coast.  It's blowing F4/5, so you have a few rolls in the genoa and one reef in the main, and the sprayhood is up.

The boat is going nicely through long seas, and you are enjoying the helm.  Your pal is happy to relax and preserve their energy for a later shift, but it's a bright sunny day and pal doesn't want to go below.

But nor does pal want to bracing themself to windward.  Pal wants to be to leeward, under the shelter of the sprayhood, with their legs up.  Pal is debating whether to lie down on the port cockpit seat with head on the bridgedeck, or sit to port with bum on the bridgedeck and legs aft.  The traveller is centred, so there is plenty of room: the control line in its jammer keeps the traveller car way from your pals' body.

So what do you pay to your pal?

I would say something like "No way, Pal.  That traveller is heavily loaded, and if is released it's coming at you hard.  If you are laid down, it slices through yer neck ; if you are seated it will crush your hip.  Rope can break, and jammers can slip or be dislodged -- so stay out of its way".

My pal might reply "But that's the perfect place to sit.  Sheltered, secure, with a great view aft."  To which I would reply "All true.  But on this boat, not safe".

And we'd sit and lament how this design feature bollixed the perfect relaxing seat.

But fans of the bridgedeck traveller appear to disagree, which puzzles me.  What do you say to your pal who asks if it is safe?

  1. "Wheesht, Pal.  Heavily-loaded metal in the neck did anyone any harm".
  2. "Ya feartie.  The traveller probably won't slip".
  3. "If that traveller takes a slice off your fat arse, you'll look all the better for it".
  4. "Why ya wanna sit there, Pal?  Go plant your self on the weather rail and keep the spray off me"
  5. "What's your problem, Pal?  That traveller was put there by a brilliant designer"
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My cutter has a pin car bridge deck traveller and doesn’t go across the entire cockpit. The boat is so big that the main sheet and traveller don’t obstruct the crew or seem to be a cause for alarm. The traveller on my Catalina is on top of the cabin. I like that option because it doesn’t have a bridge deck and it wouldn’t work without obstructing the open transom. 

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60D538E8-9CF7-4DCF-9975-5D183E039F9D.jpeg

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3 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

My cutter has a pin car bridge deck traveller and doesn’t go across the entire cockpit. The boat is so big that the main sheet and traveller don’t obstruct the crew or seem to be a cause for alarm.

That seems to me to mean to that the traveller is OK 'cos a) it's short, and b) it cannot travel under load.   All of which does make it safer, but also makes it much less useful for its primary purpose.

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I would think to move the traveller to the aft coaming and aft sheeting if I converted it back to the pedestal helm, but since I took so much effort to remove it and laminate a tiller for it, I’m stuck. It’s present location makes single handing a pain with the pedestal, hence the tiller. 

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I personally don't like bridge deck travellers - they are inconvenient in a number of ways, but dangerous? :rolleyes:

 

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The recessed bridge deck traveller on our C&C 29-2 was never a concern. With reliable line-handling gear (like the Harken cam cleats I had) it shouldn't be a problem for any boat.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

The recessed bridge deck traveller on our C&C 29-2 was never a concern. With reliable line-handling gear (like the Harken cam cleats I had) it shouldn't be a problem for any boat.

ish, would you let your pal sit or lie to leeward of that traveller?

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591E70F5-B17E-4E33-AA5D-4C8C1E05832D.thumb.jpeg.398df0ced46dd7e85b880c55667285b0.jpeg

My boat for life, which ya I’ve been sailing since before 18, has its end boom sheeting land the traveller right by the wheel, exactly where I need it to...sail the boat.

As for lazy crew or people dozing off while tanning on the lee side of a loaded line, as the cockpit cushions(they are split at the traveller so you can still use it)cover a locked, recessed traveller when in cruise mode...that’s where the little guy in the picture comes in. He’s trained to bark when either a traveller gets too loaded or when someone’s tan is becoming to uneven, at which point he’s essentially calling a tack.

And as for being too loaded, as I have a soft boom vang and only an uphaul, I’m standing in the bight of a falling boom every time I pass someone a sundowner even while I’m in my slip. So far so good...

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1 minute ago, Kris Cringle said:

1629886903_NorthHavenanchoragesailingRocklandTommy.thumb.jpg.6b54d3e984590236ed1a017cf69d430b.jpg

Well that just starts a different debate about sheet attachment points on pulpit rails and on top of biminis…

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Just now, mgs said:
1 minute ago, Kris Cringle said:

1629886903_NorthHavenanchoragesailingRocklandTommy.thumb.jpg.6b54d3e984590236ed1a017cf69d430b.jpg

Expand  

Well that just starts a different debate about sheet attachment points on pulpit rails and on top of biminis…

Not to mention coated lifelines.

And pets onboard without vests.

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24 minutes ago, mgs said:

Well that just starts a different debate about sheet attachment points on pulpit rails and on top of biminis…

Then we have to re-visit the pulpit vs pushpit debate

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25 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

1629886903_NorthHavenanchoragesailingRocklandTommy.thumb.jpg.6b54d3e984590236ed1a017cf69d430b.jpg

Kris, i note that you played the same trick as @Sail4beer did.  Instead of responding to the question about a traveller with control line, you respond with a picture of a traveller pinned in place.

Would yet your dog sleep there if that traveller car was held in place only a control line in a jam cleat designed to be easily released?

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19 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
32 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

ish, would you let your pal sit or lie to leeward of that traveller?

I did, many times. I even let my wife sit there.

Wow.  Did you stop using the traveller while she was there?  Or just try to remember to re-cleat the control line before the traveller car hit her?

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My tuppence:


Never, ever be in the line of reaction of taught lines. I could give personal examples from exploding blocks on yachts to wires cutting men in half on ships. 


Another thought: if the bridge deck is so shallow as to be able to comfortably step over to go below it is not suitable as a transverse ‘bunk’ under the dodger.

if it is deep enough for that it requires stepping up onto before going below. I don’t think that is a good option. Head maybe near to boom, hands too high above deck holds. 
 

Back in the 70s I thought big gennys and short foot mains were sexy. But I was just a child of IOR. 
I wouldn’t think of such an arrangement today.

 

Rgds,

 

CovBoy  

 

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I think a traveler in the cockpit is almost always inconvenient at best. I think the ideal is the aft end, with control lines set up so that the helm can reach them. Safety depends on a lot of things, when it's in the cockpit.

As a solution in some cases, how about adding some length to the boom? It would get the traveler out of the cockpit and behind the rudder post, and improve the mainsheet leverage. Like this:

15204277_h-boat_drawingcopy.jpg.d85687b16a191d66a32505ce8b1553c4.jpg

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TL, 
 

In all seriousness, yes I advise people to steer clear of the bight of a loaded traveller. If it’s someone laying down on the cockpit seat, all they really have to due is move their legs from straight to slightly bent without batting an eyelash, so it’s an easy ask.

Safety wise, bridgedeck, crosscockpit at seat height or on the cabin sole travellers all equally have a chance of being an issue whether due to gear failure or user error. The most common user error is to forget to cleat the lee side of the traveller before tacking, which is why in most casual sailing scenarios I just keep the traveller locked at centre.

And, as for that boat for life question in the other thread, not all bridgedeck travellers are created equal!C6AD2125-A1BF-40C9-9AB1-13C5806CDCC5.thumb.jpeg.def732d4a6449b4861e126f0c43c0ff3.jpeg

 

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Bull,

Logical thinking but no one likes the look of a cheap main bought secondhand off a smaller yacht. 
 

JOKE!

 

Rgds

 

CovBoy

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52 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Wow.  Did you stop using the traveller while she was there?  Or just try to remember to re-cleat the control line before the traveller car hit her?

In that case of relaxed sailing the traveller car was cleated to center, more or less. Once it got more boisterous she moved to the high side. No problem.

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53 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I would say something like "No way, Pal.  That traveller is heavily loaded, and if is released it's coming at you hard.  If you are laid down, it slices through yer neck ; if you are seated it will crush your hip.  Rope can break, and jammers can slip or be dislodged -- so stay out of its way".

I don't think this is something to particularly worry about.

If you can adjust the traveler line by hand, then the load on the line is almost certainly under 50 lbs.  A well sized traveler should keep the force below 30 lbs in any conditions where someone might want to lounge to leeward.  The traveler on that Sadler 32 appears to have a 3x1 mechanical advantage, which implies a normal side load from the main of under 90lbs.  Maybe 150lbs if the traveler is undersized.

The lines on most travelers are sized for handling, not load.  That looks like a 3/8th inch line on that Sadler's traveler.  3/8th inch braided dacron should have a breaking strength of around 4400 lbs.  So the safety factor in ordinary conditions is probably at least 90x.  If the line breaks, it's most likely going to happen during a jibe when it experiences shock loading.  Standing to leeward of the boom and mainsheet during a jibe is dangerous anyways.  Chafe is the most likely cause of failure, but it's easy to replace lines if they look frayed.

On larger boats, the loads can become dangerous, but in that case, there's usually a better place to sprawl than on the traveler.

There are a lot of ways to hurt oneself on a boat.  If it makes you uncomfortable, don't sit to leeward of the mainsheet, but I think your hypothetical guest is way more likely to be hurt by the boom itself, or the winches, or by falling, etc.  Speaking of winches, crushed fingers while adjusting the traveler are probably the most common injury.

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

In the BP28 thread, lots of people dissented from my criticism of the bridge-deck-mounted mainsheet traveller.

I say it is inconvenient and dangerous; others say it is fine.

 

I will cross boats off my shopping list if they have this feature, it seems a great way to kill someone if you gybe while they are coming on deck.

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We know of lots of sailors that have died because of swinging booms. Try to find some that were seriously injured by a traveller that was not cleated or the cleat failed.

 

I had an end boom traveller on my catamaran. It was 12' long.  (320 sq ft IOR style mainsail.) Because it was 4:1 and I  was cheap  didn't want 48' of line at each end it was on an endless loop. It did some unintended slides when it wasn't properly cleated at both ends (accidental gybes). 

Yes, if my hand was sitting on the track I would have taken a nasty whack. But serious injury - I don't think so. Maybe eye injury from the mainsheet line??

 

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1 hour ago, CovBoy said:

Never, ever be in the line of reaction of taught lines.

How about if they are uneducated?

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I’m not playing any tricks. This is a discussion which has different opinions. Yours is different from everyone else’s so far. Boats are dangerous luxuries and all kinds of bad things happen at the most unexpected time.

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I have owned a couple of Fractional rigged long boom boats with the traveller on the bridge deck.One 29 foot, one 36 foot.

Yes I would let people lie to leewaerd when cruising. Best spot for a snooze or to read a book.

Yes I often left the traveller preset in the middle prestart to avoid anyone getting tangled up if I was chasing a favoured spot.

Yes, I often had to remind the mainsheet hand to preset the leeward traveller rope before a tack. But that was to hold my height out of the tack more than concern for crew.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Kris, i note that you played the same trick as @Sail4beer did.  Instead of responding to the question about a traveller with control line, you respond with a picture of a traveller pinned in place.

Would yet your dog sleep there if that traveller car was held in place only a control line in a jam cleat designed to be easily released?

I think a traveler adds a little danger to a sailboat wherever it is located. But I agree, the bridgedeck location is slightly more dangerous. I've had one boat with a bridgedeck traveler (I installed it) and I didn't like it because it was inconvenient (it also wasn't flush like Ish's). The bridgedeck location was better access though as we were doing some racing then.

 

My present location is a safety concern at times as people will sit on the aft deck as the traveler is just a flat bar and easy to put a cushion over. Very slow and useless for racing but good for sail trim. 

 

Racers will locate them for a millisecond advantage. I use mine as much to get the sail away from my smoke stack. The dog will bite if awakened so we let him lie where he wants. :)

 

I did alot of research on existing mainsheet arrangements when I built my cockpit from scratch. There are some crazy arrangements out there. 

 

371648352_Cockpitclose.thumb.jpg.3eba0a34343c47494874c5445e3d3dff.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

We know of lots of sailors that have died because of swinging booms. Try to find some that were seriously injured by a traveller that was not cleated or the cleat failed.

That absence of people seriously injured by a traveller may indicate lack of serious danger, or it may indicate that this hazard is successfully avoided -- by not sitting in that prime relaxation place on the leeward side of the bridgedeck.

Or it may indicate that injuries caused that way are usually not serious.

But it is not evidence that placing a traveller there has no detriment to use of that area.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

We know of lots of sailors that have died because of swinging booms. Try to find some that were seriously injured by a traveller that was not cleated or the cleat failed.

 

I had an end boom traveller on my catamaran. It was 12' long.  (320 sq ft IOR style mainsail.) Because it was 4:1 and I  was cheap  didn't want 48' of line at each end it was on an endless loop. It did some unintended slides when it wasn't properly cleated at both ends (accidental gybes). 

Yes, if my hand was sitting on the track I would have taken a nasty whack. But serious injury - I don't think so. Maybe eye injury from the mainsheet line??

 

I know someone who lost a couple toes by having their bare foot in the path of the traveler. I know of someone else who got launched by the sheet/traveler combo into the cockpit coaming, was out cold and had to be hauled to the hospital for skull x-rays.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

But it is not evidence that placing a traveller there has no detriment to use of that area.

There is no evidence presented to the contrary. I hate putting a helm station and 40” wheel in the middle of a cockpit, but there are numerous reasons that justify the device. Why not let this one go? We have the offset companionway because BS couldn’t let it go, I’d hate for you to be the BS of travellers:). Seriously, you know a ton more than me! 

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I’m trying to do my little Ellen tender some justice today. No boom, sprit rig with a simple bridle attached at the transom knees for an aft led main sheet. Lots of fun and sure to make any boat lover smile!

 

A9A72CEF-5DC9-490B-B545-CD889EE36EF2.jpeg

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B957AB5B-753C-4286-A779-FDE1CC96E6FA.jpeg

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3 hours ago, MFH125 said:

If you can adjust the traveler line by hand, then the load on the line is almost certainly under 50 lbs.  A well sized traveler should keep the force below 30 lbs in any conditions where someone might want to lounge to leeward.  The traveler on that Sadler 32 appears to have a 3x1 mechanical advantage, which implies a normal side load from the main of under 90lbs.  Maybe 150lbs if the traveler is undersized.

This doesn't sound like an accurate analysis of the loads.  It's the side load that will impact a person (or dog) sitting on the traveler, not the tail load of the sheet.  The side load could be far higher than 150 lbs., especially in a jibe.  Even without a jibe, it's possible to have a side load that cannot be adjusted by hand and someone might not realize that until they release the jam cleat to ease or trim the traveler, and WHAM!  Down goes the traveler with ~300 lbs. of force, or more.

With care, this accident waiting to happen is usually avoided or injuries are minor.  But it's a classic way to get a "boat bite".

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In fairness to Two Legged, she did start a new thread about the Deadly Bridgedeck Traveller Menace and ceased polluting Bobs thread about his 28 remake... but I am firmly convinced that it is a matter of opinion and that her's is no more or less valid than mine.

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Hey folks, I've got an idea! How about those who think bridgedeck travelers are a menace not buy boats that feature them!

Then again, what do I know? I own a boat with (*gasp*) mid-boom sheeting. And my traveler stays safely forward of my dodger where it won't hurt anyone and by virtue of its (*gasp*) mid-boom placement, is effective over about 90 degrees of boom swing.

Is that it? Can we close the thread now?

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1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

In fairness to Two Legged, she did start a new thread about the Deadly Bridgedeck Traveller Menace and ceased polluting Bobs thread about his 28 remake

I started the thread about the BP28, so I am not sure how it becomes 2Bob's thread", other than by his music-bombing.

1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I am firmly convinced that it is a matter of opinion and that her's is no more or less valid than mine.

scotland.boatshed.com-sadler_32-boat-266246.html-boatmedia-49.thumb.jpg.63d59b2c38518d9bfbdcfd644e48d6c6.jpgWhich is why I started this thread to ask people's opinion.  :)

So, Jim, go back to the opening post of this thread.  What does Jim tell his pal who want to sit leeward of a highly-loaded traveller which is restrained only by a line in a jam cleat?  Does Jim tell his pal it's all fine to sit there?

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I personally don't like bridge deck travellers - they are inconvenient in a number of ways, but dangerous? :rolleyes:

 

I like a racing boat's inverted arc traveler across the cockpit just forward of the helm, but that is inconvenient for anything other than actively sailing the boat for enjoyment; and if a bridge deck traveler is dangerous then this location must be too. Yes you can get hurt if some body part is in the wrong place during maneuvers.

Personally i wouldn't want a boat with a traveler above the companionway. It's awkward and difficult.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

In fairness to Two Legged, she did start a new thread about the Deadly Bridgedeck Traveller Menace and ceased polluting Bobs thread about his 28 remake... but I am firmly convinced that it is a matter of opinion and that her's is no more or less valid than mine.

Jim, if you check, I think you'll find that Two Legged started the thread on the I28 re-make. According to Sailing Anarchy Common Law, that makes it her thread, which she may freely pollute. 

Edit: Sorry folks. I had a delayed "Submit" and did not see TL's post.

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42 minutes ago, IStream said:

Hey folks, I've got an idea! How about those who think bridgedeck travelers are a menace not buy boats that feature them!

Then again, what do I know? I own a boat with (*gasp*) mid-boom sheeting. And my traveler stays safely forward of my dodger where it won't hurt anyone and by virtue of its (*gasp*) mid-boom placement, is effective over about 90 degrees of boom swing.

Is that it? Can we close the thread now?

I thought that on CA, it was legally permissible to simply ignore a thread which doesn't interest you.  If that's not the case, then i am guilty of multiple offences.  

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38 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I like a racing boat's inverted arc traveler across the cockpit just forward of the helm, but that is inconvenient for anything other than actively sailing the boat for enjoyment; and if a bridge deck traveler is dangerous then this location must be too. Yes you can get hurt if some body part is in the wrong place during maneuvers.

Personally i wouldn't want a boat with a traveler above the companionway. It's awkward and difficult.

FB- Doug

Our current trav is above the companionway. It's workable. At least it's not going to kill anyone if I tack suddenly.

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On my boat, which owes more to the CCA rule than IOR, the boom is end-sheeted to a traveller at the aft end of the cockpit, a couple of feet aft of the steering pedestal. I am keenly aware that the mainsheet could snag me at the helm in an uncontrolled gybe. I am situationally aware of the hazard. If I had a bridgedeck traveller, I would expect my 'pal' (as TL has dubbed him) to be similarly aware and, if she/he wasn't aware of the hazard, I would make sure they understood the risks and how to manage them: traveller car secured in both directions at all times in good cam cleats not jam cleats (as TL uses in her hypothetical scenario); moving appendages out of the way of the car when tacking, etc, etc. I manage the risks on my boat and I expect everyone else sailing with me to do so as well. Safety is a personal responsibility. Equipment specified as "fit for purpose" is the builder and NA's responsibility. Quality hardware prevents mishaps. There may be better arrangements than a bridgedeck traveller on a given design, but every design is a compromise. I think if sailing was a completely safe pastime, it would be more popular than golf - what a horrible thought!

TL: I apologize for implying that you were peeing in your own bathtub.

 

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Mine's way the hell back there. Plenty of risky shit on my boat, but being bit by the traveler doesn't seem to be one of them.

I don't remember ever sailing on a boat with a bridge deck traveler, so no educated opinion. I do dislike trying to get past obstacles.

PB080285 (1).jpeg

DSC_3007.jpeg

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9 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Can you give us a summary?

Summary of the summary:

Accidental gybe(s)

Rig came down

One crew died of impact with something and stayed on board.

Another crew went overboard and was never found.

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Personally i wouldn't want a boat with a traveler above the companionway. It's awkward and difficult.

FB- Doug

No, c'mon! It's perfect on a SJ24 with its long tiller. Singlehanding tack/gybe is a breeze!

2012-08-03_4584_SanJuan24LL.jpg

Bridgedeck, fuck yeah...CC-27-Cockpit-960x720.jpg

Traveler bifurcating the cockpit on the Niagara 26 I crew is ok 2 handed one crew forward the other aft but with 3 or 4 I always end up with bruised/cut shins. 

57clI087YDYQW91hw9G_7iyawUVScSzjgRszgTLZ

 

 

 

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I've sailed many boats with the traveller splitting the cockpit in 2, so got used not to sit across the traveller and also to immobilise completely the traveller on long tacks. I can't remember sailing on a boat with a bridge deck traveller, TBH my main concern would be that the front of the cockpit becomes too busy and inconvenient when tacking or reefing.

My preferred setup is traveller on the floor just ahead or behind the helm.

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7 hours ago, Panope said:

Summary of the summary:

Accidental gybe(s)

Rig came down

One crew died of impact with something and stayed on board.

Another crew went overboard and was never found.

But also: 

- large boat

- heavy roller-furling boom

- poorly designed preventer that broke

- failed autopilot led to loss of control 

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Safety is back: The traveler is history (duh), sole mounted trap doors for your (BARE) feet, nearly as fast as a 1968 poorly tuned Vespa with a large Italian woman on the back, and the companionway,...dead center. 

2059504591_ScreenShot2021-10-17at7_50_03AM.thumb.png.ce70d81d174f9887dbd3f1faa2389e7f.png

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^^ Is is just me, or does helmsman's perch strike y'all as very precarious? As far as I can tell, there is nothing astern of him.

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13 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I am firmly convinced that it is a matter of opinion and that her's is no more or less valid than mine.

Your disparaging remarks indicate that you are "firmly convinced" your opinion is more valid than hers.  Guess what?  Opinions can be flat out wrong, no matter how firmly convinced one may be.

I spoke recently with someone who works in retail and was firmly convinced that her O- blood type and strong immune system made the COVID vaccination completely unnecessary, and after all (according to her), it was only another variant of the flu.  Her husband was recovering now from his second bout of COVID...  I skipped the critical differences between the two and asked if she believed it was possible to be asymptomatic and still spread COVID to others, as reported since the earliest days of this pandemic.  She said yes.  * * *  Will it ever occur to her that she may have exposed her husband to COVID, twice?  The possibility is pretty damn obvious, eh?

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21 minutes ago, Bull City said:

^^ Is is just me, or does helmsman's perch strike y'all as very precarious? As far as I can tell, there is nothing astern of him.

There is a place for lifelines across the back, though it's not obvious they are connected?

My first thought was the possibility of pinching one's feet in that "trap door" he's standing on when it closes.  OUCH!

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49 minutes ago, Bull City said:

^^ Is is just me, or does helmsman's perch strike y'all as very precarious? As far as I can tell, there is nothing astern of him.

I assume that they took off the stern lifelines for the photoshoot.

Notice the person in front of the helmsman and how they are sitting?  Either they are very short or the cockpit seats are too wide.  And the seatbacks don't look to be all that high.  

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10 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

No, c'mon! It's perfect on a SJ24 with its long tiller. Singlehanding tack/gybe is a breeze!

2012-08-03_4584_SanJuan24LL.jpg

Bridgedeck, fuck yeah...CC-27-Cockpit-960x720.jpg

Traveler bifurcating the cockpit on the Niagara 26 I crew is ok 2 handed one crew forward the other aft but with 3 or 4 I always end up with bruised/cut shins. 

57clI087YDYQW91hw9G_7iyawUVScSzjgRszgTLZ

 

 

 

I knew I’d seen that boat somewhere!  Akutan Island, Aleutian Chain, Alaska

This happened despite not having a bridge deck traveler...

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”

 

1480EFBD-5A54-46FD-8185-3633A26ABC74.jpeg

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1 hour ago, slap said:

I assume that they took off the stern lifelines for the photoshoot.

Notice the person in front of the helmsman and how they are sitting?  Either they are very short or the cockpit seats are too wide.  And the seatbacks don't look to be all that high.  

I have no beef with lifelines, but their name reflects my philosophy toward them: They are the last thing between a bad moment and your final moment. (Probably comes from years as a trad climber.)

Hard to imagine an NA who thinks: "Sure the helm's heels are practically hanging off the transom, but there are a couple wire running across, half a step back, roughly mid-thigh. It's all good!"

Bench seats look approx 24" wide, which is too wide for comfortable crosswise sitting. Probably great for napping, tho.  17-18" is the seat depth guideline for furniture design. And the deeper the seat, the better the back support needs to be. On a shallow bench -- say, 10" -- the tendency is to sit upright or even lean forward slightly. A deeper seat, like a Morris or wingback chair, requires support from lumbars to cervicals, and preferably an ottoman or leg rest option. The extreme example of a deep seat is the hallowed (and to my back, hateful) Adirondack chair:

Amazon.com : Outdoor Interiors CD3111 Eucalyptus Adirondack Chair and Built  In Ottoman : Patio, Lawn & Garden

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

I have no beef with lifelines, but their name reflects my philosophy toward them: They are the last thing between a bad moment and your final moment. (Probably comes from years as a trad climber.)

Hard to imagine an NA who thinks: "Sure the helm's heels are practically hanging off the transom, but there are a couple wire running across, half a step back, roughly mid-thigh. It's all good!"

Bench seats look approx 24" wide, which is too wide for comfortable crosswise sitting. Probably great for napping, tho.  17-18" is the seat depth guideline for furniture design. And the deeper the seat, the better the back support needs to be. On a shallow bench -- say, 10" -- the tendency is to sit upright or even lean forward slightly. A deeper seat, like a Morris or wingback chair, requires support from lumbars to cervicals, and preferably an ottoman or leg rest option. The extreme example of a deep seat is the hallowed (and to my back, hateful) Adirondack chair:

Amazon.com : Outdoor Interiors CD3111 Eucalyptus Adirondack Chair and Built  In Ottoman : Patio, Lawn & Garden

 

 

I think those might be daybeds?

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I am less concerned about the traveller getting loose and going on a rampage, than I am about the general position of the sheet that results from a bridge deck traveller. It puts a heavily loaded line, which can also at times have a lot of slack with the resultant snatch, right in the middle of the crew. This is pretty much the only such line on a modern boat. We worry about the boom sweeping the cockpit on every tack and jibe, here you are adding a multipart tackle also sweeping the cockpit, and not above head level either. You can't just stay clear of it as you must pass by entering or exiting the cabin. And it will be annoyingly in the way, frequently. Your design may force you into such an arrangement, but it is far from ideal.

If the boom is so short that an end-boom sheet puts it above the bridgedeck, then a coachroof traveller isn't that bad an idea. Properly done, it need not add any stress to the gooseneck, and under many circumstances may actually reduce stress on the boom and the gooseneck. 

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20 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I think those might be daybeds?

 

39 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

I have no beef with lifelines, but their name reflects my philosophy toward them: They are the last thing between a bad moment and your final moment. (Probably comes from years as a trad climber.)

Hard to imagine an NA who thinks: "Sure the helm's heels are practically hanging off the transom, but there are a couple wire running across, half a step back, roughly mid-thigh. It's all good!"

Bench seats look approx 24" wide, which is too wide for comfortable crosswise sitting. Probably great for napping, tho.  17-18" is the seat depth guideline for furniture design. And the deeper the seat, the better the back support needs to be. On a shallow bench -- say, 10" -- the tendency is to sit upright or even lean forward slightly. A deeper seat, like a Morris or wingback chair, requires support from lumbars to cervicals, and preferably an ottoman or leg rest option. The extreme example of a deep seat is the hallowed (and to my back, hateful) Adirondack chair:

Amazon.com : Outdoor Interiors CD3111 Eucalyptus Adirondack Chair and Built  In Ottoman : Patio, Lawn & Garden

 

 

What is that awful, hard-edged, uncomfortable-looking wooden torture device?  A medieval rack?

Nikki says, “Go soft or go home!”

Being an ‘influencer,’ she even has helpful links and reviews to her fave products!

 

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11 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

What is that awful, hard-edged, uncomfortable-looking wooden torture device?  A medieval rack?

 

 

649 people watching this item

7 people have this item in their cart

Human beings are strange animals. :ph34r::o The rack does come with a 14 day returns guarantee, which is thoughtful. "A lot of screaming + begging, but he still hasn't agreed to the divorce. Natural fibre ropes stretch overnight, need constant tensioning. Request return authorization, or will exchange for hot iron set."

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58 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:
 

649 people watching this item

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Human beings are strange animals. :ph34r::o The rack does come with a 14 day returns guarantee, which is thoughtful. "A lot of screaming + begging, but he still hasn't agreed to the divorce. Natural fibre ropes stretch overnight, need constant tensioning. Request return authorization, or will exchange for hot iron set."

Seems like a good application for dyneema. 

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4 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

  The possibility is pretty damn obvious, eh?

In your opinion. Just ask her. She will refute your claim and your opinion. Probably cough on you too.

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

If the boom is so short that an end-boom sheet puts it above the bridgedeck, then a coachroof traveller isn't that bad an idea. Properly done, it need not add any stress to the gooseneck, and under many circumstances may actually reduce stress on the boom and the gooseneck. 

Coachroof travelers would be fine, but too many are curved to match the cabin top, so they bind, and you can't let them down without also loosening the mainsheet. Then you're jiggering two lines against each other -- a real pain with the main needing a winch, even with 4:1 purchase on a 30' boat. Not to mention way out of reach of the helmsman.

   

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2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:
 

649 people watching this item

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Human beings are strange animals. :ph34r::o 

Yes - that can’t be said enough.

I could go on.

And on... :-) (Are you telling me you haven’t heard of the creationist Islamic cult leader Adnan Oktar, who had a sex cult-religion centred on kittens —before recently being sentenced to over 1000 [not a typo] years in prison ?! :-) 

Any more would incite cruel thread drift.

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14 minutes ago, blurocketsmate said:

Coachroof travelers would be fine, but too many are curved to match the cabin top, so they bind, and you can't let them down without also loosening the mainsheet. Then you're jiggering two lines against each other -- a real pain with the main needing a winch, even with 4:1 purchase on a 30' boat. Not to mention way out of reach of the helmsman.

   

Of course anything can be executed badly. That is not an indictment of the concept. Everything on a boat is a compromise, just a bridgedeck traveller seems a particularly bad one. 

I've eliminated the traveller entirely, and use the vang for downward force and the sheet for boom position. 

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21 minutes ago, DDW said:

Of course anything can be executed badly. That is not an indictment of the concept. Everything on a boat is a compromise, just a bridgedeck traveller seems a particularly bad one. 

I've eliminated the traveller entirely, and use the vang for downward force and the sheet for boom position. 

Good solution 

be certain that your vang assembly is up to the task 

a boom preventer or boom sheet , like the ocean racers use,  can help to handle the high leech loads on a close reach and protect your vang, boom , gooseneck …

4BF897BA-BCEE-49EC-A551-1483A2CD0805.png

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40 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Are you telling me you haven’t heard of the creationist Islamic cult leader Adnan Oktar, who had a sex cult-religion centred on kittens

I had not, but I requested a copy of their brochure. I do love kittens!

 

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31 minutes ago, DDW said:

I've eliminated the traveller entirely, and use the vang for downward force and the sheet for boom position. 

Yes. But. Your vang....:lol:

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Current big boat has a death-defying bridge deck traveller and I’ve never felt it to be a hindrance.

On the previous/simultaneous boat, an old Cal 20, I retrofitted mid-boom sheeting (following the advice of on offshore Cal 20 sailor/racer), and the Lewmar traveller, shockingly, spanned the cockpit.  I was ok with that. And we discovered a few years later, prepping for R2AK, that the traveler location was actually perfect for our jury-rig rudimentary rowing set up (as a place to grip your legs on while rowing the 2,000 lb. boat...even a 14 year old can manage :-) )

52E97DCE-5DCB-465E-9E23-563E057B6044.jpeg

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22 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

There is no evidence presented to the contrary. I hate putting a helm station and 40” wheel in the middle of a cockpit, but there are numerous reasons that justify the device. Why not let this one go? We have the offset companionway because BS couldn’t let it go, I’d hate for you to be the BS of travellers:). Seriously, you know a ton more than me! 

Actually, the offset companion way thing started with Reis123 who was talking shit about buying a big Gannon & Benjamin work of art Schooner, Rebecca, but worried about having room for his security detail. 

This was back in the Tillerman days. 

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Ahhh, been schooled today in history! Thanks for informing me. As soon as cocktail hour is over I’ll go to the Wayback machine and see the threads. I think I confused BS and the upside down welded acorn nuts…

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7 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Ahhh, been schooled today in history! Thanks for informing me. As soon as cocktail hour is over I’ll go to the Wayback machine and see the threads. I think I confused BS and the upside down welded acorn nuts…

BS is the upside down welded boat nut.

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58 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Actually, the offset companion way thing started with Reis123 who was talking shit about buying a big Gannon & Benjamin work of art Schooner, Rebecca, but worried about having room for his security detail. 

This was back in the Tillerman days. 

See, I thought that was what the offset companionway was for in some of these older boats. The main companionway aft was for the owner, the offset companionway forward was for the crew. 

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

See, I thought that was what the offset companionway was for in some of these older boats. The main companionway aft was for the owner, the offset companionway forward was for the crew. 

Is it really true that some people on CA are so impoverished that they have to actually use the same companionway as their crew? ;) 

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