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Not much to report, the Aft Xframes are now in, huge tidy up of the hull/frames and preperation for bonding of the Breast hook in, probably Monday.

Yesterday was taken up with some critical 49er issues, and one of the potential sister ship builders chewed my ear off.

Plus Alex ran out of steam (post Covid) and it was very very humid in Gosford, so we called stumps early.

                      jB

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So I'm building a 89er for myself, there is a possibility of a sister ship being built, but really, at my age, and with Covid and wanting to sial with mates around Australia, I'm doning this for me, m

The stuff is known as Basalt Fibre, but Granite is cute! Glass fibre is just sand melted, Basalt is just Granite melted, same process, it's a very dark brown, almost olive-brown in colour.    T

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So we threw the boat up on it's side today, and did a whole day, just tabbing in frames, centrecases, and keelson's along with Kingplanks.

image.thumb.png.8c3d74f5796820eaad01d2299abc1c1d.png

Kingplank sitting ontop of the keelson and the X Frames.

image.thumb.png.7f6a96b116a5c11c1079b102f4ab533e.png

Alex hard at it, by the time we finished there was approx 3mm of basalt on all 6 surfaces, so

Aft Keelson, aft face of aft XFrame, fwd face of aft XFrame, mid keelson, Aft face Fwd XFrame, and Fwd face of Fed XFrame, everything got "tabbed" in, load areas with Basalt, non load areas with glass.

Then we flipped the boat and did it all again on the other side.

We left quickly but I will take some after shots tomorrow!

image.thumb.png.552f0bd0a25adb69981046fabdaa7eed.png

Just through I would share this with you, this is the bulkhead just infront of Alex in the picture above.

We have glued/bogged on a cap-strip, 2 x 300gm layers of Glass, we lamiante it down on the big glass table and once cured, we then strip it into 25mm wide strips, we take the peel ply off one side, bog it down onto the frame and then cove underneath so we get probably 10mm x 2 of gluing surface to the glass and then 8mm to the foam bulkhead.

Then when we are ready, after it's cured, we strip the peel ply off the other side and glue, in trhis case the breast hook down onto the strip, so we again get someting approaching 25mm of gluing joint.    Really simple blind bonding joint, it eliminates the need for "deck-ties" which are a total pain~!

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11 minutes ago, JulianB said:

So we threw the boat up on it's side today, and did a whole day, just tabbing in frames, centrecases, and keelson's along with Kingplanks.

image.thumb.png.8c3d74f5796820eaad01d2299abc1c1d.png

Kingplank sitting ontop of the keelson and the X Frames.

image.thumb.png.7f6a96b116a5c11c1079b102f4ab533e.png

Alex hard at it, by the time we finished there was approx 3mm of basalt on all 6 surfaces, so

Aft Keelson, aft face of aft XFrame, fwd face of aft XFrame, mid keelson, Aft face Fwd XFrame, and Fwd face of Fed XFrame, everything got "tabbed" in, load areas with Basalt, non load areas with glass.

Then we flipped the boat and did it all again on the other side.

We left quickly but I will take some after shots tomorrow!

image.thumb.png.552f0bd0a25adb69981046fabdaa7eed.png

Just through I would share this with you, this is the bulkhead just infront of Alex in the picture above.

We have glued/bogged on a cap-strip, 2 x 300gm layers of Glass, we lamiante it down on the big glass table and once cured, we then strip it into 25mm wide strips, we take the peel ply off one side, bog it down onto the frame and then cove underneath so we get probably 10mm x 2 of gluing surface to the glass and then 8mm to the foam bulkhead.

Then when we are ready, after it's cured, we strip the peel ply off the other side and glue, in trhis case the breast hook down onto the strip, so we again get someting approaching 25mm of gluing joint.    Really simple blind bonding joint, it eliminates the need for "deck-ties" which are a total pain~!

Love watching your boat come together. Even better that you get to build it with your son.  A dream for my future with my two boys.

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18 hours ago, WCB said:

Love watching your boat come together. Even better that you get to build it with your son.  A dream for my future with my two boys.

Alex is a pretty cool guy, and it's great working with him.  Have to be out of here in 5 weeks, so the hammer is down.   We should be OK.

Some of the tabbing/basalting that happen yesterday, more this morning, breasthook bonding in is delayed due to lack of SS hardware so we are into the foredeck.

       jB

20220118_085056.jpg

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So breasthooks loss is the foredeck gain.

It's basically now done, but we need the same hardware as the breasthook.

Also added strength to the spinpole receiving tube, and goy the kingpost in plus more tabbing.   Pretty sure cockpit will be in mid next week.

Pick up the Winglet MDF frames Saturday so quick 2 week build on those hopefully

      jB

20220118_133339.jpg

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HI, getting a few queastions as to whats happening.

I need about 40 M6 T-Nuts, and presently in SS, they are proving very difficult to come by.    I have 50 x M8, but they will be over kill, so that is holding up putting the breasthook down, and then it will hold up putting the Fordeck and Cockpit in also, but we are still pushing ahead.

image.png.76c39c1ade8d1e38331dfc643b11009f.png

Basically can't put the pole or any of the foredeck inplace untill we get the T-Nuts.

But Chainplates are now there, as is the Kingpost, Recieving tube is in position, and being detailed,. but it can't go in until the breasthook is in, yad yad yad.

Sent Alex up to his Cussie's this weekend, about 20 of them, camping, bushfires, even guns (they all have shooters licenses and Al is Army Reserve) so some targets may get a work out.

I hope to have T-Nuts by Monday at the lateast, after that, I'm looking for alternatives, and there are plenty.

                        jB

Stanno, if you going I will be at the 18teen at 11ish tomorrow.  You can buy me that beer!

 

 

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6 hours ago, JulianB said:

 

Stanno, if you going I will be at the 18teen at 11ish tomorrow.  You can buy me that beer!

 

 

 Sorry JB - won't be there as the 9er Association didn't consult with Clubs when they added this event very late in the piece, and it clashes with our Australia Day Race Day ... there might be a couple of HHSC boats there but most of the fleet will be competing at the Club - myself included taking on the laser kids in my M14!   5th and 6th 49ers have just arrived at the Club btw... 

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3 hours ago, Stanno said:

 Sorry JB - won't be there as the 9er Association didn't consult with Clubs when they added this event very late in the piece, and it clashes with our Australia Day Race Day ... there might be a couple of HHSC boats there but most of the fleet will be competing at the Club - myself included taking on the laser kids in my M14!   5th and 6th 49ers have just arrived at the Club btw... 

Let me know a good time to visit?

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11 hours ago, JulianB said:

HI, getting a few queastions as to whats happening.

I need about 40 M6 T-Nuts, and presently in SS, they are proving very difficult to come by.    I have 50 x M8, but they will be over kill, so that is holding up putting the breasthook down, and then it will hold up putting the Fordeck and Cockpit in also, but we are still pushing ahead.

image.png.76c39c1ade8d1e38331dfc643b11009f.png

Basically can't put the pole or any of the foredeck inplace untill we get the T-Nuts.

But Chainplates are now there, as is the Kingpost, Recieving tube is in position, and being detailed,. but it can't go in until the breasthook is in, yad yad yad.

Sent Alex up to his Cussie's this weekend, about 20 of them, camping, bushfires, even guns (they all have shooters licenses and Al is Army Reserve) so some targets may get a work out.

I hope to have T-Nuts by Monday at the lateast, after that, I'm looking for alternatives, and there are plenty.

                        jB

Stanno, if you going I will be at the 18teen at 11ish tomorrow.  You can buy me that beer!

 

 

I'll order some up and send some over by DHL. ;)   https://www.mcmaster.com/tee-nuts/thread-size~m6/ 

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2 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Does basalt have any galvanic activity?

To the best of my knowledge no, it dose not.   It's primary use at present is in the manufacture of pressure vessels and water tanks and is used in preference to carbon/glass because it dose not wick, and because it has not galvanic properties so you can set and forget.

WCB, thanks, if they are not there tomorrow I will probably opt for sex-bolts or postscrews, also know as Chicago bolts, very similar attributes, slightly more complexe installation.

        jB

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Just now, JulianB said:

To the best of my knowledge no, it dose not.   It's primary use at present is in the manufacture of pressure vessels and water tanks and is used in preference to carbon/glass because it dose not wick, and because it has not galvanic properties so you can set and forget.

WCB, thanks, if they are not there tomorrow I will probably opt for sex-bolts or postscrews, also know as Chicago bolts, very similar attributes, slightly more complexe installation.

        jB

I also have some rather beautiful Ti button nuts M5.

20220116_125331.jpg

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6 hours ago, Laser9953 said:

I call this artwork....”Starboard, a tribute to Frank”

 

Laser 9953 02 74, Tasar 906 1 789C1E39CF-EDC4-4F33-9ACF-8E51E3D78A8A.thumb.jpeg.904626a2d208b271637dc94ab8776d09.jpegpicture is from the land down under.

We must have done 100,000+ maranti laser foils.  We had this thicknesser 4 face/square block, very old, but it was the only one that could do the job, cut the white metal bearings off, re set it up with self aligning needles and (Captin) Jack Godfrey, our master machines hand ground these knifes, (blades) 2 for the LE and 2 for the body of the foil.

When it was on, that machine went 18hrs a day, we used to truck the woodchips away.

The noise, and then many a med, dentist, engineer student funded there education varnishing them.

Jack would be whistling away, after school ( this was the early to mid 70's) I would spend 2-3 hours shovelling woodchips into bins and taking them outside, all the while this machine, I think we nicknamed her "moaning milly" just threw even more chips than I could remove.

It was pretty amazing, I'm guessing Jack is in the big machine shop in the sky now, an amazing "chippy".  Built Baracks in the Ole-n-Stanely ranges during the war, never meant to shoot a gun, but they where almost over run. Ended up on the Crate, and any Aussie has a tear in his eye about that.

Must have worked for us for 25 years.

Not just a legacy to Dad, but also Jack.  The old snogger!

      jB

 

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Hi guys, had Australia Day in the middle, and an Arethea Franklin concert, so few things to get out of the way but we still don't have M6 T-Nuts so I made Brass nuts.

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Alex did a video of us putting the breasthook in, so that and the side Vee-decks are now all boned in place.

Today, Alex was recovering from 2-up and too much beer, so I was on my own.    GT joined me and we did the whole fitting placment process, fordeck went on and off a few times

But Spin pole recieving tube is now bonded in place as is most of the deck structure, you can see the chainplates in the back ground, now the D2 chainplates are also in place, tomorrow, final fitting of the Fordeck, and start the final fitting of the Cockpit process, but neither will go in until next week, have to paint inside under the fordeck area, before we comit to bonding, plus we need some additional hardware to go it.

image.png.589ef0b635ad2aa234a43ac6502a5619.pngNeed to finalise the transom also

image.thumb.png.3fa3fbe6d2b3c4dad90116a87d13f4bb.png

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Another big day, had Alex back, for-deck went on and off maybe 6 times, with Al and I sliding up underneath on the breast-hook marking high spots, back off, grind them down, and then refit.    It's now perfect (fit), so Al and I did all those final tabbing/glassing/basalt jobs, and brought some hi-build undercoat/primer.   That may go on Sunday (sailing 6Pac tomorrow), possibly bonding the deck Tuesday, cock-pit Thursday and flip the boat upside down and de-jig it before the weekend.  

image.thumb.png.387bc224bba64491015e1b0269f5ac52.png

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5 hours ago, chris foiler said:

Really enjoying your build.Who are you getting  to build your mast .I need a nearly similar mast for my 7.5 m foiling trailer sailer .Cheers Chris 

Bit of a quandary.     I come from a aeronautical background, when you go gliding, you polish your wings right up to the point of launch, the RN's (Reynolds numbers) are in the same ball park as this boat will be, sure the cord is bigger but the AWS is less, yet we are happy with tree-trunk masts and seamed sails, so who is right and who is wrong.

I have two options,   #1 is a CST mast, probably 80mm OD, 3-3.5mm WT, hi-modulus Carbon.  Then #2 is a David Lambourn mast, which is Oval, 120 x 76, probably 2.3-2.8mm WT bladder moulded.

Both have smallish LE radii, both are similar weights, the Oval can't be broken for transport but could easily be a simpler solution.      The round mast is a fair bit more manipulative-able.

Your foiling boat is likely to have higher AWS, so your probably better off opting for the Oval option.

                jB

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59 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Where did those T nuts end up?

They did not arrive, so I am taking a different route!

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1 hour ago, Jethrow said:

Ummm, what's a breast hook? I'm scared to google it... ;)

 

Structural member, a house carpenter would call it an angle brace. In boats, when it's horizontal (such as at the bow or where the transom meets the gunwhale) it's a breast hook, when it's vertical it's a knee.

https://ptwatercraft.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DSC01297-1024x768.jpg

Everybody likes nice breasts

- DSK

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4 hours ago, JulianB said:

Bit of a quandary.     I come from a aeronautical background, when you go gliding, you polish your wings right up to the point of launch, the RN's (Reynolds numbers) are in the same ball park as this boat will be, sure the cord is bigger but the AWS is less, yet we are happy with tree-trunk masts and seamed sails, so who is right and who is wrong.

I have two options,   #1 is a CST mast, probably 80mm OD, 3-3.5mm WT, hi-modulus Carbon.  Then #2 is a David Lambourn mast, which is Oval, 120 x 76, probably 2.3-2.8mm WT bladder moulded.

Both have smallish LE radii, both are similar weights, the Oval can't be broken for transport but could easily be a simpler solution.      The round mast is a fair bit more manipulative-able.

Your foiling boat is likely to have higher AWS, so your probably better off opting for the Oval option.

                jB

Rotating wing mast.....you know you want the challenge

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On 1/18/2022 at 5:19 PM, JulianB said:

image.png.3254741dc850af6aa9c315dfcbd80a33.png

Winglet MDF frames, I get them tonight, last stage in the hull build

 

How do the  winglets attach or demount for the trailering?

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

In most cases, no.

 

I dunno an Mpa from a pokemon but I worry about soft metal in tension with fewer than 10 turns of threads engaged. I like to learn from being very wrong online because those lessons stick better.

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2 hours ago, kprice said:

How do the  winglets attach or demount for the trailering?

3 along the top edge, and 2 at the bottom, per side, those are M6 bolt holes.   There will also M8' front and back to pin it down.

IMG-20211224-WA0008.jpg

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3 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

 

I dunno an Mpa from a pokemon but I worry about soft metal in tension with fewer than 10 turns of threads engaged. I like to learn from being very wrong online because those lessons stick better.

There are 3,000+ Tasar's out there 3/4's of them have shrouds (M2.5 so 700kgs BS) that are attached to a brass slide in a SS C section track via 2 x 3/16" (M4.7) BSW bolts, that bit of brass is at best 4mm thick. I have never known them to fail even after 40 years of use. And there are 700+ B14's out there, 1/2 of them use the same slider with M3 wire (1000kgs) on their f/stay.    I think I will be just fine.     jB

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46 minutes ago, JulianB said:

There are 3,000+ Tasar's out there 3/4's of them have shrouds (M2.5 so 700kgs BS) that are attached to a brass slide in a SS C section track via 2 x 3/16" (M4.7) BSW bolts, that bit of brass is at best 4mm thick. I have never known them to fail even after 40 years of use. And there are 700+ B14's out there, 1/2 of them use the same slider with M3 wire (1000kgs) on their f/stay.    I think I will be just fine.     jB

Not so Julian, I had one of the bolts strip on the 44 year old girl of mine. Admittedly not while in service and as a result of corrosion. Occurred while I was going over boat “checking “ integrity of fittings and retensioning the set screws.

Can you use your contacts with Tasar to get me a set of the new tangled roller car shroud adjusters for long term testing?

cheers Frant

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6 minutes ago, Laser9953 said:

Not so Julian, I had one of the bolts strip on the 44 year old girl of mine. Admittedly not while in service and as a result of corrosion. Occurred while I was going over boat “checking “ integrity of fittings and retensioning the set screws.

Can you use your contacts with Tasar to get me a set of the new tangled roller car shroud adjusters for long term testing?

cheers Frant

I will be 6ft under in 44 years time, so I think I will let that one go through to the keeper!

Go talk to Alister (ex Ronstan) he may be able to get you a long term payment plan, but he is older than me, so maybe you can get 20 years out of him!

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Thanks most useful but I doubt that my AoA will be any narrower than yours  as I am only t foil stabilized uphill .I did wing masts on Dragon and Timber wolf  tris but prefer a fixed mast for this application just difficult to get in Canada unlike NZ or Australia .

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9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

Structural member, a house carpenter would call it an angle brace. In boats, when it's horizontal (such as at the bow or where the transom meets the gunwhale) it's a breast hook, when it's vertical it's a knee.

https://ptwatercraft.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DSC01297-1024x768.jpg

Everybody likes nice breasts

- DSK

Steamflyer, Ta, Bitter, Muchly, perfcet answer, it's the horizontal frame, gusset, deck that runs between the chines, mostly fwd of the X Frame.

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I am not having too much luck with my new for old 50th anniversary or similar campaigns. Actually put it to Chris C that they should provide a brand new 50th anniversary laser to the best authentic vintage laser rig. Thought I’d be an easy winner with 9953 on top of the split screen Kombi. At the VLA  celebration one of fellow old timers had repurchased his original laser. An 8800 series boat 12 months earlier than mine!

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2 minutes ago, chris foiler said:

Thanks most useful but I doubt that my AoA will be any narrower than yours  as I am only t foil stabilized uphill .I did wing masts on Dragon and Timber wolf  tris but prefer a fixed mast for this application just difficult to get in Canada unlike NZ or Australia .

Now you are opening Pandor's box.

Tasar, most cats, wing masts, to coin a thunderbirds line are all the GO!

18teens, moths, they are not worth the trouble.

Got to go sailing on 6Pac, perfect day here today, so I may come back to it, but I think the tipping point is kgs/m² (call it loading) in the sails.

If you have a loading which is above X then you need a wing mast or a over rotating mast.    If you are below X then you are better off opting for minimum weight and simplicity.

Also if you have extra's in this case spinnakers, then that dramatically drops you loading so wings become less attractive again.

Back in quite a few hours, it’s a harbour race, Stanno, I will wave as I go past!

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5 hours ago, Laser9953 said:

I am not having too much luck with my new for old 50th anniversary or similar campaigns. Actually put it to Chris C that they should provide a brand new 50th anniversary laser to the best authentic vintage laser rig. Thought I’d be an easy winner with 9953 on top of the split screen Kombi. At the VLA  celebration one of fellow old timers had repurchased his original laser. An 8800 series boat 12 months earlier than mine!

Dang. 50 years. I have 8783 hanging in my garage.

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19 hours ago, JulianB said:

3 along the top edge, and 2 at the bottom, per side, those are M6 bolt holes.   There will also M8' front and back to pin it down.

IMG-20211224-WA0008.jpg

Stupid question time 

How do you fit 5 pieces to the wing and 5 to the hull and have them all line up perfectly when you put the wing on?

What's the build trick?

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I am curious about that too! My gut feeling would be to externally rig the two parts together and mark two matching points at the front and back before taking everything apart.

Then draw a line through the points that should line up, and measure very, very accurately before drilling.

How is it actually done?

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10 minutes ago, allweather said:

I am curious about that too! My gut feeling would be to externally rig the two parts together and mark two matching points at the front and back before taking everything apart.

Then draw a line through the points that should line up, and measure very, very accurately before drilling.

How is it actually done?

Very shortly we will bolt at the Vee bits onto the hull, with the 2 prongs facing upwards, they will also be recessed into the outer verticals slabs so that they are flush.    Interestingly we will simple use penny washers and wingnuts on the inside, then just bog and glass over the wingnuts, they never move, in/out 100 times without issue.

Then when the winglets are done, they get offered up to the hull a few time to make them right and get the frames in the right place, yad yad yad, then you use foam backed doble sided tape, and you cover just the inside of the triangle, drop them into the Vee's, and you then again very carefully offer the winglet up to the hull coming in horizontally.    By this stage you probably have the M8 "pins" front and back, and no question you exploit those, over length bolts, yad yad, to make sure this process happens in a very controlled manner.   Once there you leave it for say 5 mins to make sure the double-sided tape really grabs then you remove the pins and lift the winglet vertically.    Once removed, you drill and tap into pre-paced Brass blocks and squeeze the foam.    That may require some fiddling as in tensions of bolts to get it right!

The good foams that do this, the one I will probably use is a 3M product call VHB Foam tape.    I have enough here from a previous project to make this happen, but it's available at the local hardware and is about 2mm thick.

It's pretty idiot proof, which is important for an idiot like me!

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Talk about straight forward, use tape! Brilliant.

Did I get that right that you'll leave the VHB tape in after you drilled the holes? (Acts as adjustable spacers? since you're talking about squeezing and getting tension right)

 

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5 hours ago, allweather said:

Talk about straight forward, use tape! Brilliant.

Did I get that right that you'll leave the VHB tape in after you drilled the holes? (Acts as adjustable spacers? since you're talking about squeezing and getting tension right)

 

There are foam tapes and there are foam tapes, we used the 3M stuff (to stick sail track on) because it was available worldwide and because it worked 95% of the time.    We reverted back to Plexus, BTW because of that 5% (and use MA 420, if you do, don't use 425).

But in this application, leave it there under pressure for 5mins so it gets a good bond, then yes, leave the foam tape there, once you remove the winglets and use say a M2 drill as a centre when you drill down into the brass, then go to the M5 and then tap, just be careful and you will be fine.

Re tweaking the tensions, you can do thing like use indigo-blue or carbon-paper just like the dentist do to adjust the tensions in the bolts to get the fit near perfect.    Reality is the laminate will move and you will soon work out which is taking the load and which is not.

Few have asked where I get this stuff from.   Reality is I have tried and tried to get short runs down in Australia via the web or whatever.    There is this guy in HK call Sean Lam, whom I probably first meat in 1990 sailing B14's, he was probably responsible for you Apple phone case and dose all that Thule roof rack stuff.   He is very much HKongeese, speaks Cantonese (mother lounge) and Mandarin fluently but he also speaks technical English near word perfect (better then me) and is fluent with Rhino/3D/AutoCad.    He is presently in Vancouver.

So he may get the bits made in HK or Taiwan or China or Vietnam or where ever in Asia.

Short runs in Asian are called “Samples” and are done in “sample rooms” they are often double a “Run” rate in price but what I draw is what I get, if I want Ti, I get Ti, if I want 316, I get 316, if I want hi-end POM (Acetyle) I get hi-end POM, and between him translating and his expertise I get some great stuff.    Just got a package this morning (Sunday) DHL,  under 10 days from dwg to HK/Canada to sitting on my door step.

Highly recomend him to anyone!

 

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Such orders are so far beyond me(or my wallet currently), but good to know...

Thanks for the name drop on MA420. I had a bit of unmarked left over that by now went bad for fixing mast track on my 49er in case I break something...
Also, the explanation makes sense in general, so thank you again.

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On 1/29/2022 at 9:41 AM, JulianB said:

Now you are opening Pandor's box.

 

Tasar, most cats, wing masts, to coin a thunderbirds line are all the GO!

 

18teens, moths, they are not worth the trouble.

 

Got to go sailing on 6Pac, perfect day here today, so I may come back to it, but I think the tipping point is kgs/m² (call it loading) in the sails.

 

If you have a loading which is above X then you need a wing mast or a over rotating mast.    If you are below X then you are better off opting for minimum weight and simplicity.

 

Also if you have extra's in this case spinnakers, then that dramatically drops you loading so wings become less attractive again.

 

Back in quite a few hours, it’s a harbour race, Stanno, I will wave as I go past!

 

Back to Pandora’s box, and yes had a fabulous time yesterday, truly wreck last night, lucky the bride was at a baby shower 2 hrs north, I had the house to myself so no one heard the snoring!

We blew the hydraulic mast ram, so we only had 750 PSI, we needed 2000 PSI, so the lowers and D2 where all but useless, and it was a 3 hrs race around all the islands in the harbour, all the way up to Spectacle and back.    Not so flash up-hill with no rig tension in 12-15knts so 3rd (out of 15) at the top mark (Beashal Buoy) but almost hit the lead by Shark Island (under kite),  and by Pinchgut we were well ahead, certainly saw lots of 12-13-14knts on the way down to Spectacle under kite, my toy told me max speed was 17.1knts and in a crowded water way, that’s interesting.

Stanno, I did wave as we passed HH, but no beer!

Lost a bit uphill on the way home under the coat-hanger again, with no rig tension, but we hung on for a win against a Melges 32 (2nd) and Tasty (Hick 30, and the gun boat)    6Pac is a Thompson 8 BTW (26 ½ ft).    So happy but tired.

Pandora’s box.    I am going to use a Tasar and a 49er because the number are so well known, and the use of the different masts are also well understood.    Again, go to 9eronline and you get all the tech details of a 49er.

So loading on a 49er, done this before but just to be sure, to be sure

RM = torque/arm   Torque = 165kgs x disp from CL = (½ x 3.2m (beam)) + 1m (toe to CoG crew) so 1.6+1 = 2.6 x 165 = 429kgs/m torque / 4.378m (arm) = 97kgs RM.

Loading = SA (sail area) / RM therefore 49er sail area = 21.91m²/97kgs RM = 225gms/m². (upwind)

Downwind to 21.91m² of working sails you add 31m² of spinnaker, so you have 53m², you discount that to say 80% because the jib aint doing that much in the down wash of the spin, so say 42, which is double the upwind, so you just ½ ved your loading, say 110gms/m²

Tasar, loading, a Tasar is 6ft wide, 1.8m same sum as 49er to get torque,

½ x 1.8 + .2 = 1.1 x crew weight (140kgs) so 154kgs/m.    RM = 154/3.2 (arm) = 48.12kgs/m.

Sail area is 11.8m² / 48.12kgs/m = 245gms/m² loading.

And that is about exactly what I would expect, for a boat that can plane upwind, the numbers should be pretty similar, and 225 vs 245 you are definitely in the same Ball Park!

Turn the corner and it’s a different world.

In other places on this site, the advantages of a over rotating rig vs a conventional rig have been waxed lyrical.

From personal experience I know that the Tasar mast lights the boat up as soon as you crack sheets, even 10°, and running square(ish) if you can get the upper leach to go fwd and unstalls the upper main, that flows all the way down to the boom and you can mostly stay with the gusts down-hill.

Where as the 49er, pop the spinnaker and the loading ½ ves, you simply don’t need to turn the wind across the working sails anymore because you have this massive increase in sailarea.

When I sailed Tri’s, and these where middle of the range tri’s (10m) windward-leeward course, sometime passage races, we had a fixed oval mast, and we won far far more than our fair share of races.   We would often be doing 17knts uphill (no foils), turn the corner, pop the spinnaker there was just no need to increase the amount of wind turned by the working sails, infact you dropped the jib 90% of the time.

Boats when you crack sheets, (and don’t set extra’s) so your vector goes from say 80° to CL to say 65° to CL then obviously sideload drops, forward vector increases, (drag goes up) so you can stand more vector, (side load) and a rotating mast then comes into it’s own.

Just to add to that, I was at Norths Tuesday AM re 49er sails, after a bit, got into pet hates, and mine is ropes come out of the mast, or parked at max airflow all for 10secs gain, (setting a spin) but huge loss for 75% of the time (going upwind),   Alby pulled up on his computer some work Norths had done on that.   A 3mm bit of cord, back say 25% from the LE of the mast probably increase the “bubble” 25%.   A 12mm rope increase the bubble well over 50%.

Bubble = drag and lots of it!

Your better off clipping your halyards a) behind you mast or b) out at the chainplates, and the worst place to put them is down the LE.

 

 

 

.

 

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Interesting theoretical basis to what we noted in 1988/9 with 8.5 m tri dragon first incarnation faster with Wang computers big rig  fixed spunspar  upwind and with kites on compared with Francespar 175 c  which was probably slightly better 2 sail reaching .Sail development was not very sophisticated lack of money !!!. Concur re halyards down front of mast  just a pest tucking them behind spreaders next to main luff rope .

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Did you or your Dad have any correspondence with Alex Strojnik low power laminar aircraft structures,design and technologies or Bruce Carmichael  personal aircraft drag reduction . I found their booklets useful and  appropriate Reynolds’s numbers for sailboats and moth hydrofoils .

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59 minutes ago, chris foiler said:

Did you or your Dad have any correspondence with Alex Strojnik low power laminar aircraft structures,design and technologies or Bruce Carmichael  personal aircraft drag reduction . I found their booklets useful and  appropriate Reynolds’s numbers for sailboats and moth hydrofoils .

Can't say I remember the name. Most of Dad's contacts where via military and research facilities.

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On 1/29/2022 at 9:41 AM, JulianB said:

Got to go sailing on 6Pac, perfect day here today…

Nice, that was a fun race and you guys looked fast! I had the pleasure of being on Balmain Tiger. Great day out.

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9 hours ago, atnan said:

Nice, that was a fun race and you guys looked fast! I had the pleasure of being on Balmain Tiger. Great day out.

It was a fun day, digging the hydralics off to get them fixed anit going to be fun, oil and water don't mix, but it would be nice to have some tension in the rig!

 

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

It was a fun day, digging the hydralics off to get them fixed anit going to be fun, oil and water don't mix, but it would be nice to have some tension in the rig!

 

Ah its not too bad... all the Magic 25's have the same thing which is designed for regular service. The through deck bolts come out, then all the protrusions like the gauge and pump lever screw off or have pins that can be knocked out then slide the whole thing up and out. Take it to Trevor from fleet-hydrol and let him do his thing, then back in it goes and top off with some fluid that will have invariably leaked out as you screwed everything back in place. Then when its all working brilliantly why not try 2500psi for added stiffness.

 

 

 

 

T8_1.jpg

T8_2.JPG

T8_3.JPG

T8_4.jpg

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Biggish day,

Got the 1st fitting on the boat, pole extension turning block.1323152273_1stfittingontheboat.thumb.jpeg.8b7568376e9c884555087144ff2c1517.jpeg

It's a Allen A4296, held with 2 x M5 tapped into some brass.   Big thing about these is spray a hose up there occasionally and the water get through everything, and clean them, it's highly unlikely to ever be replaced, not even going to put an inspection port there, you can reach it!

then

Chainplates.thumb.jpg.e784ee6a71e2f97664188dcf37774b50.jpg

Finalised the Chainplates, they may seem hi, but there is 14mm of deck ontop, so infact the D1 will be "trencehed".

1702108062_Paintingthebreasthook.thumb.jpg.711f2a2f15522980464900c8f6094d0b.jpg

And Alex applied the first coat of primer tp the breasthook and up the sides "the wet areas", the 5 old farts did not want paint (weight), but I over ruled them atleast the wet spaces,

We also did all the M8 T-nuts (I did get them) in the cockpit, so foredeck will porobably go on Thursday, cokpit, possibly the same day, 3 week till I am on a plane to you UK/Italy (got my ticket today).

I need a Negronie with may mate Paolo!

Also ordered the pole bearing, I can have them in 2 weeks (it's slow because of CNY) but I have asked for them April 1st.   Made in POM.

1915686436_Polebearings.thumb.jpg.faf7f6a129681ed2aa113018a08716e5.jpg

Ciao, jB

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Oh and heres the pic I was trying to find for GT yesterday... I swear this fractional chute was a good bit quicker than any masthead in big breeze. Still hit this 19 knot terminal velolcity wall... just gets there with less stress.

1487293_10151887325053722_761633575_n.jpg

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6 minutes ago, frayedsheet said:

Ah its not too bad... all the Magic 25's have the same thing which is designed for regular service. The through deck bolts come out, then all the protrusions like the gauge and pump lever screw off or have pins that can be knocked out then slide the whole thing up and out. Take it to Trevor from fleet-hydrol and let him do his thing, then back in it goes and top off with some fluid that will have invariably leaked out as you screwed everything back in place. Then when its all working brilliantly why not try 2500psi for added stiffness.

 

 

 

 

T8_1.jpg

T8_2.JPG

T8_3.JPG

T8_4.jpg

It's probably the same ram, it looks the same and I sailed Magic's in HK.

Seriously, a screw jack would be simpler and lighter and more reliable.

Turnbuckles and a "boat-bender" are looking fabulous!

                        jB

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It's all happening,   just got this!

2059923962_foilmoulds.jpeg.829df0dd53d4e4eb0ff933cf7b36adb4.jpeg

Foil moulds, they are female, made 300mm over lenght, "so I can play".

Rudder moulds before the end of the week!     My mate Ian Dixon, saved me so much time it's quite austounding!

                             jB

      

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On 1/16/2022 at 9:57 PM, WCB said:

Love watching your boat come together. Even better that you get to build it with your son.  A dream for my future with my two boys.

My dad, brother and I did a couple of carvel planked boats together- I still think back on it, after 50+ years with great fondness.  However, my dad and his dad built one together, and hated it, my grandad being a gruff, overbearing ship’s captain.  My dad’s strategy was if he started, we might come.  And we did.  Slow but fun.  

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

My dad, brother and I did a couple of carvel planked boats together- I still think back on it, after 50+ years with great fondness.  However, my dad and his dad built one together, and hated it, my grandad being a gruff, overbearing ship’s captain.  My dad’s strategy was if he started, we might come.  And we did.  Slow but fun.  

My boys are both young, 9 and 4yo, but the 4yo loves tools (mine, not the junior set that are real he was given for xmas last year). They love playing in the boats that I bring home frequently. I imagine that it's only a matter of time before I can get a project in with them in tow. 

I use the "Field of Dreams" quote a lot, especially in reference to Park City Sailing which I started very much like that and it's a thriving community sailing program now.

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25 minutes ago, WCB said:

My boys are both young, 9 and 4yo, but the 4yo loves tools (mine, not the junior set that are real he was given for xmas last year). They love playing in the boats that I bring home frequently. I imagine that it's only a matter of time before I can get a project in with them in tow. 

I use the "Field of Dreams" quote a lot, especially in reference to Park City Sailing which I started very much like that and it's a thriving community sailing program now.

Answering both of you at once, I was asked what this was costing me, and both Deidre and I consider the opportunity to work with Alex is priceless.

I will do a costing in a few months, but my guess is Alex and rent are the biggest ticket items.

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Just now, JulianB said:

Answering both of you at once, I was asked what this was costing me, and both Deidre and I consider the opportunity to work with Alex is priceless.

I will do a costing in a few months, but my guess is Alex and rent are the biggest ticket items.

Priceless for sure...who cares what the final tally is.

@Amati my father wasn't as bad as your grandfather but he wasn't around much, left the home when my twin brother and I were seven. There were no projects in the boat barn out behind our house when we were old enough, at least his boat projects, eventually our boats took over out there, but it would have been a good bonding experience with our father but we never got one of those with him. 

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9 hours ago, allweather said:

How are these ones made, cut from tooling board and then finished? Looks awesome coming in like that.

They are made from medium density tooling board, my guess is its 30mm thick.

If you look closely, you can see some LVL's underneath.   It's all boxed up prior to milling.

I will radius the edges and apply probably 2 layers of epoxy to the flange and the vertical edges so I can get a vacuum during the build process.

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1 minute ago, WCB said:

Priceless for sure...who cares what the final tally is.

@Amati my father wasn't as bad as your grandfather but he wasn't around much, left the home when my twin brother and I were seven. There were no projects in the boat barn out behind our house when we were old enough, at least his boat projects, eventually our boats took over out there, but it would have been a good bonding experience with our father but we never got one of those with him. 

Diving up there now.  I won't miss the drive.  Probably buring $100 of diesel a week and wasting 10-15 hours travelling.

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2 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Diving up there now.  I won't miss the drive.  Probably buring $100 of diesel a week and wasting 10-15 hours travelling.

True, those types of expenses in fuel and time to travel are no fun, unless Alex is in the car with you.

How long of a drive do you have to do?

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16 minutes ago, WCB said:

True, those types of expenses in fuel and time to travel are no fun, unless Alex is in the car with you.

How long of a drive do you have to do?

Alex is driving which is why I can text.    It's an hour drive each way.

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

Alex is driving which is why I can text.    It's an hour drive each way.

Well shoot, Julian, that’s not long enough that the obvious conversation gets old, and the good stuff gets a good chew. ^_^
 

Either that or musical taste gets swapped….:lol:

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

Alex is driving which is why I can text.    It's an hour drive each way.

I can see that...good motivation to get lots done when you're there.  My wife gives me crap for driving 18 minutes to the waterfront, though I do it a lot.

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Through I took photos, but I can't find them.

Foredeck is bonded on, cockpit will get the full frame detail tomorrow with the intention of bonding Thursday.

Poop deck (sloping transom) will happen Friday, my have a boat, out of the jig on Monday.

Then Winglets.

                  jB

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Cockpit bonding, today.

Tomorrow, de jig it and some serious angle grinding.

Need to arrange the rudder frame, and then the slopping transom.

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Seeing the rather laborious process of applying the glue, what is your stance on cartridge adhesives like West System's six10 or similar?

Aside from availability issues... just ordered one to fill drilled out cracks in a hull and got told I can expect one cartridge in a month... May just do it with epoxy filler and putty knife after all.

Also, you are wearing respirators with filters for fumes?

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

Seeing the rather laborious process of applying the glue, what is your stance on cartridge adhesives like West System's six10 or similar?

Aside from availability issues... just ordered one to fill drilled out cracks in a hull and got told I can expect one cartridge in a month... May just do it with epoxy filler and putty knife after all.

Also, you are wearing respirators with filters for fumes?

The problem with those 1:1 mix tips on the cartridges is waste of product, and then consumables (throwing away the tips). I don’t want to speak for Julian on this one — but there is an intention towards eco-friendliness in this project. Also, the cost on those cartridges/tips can add up when you are using them on an industrial scale. I can’t make out the filters on the masks, but if they are mixing in their own fillers into epoxy, I definitely would be wearing a respirator. 
 

@JulianB Is there any plan for the aux power? Part of me was hoping to see a RS21 style torqueedo mounted inboard with the hull flaps… but I’m fully aware weight is a big driver on this one.

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Had not considered the part about wasted tips. Price... that makes sense. I only wanted it because I need to get it into the crack somehow, and messing with filler will mean lots of clean up at my skill level. Moot point on account on delivery times.

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We both where hi-end respirators when we are mixing the paste, so we don't ingest the Aero-cell or Q-cell.

But there is always a fan in the background making sure there is a good supply of fresh air.

Temp yesterday was around 21C, so we had a bit of time.

And when we are applying the paste, we tend to not bother as the level of fumes is mild.    When we go into confined spaces, yep, we mask up, 1000%.    I am suffering a mild dose of epoxy fumes sensitivity at the moment, not dermatitis, (amine sensitivity on the skin) but we go through disposable gloves even though we average 3 uses from a single pair.

Re pre-mixed system, like WEST, nothing wrong with west but I am using Boatex.   I like to keep that chemicals similar, we do have icing bags, but by the time you have mixed it, another 10mins getting it into a bag only to extrude it again seems a bit pointless.   Plus you have to spread it out with a knife anyway, so we just do it!

We do/did use icing bags when coving 49ers and 29ers and that works really well.

                          jB

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Alright then, I have never tried icing bag, but maybe I should... going to have to test my filler for consistency.

Thanks for elaborating on that part, and the filters. I react quite strongly as I learned over the last year and now always mask up.(basically always closed rooms) The 3M full mask, vapor and particle filters helped a lot compared to some of the cheaper variants. Wished I sprung for that earlier.

 

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Strange, I did answer this and it’s disappeared.

Std bog or slurry,

1:1 of Q-cell and Aero-cell.

In 400gms of mixed epoxy, 1 expresso cup of each to get slurry, 2 cups of each to get bog.

If you want a sanding bog (as-opposed to a filling bog) you add talcum powered / white chalk.

If you want a glue, to say bond the 2 ½ ves of 49er together, then 1 part Flock, 2 parts Aero-cell and 3 parts Q-cell.

Q-cell is also know as qcel or micro ballons

Aero-cell is also known as Carbosil but it glass shards.

Flock used to be asbestos but these days it’s milled cotton fibre.

If your using Polyester you put a lot more additives into it, as it’s thinner, but similar ratios.

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Julian, 

how do you determine whether you need a flange or tabbing on the bulkheads and stringers. It didnt look like there any in the videos

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6 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Julian, 

how do you determine whether you need a flange or tabbing on the bulkheads and stringers. It didnt look like there any in the videos

Blind bond, you flange.

Otherwise you tab.

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Someone asked about auxiliary power.

Australian Cat 5/ISO require 2 hrs running time, minimum of 3hp, must be carried on the back all the time.

So I have a 3.3hp 2-stroke outboard, thick it’s a Mercury, and we will carry 5lts of fuel in addition to the top-tank.

We had a Torquedo, but they are a) heavy and b) not a very long run time, so you would have to carry extra batteries and that = even more weight.

We sold the Torquedo very easily, it’s a great motor to get you out into the race area, but as a Cat 5/ISO motor it’s not really in the hunt!

Get caught out at Double Cone with 3 knts of tide, you need some long term grunt!

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2 hours ago, Will1073 said:

Thanks for that re: aux power!

So just a motor mount on the back?

More than likely.   Have not finalised that yet, got the motor.

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On 2/4/2022 at 3:53 PM, JulianB said:

Transom happening

IMG-20220204-WA0009.jpeg

Hey...it looks like it's on a trailer, am I seeing things?

 

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5 minutes ago, WCB said:

Hey...it looks like it's on a trailer, am I seeing things?

 

Yep it's on it's trailer in it receiving jib.  The really big advantage is it now movable.

It will get fliped on Monday or Tuesday and we will make trailer bulkheads and remove the recieving jig then.

Plus we will weigh it!

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