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21 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Early reports are he died of Covid 19.

Complication thereof, he had a number of fairly serious health problems. Report I just saw said that he and his family are fully vaccinated.

He was a great man, sad to note his passing.

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, tybee said:

his statements on the Iraq "WMD" were lies and i'll always remember him for that.

And once he knew they were lies, I think he regretted those lies for the rest of his life.....

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He's proof that intelligent, thinking people can be deceived.

R.I.P.

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i don't think he was as much deceived as he was pressured into making those speeches by Shrub and Darth Cheney even though he knew there was no conclusive evidence.  As i recall, he admitted as much some years later.  he was no hero.

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25 minutes ago, tybee said:

i don't think he was as much deceived as he was pressured into making those speeches by Shrub and Darth Cheney even though he knew there was no conclusive evidence.  As i recall, he admitted as much some years later.  he was no hero.

If you want to remember that publicly, it's only fair to remember also the diplomacy he oversaw/directed and the restraint he exercised over the Bush/Cheney war machine. And his earlier career, which was exemplary.

- DSK

 

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26 minutes ago, tybee said:

i don't think he was as much deceived as he was pressured into making those speeches by Shrub and Darth Cheney even though he knew there was no conclusive evidence.  As i recall, he admitted as much some years later.  he was no hero.

Yup. His legacy is not so good. 

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1 hour ago, tybee said:

his statements on the Iraq "WMD" were lies and i'll always remember him for that.

Can’t get the downvote button to work, or I would have done so.

 

He regretted the error the rest of his life.  Was likely a reason he never ran for POTUS.  That intelligence error was rather expensive.

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12 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Died of COVID complications due to his compromised immune system as he battled………multiple myeloma. 

Yah 

the Covid was insignificant 

but the media likes it 

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2 hours ago, Bugsy said:

And once he knew they were lies, I think he regretted those lies for the rest of his life.....

Saw him speak once. Incredible speaker, and he did state that he regretted it. Was he fooled by Darth Vader? or a willing participant? 

No way to know.

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11 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Yah 

the Covid was insignificant 

but the media likes it 

Well, we don’t know what the “complications” were but with the immune compromise any opportunistic infection - especially respiratory ones - are very likely deadly. Most people with multiple myeloma die from either scute kidney failure or respiratory infection/pneumonia. 

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11 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Well, we don’t know what the “complications” were but with the immune compromise any opportunistic infection - especially respiratory ones - are very likely deadly. Most people with multiple myeloma die from either scute kidney failure or respiratory infection/pneumonia. 

My dad died of complications , secondary infection, due to chemotherapy 

these days he would be labeled Covid 

it’s a scam 

when the history of the pandemic is written many “ follow the science types “ will look like fools 

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3 minutes ago, IStream said:

We don't need to wait that long to identify the fools.

You're right, they literally announce themselves. 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

And his earlier career, which was exemplary.

 

1 hour ago, Snore said:

He regretted the error the rest of his life.

 

Just goes to show you;  'And then you fuck one goat...'

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10 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

My dad died of complications , secondary infection, due to chemotherapy 

these days he would be labeled Covid 

it’s a scam 

when the history of the pandemic is written many “ follow the science types “ will look like fools 

I am sorry to hear about your father, but it's not a scam.

People who tell you it is, are trying to sucker you into supporting them for foolish and destructive ends.

- DSK

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2 hours ago, tybee said:

i don't think he was as much deceived as he was pressured into making those speeches by Shrub and Darth Cheney even though he knew there was no conclusive evidence.  As i recall, he admitted as much some years later.  he was no hero.

A single instance of taking one for the team does not erase an entire life's work.

If his wife had let him run for POTUS the world might be a very different place.

I would have voted for him (theoretically)

RIP.

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3 hours ago, Bugsy said:

And once he knew they were lies, I think he regretted those lies for the rest of his life.....

He admitted them and regretted them, which is more than today’s bullshitters will ever do. He predicted that the episode would occupy a prominent paragraph in his obituary. It should, as it should for those who tell the story of his death without context of his complications or age. While he had the honor to admit his errors, I wonder if they will admit theirs. 
 

A voice of moderation who put his country before his party. “One nation and one people.”  His example will be sorely missed. 

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

A single instance of taking one for the team does not erase an entire life's work.

If his wife had let him run for POTUS the world might be a very different place.

I would have voted for him (theoretically)

RIP.

 Colin Powell deserves respect  

I lifelong public servant who took his job seriously 

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and Benedict Arnold's entire life's work shouldn't be erased, either, right?  just that one little slip up.

all Colin has to apologize for is a lie or ten and a few hundred thousand dead iraqis and a few thousand dead U.S. troops with a few tens of thousands WIA, right?

a hero indeed.  :blink:

 

 

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44 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

A single instance of taking one for the team does not erase an entire life's work.

If his wife had let him run for POTUS the world might be a very different place.

I would have voted for him (theoretically)

RIP.

See, there are things we agree upon.

I would have voted for him theoretically as well.

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I would have voted for him (theoretically)

 

Uh oh.  Now you've done it.  The Trumpers will be screaming voter fraud again.

 

I know, take it to PA. But I'm afraid of that place.:(

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

A single instance of taking one for the team does not erase an entire life's work.

Well, there is the small side effect of that act directly contributing to the deaths of several hundred thousand people.

 

Goat shagging generally only bothers the goat.

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2 hours ago, More Cowbell2 said:

Uh oh.  Now you've done it.  The Trumpers will be screaming voter fraud again.

 

I know, take it to PA. But I'm   afraid of that place   Not THAT Fucking Stupid.;)

fi4U

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Well, there is the small side effect of that act directly contributing to the deaths of several hundred thousand people.

and let us not forget his participation in attempting to cover up My Lai

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21 minutes ago, tybee said:

and let us not forget his participation in attempting to cover up My Lai

WTF??

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1 hour ago, B.J. Porter said:

Well, there is the small side effect of that act directly contributing to the deaths of several hundred thousand people.

When you fuck up at the level of the U.N. it necessarily involves some pretty catastrophic consequences.

At the time I was surprised he didn't resign rather than do the dog & pony show at the UN - that would have fit better with his record but...

Nevertheless, I sincerely believe if it had been up to him, Iraq never would have happened.

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7 hours ago, Snore said:

Can’t get the downvote button to work, or I would have done so.

 

He regretted the error the rest of his life.  Was likely a reason he never ran for POTUS.  That intelligence error was rather expensive.

Not as much as the people of Iraq did.

But It saddened me when he took that route. A good man pushed. RIP. 

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2 hours ago, Ventucky Red said:

You forgot West Virginia, Delaware, and Maryland...  just saying..  :)

No, I said in between.  To me in between implies right-left or east-west.  The states you mentioned are south or below.  That tiny piece of WV doesn't count.

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2 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

No, I said in between.  To me in between implies right-left or east-west.  The states you mentioned are south or below.  That tiny piece of WV doesn't count.

But you mentioned New York which is mainly a northern border..  therefor one must look at the southern border as well - correct?  

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1 minute ago, Ventucky Red said:

But you mentioned New York which is mainly a northern border..  therefor one must look at the southern border as well - correct?  

Be that as it may, it isn't in between Maryland, Delaware and West Virginia.  It just isn't.  Just sayin'.

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1 minute ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ive saide thisse verrey samethinge to my frende Larrey, he hates when I saye the verrey samethinge.                             :)

TMI Snaggs, TMI.   

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2 minutes ago, Ventucky Red said:

But you mentioned New York which is mainly a northern border..  therefor one must look at the southern border as well - correct?  

Pennsylvania goes right up the western edge of New York.

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1 minute ago, Ed Lada said:
3 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

Ive saide thisse verrey samethinge to my frende Larrey, he hates when I saye the verrey samethinge.                             :)

TMI Snaggs, TMI.   

I forgotte to saye, hese frome WV             :)

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1 minute ago, Snaggletooth said:

I forgotte to saye, hese frome WV             :)

Now you're just doubling down!  :blink:

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4 minutes ago, Ed Lada said:

Be that as it may, it isn't in between Maryland, Delaware and West Virginia.  It just isn't.  Just sayin'.

But it is between New York and Maryland, Delaware and West Virginia.

You would have gotten your knuckles whacked in Sister Bernard's class with an answer like that.

Whats next, Asbury Park is the real capitol of New Jersey? :)

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

At the time I was surprised he didn't resign rather than do the dog & pony show at the UN - that would have fit better with his record but...

Nevertheless, I sincerely believe if it had been up to him, Iraq never would have happened.

I was surprised too, he was one of the credible voices in that administration, and seeing him go along with that was disturbing.

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Well.....we'll really not know how much he "went along with" versus how the intelligence was misinterpreted and the threat over perceived unless Cheney or Bush or some other highly placed intelligence or cabinet official provides more detailed and credible information. It would be VERY out of character for him to knowingly lie, especially when it comes to committing our military. I can see him taking a position he didn't fully agree with the intel based on his Commander in Chief and VP's strong feelings about it.

Anyway.......a lifetime of service. I appreciate that. I enjoyed his autobiography immensely and it really is part of the reason I cannot see him going along with and advocating military intervention based on complete lies. 

Anyway........fair winds General.

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2 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Well.....we'll really not know how much he "went along with" versus how the intelligence was misinterpreted and the threat over perceived unless Cheney or Bush or some other highly placed intelligence or cabinet official provides more detailed and credible information. It would be VERY out of character for him to knowingly lie, especially when it comes to committing our military. I can see him taking a position he didn't fully agree with the intel based on his Commander in Chief and VP's strong feelings about it.

Anyway.......a lifetime of service. I appreciate that. I enjoyed his autobiography immensely and it really is part of the reason I cannot see him going along with and advocating military intervention based on complete lies. 

Anyway........fair winds General.

We'll never really know the truth of the matter, unfortunately. I never met him personally, so I can not peak to his character beyond what was shown to us publicly.

He did give us many years of dedicated and effective service, which I appreciate.

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2 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

I don't think so.  

So if you had been a new Major, freshly arrived you would have gotten to the bottom of My Lai and exposed it?

All based on a letter from an ex-GI?

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2 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I was surprised too, he was one of the credible voices in that administration, and seeing him go along with that was disturbing.

In my experience, this is how things work when management wants to push an unpopular plan.  They get a trusted person that most in the company respect and put him/her in the awkward position of pushing management's dumb, self serving plan. If the credible person backs out, they've eliminated a solid competitor to the throne. If credible person sells the plan to masses, management has their fall guy when it blows up. The worst that happens to management is that they say "even credible guy thought it was a good plan". Typically after they've already profited. It sucks to be in that position and made worse when you have loyalties and reverence for the chain of command. Your career is in jeopardy regardless of what you choose. The very slight chance that management's dumb self serving plan works becomes something you have to make happen.

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The Powell Doctrine, named after General Colin L. Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1989-1993).

The elements of the Doctrine are as follows:

The need for “overwhelming” force;

The need for public and Congressional support;

The need for clear objectives;

The need for a clear “exit strategy”;

AND force should only be used in the “vital national interest.”

 

Worked brilliantly in Kuwait, completely ignored in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe Powell was lied to about WofMD, but as is 'The Soldiers Way', once the decision was made to move forward with war despite his concerns he gave it his best. 

Btw I have stage 4 mm and my oncologist has assured me that if I were to contact Covid 19 my exit would be quick. Ain't no scam gentlemen, and should be regarded as the deadly threat that it is.

 

 

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1 hour ago, knot him said:

The Powell Doctrine, named after General Colin L. Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (1989-1993).

The elements of the Doctrine are as follows:

The need for “overwhelming” force;

The need for public and Congressional support;

The need for clear objectives;

The need for a clear “exit strategy”;

AND force should only be used in the “vital national interest.”

 

Worked brilliantly in Kuwait, completely ignored in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe Powell was lied to about WofMD, but as is 'The Soldiers Way', once the decision was made to move forward with war despite his concerns he gave it his best. 

Btw I have stage 4 mm and my oncologist has assured me that if I were to contact Covid 19 my exit would be quick. Ain't no scam gentlemen, and should be regarded as the deadly threat that it is.

 

 

This

Here is the real tragedy…….in his book “In Retrospect” McNamara, regarding our entry and involvement in Vietnam, outlined all of those concepts in a more complete and thorough manner. It was a seminal book in my settling the Vietnam experience. In fact…….I went alone to the followup movie “The Fog of War”……sat in the back of the theatre and wept. It was one of the true epiphanies in my life. Powell’s doctrine was a concise and direct restatement of those lessons. So sad we cannot understand it in our foreign policy. 

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8 hours ago, Ventucky Red said:

Whats next, Asbury Park is the real capitol of New Jersey?

Damned right it is.

Everybody knows that.  The governor resides in the Johnny Cash suite at the former Berkley Carteret Hotel.

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6 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

So if you had been a new Major, freshly arrived you would have gotten to the bottom of My Lai and exposed it?

All based on a letter from an ex-GI?

Yes.  

It's funny that it took the efforts of a brave warrant officer and two lower enlisted soldiers to bring the horrors of My Lai to light.  

You can make any excuse you like but in my opinion Powell took the path of least resistance.  In my opinion the most telling and damning thing that he said about it was this; "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal Division soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."  Powell wasn't stupid, writing such a rosy, glowing statement about the Americal division was pure bullshit, and to me was an early indication of how Powell viewed his path to success.  Read up on the less than glorious reputation of the Americal division in Vietnam, it was a hastily thrown together unit with many problems.  

Most importantly to me is that that incident shows at an early stage in Powell's career that he was willing to set aside his morals an values for whatever reason.  He was recognized early as a potential superstar and he climbed the ladder quickly.  As an Army vet, I had a lot of respect for him but I was troubled by certain aspects of his behavior.  I am not condemning Powell, there is much to admire about him.  However he showed a pattern of behavior that to me was troubling. 

Of course the man was only human and many of our heroes have feet of clay.  The ancient Greek playwrights recognized this phenomenon and called it 'hubris', essential for the downfall of the tragic heroes in ancient Greek dramas.  

It is often said that we are not to speak ill of the dead.  I think we should speak truthfully of the dead.  We demand much of those that we admire and respect.  We see in them marvelous qualities that we want to believe in and emulate.  We tend to forget that even the greatest heroes are still human after all.  We don't want to recognize their inevitable human flaws, perhaps because with introspection we might have to deal with our own shortcomings.  

I think the greatest failing of human nature is the pervasive and ridiculous idea that such a thing as perfection exists.  It is the foundation for every religion and faith movement and has lead to terrible consequences throughout history.  A good way to drive someone to insanity is to give them an impossible task and convince them that it is achievable with enough effort and work.  Instead of recognizing our limits and our failures, we persist in striving to achieve the impossible.  So when an individual with many great qualities appears and does great things, we praise and idolize them and give them attributes that they might not have have.  We do this to delude ourselves in the hope that we too may overcome many obstacles and we too might be great someday.  We also want to believe these people because then we have some hope in this terribly confusing frightening and difficult world we live in.

We need to reframe our philosophical worldview.  Perfection is unobtainable.  We are all flawed creatures.  We need to be honest about our behavior and realize that while we should strive to do our best, we will stumble along the way.  We should honestly own our failures, objectively analyze them and rectify them as best we can.  The problem is the higher you go, the higher the expectations are, the greater the pressure becomes to continue to be great .  When a person is widely admired and put on a pedestal, any perceived weakness or failure can cause everything to come crashing down, due to the unrealistic expectations of the adoring masses.  So the urge to minimize, rationalize and hide the failures becomes tremendous.  

Sophocles masterpiece Oedipus Rex eloquently shows how this process works.  In short, the moral of the story is "Don't believe the hype".  Oedipus knew of the dangers he faced, yet he thought he could overcome them.  At the pinnacle of his success he realized the horror of what he had done because instead of confronting his problems in an honest way, he allowed his pride become his downfall. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that Colin Powell was a brilliant man with great and powerful ideas and many important accomplishments, yet he was still a flawed human as we all are.  He made mistakes, some of them with tragic consequences.  Having served on active duty and working as a civilian for the Army, I met and worked with some very impressive leaders.  I can tell you that no individual in the military achieves a high rank without some kind of large ego.  The same applies in any occupation.  The key to real success is to know when to use the power of that ego to do great things or to get too wrapped up in the power that comes with it and give in to the baser human instinct, and use it for personal gain.  I am pretty sure that Colin Powell was fundamentally a man of high morals and values.  Yet, as any human I think there were times when he set aside those morals and values for the wrong reasons, like everybody else is capable of doing in a given situation.  . 

Every great person that has existed in the world has had their problems.  The truly great ones, Buddha, Gandhi, a few others, managed to deal with their imperfections in a way that they left a tremendous impression on the world and have become examples of what humanity can achieve.  But these examples are extremely rare.

Colin Powell achieved much in his life.  It isn't wrong to assess his success and his failures honestly, and rationally.  The assessment should be done on the basis that nobody is perfect.  Expectations should be reasonable, taking our humanity into consideration.  As time goes on, history will arrive at a reasonably objective view of Powell's greatness.  Immediately after the death of such an individual, a binary discussion often erupts with one side extolling the individual's virtues, and another side excoriating their failures.  The truth is somewhere in between, like always.

Unfortunately, in these increasingly polarized times, where we have seen some spectacular failures with terrible consequences, we are desperately seeking a hero without flaws, a person we can believe in, idolize and emulate.  We keep thinking that somebody will come along and fix all that is wrong in our world.  We continue to set ourselves up for continued failure by setting unrealistic, unobtainable goals.  We persist in thinking that we can obtain a perfect or near world instead of accepting that it will never be even close perfect and we need to learn to live and work with that.  Human nature has always been this way and I doubt it will ever change.  That is the tragic flaw of the human race. 

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12 hours ago, Ed Lada said:

Yes.  

It's funny that it took the efforts of a brave warrant officer and two lower enlisted soldiers to bring the horrors of My Lai to light.  

You can make any excuse you like but in my opinion Powell took the path of least resistance.  In my opinion the most telling and damning thing that he said about it was this; "In direct refutation of this portrayal is the fact that relations between Americal Division soldiers and the Vietnamese people are excellent."  Powell wasn't stupid, writing such a rosy, glowing statement about the Americal division was pure bullshit, and to me was an early indication of how Powell viewed his path to success.  Read up on the less than glorious reputation of the Americal division in Vietnam, it was a hastily thrown together unit with many problems.  

Most importantly to me is that that incident shows at an early stage in Powell's career that he was willing to set aside his morals an values for whatever reason.  He was recognized early as a potential superstar and he climbed the ladder quickly.  As an Army vet, I had a lot of respect for him but I was troubled by certain aspects of his behavior.  I am not condemning Powell, there is much to admire about him.  However he showed a pattern of behavior that to me was troubling. 

Of course the man was only human and many of our heroes have feet of clay.  The ancient Greek playwrights recognized this phenomenon and called it 'hubris', essential for the downfall of the tragic heroes in ancient Greek dramas.  

It is often said that we are not to speak ill of the dead.  I think we should speak truthfully of the dead.  We demand much of those that we admire and respect.  We see in them marvelous qualities that we want to believe in and emulate.  We tend to forget that even the greatest heroes are still human after all.  We don't want to recognize their inevitable human flaws, perhaps because with introspection we might have to deal with our own shortcomings.  

I think the greatest failing of human nature is the pervasive and ridiculous idea that such a thing as perfection exists.  It is the foundation for every religion and faith movement and has lead to terrible consequences throughout history.  A good way to drive someone to insanity is to give them an impossible task and convince them that it is achievable with enough effort and work.  Instead of recognizing our limits and our failures, we persist in striving to achieve the impossible.  So when an individual with many great qualities appears and does great things, we praise and idolize them and give them attributes that they might not have have.  We do this to delude ourselves in the hope that we too may overcome many obstacles and we too might be great someday.  We also want to believe these people because then we have some hope in this terribly confusing frightening and difficult world we live in.

We need to reframe our philosophical worldview.  Perfection is unobtainable.  We are all flawed creatures.  We need to be honest about our behavior and realize that while we should strive to do our best, we will stumble along the way.  We should honestly own our failures, objectively analyze them and rectify them as best we can.  The problem is the higher you go, the higher the expectations are, the greater the pressure becomes to continue to be great .  When a person is widely admired and put on a pedestal, any perceived weakness or failure can cause everything to come crashing down, due to the unrealistic expectations of the adoring masses.  So the urge to minimize, rationalize and hide the failures becomes tremendous.  

Sophocles masterpiece Oedipus Rex eloquently shows how this process works.  In short, the moral of the story is "Don't believe the hype".  Oedipus knew of the dangers he faced, yet he thought he could overcome them.  At the pinnacle of his success he realized the horror of what he had done because instead of confronting his problems in an honest way, he allowed his pride become his downfall. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with saying that Colin Powell was a brilliant man with great and powerful ideas and many important accomplishments, yet he was still a flawed human as we all are.  He made mistakes, some of them with tragic consequences.  Having served on active duty and working as a civilian for the Army, I met and worked with some very impressive leaders.  I can tell you that no individual in the military achieves a high rank without some kind of large ego.  The same applies in any occupation.  The key to real success is to know when to use the power of that ego to do great things or to get too wrapped up in the power that comes with it and give in to the baser human instinct, and use it for personal gain.  I am pretty sure that Colin Powell was fundamentally a man of high morals and values.  Yet, as any human I think there were times when he set aside those morals and values for the wrong reasons, like everybody else is capable of doing in a given situation.  . 

Every great person that has existed in the world has had their problems.  The truly great ones, Buddha, Gandhi, a few others, managed to deal with their imperfections in a way that they left a tremendous impression on the world and have become examples of what humanity can achieve.  But these examples are extremely rare.

Colin Powell achieved much in his life.  It isn't wrong to assess his success and his failures honestly, and rationally.  The assessment should be done on the basis that nobody is perfect.  Expectations should be reasonable, taking our humanity into consideration.  As time goes on, history will arrive at a reasonably objective view of Powell's greatness.  Immediately after the death of such an individual, a binary discussion often erupts with one side extolling the individual's virtues, and another side excoriating their failures.  The truth is somewhere in between, like always.

Unfortunately, in these increasingly polarized times, where we have seen some spectacular failures with terrible consequences, we are desperately seeking a hero without flaws, a person we can believe in, idolize and emulate.  We keep thinking that somebody will come along and fix all that is wrong in our world.  We continue to set ourselves up for continued failure by setting unrealistic, unobtainable goals.  We persist in thinking that we can obtain a perfect or near world instead of accepting that it will never be even close perfect and we need to learn to live and work with that.  Human nature has always been this way and I doubt it will ever change.  That is the tragic flaw of the human race. 

I'm willing to give Colin the benefit of the doubt on that report from Nam though. Fact is our COIN program to wipe out the Cong in South Vietnam got a lot of support in the peasantry, a great many of them had become rather sick and tired of being Cong bases, willing or no, and suffering the consequences. They also were victims, and the mass slaugher by the Cong in Hue was unpopular, to say the least. In fact the Cong was all but completely gone well before the North's final invasion. That couldn't have happened without a lot of ratting out from the people. His might have been an accurate assessment for what he saw at that particular time.  

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23 hours ago, Ed Lada said:That tiny piece of WV doesn't count.

Tell that to Joe Manchin, the Republican in Democrat clothing

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22 hours ago, B.J. Porter said:

I was surprised too, he was one of the credible voices in that administration, and seeing him go along with that was disturbing.

If you want to look good, hang out with ugly people.  Not hard to be seen as credible in that pack of charlatans.

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On 10/18/2021 at 12:31 PM, tybee said:

and Benedict Arnold's entire life's work shouldn't be erased, either, right?  just that one little slip up.

all Colin has to apologize for is a lie or ten and a few hundred thousand dead iraqis and a few thousand dead U.S. troops with a few tens of thousands WIA, right?

a hero indeed.  :blink:

Colin Powell was handed a bullshit briefing with downgraded imagery which was annotated.  I had access to the raw data and if ever an analyst exemplified blobology, it was what he showed.  He was properly and thoroughly FUCKED by a President and VP that had evil intentions.  Bush, because he didn't know better, Cheney because he was pure evil and wanted to make money.

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The thing that I never understood about that whole "Iraqi WMD's" situation was why anybody thought or believed they had them.

I said at the time, for two reasons, they wouldn't find any.

First, if they had them they would have used them in Kuwait - nobody loses a war that badly when they have any decisive weapons left. Burning the oil fields was an example of the desperate measures they were willing to resort to.

Second, if they actually had WMD's and/or the facilities to manufacture them then Israel would have zapped them already - they would have known about them for certain and would not have tolerated Saddam having them. They had already done it 2 decades earlier on Iraq's nuke program.

I mean - it was friggin obvious.

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The thing that I never understood about that whole "Iraqi WMD's" situation was why anybody thought or believed they had them.

I said at the time, for two reasons, they wouldn't find any.

First, if they had them they would have used them in Kuwait - nobody loses a war that badly when they have any decisive weapons left. Burning the oil fields was an example of the desperate measures they were willing to resort to.

Second, if they actually had WMD's and/or the facilities to manufacture them then Israel would have zapped them already - they would have known about them for certain and would not have tolerated Saddam having them. They had already done it 2 decades earlier on Iraq's nuke program.

I mean - it was friggin obvious.

Yep. Zackly!

And there were Americans in the mix with solid intel on Saddam's lack of WMD's, Cheney & Co. shouted them down. The thing that pissed me off was the bullshit about "we've tried diplomacy" in run-up to war. Congress should never have fallen for their warmongering crapola.

- DSK

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On 10/18/2021 at 8:29 AM, tybee said:

his statements on the Iraq "WMD" were lies and i'll always remember him for that.

If he hadn’t made those statements the American Republican Party, and America in general might have gone a very different way.     

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14 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The thing that I never understood about that whole "Iraqi WMD's" situation was why anybody thought or believed they had them.

I said at the time, for two reasons, they wouldn't find any.

First, if they had them they would have used them in Kuwait - nobody loses a war that badly when they have any decisive weapons left. Burning the oil fields was an example of the desperate measures they were willing to resort to.

Second, if they actually had WMD's and/or the facilities to manufacture them then Israel would have zapped them already - they would have known about them for certain and would not have tolerated Saddam having them. They had already done it 2 decades earlier on Iraq's nuke program.

I mean - it was friggin obvious.

 

11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yep. Zackly!

And there were Americans in the mix with solid intel on Saddam's lack of WMD's, Cheney & Co. shouted them down. The thing that pissed me off was the bullshit about "we've tried diplomacy" in run-up to war. Congress should never have fallen for their warmongering crapola.

- DSK

Congress did fail us.   Individuals that voted for war suffered no political consequences.   The public, including myself, have less blame.    That is the danger of secrecy.   We are constantly asked accept statements without evidence, due to government need to protect intelligence.   Every Drone strike, every military expenditure, every sealed indictment is based on faith.    The Vietnam generation might have known better.    Those of us born after that, and never educated in school about the Gulf of Tonkin, had less reason to suspect our government of lying to us.   

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

The thing that I never understood about that whole "Iraqi WMD's" situation was why anybody thought or believed they had them.

I said at the time, for two reasons, they wouldn't find any.

First, if they had them they would have used them in Kuwait - nobody loses a war that badly when they have any decisive weapons left. Burning the oil fields was an example of the desperate measures they were willing to resort to.

Second, if they actually had WMD's and/or the facilities to manufacture them then Israel would have zapped them already - they would have known about them for certain and would not have tolerated Saddam having them. They had already done it 2 decades earlier on Iraq's nuke program.

I mean - it was friggin obvious.

Nope. 

 Saddam was warned against using them in GW1 with an implied threat of getting nuked and/or gassed right back. We got that shit too, ya know. Lots and lots.   

He used CW extensively against Iran. And Kurds. 

 Where the BS was obvious, and utterly changed my thinking, was in the claims by the Bush administration in the run-up to GW2 that he was blocking inspectors from certain places thus we had no choice but to invade. It rattles my brain to this day to grasp why the media failed to ask why not simply say "You say we can't go there Saddam? Fine. You have 10 minutes to get you people out because it will be a smoking hole in 11."  This was mind-bendingly obvious to me, like pretending there was no way to get to the supposed AQ training area in the north east. We could have dropped an entire PIR into that faster than they could say "O shit!".  But nope, the press bought the claim there was nothing for it but invade the whole fucking country.

The BS was obvious, so very obvious. 

   

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Perhaps Shakespeare said it best.

 

To blatantly, but with credit, plagiarize Shakespeare 

 

Friends, SA’ers, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Colin, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
 
So let it be with the General. … ….
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excuse me, could someone please point the direction for the Exit Route to get out of PA

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