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2021 Sydney to Hobart


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4 minutes ago, random. said:

Pros are those without enough money to buy a boat.  It's more fun just to shaft the owner than to have others shaft you.

BTW anyone else hear the goings on on URM just before the start?  Something about "we have already fucked up the start by not using the Code Zero!" and other things.  Was that Waterhouse?  No harmony and cooperation on that one.

The soundbites from that outfit did not augur well....lots of bullshit and ego clashing....and they hadn't cleared the heads. Not a surprise that they're where they are...

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MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY This is SPORTSMANSHIP SPORTSMANSHIP SPORTSMANSHIP MAYDAY SPORTSMANSHIP Our position is untenable We are beaten, battered, holed and sinking We are abandon

A good point. After every on-deck action, at every watch change, and in any case at every hour, I as watch captain (and this was the boat's standard practice) would call "Count off". My watch members

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13 minutes ago, Couta said:

The soundbites from that outfit did not augur well....lots of bullshit and ego clashing....and they hadn't cleared the heads. Not a surprise that they're where they are...

Wasn't someone told to shut up and let her do her job? 

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8 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Corinthian is such a loose term.

Is someone who spent over $200k upgrading an S&S34 dry sailed out of the sponsors marina really Corinthian?

A little bit like, having the best amateurs money can buy.

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43 minutes ago, random. said:

BTW anyone else hear the goings on on URM just before the start?  Something about "we have already fucked up the start by not using the Code Zero!" and other things.  Was that Waterhouse?  No harmony and cooperation on that one.

Fucked up by not taking/having the zero on board for the race.

25 minutes ago, vokstar said:

Wasn't someone told to shut up and let her do her job? 

Someone was told to let the naviguesser do her job.

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32 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

Fucked up by not taking/having the zero on board for the race.

Someone was told to let the naviguesser do her job.

Funny there doesn't appear to be any female names on the crew list?

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1 minute ago, mccroc said:

Funny there doesn't appear to be any female names on the crew list?

Don't always believe the published crew lists on the website. 

The navigator on URM is Yvette Heritage, former naviguessor on the Black Sheep and current skipper on Noakes Blue 18ft Skiff

 

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Can someone please bring me up to speed in from the last 15 years… 

 

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now. Better models, better use of boat polars, better integration with the boats systems. Even starts… takes all the guess work/ fun out of the sport. 
 

Hence the advantage of modern autopilots… 

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3 minutes ago, vokstar said:

Just looking at the Launceston to Hobart tracker.. would it be a laugh if some of those boats beat in the Sydney Hobart boats? 

Also if they are racing, can the Syd Hobart boats tell them to get out of the way? 

http://yb.tl/L2H2021

And there is a "Quest" in both races! Very confusing on Marine Traffic......

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2 hours ago, random101 said:

Is a pro just someone who doesn’t have the time to invest in their own crew? 
 

Let’s face it - pros aren’t the be all and end all… it’s not a highly skilled sport (a pro tennis player vs a pro offshore sailer) one is much easier to achieve then the other. 
 

Would chutzpah go any faster if he paid ‘pros’? I don’t think so. Barnie handbrake walker 

Barnie Walker has won a stack of Hobarts let alone calling him out as a handbrake. Stupid comment.! 

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48 minutes ago, random101 said:

Can someone please bring me up to speed in from the last 15 years… 

 

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now. Better models, better use of boat polars, better integration with the boats systems. Even starts… takes all the guess work/ fun out of the sport. 
 

Hence the advantage of modern autopilots… 

Really? Muppet!

stan honey.jpg

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1 hour ago, Hitchhiker said:

Well over my head.

 

1 hour ago, herbie verstinx said:

Well hitch, if it makes you happy, old school racing is made up of a few viper sailors. The former showtime gang.

Now I got it.  Bit slow on the old uptake.

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17 hours ago, Matagi said:

I think one factor that is often overlooked is that the flat bottom boats will make for a very exhausting ride for the crews upwind.

so sail em on their ear uphill 

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20 hours ago, The Dark Knight said:

are you expecting them to have a spare main onboard?

If some of the boats that have retired carried a spare main they might be looking forward to tying up in Constitution Dock instead of being back at Rushcutters trying to cancel their flight and accommodation bookings

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The boys and girls at the CYC have done another outstanding job, they have now reached level 2011. No real axe to grind, but have they got computers down there?


Tracker arguably the least reliable ever. At least 3 retired boats beat the fleet to Hobart apparently, see below. The "Firm" hiding in plain sight until they twigged we could see them on Marine Traffic!

They just don't get it, or they don't want to. I don't think they want to provide real coverage because it pushes their boat budgets out......

billy.jpg

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3 hours ago, random. said:

Pros are those without enough money to buy a boat.  It's more fun just to shaft the owner than to have others shaft you.

BTW anyone else hear the goings on on URM just before the start?  Something about "we have already fucked up the start by not using the Code Zero!" and other things.  Was that Waterhouse?  No harmony and cooperation on that one.

Or possibly a WOXI graduate who got their moment on the mic? Who knows?

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3 hours ago, random101 said:

Can someone please bring me up to speed in from the last 15 years… 

 

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now. Better models, better use of boat polars, better integration with the boats systems. Even starts… takes all the guess work/ fun out of the sport. 
 

Hence the advantage of modern autopilots… 

I wouldn’t say so. Using nav software is like giving someone a set of wood work tools and asking them to build a cabinet. Even with the best tools available using still need to know what you’re doing with them if that makes sense…

Also weather models might all disagree with each other but it’s still the navigators job to say where to go. If the weather is more simple then a navigator might then focus on the data coming from the boat and ensure the boat is sailing optimally in more of a performance analysis type role whilst keeping an eye on the routing

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9 minutes ago, Rainbow Spirit said:

Why the CYCA insists on using that poor excuse of a tracker is beyond me, there are so many better ones out there.

It blows my tiny little mind how poor it is. Shouldn't how much they spend on this kind of thing be available at AGM's and what not? 

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3 hours ago, random101 said:

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now.

No. Not the good ones, who are quite rare unfortunately.

though The title might be better changed to on-board meteorologist, because without that, they don’t understand enough of the “why” behind the routings.

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Sometimes it is easier to have 2 navigators, and a data person...

The main navigator is used to make all the crictial desicions at the big moments do the main routing, currents, waves, navigation hazards etc... and while the A navigator is sleeping the B navigator checks everything to make sure there is no major changes, keeps an eye on local weather stations, and watches the data to make sure the yacht is performing. Then you also have another Data person who is more focused on the numbers, logs when there are sail changes, new trimmers/helmsmen etc... normally on wet notes to be added to the data after the race.

and there are some other people holding ropes and yelling stuff too.

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I guess the race is in the pocket for Black Jack line honours but they have to finish first to be sure.
336840831_BoatsSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.png.a85fdf36797bc2b18d43c8e204bc92d9.png
2055784283_WindSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.thumb.png.b6cfa6515d8fb2abcc8b5369bf6d12f6.png
124693400_WavesSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.png.23dcdf2eeec1aa7b950cd9873baf336a.png
2,5 meter swell with little wind is not my favourite condition, they have to deal with it in the coming night.
Might be decisive.
 

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3 hours ago, random101 said:

Can someone please bring me up to speed in from the last 15 years… 

 

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now. Better models, better use of boat polars, better integration with the boats systems. Even starts… takes all the guess work/ fun out of the sport. 
 

Hence the advantage of modern autopilots… 

I completely, utterly and totally agree! How could they not figure that whatever BOM dishes out could not be plugged into a decent kit of software, regardless of the fact that the bureau can only get it right 3 times out of ten with hindsight!?! Yep, nothing ever changes on the fly on the water. These guys are on a good wicket, doing a job that doesn't exist anymore. Lucky I'm a tactician, no AI software can ever be taught how to beautifully screw up and blame it on the Bowman. You're wise beyond your years messiah!

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15 minutes ago, Philc said:

This is not Alive. Wrong colour and ram came through the starboard hull.

Do you realise the green is the water? ;)

 

it would be strange if it was not Alive as they posted that picture on their farcebook page.

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4 hours ago, random101 said:

Can someone please bring me up to speed in from the last 15 years… 

 

Isn’t a navigator* a redundant role? Surely it’s just a matter of looking at a screen to see the best calculated path (as it has been for some time) but assume it would be better now. Better models, better use of boat polars, better integration with the boats systems. Even starts… takes all the guess work/ fun out of the sport. 
 

Hence the advantage of modern autopilots… 

The patch of water they're in is moving at 65,000 mph and spinning laterally at 600mph. With lots of fluid dynamics at different layers. 

But nav is easy.

  

 

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29 minutes ago, Schakel said:

I guess the race is in the pocket for Black Jack line honours but they have to finish first to be sure.
336840831_BoatsSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.png.a85fdf36797bc2b18d43c8e204bc92d9.png
2055784283_WindSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.thumb.png.b6cfa6515d8fb2abcc8b5369bf6d12f6.png
124693400_WavesSydneyHobart28-10EntranceDerwentriver.png.23dcdf2eeec1aa7b950cd9873baf336a.png
2,5 meter swell with little wind is not my favourite condition, they have to deal with it in the coming night.
Might be decisive.
 

Your first time to Hobart?

22 minutes ago, Philc said:

This is not Alive. Wrong colour and ram came through the starboard hull.

That is the Stb hull and the correct colour. Reflections can be deceiving.

 

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2 minutes ago, Philc said:

This is Alive,

Alive Damage.jpg

Doesn't look to good either. they had to return to Sydney harbour, but didn't sink. (Most important.)
Delamination is a problem with carbon.
h5jkmolyfe421.thumb.png.77539984f49c130e487b0bbe4ab16758.png

 

3 minutes ago, vokstar said:

Best view of the finish line? 

https://mnf.csiro.au/en/RV-Investigator

Thanks, within 24 hours a winner might be in sight.

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To the comment re - 2 people for data and one for naviguessing. Like it or not most of these guys have paid services aka a shore team to update and compare the latest models… 

 

Re Barnie - okay not a fair comment to call him a handbrake as such. But I wouldn’t be disappointed if I couldn’t get him for the cost of an air fair vs regular crew who have done several years on the same boat. 
 

Sure there is value there if a highly inexperienced crew what’s to do a big race - but one person won’t fix that issue. 

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19 minutes ago, lahana said:

I completely, utterly and totally agree! How could they not figure that whatever BOM dishes out could not be plugged into a decent kit of software, regardless of the fact that the bureau can only get it right 3 times out of ten with hindsight!?! Yep, nothing ever changes on the fly on the water. These guys are on a good wicket, doing a job that doesn't exist anymore. Lucky I'm a tactician, no AI software can ever be taught how to beautifully screw up and blame it on the Bowman. You're wise beyond your years messiah!

Ya know it's quite late (and snow covered) here in the great PNW but something looks rather purple in this post.

 

 

 

But it could just be my tired old eyes.

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2 hours ago, shaggybaxter said:

Blackjack with 78nm to run currently doing 10kn. If the Derwent shuts down its going to be an early am finish. 

  

 

Looks like BJ will have the two following and catching as they turn with pressure… will be luck to see how far they carry it before the 1am shutdown!

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Fair to say 8 out of 10 times you’ll be routed the best course given the top 3 most recent weather models. 
 

You’d have to have some pretty big balls to go inland if all 3 models are telling you to go offshore and that there would be a time difference of 8 hours. 
 

It’s not exactly a dying art. It’s much like chess, the players are still good but AI is just getting that much better. 
 

If I was playing chess to win against some random opponent would I want the top grandmaster or the best AI to tell me what to do. 
 

I know which I’d pick… 

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9 minutes ago, Schakel said:

Doesn't look to good either. they had to return to Sydney harbour, but didn't sink. (Most important.)
Delamination is a problem with carbon.
h5jkmolyfe421.thumb.png.77539984f49c130e487b0bbe4ab16758.png

 

Thanks, within 24 hours a winner might be in sight.

Informative as always shackle.

9 minutes ago, random101 said:

To the comment re - 2 people for data and one for naviguessing. Like it or not most of these guys have paid services aka a shore team to update and compare the latest models… 

 

Re Barnie - okay not a fair comment to call him a handbrake as such. But I wouldn’t be disappointed if I couldn’t get him for the cost of an air fair vs regular crew who have done several years on the same boat. 
 

Sure there is value there if a highly inexperienced crew what’s to do a big race - but one person won’t fix that issue. 

Another gem from alt Random.

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2 minutes ago, random101 said:

Fair to say 8 out of 10 times you’ll be routed the best course given the top 3 most recent weather models. 
 

You’d have to have some pretty big balls to go inland if all 3 models are telling you to go offshore and that there would be a time difference of 8 hours. 
 

It’s not exactly a dying art. It’s much like chess, the players are still good but AI is just getting that much better. 
 

If I was playing chess to win against some random opponent would I want the top grandmaster or the best AI to tell me what to do. 
 

I know which I’d pick… 

So basically you don't actually don't want to play, you just need to win......

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18 minutes ago, random101 said:

To the comment re - 2 people for data and one for naviguessing. Like it or not most of these guys have paid services aka a shore team to update and compare the latest models… 

And how would you get that 'shore based info' to the boat?

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19 minutes ago, animeproblem said:

Ya know it's quite late (and snow covered) here in the great PNW but something looks rather purple in this post.

 

 

 

But it could just be my tired old eyes.

Purple? Release the grip. ;-)

 

Your eyes are not deceiving.

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25 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

The patch of water they're in is moving at 65,000 mph and spinning laterally at 600mph. With lots of fluid dynamics at different layers. 

But nav is easy.

  

 

Really puts into perspective the efforts of LB in consistently finding that 2nd place Div 3 PHS in offshore races. 

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Wait is this for real? 
 

Are we saying no boats have an internet connection offshore, don’t get updated models or updated paid forecasts specific for their boat? 
 

And if that game of Chess involves me winning a new yacht master then of course I’d get the assistance from the AI if it was an option… 


I’m being called a dumb ass because the boats that follow their nav software will have the best route 8 out of 10 times. 
 

yeah there is an art to being a tactician / navigator. 
 

but it’s 2021 if you want to be competitive you aren’t going to depend on joe blow and his sextant. 
 

My point being you can put any 18 year old with no sailing experience in-front of an iPad with the best info available and you’ll get it right 7 out of 10 times.*

Local knowledge and experience is also highly  valuable don’t get me wrong. 

To the above comment of the 18 year old let’s say he’d get you there 70% with the best route. The Derwent where the race can be won and lost picking the shifts and breeze when there is almost none is where a good navigators money will be made. 
They are few and far between (call it the grandmaster level) but they’ll still use the models the majority of the way. 
 

Anyhow thanks for feeding the troll. 

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Back at 0730

1 minute ago, random101 said:

Wait is this for real? 
 

Are we saying no boats have an internet connection offshore, don’t get updated models or updated paid forecasts specific for their boat? 
 

And if that game of Chess involves me winning a new yacht master then of course I’d get the assistance from the AI if it was an option… 

 

Your skirt is showing.

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2 minutes ago, random101 said:

Wait is this for real? 
 

Are we saying no boats have an internet connection offshore, don’t get updated models or updated paid forecasts specific for their boat? 
 

And if that game of Chess involves me winning a new yacht master then of course I’d get the assistance from the AI if it was an option… 

 

Time to recline back into your armchair

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2 minutes ago, vokstar said:

No. Their tracker has not worked what so ever. 

Except now & then, somebody must be jiggling a wire that makes things look less like doing a fair bit of speed going backwards, or sideways (kind of joking about the sideways bit, now that would be impressive!)

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25 minutes ago, animeproblem said:

Except now & then, somebody must be jiggling a wire that makes things look less like doing a fair bit of speed going backwards, or sideways (kind of joking about the sideways bit, now that would be impressive!)

LC track is updated with AIS and sched positions manually when available.

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1 hour ago, podrick said:

Really puts into perspective the efforts of LB in consistently finding that 2nd place Div 3 PHS in offshore races. 

3rd in div 2. No need to talk me up podcast. How the fuck are you anyway mate?

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21 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

3rd in div 2. No need to talk me up podcast. How the fuck are you anyway mate?

Doing pretty good Bro, busy with 2 kids who do rowing as a school sport, so no time for sailing. Miss those rum fueled discussions at the Glady Yachto.  Older bloke would make a good mastman. 

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3 hours ago, Skipper_nz said:

Sometimes it is easier to have 2 navigators, and a data person...

The main navigator is used to make all the crictial desicions at the big moments do the main routing, currents, waves, navigation hazards etc... and while the A navigator is sleeping the B navigator checks everything to make sure there is no major changes, keeps an eye on local weather stations, and watches the data to make sure the yacht is performing. Then you also have another Data person who is more focused on the numbers, logs when there are sail changes, new trimmers/helmsmen etc... normally on wet notes to be added to the data after the race.

and there are some other people holding ropes and yelling stuff too.

If only you had a crew big enough to afford that luxury. Last time I navigated S2H I did all 3 roles. That was a couple of years back. 

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8 hours ago, LB 15 said:

begs the question what kind of retard hires pro’s to sail PHS?

I thought we were interested in encouraging new players into our sport. 

I know of cases where a keen sailor invites someone out for a twilight sail - the invitee loves it, has enough cash to buy a boat but has no idea what to buy. The original invitor introduces the newbie to a pro who the invitor knows.  The pro works with the newbie to establish what sort of boat would suit him best, and guides the newbie through the purchasing process,  

The newbie loves his new boat and the pro sails on the twilights to help the newbie learn.  The newbie gets the competitive urge and decides to upgrade to a racing yacht.  The pro assists in the sale of the learning yacht, and the purchase of a suitable racing yacht.  The pro then ensures the yacht is in proper condition for racing and accompanies the new racing skipper on his learning experience, possibly brining a couple of other pros along as well at the beginning.

Question - why is the pro seen as a greedy cunt in all of this?  Oh, and btw, do you have any idea what the average time for payment is of an invoice in this industry?

In the yacht racing industry in Australia, the ones being screwed most often are the people trying to earn a living as professional sailors, and the ones doing the screwing are most often those standing on the podium, or aspiring to.

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2 hours ago, random101 said:

To the comment re - 2 people for data and one for naviguessing. Like it or not most of these guys have paid services aka a shore team to update and compare the latest models…

Not after the start they don’t - that’s outside assistance. 
 

Obtaining, digesting and acting on weather data is one thing, monitoring and acting on  performance data and logging events is another thing altogether. Both are essential during racing in a serious program. 

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