Jump to content

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You can get an nice electric for similar cost to you, as an ICE today, if shipping for a medium-lux small SUV. More form factors coming to a dealership near you. Comparing a Tesla S to a Corolla is just not a valid comparison. 

Base Model 3s are quite cheap (high 30s) and are still freakin quick.  SWMBO has one.  Her previous car was a Boxster S and she likes the Tesla better.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Her previous car was a Boxster S and she likes the Tesla better.  

That's a strong endorsement.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Raz'r said:
19 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Her previous car was a Boxster S and she likes the Tesla better.  

That's a strong endorsement.

It is.  She is a bit of a sports car aficionado and adrenaline junky.  Before we met, She used to ride a ZX6 at one point until she laid it down in the rain when an oncoming Lorry was way over the line.  But she's had a series of nice lux sports cars - An AMG SLK in the UK and then a new Boxster S in Dubai.  When we found out that we couldn't import either of our Porsches back to the US, we both had to buy from scratch.  I got back to the US a few weeks ahead of her and picked up my X pretty much that first weekend.  When she got here, I tried to talk her into a Telsa as well.  She had zero desire.  She wanted something used and practical to get around town rather than a two seat sports car again.  She test drove a bunch of stuff and everywhere she went she just walked away disappointed and underwhelmed.  I finally convinced her to at least give the the Model 3 a test drive just to rule it out.  She was about 10 min out of the dealership on a quick drive and she turned right around and ordered one that day.  She said it was as nice or nicer than her Boxster S and quicker off the line.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Maybe I should change my avatar pic to this

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.40iA8ZcgeO76NwN6DCkKBQHaE8%26pid%3DApi&f=1

- DSK

They were damn fast as I recall.   

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, El Borracho said:

I heard that the old-world automakers, Ford, et al, use obsolete chips. Their development efforts slow, uninspired, penny-pinching. The chip makers don’t favor making ancient chips. The quantities for the dinosaur Detroit production are relatively small. Tesla uses modern current production silicon … as any smart company would.  

Thanks.   I’d forgotten I’d read something similar about designers not wanting to leave the comfort zone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Interesting link. As I said, you're going to have to store that CO2 and find a home for it. Right now, these engines are way too big for passenger cars. Again according to your link.

It's not the separation and filtration that's going to be the big problem, it's going to be dealing with 20 pounds of CO2 per gallon. (22.38 lbs for diesel...it is more energy dense, after all).

 

image.thumb.png.8d9ce422c1bb273229f755feb0249c18.png

They talk about making a smaller version by only partially scrubbing the exhaust, for cars.

image.thumb.png.00bca03533895cc5cd0b2da05f95dd0a.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Raz'r said:

You can get an nice electric for similar cost to you, as an ICE today, if shipping for a medium-lux small SUV. More form factors coming to a dealership near you. Comparing a Tesla S to a Corolla is just not a valid comparison. 

This is the cheapest Electric car in the UK today  2020 Smart EQ Forfour side view, driving

Minimum price around £21,000 (about $29,000) range 68 miles. I need to be able to drive 450 miles in a day, I can do that with a new ICE car which is slightly bigger than the car above  for £8000 (about $11,000)

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, The Q said:

This is the cheapest Electric car in the UK today  2020 Smart EQ Forfour side view, driving

Minimum price around £21,000 (about $29,000) range 68 miles. I need to be able to drive 450 miles in a day, I can do that with a new ICE car which is slightly bigger than the car above  for £8000 (about $11,000)

Consider a hybrid?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The cheapest UK Hybrid is around £19,000 ($26,000) and so is twice the price and a little smaller than the ICE car at £8000. So it's unlikely to recover it's extra costs in it's life time. Especially as I'll be retired by then and be doing much less mileage on a daily basis but still need to do the long distance.

In all likely hood I'll buy a diesel in a couple of years as a retirement present to myself. Then if another car is needed, the ban on new ICE cars from 2030 will be in place and all cars will be electric. so bringing down prices..

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a simple truth across all cultures - "If energy is cheap, then efficiency doesn't matter."

That's been the biggest impediment to renewables for my entire life.  Not oil companies.  Not grand conspiracies.  Cheap energy.  It's REALLY tough to compete with burning a rock if you're only metric is cost.  The corollary is "when you raise the cost of energy, you hurt poor people first and middle class second."

That's the viscous cycle, in a nutshell, and why the world hasn't agree on a path forward.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Q said:

Minimum price around £21,000 (about $29,000) range 68 miles.

That range sucks.

I'm looking into lithium batteries for my golf cart just to make it lighter. I can trim 300-400 lbs, which would be nice, but they're expensive enough that I'm going to wear out the old ones first.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Excoded Tom said:

That range sucks.

I'm looking into lithium batteries for my golf cart just to make it lighter. I can trim 300-400 lbs, which would be nice, but they're expensive enough that I'm going to wear out the old ones first.

Same with my diesel electric motor boat, the battery pack is currently lead acid, when the pack fails I'll be looking at lithium.. But that may require modifications to the generator to get the charging right... (or a box of tricks in between.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, The Q said:

The cheapest UK Hybrid is around £19,000 ($26,000) and so is twice the price and a little smaller than the ICE car at £8000. So it's unlikely to recover it's extra costs in it's life time. Especially as I'll be retired by then and be doing much less mileage on a daily basis but still need to do the long distance.

In all likely hood I'll buy a diesel in a couple of years as a retirement present to myself. Then if another car is needed, the ban on new ICE cars from 2030 will be in place and all cars will be electric. so bringing down prices..

It’s possible that the old timer gas, diesel cars increase in value 

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, The Q said:

This is the cheapest Electric car in the UK today  2020 Smart EQ Forfour side view, driving

Minimum price around £21,000 (about $29,000) range 68 miles. I need to be able to drive 450 miles in a day, I can do that with a new ICE car which is slightly bigger than the car above  for £8000 (about $11,000)

450 miles in a day? That's 9 hours averaging 50mph, which is darn hard to do.

And it's outside the profile of any e-car anyway.

Corner case to the extreme. 

Prices are cheaper in the US:

image.thumb.png.181e1ff5c9d01f6e7841618bf4fca2d8.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Lark said:

Thanks.   I’d forgotten I’d read something similar about designers not wanting to leave the comfort zone.

It's not always a "comfort zone" issue.  Unlike, say, a computer, where a boost in speed and performance is always useful, many of the chips used in embedded systems (like cars) perform a few fairly simple functions and being faster or having more memory add no value whatsoever.  Redesigning a circuit board and firmware to use the hot chip of the month is expensive at every step of the way, from the engineering to the inventory control and servicing complications.  So unless some new feature make an actual difference the only reason to change the design is lack of component availability.

I've got some test equipment designs that could go to market right now, except that several of the chips just aren't available.  These are popular chips in the prime of their design cycle. not anything esoteric, but not jellybean enough that there are drop-in replacements.  The distributors are still quoting "52-week" delivery, which means they don't know when they will be available.

There are multiple causes for this shortage:  demand spike, the world's biggest semi fab line (TSMC in Taiwan) burned down, the major supplier of epoxy resin (used for the chip bodies) had their plant burn, shipping delays, etc.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, The Q said:

The cheapest UK Hybrid is around £19,000 ($26,000) and so is twice the price and a little smaller than the ICE car at £8000. So it's unlikely to recover it's extra costs in it's life time. Especially as I'll be retired by then and be doing much less mileage on a daily basis but still need to do the long distance.

In all likely hood I'll buy a diesel in a couple of years as a retirement present to myself. Then if another car is needed, the ban on new ICE cars from 2030 will be in place and all cars will be electric. so bringing down prices..

If you are really driving 450 miles per day (seems doubtful, but maybe) you should really spreadsheet those costs.  I think you might be surprised.

This is a perfect example of why we are not going to meet our climate change goals.  People are either unwilling or unable to change their fossil-fuel consuming habits.  I am as guilty as anyone, btw.  We need transportation alternatives that are green and convenient, and we don't have enough time to build them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem in two pictures:

This is Ontario, a province with about 15 million people.

The conversion factor is 3.6 PJ = 1 TWH.

Residential use of power (HVAC, lighting, cooking) currently aligns with 100% of the generating capacity (and that still includes some fossil fuels).

So you can be warm/cool in your home but if you want a job, food, or travel farther than you can walk, the generating capacity needs to increase 500%.

Demand.png

Generation.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Raz'r said:

450 miles in a day? That's 9 hours averaging 50mph, which is darn hard to do.

 

 

Our motorway and dual carriageway speed limit is 70mph, and most of the other roads on the way are 60mph... 3/4 of the route is 70mph.. But even then it does take 9 hours with stops..

My record in a single journey was about 810miles of driving  though after the first 20 miles there was a 5 hour ferry journey of 88miles.  Took about 20 hours that one. Luckily I'll never have to do that one again...

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tax Man said:

The problem in two pictures:

This is Ontario, a province with about 15 million people.

The conversion factor is 3.6 PJ = 1 TWH.

Residential use of power (HVAC, lighting, cooking) currently aligns with 100% of the generating capacity (and that still includes some fossil fuels).

So you can be warm/cool in your home but if you want a job, food, or travel farther than you can walk, the generating capacity needs to increase 500%.

Demand.png

Generation.png

OF COURSE generation = demand. Who's going to invest in generation if they can't sell the electrons? Man, some folks just don't understand the basics of a market economy....

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, The Q said:

Our motorway and dual carriageway speed limit is 70mph, and most of the other roads on the way are 60mph... 3/4 of the route is 70mph.. But even then it does take 9 hours with stops..

My record in a single journey was about 810miles of driving  though after the first 20 miles there was a 5 hour ferry journey of 88miles.  Took about 20 hours that one. Luckily I'll never have to do that one again...

Yeah, E-Cars with battery tech don't support that very-very-very corner use case. Get a diesel. Or a fax machine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Rain Man said:

If you are really driving 450 miles per day (seems doubtful, but maybe) you should really spreadsheet those costs.  I think you might be surprised.

It's only 2 or 3 times a year I drive the 400 miles to my parents stay a week and then return. The extra 50 Is if we divert to SWMBOs brother for a coffee on the way.

Both at SWMBO's brothers and my parents it's communal car parks, so no charging there..

Added to that is 10,000 miles a year to and from work, 1200 miles a year to the sailing club and back. Plus another 1000 of other odd journeys.

The 10,000 miles a year will stop at the end of 2022 when I retire.

Back when I was a field service engineer I was doing 50,000 miles a year just for work...

I don't deny that overall economically electric could be cheaper, but there isn't the infrastructure to do the journey electrically without significantly adding to the 9hours of the trip.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Q said:

It's only 2 or 3 times a year I drive the 400 miles to my parents stay a week and then return. The extra 50 Is if we divert to SWMBOs brother for a coffee on the way.

Both at SWMBO's brothers and my parents it's communal car parks, so no charging there..

Added to that is 10,000 miles a year to and from work, 1200 miles a year to the sailing club and back. Plus another 1000 of other odd journeys.

The 10,000 miles a year will stop at the end of 2022 when I retire.

Back when I was a field service engineer I was doing 50,000 miles a year just for work...

I don't deny that overall economically electric could be cheaper, but there isn't the infrastructure to do the journey electrically without significantly adding to the 9hours of the trip.

twice a year? Rent a gasser. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

twice a year? Rent a gasser. 

The cheapest  equivalent hire car is £265 a week plus £72  insurance. Plus a taxi to the hire car depot twice so add another £100.  So £437(603 dollars) for the week or about 1800 dollars a year added to the price of a car that costs 2 to 3 times the price of an ice car... Hardly an economic proposition.

And in 2030 "gassers" won't be available in the UK for hire, as the depots change their cars every 6 months..

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...