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Been watching all the doom/gloom  news , and talking heads for all the reasons we might be going to have one, 

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

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2 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

Might help if you gave us some readings assignments to get us started. 

whatcha got ??

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Going to?  When one side decides it is in a war, it is a war. Whether the other side wants to pussyfoot around it or not does not matter.

We've been in one for quite some time, it just hasn't been a hot one for the most part, with few exceptions, the most prominent being 1/6. 

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4 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

Been watching all the doom/gloom  news , and talking heads for all the reasons we might be going to have one, 

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

You don't need to worry about the MT-6 coming for you anytime soon...they have a lot of KFCs on their way.1872743318_Mealteamsix.thumb.png.50442abc78f53d31ff9a067c9ee910b5.png

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Operation Dessert Storm?

Seriously, I have heard some nattering about 'civil war'.  But it seems to be just a bunch of whiners on the Internet. Is it more than that?

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Just now, Bugsy said:

Operation Dessert Storm?

Seriously, I have heard some nattering about 'civil war'.  But it seems to be just a bunch of whiners on the Internet. Is it more than that?

Facebook has shown us how destructive and corrosive misinformation can be, but it is profitable….

It isn’t just the Internet. Limbaugh was teaching Americans to hate each other for decades. Rupert Murdoch took that to a broader/different audience. The Internet allows bad actors to weaponize all that hate. That genie is out of the bottle now. 

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17 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

Been watching all the doom/gloom  news , and talking heads for all the reasons we might be going to have one, 

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

Searching "civil war" gives you a whole page of cites of recent discussions on the topic.

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1 hour ago, Bugsy said:

Operation Dessert Storm?

Seriously, I have heard some nattering about 'civil war'.  But it seems to be just a bunch of whiners on the Internet. Is it more than that?

There have been more than a few congress"persons" pushing the idea.

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How a Civil War turns out, depends on who is running the government. A person like Trump, will use the opportunity to redraw his legacy, I think many people could die. A person like Biden would try to keep the peace. Still, a lot of people could die. There are no winners in a Civil War, only heartache.

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1 hour ago, VhmSays said:

You don't need to worry about the MT-6 coming for you anytime soon...they have a lot of KFCs on their way.1872743318_Mealteamsix.thumb.png.50442abc78f53d31ff9a067c9ee910b5.png

a yuuuuuge target

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1 hour ago, Bugsy said:

Operation Dessert Storm?

Seriously, I have heard some nattering about 'civil war'.  But it seems to be just a bunch of whiners on the Internet. Is it more than that?

They are working to keep the battle horizontal - between the people - rather than vertical - between the people and their representatives. 

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"'At this point, we're living under a corporate and medical fascism. This is tyranny. When do we get to use the guns?' the man asked, prompting cheers and applause from the crowd. 'That's not a joke, I'm not saying it like that. I mean, literally, where's the line? How many elections are they going to steal before we kill these people?'"

https://www.newsweek.com/charlie-kirk-guns-kill-people-election-fraud-1642588

It really gets me when people hypothesize about a 21st century civil war like it would be 1861 Part II (not that that's a particularly pleasant thought either). It would be less like Gettysburg and more like Aleppo. Neighbor against neighbor, power vacuums filled by ideological and/or religious fanatics, mass killings, and a complete collapse of anything resembling a stable, optimistic future for our country. It would be the biggest own-goal in history.

I can't understand anyone who favors violence over literally any other solution given the inevitable consequences, but I'm increasingly terrified of what the endgame looks like for our particular moment.

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7 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I know the guy with the banging halyards will be the first to die. I don't care who he votes for ... he's going down.

Shit ya. And raise his head to top of the mast with his own clanging halyard.  

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4 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

Shit ya. And raise his head to top of the mast with his own clanging halyard.  

no doubt wire halyards with fishhooks in them ;-)

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With the retail supply system in the US so fragile, and the loudest whiners being most dependent on it, a civil war is going to require so careful planning. Are Don Jr. and MTG up to the task? Can they organize enough fuel, toilet paper and burgers to supply the troops? Would occupying the Capitol and WH be enough? Would the huge DC bureaucracy even notice?

Can anyone imagine the RWNJs actually getting organized? The anti-war rioters in the 60’s were more organized. They only occupied open spaces and student union buildings. 

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2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Going to?  When one side decides it is in a war, it is a war. Whether the other side wants to pussyfoot around it or not does not matter.

The only war is the one going on in the empty space between your ears, halfwit. :D

 D50F.gif

 

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

I view it as mass weapons and disabled veterans, and military cemeteries.

But it's used as a euphemism for almost anything.

And possibly indicative of boredom on PA.  Biden's boring, let's face it.  Skim the topic list any morning on PA, and you won't see his name.

I'm not knocking boredom.  Sure beats war. 

Or banging halyards against aluminum spar. Spruce, not so much, if you can find one.

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49 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

I know the guy with the banging halyards will be the first to die. I don't care who he votes for ... he's going down.

When I lived aboard for 12 years, banging halyards and pumping masts were my "white noise" machine.  They put me right to sleep.  Now it is my dog snoring.

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37 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

With the retail supply system in the US so fragile, and the loudest whiners being most dependent on it, a civil war is going to require so careful planning. Are Don Jr. and MTG up to the task? Can they organize enough fuel, toilet paper and burgers to supply the troops? Would occupying the Capitol and WH be enough? Would the huge DC bureaucracy even notice?

Can anyone imagine the RWNJs actually getting organized? The anti-war rioters in the 60’s were more organized. They only occupied open spaces and student union buildings. 

Exactly - imagine what the 6th would have looked like if they had the Kent State National Guard protecting the Capitol.

Meal Team 6 and the Gravy Seals will be nothing but target practice for the real  tough guys if the biological waste ever truly interfaces with the rotary oscillator.

Anybody who thinks the USA is on the brink of civil war obviously wasn't around in the 60's when the big cities were burning and the army was in the streets.

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What if there was a war and nobody came?  It's PA for Passive Aggressive where they wear funny clothes, buy flags and banners and go to rallies.

Listen to the Trumpets.   “The world is full of talkers, but it is rare to find anyone who listens. And I assure you that you can pick up more information when you are listening than when you are talking.”
― E.B. White, quote from The Trumpet of the Swan

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Folks aren't going to give up their families, 3 squares, their pickup and the home to go off to "battle."  

Look at the losers from the 1/6 insurrection.

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Folks aren't going to give up their families, 3 squares, their pickup and the home to go off to "battle."  

Look at the losers from the 1/6 insurrection.

Very true, but if anyone has to worry it will be the politicians who they will direct their anger at.

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Look at the losers from the 1/6 insurrection.

Actually, many of them were doing well economically - mentally, not so much. 

Substantially, it was about race. 

bold type added by me 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/06/us/politics/capitol-riot-study.html

Mr. Pape said. “You see a common pattern in the Capitol insurrectionists. They are mainly middle-class to upper-middle-class whites who are worried that, as social changes occur around them, they will see a decline in their status in the future.”

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

who wants to bust up America??;

FAUX News, Clear channel Communications, American Family Radio

What they are working for is an end to that silly experiment called democracy.  They want to return to the good old days when the rich lorded over the poor and the poor did what they were told, or else.

Make America Go Autocratic!

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15 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

social changes occur around them, they will see a decline in their status in the future.”

I know there were dr's and lawyers etc there, but it would be interesting to figure out the average level of education of the idiots that actually went in.  I would assume that the more educated of the elk would have stay'd out so they won't skew the numbers.  Those that are more educated and worldly do not see that..  IMHO of course...  

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An Open Letter in Defense of Democracy

The future of democracy in the United States is in danger.
 
OCTOBER 27, 2021 9:00 AM

We are writers, academics, and political activists who have long disagreed about many things.

Some of us are Democrats and others Republicans. Some identify with the left, some with the right, and some with neither. We have disagreed in the past, and we hope to be able to disagree, productively, for years to come. Because we believe in the pluralism that is at the heart of democracy.

But right now we agree on a fundamental point: We need to join together to defend liberal democracy.

Because liberal democracy itself is in serious danger. Liberal democracy depends on free and fair elections, respect for the rights of others, the rule of law, a commitment to truth and tolerance in our public discourse. All of these are now in serious danger.

The primary source of this danger is one of our two major national parties, the Republican Party, which remains under the sway of Donald Trump and Trumpist authoritarianism. Unimpeded by Trump’s defeat in 2020 and unfazed by the January 6 insurrection, Trump and his supporters actively work to exploit anxieties and prejudices, to promote reckless hostility to the truth and to Americans who disagree with them, and to discredit the very practice of free and fair elections in which winners and losers respect the peaceful transfer of power.

So we, who have differed on so much in the past—and who continue to differ on much today—have come together to say:

We vigorously oppose ongoing Republican efforts to change state election laws to limit voter participation.

We vigorously oppose ongoing Republican efforts to empower state legislatures to override duly appointed election officials and interfere with the proper certification of election results, thereby substituting their own political preferences for those expressed by citizens at the polls.

We vigorously oppose the relentless and unending promotion of unprofessional and phony “election audits” that waste public money, jeopardize public electoral data and voting machines, and generate paranoia about the legitimacy of elections.

We urge the Democratic-controlled Congress to pass effective, national legislation to protect the vote and our elections, and if necessary to override the Senate filibuster rule.

And we urge all responsible citizens who care about democracy—public officials, journalists, educators, activists, ordinary citizens—to make the defense of democracy an urgent priority now.

Now is the time for leaders in all walks of life—for citizens of all political backgrounds and persuasions—to come to the aid of the Republic.

 

https://www.thebulwark.com/an-open-letter-in-defense-of-democracy/

 ^^^^Long list of signatories^^^^

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7 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

Been watching all the doom/gloom  news , and talking heads for all the reasons we might be going to have one, 

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

 Don't know but FOXitis is a legal defense. https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/05/07/fox-news-anthony-antonio-capitol-riot/

 

  A known cause of brain damage. Use with caution.   

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Personally, I don't see a civil war anytime soon but I see a cycle of increase in violence and authoritarian crackdowns in the name of 'public safety'.

I'd be interested in seeing if there's appetite for a divorce.

Given that half the country treats the other half with utter disdain, it seems like a logical end.  But half a country doesn't get to be a reserve currency - and there's NOOO way the beautiful people would risk their McTopia.

 

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9 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:

Might help if you gave us some readings assignments to get us started. 

whatcha got ??

WTF?  You are not a prof of a no name community college anymore and we are not your students that you can assign homework.  Fuck right off.

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9 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

Going to?  When one side decides it is in a war, it is a war. Whether the other side wants to pussyfoot around it or not does not matter.

We've been in one for quite some time, it just hasn't been a hot one for the most part, with few exceptions, the most prominent being 1/6. 

Bah.  I disagree.  We are not in a civil war..... yet.  Although there are the ingredients for it aplenty lying around.  If we were in a civil war, the two sides wouldn't even be talking to each other.  No, I think we are in a transition period (kinda like Jules' speech to Ringo).  The next 4-10 years will decide where it goes.  Can we diffuse it and get back to being an actual "United" States - or are there continued skirmishes that eventually get the powder keg to go pop.  

One thing that might diffuse this a bit is to stop calling everyone on the right rikeestas, deplorables, morons, lunatics, traitors, etc.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who actually stormed the Capitol on 1/6.  I'd be happy to put them all up against a wall and face a firing squad.  But there are a LOT of people out there, some 74 million give or take a few hundy K, that are not happy with the way 'Murica is going and where it's headed and have some legitimate grievances.  Not ALL of their grievances are legit.  But a lot are.  And then there are a HUGE swath of people in the middle who have some toes and fingers in both soup bowls.  Many who have sympathy with issues or policies on both sides of the spectrum.  The more the bases polarize - the more those in the middle get turned off and they stop voting.  Which then means we will be assured of even more Cray Cray in positions of High power, left AND right.  

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33 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Bah.  I disagree.  We are not in a civil war..... yet.  Although there are the ingredients for it aplenty lying around.  If we were in a civil war, the two sides wouldn't even be talking to each other.  No, I think we are in a transition period (kinda like Jules' speech to Ringo).  The next 4-10 years will decide where it goes.  Can we diffuse it and get back to being an actual "United" States - or are there continued skirmishes that eventually get the powder keg to go pop.  

One thing that might diffuse this a bit is to stop calling everyone on the right rikeestas, deplorables, morons, lunatics, traitors, etc.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who actually stormed the Capitol on 1/6.  I'd be happy to put them all up against a wall and face a firing squad.  But there are a LOT of people out there, some 74 million give or take a few hundy K, that are not happy with the way 'Murica is going and where it's headed and have some legitimate grievances.  Not ALL of their grievances are legit.  But a lot are.  And then there are a HUGE swath of people in the middle who have some toes and fingers in both soup bowls.  Many who have sympathy with issues or policies on both sides of the spectrum.  The more the bases polarize - the more those in the middle get turned off and they stop voting.  Which then means we will be assured of even more Cray Cray in positions of High power, left AND right.  

How should I refer to people who slag Anthony Fauci?  “The Esteemed Scholars”? Sorry, they are morons. Calling them anything else is giving them a participation trophy. 

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33 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Bah.  I disagree.  We are not in a civil war..... yet.  Although there are the ingredients for it aplenty lying around.  If we were in a civil war, the two sides wouldn't even be talking to each other.  No, I think we are in a transition period (kinda like Jules' speech to Ringo).  The next 4-10 years will decide where it goes.  Can we diffuse it and get back to being an actual "United" States - or are there continued skirmishes that eventually get the powder keg to go pop.  

One thing that might diffuse this a bit is to stop calling everyone on the right rikeestas, deplorables, morons, lunatics, traitors, etc.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who actually stormed the Capitol on 1/6.  I'd be happy to put them all up against a wall and face a firing squad.  But there are a LOT of people out there, some 74 million give or take a few hundy K, that are not happy with the way 'Murica is going and where it's headed and have some legitimate grievances.  Not ALL of their grievances are legit.  But a lot are.  And then there are a HUGE swath of people in the middle who have some toes and fingers in both soup bowls.  Many who have sympathy with issues or policies on both sides of the spectrum.  The more the bases polarize - the more those in the middle get turned off and they stop voting.  Which then means we will be assured of even more Cray Cray in positions of High power, left AND right.  

Tough shit. 81 million decided the direction of this country. If they want civility, they can start with their own shit spewing trash mouth. We both know that the 74 million who voted for Trump are not all crazy, and those that are represent a small minority, and they continue to be America's biggest problem. If the rest want a dialog, we would be glad to meet in our sacred temple called Congress, where the side that is currently obstructing, can stop with the temper tantrums, sit down, and open a conversation that guides this country out of the abyss. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Bah.  I disagree.  We are not in a civil war..... yet.  Although there are the ingredients for it aplenty lying around.  If we were in a civil war, the two sides wouldn't even be talking to each other.  No, I think we are in a transition period (kinda like Jules' speech to Ringo).  The next 4-10 years will decide where it goes.  Can we diffuse it and get back to being an actual "United" States - or are there continued skirmishes that eventually get the powder keg to go pop.  

One thing that might diffuse this a bit is to stop calling everyone on the right rikeestas, deplorables, morons, lunatics, traitors, etc.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who actually stormed the Capitol on 1/6.  I'd be happy to put them all up against a wall and face a firing squad.  But there are a LOT of people out there, some 74 million give or take a few hundy K, that are not happy with the way 'Murica is going and where it's headed and have some legitimate grievances.  Not ALL of their grievances are legit.  But a lot are.  And then there are a HUGE swath of people in the middle who have some toes and fingers in both soup bowls.  Many who have sympathy with issues or policies on both sides of the spectrum.  The more the bases polarize - the more those in the middle get turned off and they stop voting.  Which then means we will be assured of even more Cray Cray in positions of High power, left AND right.  

I don't consider everyone on the right to be a RWNJ.  But they do exist, and seem to be controlling the agenda on the right at the moment.  See the thread about what happened to the Republican Party.   

If the RWNJ's continue to own the Republican party, there will definitely be more violence down the road if the D's win the next election IMHO.  Jan. 6 was just a rehearsal.  OTOH, if the R's manage to steal the next election from the D's by suppressing votes, I doubt there is much appetite for violence on the left.  All that is left is for the R's to abolish term limits with a sympathetic SCOTUS and it will be game over for democracy in the USA.  

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The last election was the first time I've ever seen campaign flags/posters/shirts that said "Fuck Your Feelings" , "Fuck Biden" etc.  Lawn signs that proudly say "Fuck Biden".  The dumbing down of Gilead is almost complete. 

Currently "Let's Go Brandon" is repeated endlessly at RW events. 

These people have no shame. It IS despicable, deplorable, etc.  They have no basis in fact. (Eva Densed here often) They just repeat random made up shit. They won't have reasoned conversations. Their representatives currently only know how to obstruct, not participate in a functioning government. They're dying because of their own stupidity just because they hate-hate-hate the libs. 

What should we call them? At some point if it walks like a fascist, talks like a fascist, maybe it is a fascist. 

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1 hour ago, Burning Man said:

Bah.  I disagree.  We are not in a civil war..... yet.  Although there are the ingredients for it aplenty lying around.  If we were in a civil war, the two sides wouldn't even be talking to each other.  No, I think we are in a transition period (kinda like Jules' speech to Ringo).  The next 4-10 years will decide where it goes.  Can we diffuse it and get back to being an actual "United" States - or are there continued skirmishes that eventually get the powder keg to go pop.  

One thing that might diffuse this a bit is to stop calling everyone on the right rikeestas, deplorables, morons, lunatics, traitors, etc.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for the people who actually stormed the Capitol on 1/6.  I'd be happy to put them all up against a wall and face a firing squad.  But there are a LOT of people out there, some 74 million give or take a few hundy K, that are not happy with the way 'Murica is going and where it's headed and have some legitimate grievances.  Not ALL of their grievances are legit.  But a lot are.  And then there are a HUGE swath of people in the middle who have some toes and fingers in both soup bowls.  Many who have sympathy with issues or policies on both sides of the spectrum.  The more the bases polarize - the more those in the middle get turned off and they stop voting.  Which then means we will be assured of even more Cray Cray in positions of High power, left AND right.  

   Jeff, you give those nimrods control of the election process and I'll shoot them on general principles. 

That's the biggest danger I see. The Rs are passing laws in many states that allow state legislators to cancel the results of an election. If that happens violence, the real deal, not just some bozos waving flags, becomes a real possibility. The leaders of these people, the common clay of the American West seems the politically correct way to address them at the moment, are spreading distrust in the election process itself. Without that we will settle things the old fashion way.    

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

I don't consider everyone on the right to be a RWNJ.  But they do exist, and seem to be controlling the agenda on the right at the moment.  See the thread about what happened to the Republican Party.   

If the RWNJ's continue to own the Republican party, there will definitely be more violence down the road if the D's win the next election IMHO.  Jan. 6 was just a rehearsal.  OTOH, if the R's manage to steal the next election from the D's by suppressing votes, I doubt there is much appetite for violence on the left.  All that is left is for the R's to abolish term limits elections with a sympathetic SCOTUS and it will be game over for democracy in the USA.  

We don't have term limits now. The Supreme Court has already decided that a US citizens right to vote is subject to the whims of his states partisan bureaucracy (ie there is no right to vote).

IMHO if R's win, and we see a repeat of Trump or somebody just as corrupt and venal, the USA will go bankrupt in fairly short order and fall apart.

I was a little surprised there was not more outright voter intimidation, violence against poll workers, etc etc, in the 2020 election. But they can do better this next time.

Or maybe not. Maybe 2020 is the high-water mark for fascism in Amerika. That'd be nice

- DSK

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I'm up for it, as long as it's civil....

Like someone recently said: the division in this country isn't north and south, or east and west, it's power/wealth VS. poverty/struggle.

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

I'm up for it, as long as it's civil....

Like someone recently said: the division in this country isn't north and south, or east and west, it's power/wealth VS. poverty/struggle.

Good point, the power/wealth have all too lose and the poverty/struggle are already there, with nothing to lose as they own nothing , the rich slump lord does.

The power/wealth have no or very little leadership ( look at the former guy on 1/6 was watching it on TV in a bunker) so whose going to do there dirty work. Lets see tell the guy that drives his F-XXX he;ll lose it, or his house and food for his family , see how long he'll fight for the rich? They'll wake up real quick when they realize the rich don't give a shit about them

Shit people are leaving the rich (their jobs ) due to poor working conditions ( did I hear the word UNION), And saying life's too short to fight/work for some rich asshole.

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8 minutes ago, Not for nothing said:

Good point, the power/wealth have all too lose and the poverty/struggle are already there, with nothing to lose as they own nothing , the rich slump lord does.

The power/wealth have no or very little leadership ( look at the former guy on 1/6 was watching it on TV in a bunker) so whose going to do there dirty work. Lets see tell the guy that drives his F-XXX he;ll lose it, or his house and food for his family , see how long he'll fight for the rich? They'll wake up real quick when they realize the rich don't give a shit about them

Shit people are leaving the rich (their jobs ) due to poor working conditions ( did I hear the word UNION), And saying life's too short to fight/work for some rich asshole.

What’s a slump lord?  

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1 hour ago, gptyk said:

The last election was the first time I've ever seen campaign flags/posters/shirts that said "Fuck Your Feelings" , "Fuck Biden" etc.  Lawn signs that proudly say "Fuck Biden".  The dumbing down of Gilead is almost complete. 

Currently "Let's Go Brandon" is repeated endlessly at RW events. 

These people have no shame. It IS despicable, deplorable, etc.  They have no basis in fact. (Eva Densed here often) They just repeat random made up shit. They won't have reasoned conversations. Their rEva Densedepresentatives currently only know how to obstruct, not participate in a functioning government. They're dying because of their own stupidity just because they hate-hate-hate the libs. 

What should we call them? At some point if it walks like a fascist, talks like a fascist, maybe it is a fascist. 

Eva Densed”

I was wondering what the plural of that looked like.  Thanks.

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

and the Gravy Seals

Gravy Seals???  OMG, I just spit my Gin n Tonic all over myself trying not to douse my keyboard.  :lol:

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7 hours ago, Jules said:

What they are working for is an end to that silly experiment called democracy.  They want to return to the good old days when the rich lorded over the poor and the poor did what they were told, or else.

Make America Go Autocratic!

Do you honestly believe that, Jules?  I mean really?  It sounds nice in an alarmist way.  But I'm pretty sure the insurrectionists thought they were "saving democracy".  

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7 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

An Open Letter in Defense of Democracy

The future of democracy in the United States is in danger.
 
OCTOBER 27, 2021 9:00 AM

We are writers, academics, and political activists who have long disagreed about many things.

Some of us are Democrats and others Republicans. Some identify with the left, some with the right, and some with neither. We have disagreed in the past, and we hope to be able to disagree, productively, for years to come. Because we believe in the pluralism that is at the heart of democracy.

But right now we agree on a fundamental point: We need to join together to defend liberal democracy.

Because liberal democracy itself is in serious danger. Liberal democracy depends on free and fair elections, respect for the rights of others, the rule of law, a commitment to truth and tolerance in our public discourse. All of these are now in serious danger.

The primary source of this danger is one of our two major national parties, the Republican Party, which remains under the sway of Donald Trump and Trumpist authoritarianism. Unimpeded by Trump’s defeat in 2020 and unfazed by the January 6 insurrection, Trump and his supporters actively work to exploit anxieties and prejudices, to promote reckless hostility to the truth and to Americans who disagree with them, and to discredit the very practice of free and fair elections in which winners and losers respect the peaceful transfer of power.

So we, who have differed on so much in the past—and who continue to differ on much today—have come together to say:

We vigorously oppose ongoing Republican efforts to change state election laws to limit voter participation.

We vigorously oppose ongoing Republican efforts to empower state legislatures to override duly appointed election officials and interfere with the proper certification of election results, thereby substituting their own political preferences for those expressed by citizens at the polls.

We vigorously oppose the relentless and unending promotion of unprofessional and phony “election audits” that waste public money, jeopardize public electoral data and voting machines, and generate paranoia about the legitimacy of elections.

We urge the Democratic-controlled Congress to pass effective, national legislation to protect the vote and our elections, and if necessary to override the Senate filibuster rule.

And we urge all responsible citizens who care about democracy—public officials, journalists, educators, activists, ordinary citizens—to make the defense of democracy an urgent priority now.

Now is the time for leaders in all walks of life—for citizens of all political backgrounds and persuasions—to come to the aid of the Republic.

 

https://www.thebulwark.com/an-open-letter-in-defense-of-democracy/

 ^^^^Long list of signatories^^^^

That was a long, but well written, way of saying "Burn this Bitch Down!"

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2 hours ago, gptyk said:

Currently "Let's Go Brandon" is repeated endlessly at RW events.

I'm sorry, but what does that even mean.  Who's brandon??

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

   Jeff, you give those nimrods control of the election process and I'll shoot them on general principles. 

That's the biggest danger I see. The Rs are passing laws in many states that allow state legislators to cancel the results of an election. If that happens violence, the real deal, not just some bozos waving flags, becomes a real possibility. The leaders of these people, the common clay of the American West seems the politically correct way to address them at the moment, are spreading distrust in the election process itself. Without that we will settle things the old fashion way.    

Very true.

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12 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I'm sorry, but what does that even mean.  Who's brandon??

Some race car driver, was being interviewed and a chant started up Fuck Joe Biden.

guys name was branding, the interviewer, being quick on his feet said something like “hey, that’s cool, listen to em chant Let’s Go Brandon”

now it’s RWNJ meme-speak for “fuck Joe Biden”

The right are so nice congressmen are wearing Let’s go Brandon masks.

 

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GOP Lawmaker Wears 'Let's Go Brandon' Mask on House Floor in Barely Veiled Swipe at President Biden
 

South Carolina Republican Jeff Duncan is making headlines for a face mask worn this week on the floor of the House of Representatives — and emblazoned with "let's go Brandon," a seemingly benign phrase that serves as coded reference to profane criticism of President Joe Biden.

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18 minutes ago, Raz'r said:
GOP Lawmaker Wears 'Let's Go Brandon' Mask on House Floor in Barely Veiled Swipe at President Biden
 

South Carolina Republican Jeff Duncan is making headlines for a face mask worn this week on the floor of the House of Representatives — and emblazoned with "let's go Brandon," a seemingly benign phrase that serves as coded reference to profane criticism of President Joe Biden.

He deserves a punt to the googlies.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Some race car driver, was being interviewed and a chant started up Fuck Joe Biden.

guys name was branding, the interviewer, being quick on his feet said something like “hey, that’s cool, listen to em chant Let’s Go Brandon”

now it’s RWNJ meme-speak for “fuck Joe Biden”

The right are so nice congressmen are wearing Let’s go Brandon masks.

 

Brandon, not branding. Spellcheck….

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8 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

Lets see tell the guy that drives his F-XXX he;ll lose it, or his house and food for his family , see how long he'll fight for the rich? They'll wake up real quick when they realize the rich don't give a shit about them

I doubt it. Every time something is cut from this new big bill, it hurts poor folk. The guy with the big truck making 70k/year as a door hanger doesn't see himself as poor but he's def upper poor. And will remain so because he also has a boat, a big dog, two barbeques, and three babies that need new shoes. Point being he doesn't get the big picture and won't get it without it being explained to him by someone he trusts. And that's not any of us. The Rs around me will not tolerate any two-way discussion. 

They vote against their own best interests, completely unaware that the rich lump him in with the blacks, browns and newcomers of every stripe. In their minds it is as simple as whites v. everyone else. 

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1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

I doubt it. Every time something is cut from this new big bill, it hurts poor folk. The guy with the big truck making 70k/year as a door hanger doesn't see himself as poor but he's def upper poor. And will remain so because he also has a boat, a big dog, two barbeques, and three babies that need new shoes. Point being he doesn't get the big picture and won't get it without it being explained to him by someone he trusts. And that's not any of us. The Rs around me will not tolerate any two-way discussion. 

They vote against their own best interests, completely unaware that the rich lump him in with the blacks, browns and newcomers of every stripe. In their minds it is as simple as whites v. everyone else. 

That’s the intent,    Make sure any ‘benefits’ only go to certain people, as a source of continued division.   It worked for obamacare,   As long as the guy scrapping along thanks to a side gig or putting in massive unpaid overtime isn’t entitled, he can be trained to hate those that get some benefit, instead of the system.    The Dems would be wise to limit themselves to just a couple benefits but make sure virtually everybody benefits.    It worked for social security and Medicare.  

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2 minutes ago, Lark said:
1 hour ago, Blue Crab said:

... They vote against their own best interests, completely unaware that the rich lump him in with the blacks, browns and newcomers of every stripe. In their minds it is as simple as whites v. everyone else. 

That’s the intent,    Make sure any ‘benefits’ only go to certain people, as a source of continued division.   It worked for obamacare,   As long as the guy scrapping along thanks to a side gig or putting in massive unpaid overtime isn’t entitled, he can be trained to hate those that get some benefit, instead of the system.    

You're both trying to make a connection that isn't there. It's not about economics or self-interest at all.

Most people vote based on their feelings. Many people vote based on their impression that Candidate X will do a better job governing whatever office they are running for; Republicans vote for Republicans because 1- they feel brand loyalty, it's their church; and 2- because of their perception that their social order is under threat. Blacks are going to marry their daughters! Homos are going to marry their sons! Mexicans are going to take their jobs! Ay-rabs are going to take their gas-guzzler VEE-hickles! You can call it fearmongering (because it is) but the underlying motive is that they FEEL the social hierarchy is going all topsy-turvy.

At least, that's what I feel is happening.

- DSK

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5 minutes ago, Lark said:

 The Dems would be wise to limit themselves to just a couple benefits but make sure virtually everybody benefits.    It worked for social security and Medicare.

The stimulus checks might have filled that bill but what I hear is not thanks but when is the next check? 

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12 hours ago, Burning Man said:

WTF?  You are not a prof of a no name community college anymore and we are not your students that you can assign homework.  Fuck right off.

I was asking @Not for nothing to suggest readings for us . .  

I was not giving an assignment, though you could sure use some. 

Can't you read ??  

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I don't think it's an intellectual argument at all.  I think it's a fundamental lack of trust.  "You gave me 1000 but YOU make millions... ".   These aren't - and can't be solved - with facts in that way.  

Fact is I can't get by in West Virginia while in DC people make millions selling crackerbox condos.  Thats what they're passed about.  And true or not, that's what people believe.  Everyone else is doing better.  

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9 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

The stimulus checks might have filled that bill but what I hear is not thanks but when is the next check? 

The stimulus checks were a gigantic waste  of money 

a very bad policy 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/consumer-spending-personal-income-march-2021-11619732790

C9B83D8B-1DB9-4DB7-AB72-B089B4509F66.png

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20 hours ago, bridhb said:

When I lived aboard for 12 years, banging halyards and pumping masts were my "white noise" machine.  They put me right to sleep.  Now it is my dog snoring.

Banging halyards in a mooring field seem to sound like a symphony of wind chmes.  But when your next door neibor's halyards are banking, more like a gong show.

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

The stimulus checks were a gigantic waste  of money 

a very bad policy 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/consumer-spending-personal-income-march-2021-11619732790

C9B83D8B-1DB9-4DB7-AB72-B089B4509F66.png

Yeah, like "consumer spending" doesn't put money into corporate pockets.

You really are a zero-dimensional RWNJ shill, sluggo; there are Russian trollbots with more humanity and greater depth of comprehension

- DSK

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On 10/27/2021 at 9:32 AM, Not for nothing said:

Been watching all the doom/gloom  news , and talking heads for all the reasons we might be going to have one, 

what do the great what do the great minds of SA think?

Naw

no war 

but I do think that in the future the US will split into three 

coastal elites…. And regular folks

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14 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

coastal elites…. And regular folks

But it really doesn't break down geographically in that simplistic a fashion. Anywhere large cities create centers of educational prowess and healthcare excellence there are a preponderance of libruls. So its more a population density sorta thing.

And if red localities want to get rid of DemocRATS, they are getting rid of a sizable percentage of tax base and economic powers. Stop funding in-country army bases and a number of states start to lose major sources of income. Sure, food prices will climb and energy costs will be volatile, but red states depend greatly on blues & governmental spending just to keep the lights on and families healthy. 

Red states are horrifying their medical and educational experts, and  employers are having to consider local abortion laws when deciding where to set up shop. There's momentum in favor of the political right at the present, but shaky prospects for the future, especially since they've proven themselves incapable of creating responsible legislation. They are able to enforce social warfare laws, anti-voting rights legislation and stopping progressive laws, but bupkis in terms of creating legislation that helps citizens. Trump is gonna be in legal swampland for the foreseeable future, and demographics continue to paint the GOP into a corner. 

The midterms are pretty important to determine our nation's future. We have to get Republicans used to the idea that they have to come up with better ideas to win elections. Gaming the system and cheating the voters has to be shown to be the electoral fraud they are so enamored of whining has cost them elections, albeit without any evidence.

Once again, it seems that truth, democracy and the rule of law are the only things on the line.

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

But it really doesn't break down geographically in that simplistic a fashion. Anywhere large cities create centers of educational prowess and healthcare excellence there are a preponderance of libruls. So its more a population density sorta thing.

And if red localities want to get rid of DemocRATS, they are getting rid of a sizable percentage of tax base and economic powers. Stop funding in-country army bases and a number of states start to lose major sources of income. Sure, food prices will climb and energy costs will be volatile, but red states depend greatly on blues for governmental spending. 

Red states are horrifying their medical and educational experts, and  employers are having to consider local abortion laws when deciding where to set up shop. There's momentum in favor of the right at the present, but shaky prospects for the future. Trump is gonna be in legal swampland for the foreseeable future, and demographics continue to paint the GOP into a corner. 

The midterms are pretty important to determine our nation's future. 

All elections are pretty important. It's how we decide who sets policy, which is critical to how things run. Lately we've seen major candidates reject that notion in favor of the idea that a vote is BRAND, that there are no personal consequence for one's choices in voting, and that it's more important to signal brand loyalty, and cultural identity, with one's vote.

Trump is in legal jeopardy only insofar as he might end up in a courtroom with a non-RWNJ judge. The odds are against him, even with his own appointees... fortunately for our legal system.

The momentum I see in favor of the RWNJs is largely an artifact of their TREMENDOUS media influence. Hundreds of billions of dollars are being poured into shaping public opinion; just within a couple of weeks our local TV stations have started showing and advertising heavily RWNJ talk shows, of course they are being touted as "honest" and "for plain everyday folk" etc etc with guests like Senator Tom Cotton and Glenn Beck (one is advertising being "co-hosted" by Sean Hannity but apparently they just replay clips from his Fox editorial show).

- DSK

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14 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

I was a little surprised there was not more outright voter intimidation, violence against poll workers, etc etc, in the 2020 election. But they can do better this next time.

Or maybe not. Maybe 2020 is the high-water mark for fascism in Amerika. That'd be nice

- DSK

I think there was not more violence during the election because Trump and his supporters were confident they would win (remember,  Clinton was predicted to win, and she sort of did, by 3 million).  There was, and is, plenty of intimidation and threats of violence towards officials responsible for certifying the election, even "gasp" Republican officials that committed the crime of recognizing that Biden won a fair and honest election.  I fully expect 2022 and 2024 elections to be much different.  I would not be surprised if we see bombings or drive bys at predominately Democratic precincts.

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19 minutes ago, bridhb said:

I think there was not more violence during the election because Trump and his supporters were confident they would win (remember,  Clinton was predicted to win, and she sort of did, by 3 million).  There was, and is, plenty of intimidation and threats of violence towards officials responsible for certifying the election, even "gasp" Republican officials that committed the crime of recognizing that Biden won a fair and honest election.  I fully expect 2022 and 2024 elections to be much different.  I would not be surprised if we see bombings or drive bys at predominately Democratic precincts.

This.  The next chapter in the fall of the American empire will be much bloodier than the last.  Game of Thrones comes to mind.

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12 hours ago, Ishmael said:

He deserves a punt to the googlies.

Yes, but within the cult he's pandering to that's he's wearing a mask indicates he doesn't have those.  Deep Fail. 

 It may be a good omen. Awareness they must communicate in code is an internal acknowledgment that they are a cult.  

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8 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

I didn't really say that specifically....
What I said was it not representative of the country.

Which country? I think, you are not, a citizen, of the USA.

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

Yes, but within the cult he's pandering to that's he's wearing a mask indicates he doesn't have those.  Deep Fail. 

 It may be a good omen. Awareness they must communicate in code is an internal acknowledgment that they are a cult.  

Old white racists have been using code since before they switched to the GOP over the civil rights movement. 

 

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1 hour ago, Voyageur said:

So, NYC is not part of the USA? Got it.

I think it is fair to say that any part of the USA is in the USA but not representative of the USA.

There is no such that as a typical USA location anymore.

In the past it was state based differences.

Now it is wishful thinking vs reality differences. 

It has come down to the realization that being white is no longer a guarantee of getting what you want regardless of others, and that is the case in any state where non white is ascending demographically.

For some reason the rw thinks it's all because of borders, but in reality it is a foregone conclusion, from today's demographic.

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6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

The stimulus checks were a gigantic waste  of money 

a very bad policy 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/consumer-spending-personal-income-march-2021-11619732790

C9B83D8B-1DB9-4DB7-AB72-B089B4509F66.png

C9B83D8B-1DB9-4DB7-AB72-B089B4509F66.png

 

Take a closer look at the chart.  The ship was capsizing, we all knew was going down without some intervention.  Stimulus righted the ship.  It was the correct policy.

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The initial stimulus was needed.. the economy  was shut down 

It should have ended with the new year 

this unneeded stimulus polluted the  labour market and added unproductive debt 

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16 hours ago, Burning Man said:

Very true.

  Playing with real fire there, for sure. I don't think there are enough of these guys for putting them down to qualify as a civil war, but stolen elections were the last thing out of this guy's mouth before he asked "When do we get to use our guns?" 

 https://www.mediamatters.org/charlie-kirk/pushing-election-lies-tpusa-audience-member-asks-charlie-kirk-when-they-can-use-guns

 In most cases the question "Who are you going to shoot?" gives significant pause.  If they answer with something specific ya know it's getting real close to the fan. 

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16 hours ago, Raz'r said:
GOP Lawmaker Wears 'Let's Go Brandon' Mask on House Floor in Barely Veiled Swipe at President Biden
 

South Carolina Republican Jeff Duncan is making headlines for a face mask worn this week on the floor of the House of Representatives — and emblazoned with "let's go Brandon," a seemingly benign phrase that serves as coded reference to profane criticism of President Joe Biden.

Pretty soon Republican politicians (forced to wear masks by the evil thinky people) will be sporting corporate logos on their masks, just like NASSCAR. I can see Gym Jordan with a "DUKE ENERGY" mask.

 Lauren Boobert with "REMINGTON", and MTG with " WAL*MART".....:rolleyes:

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18 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The initial stimulus was needed.. the economy  was shut down 

It should have ended with the new year 

this unneeded stimulus polluted the  labour market and added unproductive debt 

I'll give you that point that it wasn't needed.  I feel the same.

Unproductive debt, yes but the 2018 boom-time-tax cuts were a much greater offense if you're keeping score.

The labor market point OTOH is in dispute since there were much larger influences like available child care and an abundance of contrary evidence.

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26 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The initial stimulus was needed.. the economy  was shut down 

It should have ended with the new year 

this unneeded stimulus polluted the  labour market and added unproductive debt 

when what we REALLY needed was another tax cut for the wealthy

- DSK

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11 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I doubt it. Every time something is cut from this new big bill, it hurts poor folk. The guy with the big truck making 70k/year as a door hanger doesn't see himself as poor but he's def upper poor. And will remain so because he also has a boat, a big dog, two barbeques, and three babies that need new shoes. Point being he doesn't get the big picture and won't get it without it being explained to him by someone he trusts. And that's not any of us. The Rs around me will not tolerate any two-way discussion. 

They vote against their own best interests, completely unaware that the rich lump him in with the blacks, browns and newcomers of every stripe. In their minds it is as simple as whites v. everyone else. 

This one cartoon explains everything fully.

Dan Roy on Twitter: "Careful mate... that foreigner wants your cookie!  #StandUpToRacism… "

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