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Heavier displacement = safer in storms?


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3 minutes ago, toddster said:

As someone who has lived with wood heat for sixty years, I offer a couple of concepts for the uninitiated.

Seasoning.  A few soggy branches off the beach might make a decent fire - next year after being stored under cover for a summer.  

Mass.  Once a fire is going, you need large-diameter chunks of some massive high-BTU species like oak to keep the thing going.  Unless you stand there all day feeding in twigs which last for approximately twenty seconds.  I never could work out how that would work with those little Force 10 units they sell.  One actually came with my boat and I traded it in ASAP on a propane furnace.  Maybe lumps of coal would actually work - IDK.  

I actually put in a solid month of work each year to heat my house through the winter, (and manage the wood lot) and I am ready to put that behind me.  But *sigh* that’s what’s on tap for today.

I burn about a cord a year in my home. I fill one trash can (about 40 gallon trash can, I guess) with ash per year. So there is that, also. I am not sure how cool it would be nowadays to dump ash overboard. Shouldn't do any environmental damage but you never know what people might think of it.

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It is sad, nay, pathetic, to see the SA nattering nabobs of negativity attempt to quash the adventuring spirit of this young Slocum with their so-called "conventional wisdom."  As the OP has demonstra

I've been following along until now but with the epropulsion and lithium in the bilge turn, I'm out.  You're either a troll or one of those people who ask for advice only to argue about why you s

You guys are getting soft. New guy with zero prior posts starts a thread saying he's boat shopping to sail from the UK to Patagonia. No one thinks this is a troll? 

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6 hours ago, ysignal said:

I could even make my own charcoal if I needed to. All you need is a fire and a biscuit tin.

Thread drift. Henry Ford invented and marketed Kingsford charcoal while on a weekend camping trip with his friend Kingsford, when he realized that he could reuse all the leftover wood from his automotive manufacturing facilities and sell it as charcoal instead of dumping or burning it off. He put it in bags and sold it under the Kingsford brand in honor of his friend. 
 

Now back to trollfest.

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3 minutes ago, mckenzie.keith said:

I burn about a cord a year in my home. I fill one trash can (about 40 gallon trash can, I guess) with ash per year. So there is that, also. I am not sure how cool it would be nowadays to dump ash overboard. Shouldn't do any environmental damage but you never know what people might think of it.

I’m in for about three cords.  Sometimes I get on a roll and cut five cords or so (depends on orchard pruning) then have an easy following year - or you can sell the excess on Craigslist.  Say… there’s a moneymaking scheme for our itinerant world travelers!  Better add to manifest a bicycle with trailer to deliver the stuff. 

Ash:  You can’t just dump it. It aerosolizes and goes everywhere, no matter what the wind is doing.  Gotta take it at least twenty yards from the house.  I put it on the compost pile where it mixes with greenhouse waste. And whatever I’m wearing.

Also: Wood inside = bugs inside.

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15 hours ago, toddster said:

I smell a whiff of Performance Art…

I smell Instagram.  Thus Patagonia and not Jan Mayen.  I mean, who the heck has ever heard of that place?  Patagonia, well, it's on all the tshirts.

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24 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

But Ysignal won't be able to fit all that wood into a Vega, which is why they will have to tow a log shed.   So the bugs will be in the shed.

I thought we agreed it’s a low displacement barge..

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1 hour ago, toddster said:

As someone who has lived with wood heat for sixty years, I offer a couple of concepts for the uninitiated.

Seasoning.  A few soggy branches off the beach might make a decent fire - next year after being stored under cover for a summer.  

Mass.  Once a fire is going, you need large-diameter chunks of some massive high-BTU species like oak to keep the thing going.  Unless you stand there all day feeding in twigs which last for approximately twenty seconds.  I never could work out how that would work with those little Force 10 units they sell.  One actually came with my boat and I traded it in ASAP on a propane furnace.  Maybe lumps of coal would actually work - IDK.  

I actually put in a solid month of work each year to heat my house through the winter, (and manage the wood lot) and I am ready to put that behind me.  But *sigh* that’s what’s on tap for today.

My parents burned about 5 cords a year. Stacking it (forget splitting it) is so much fun.  It heats you three times, right? 

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3 hours ago, ysignal said:

What about if you got a steel box with a door on the front and put it directly above the heater and connected it with a shot section of chimney pipe and then had the chimney coming out of that box and up out of the boat? The box section would be wide enough that there'd be enough space for the air to flow even with something inside it. It would be too hot to be a very good smoker but it could maybe work as a sort of half smoker half oven and be good for adding a bit of smoky flavour to fish and meats.

You might have something there.

Maybe skip the solid fuel stove all together and just mount one of these Italian pizza ovens in the saloon. Then simply extend the smoke stack through the house top. 

They can burn wood pellets (pellets would stow nicely in the bilge), or wood.

They throw a lot of heat as you cook. Smoking is out, they're full throttle or nothing. 

1230755697_Uunifiring.thumb.jpg.ac0b4e0f5c01ac4b3cd23f1923228ecd.jpg

 

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18 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

You might have something there.

Maybe skip the solid fuel stove all together and just mount one of these Italian pizza ovens in the saloon. Then simply extend the smoke stack through the house top. 

They can burn wood pellets (pellets would stow nicely in the bilge), or wood.

They throw a lot of heat as you cook. Smoking is out, they're full throttle or nothing. 

1230755697_Uunifiring.thumb.jpg.ac0b4e0f5c01ac4b3cd23f1923228ecd.jpg

 

I thought that was a bong backfiring

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1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

You could toss some desiccant packs down there to control humidity.

lol. I mean, how hard could it be to keep the bilges dry anyway. 

still, Ushuaia, what's not like?

original.jpg

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39 minutes ago, Teener said:

I can't believe that I got something of value out of this thread.
That thing looks like a silver bullet.  Sold.

Any of your early adopters out there have experience with this thing?

I recently sold my boat equipped with the 2005 version. I'd buy another.

The good: They are quite efficient, a little bit of fuel goes a long way. The burner is under one side so that side is hotter, it's a simple system that works.

Less good: Patience is required as it takes a while to heat and does not cool immediately. They are very fussy about having enough voltage, slightly corroded electrical connections aren't okay.

I did find NO-OX-ID (conductive grease) works better than dielectric grease for maintaining good electrical connectivity. I suggest some in every Wallas cooktop owners kit. The new ones likely aren't quite as fussy as the one I had. 

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

What kind of Visa will you use for you adventure in Chile 

image.png.997ac1bfb3e9b4e6c9123814d0095f14.png

Cause it's better being Platinum.

I think Britain is the only place I've seen where you can still buy bags of coal for heating. The rest of the world seems to have moved on from that.

 

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tbh - my comment a bit tongue-in-cheek. iow - can't look at that photo without examining the water. wondering about wind speed. wondering about typical wind speed. wondering how wind would get funneled through those canyons. gads. think I might like a rather long, heavy boat, with a very strong engine..

also. don't forget to bring along a few strong ropes. lol.

here's another..puerto-wlliams-beagle-channel-tierra-del

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3 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Local guy on a live aboard boat does that where I am.  I actually love it.  Canada rocks - fuckers on shore can’t own below the high tide line (or whatever it’s exactly called - high high tide?), so he’s free to chainsaw wood for the wood stove (unlike in ‘murca where waterfront property owners own the friggin beach).

Not in Maryland, you own to the tide line just like Canadia ;)

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12 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not in Maryland, you own to the tide line just like Canadia ;)

Most states. There are a few like Massachusetts and Maine that have old laws. Several states even have declared the entire beach to be public. Positively communistic!

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

-Most states. There are a few like Massachusetts and Maine that have old laws. Several states even have declared the entire beach to be public. Positively communistic!

The situation in the UK is interesting.  The zone between High Water Springs (HWS) and Low Water Springs (LWS) is not owned by the landowner ... but nor is it public.

In the UK, about 55% of the Intertidal zone, or foreshore, is owned by the Crown Estate, a weird feudal hangover which is neither government property nor part of the monarch's private estate; it is theoretically under the control of the monarch, but in practice it isn't.  The rest of the foreshore is owned by other feudal relics.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate and https://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/ 

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Most states. There are a few like Massachusetts and Maine that have old laws. Several states even have declared the entire beach to be public. Positively communistic!

Must be in Washington state that foreshore is privately owned (or at least was until recently?).  The “Waggoner” guide to the BC coast/Alaska (published in Washington state, and which seems to be written for powerboaters) makes talks about shore ties in BC (in at least one place in the guide book)  - but says (summarizing) “don’t tie to anything ashore because it’s private beach/foreshore”.  But maybe the communists have had their way and changed the laws in Washington, or maybe it’s long been like that?  Dunno.

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Must be in Washington state that foreshore is privately owned (or at least was until recently?).  The “Waggoner” guide to the BC coast/Alaska (published in Washington state, and which seems to be written for powerboaters) makes talks about shore ties in BC (in at least one place in the guide book)  - but says (summarizing) “don’t tie to anything ashore because it’s private beach/foreshore”.  But maybe the communists have had their way and changed the laws in Washington, or maybe it’s long been like that?  Dunno.

Washington state is a bit of a muddle. 

" Washington allows for private ownership of lands down to the low water mark. This is a holdover from the early days of the state, when loggers and shellfish farmers were allowed to purchase tidelands from the government. While the state no longer permits people to purchase tidelands, many areas of the beach have been passed down through generations and remain private property. Additionally, beachfront property owners are allowed to build private piers and other structures on public beaches."

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All kidding aside, and assuming you are not winding everyone up, I think you SHOULD buy a boat, and you SHOULD set off for Patagonia. BUT, I think you should try to limit the scope of new and non-proven things you try to do as a form of risk reduction to make sure the trip comes off OK. Solid fuel heating does not seem practical because of energy density. Same for battery power. Diesel heaters should be able to run OK on kerosene also. You should be able to find kerosene and/or diesel in a pretty wide variety of places. That rules out smoking fish for the time being. You can try that on your next voyage once you have all the other bugs worked out.

Outboard is not practical if you might have to motor in steep seas (which, realistically, you probably will have to do at some point). The reason is that the prop will come out of the water too frequently once you are in steep seas (even if they are not huge southern ocean rollers). Maybe you could make it work with a very long shaft outboard mounted so that the prop shaft is far below the waterline. But then you still have all the problems associated with exposure to cold. Also you will likely have to carry more gasoline than you would diesel, so you may not even save weight compared to a diesel of similar power, once the fuel weight is factored in.

Your best bet is going to be to buy a boat as close to squared away as possible so that your refit efforts will be manageable. This advice is easy to give but for some of us it is hard to take. Myself included.

Try to find a boat with moderate displacement to length (D/L) and moderate sail area to displacement (SA/D) ratios. If you don't have enough sail area you will be forced to motor more often when wind is light. If your displacement is very heavy compared to length, you won't have any hope of surfing down the face of a large wave (which, despite the fact that it is scary, is preferable to NOT surfing down the face of a big wave).

Anyway, good luck. If you do buy a boat and go sailing, consider that to be success. If you change your mind before you get to Patagonia, it is still a success because you bought a boat and you went out there. Many people dream of sailing off somewhere. The majority never even buy a boat. If you do get to Patagonia that is even better. I have never been there but the pictures look nice.

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A few days late and a cupla dollars short, sigh.

Patagonia is 'cruised' in small boats, getting there is the hard bit.

I think this is a Dufour? He had crew when this photo was take at Isla Chair but they ran away soon afterwards.

Major issue is autonomy, count on two months without resupply between Williams and Montt.

Count on doing a lot of motoring

Don't make a side trip to the Falklands - I say that for a number of reasons.

Boats normally come down the Atlantic side as a bit of a group towards the end of the year.

Best time for going up the channels is winter. Its cold, calm and clear - most of the time  -- Dress warm --- Summer is windy (NWlys) and wet.

Barter for fish and centolla - eat fresh. Salmon is poor man's fish

It is possible to do a visa run from Tortel into Argentina... said to be an adventure in its own right.

Some of my stuff  here

https://www.docdroid.net/bO63FbL/20202-chilean-anchorages-pdf

and also here

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile

 

 

DSC_0115.jpg

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1 hour ago, mckenzie.keith said:

Your best bet is going to be to buy a boat as close to squared away as possible so that your refit efforts will be manageable. This advice is easy to give but for some of us it is hard to take. Myself included.

This is good advice in principle, but in practice it may be hard to achieve in this size and budget.  Most boats under 30feet are set up for light coastal use in summer: they have light-duty fittings, light duty structures, poor watertightness, no insulation, no heater, no windvane, flimsy anchoring systems, limited stowage, and a layout optimised for crewed coastal use.  Those which have been adapted may be fairly tired after long voyages stressing them to the limits.

Many such boats can be adapted to more adventurous use, with varying degrees of pain and expense, but they are rare.  There is a much better chance of finding a suitably modified boat in a bigger size, such as a Nich31/32/35 or even a Contessa32/Sadler32/WesterlyFulmar/WesterlyDiscus/Moody33.

There may also be good value in lesser-known designs.  For example the Achilles 28 and Achilles 30 are very built but have mediocre finish, so they tend to be good value.  Similarly the Ruffian 28.

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13 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The situation in the UK is interesting.  The zone between High Water Springs (HWS) and Low Water Springs (LWS) is not owned by the landowner ... but nor is it public.

In the UK, about 55% of the Intertidal zone, or foreshore, is owned by the Crown Estate, a weird feudal hangover which is neither government property nor part of the monarch's private estate; it is theoretically under the control of the monarch, but in practice it isn't.  The rest of the foreshore is owned by other feudal relics.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate and https://www.thecrownestate.co.uk/ 

for an authoritative American reference, see Dick, Moby. Chapter 90, Heads or Tails. 

“But the duke had nothing to do with taking this fish?”

“It is his.”

9 hours ago, mckenzie.keith said:

..Anyway, good luck. If you do buy a boat and go sailing, consider that to be success. If you change your mind before you get to Patagonia, it is still a success because you bought a boat and you went out there. Many people dream of sailing off somewhere. The majority never even buy a boat. If you do get to Patagonia that is even better. I have never been there but the pictures look nice.

gee. if only there were a well traveled, relatively mild, sea-route via tropical paradise on the way to Japan. hmmm.

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7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Many such boats can be adapted to more adventurous use, with varying degrees of pain and expense, but they are rare.  There is a much better chance of finding a suitably modified boat in a bigger size, such as a Nich31/32/35 or even a Contessa32/Sadler32/WesterlyFulmar/WesterlyDiscus/Moody33.

There may also be good value in lesser-known designs.  For example the Achilles 28 and Achilles 30 are very built but have mediocre finish, so they tend to be good value.  Similarly the Ruffian 28.

Arpege 29.  Nearby “neighbours” the Gooch’s, Tony and Corinne (I think), sailed theirs all over the world, from Cape Horn, the Aleutians and Baltic Sea, before upgrading to the much larger and complex aluminum-hulled Taonui (for a singlehanded nonstop RTW):  http://www.taonui.com/cruising_in_taonui.html

https://www.victoriaharbourhistory.com/harbour-stories/mariners/tony-gooch/

(Her engine was removed by the next owner, who cruised to more sunny Pacific climes:  https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/cruising-life/pacific-cruising-without-engine-65603 )

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Elegua said:

Washington state is a bit of a muddle. 

" Washington allows for private ownership of lands down to the low water mark. This is a holdover from the early days of the state, when loggers and shellfish farmers were allowed to purchase tidelands from the government. While the state no longer permits people to purchase tidelands, many areas of the beach have been passed down through generations and remain private property. Additionally, beachfront property owners are allowed to build private piers and other structures on public beaches."

As far as I understand it, that only applies to bays, sounds, and other inland waters. The coast here (WA) is public highway like Oregon with the exception of various protected areas. Long beach peninsula for example:

beachdriving-map1.png

 

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5 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Arpege 29.  Nearby “neighbours” the Gooch’s, Tony and Corinne (I think), sailed theirs all over the world, from Cape Horn, the Aleutians and Baltic Sea, before upgrading to the much larger and complex aluminum-hulled Taonui (for a singlehanded nonstop RTW):  http://www.taonui.com/cruising_in_taonui.html

https://www.victoriaharbourhistory.com/harbour-stories/mariners/tony-gooch/

(Her engine was removed by the next owner, who cruised to more sunny Pacific climes:  https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/cruising-life/pacific-cruising-without-engine-65603 )

 

 

 

Has anybody mentioned Vancouver 28? That was in my short list at one time but I couldn’t find one nearby. Ended up with a Cape Dory project which was not dissimilar.

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2 hours ago, KillickThere said:

Has anybody mentioned Vancouver 28? That was in my short list at one time but I couldn’t find one nearby. Ended up with a Cape Dory project which was not dissimilar.

Discussion on page 2.

And it's a 27 - possibly why you never found one? ;)

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Discussion on page 2.

And it's a 27 - possibly why you never found one? ;)

 

17 hours ago, Cisco said:

A few days late and a cupla dollars short, sigh.

Patagonia is 'cruised' in small boats, getting there is the hard bit.

I think this is a Dufour? He had crew when this photo was take at Isla Chair but they ran away soon afterwards.

Major issue is autonomy, count on two months without resupply between Williams and Montt.

Count on doing a lot of motoring

Don't make a side trip to the Falklands - I say that for a number of reasons.

Boats normally come down the Atlantic side as a bit of a group towards the end of the year.

Best time for going up the channels is winter. Its cold, calm and clear - most of the time  -- Dress warm --- Summer is windy (NWlys) and wet.

Barter for fish and centolla - eat fresh. Salmon is poor man's fish

It is possible to do a visa run from Tortel into Argentina... said to be an adventure in its own right.

Some of my stuff  here

https://www.docdroid.net/bO63FbL/20202-chilean-anchorages-pdf

and also here

http://www.cruiserswiki.org/wiki/Chile

 

 

DSC_0115.jpg

Oh I already found your doc about the anchorages and read your account of tying the boat up. I was thinking how I'd manage it on my own.

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1 hour ago, ysignal said:

 

Oh I already found your doc about the anchorages and read your account of tying the boat up. I was thinking how I'd manage it on my own.

This is/was ( lost a few years later near Tristan da Cunha) a sistership to mine. 39 foot, was single handed from Williams to Montt and back again in 2005/2007. Just a case of organisation. .

NB flake a goodly length of your shore line down in your dinghy and pay it out from the dinghy as you row ashore. Otherwise you risk it over-running and jamming on the reel.

100_1397.jpg

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It's interesting that some see salmon as a "poor man's fish". In the UK it isn't seen like that. Salmon and trout are regarded as game fish and fishing for them is usually fly only. Fly fishing is the branch of fishing that has been practiced by the upper class. Non salmonid fish are referred to as coarse fish and have traditionally been fished for by everyone else. 

From what I gather, and correct me if I'm wrong, a similar difference exists with venison. In the UK only the landed gentry can hunt dear. Similarly with pheasants, grouse and other game. Whereas in the US venison can be hunted by anyone and isn't at all associated with higher social status.

Personally I'm not a fan of this at all and love fishing for trout with my plastic lures. They fight like crazy and occasionally you even get aerial acrobatics. But places I know where I can do that have to be a secret.

But those Patagonian salmon. That's like the best trout I ever caught x100. I particularly want to catch one of those.

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On 11/4/2021 at 11:46 AM, TwoLegged said:

But Ysignal won't be able to fit all that wood into a Vega, which is why they will have to tow a log shed.   So the bugs will be in the shed.

Yes, but you have to bring in a couple of arm loads for the night.  Wasps who had settled down under the bark for a long winter nap and didn’t expect to wake up until May suddenly find themselves abuzz in your living room. :huh:

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I'm always willing to learn something new--

https://globalflyfisher.com/fish-better/patagonian-salmonids

I've never heard anyone sea or river fishing for salmon in the south.

My experience with salmon in Chile is only of the farmed variety  - thus poor people's fish.

I notice that link refers to the escape of farmed salmon in Seno Aysen at the time of the 'Tsunami' event in 2007. I was at ground zero for that - it was 'interesting'.

Trout? Now that is a different matter.

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2 hours ago, ysignal said:

It's interesting that some see salmon as a "poor man's fish". In the UK it isn't seen like that. Salmon and trout are regarded as game fish and fishing for them is usually fly only. Fly fishing is the branch of fishing that has been practiced by the upper class. Non salmonid fish are referred to as coarse fish and have traditionally been fished for by everyone else. 

There is of course the possibility that the entire world may not actually be built around the unstated but rigid social stratifications of the British class system.    Bizarre notion, of course, but theoretically possible

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9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

There is of course the possibility that the entire world may not actually be built around the unstated but rigid social stratifications of the British class system.    Bizarre notion, of course, but theoretically possible

I thought the "Landed gentry" owning all the land and fishing rivers in the UK had been pretty well death taxed out of existence.

My wife is currently hooked on Downton Abbey - what an incredibly fucked up social order that was. Hog all the money in the country then do nothing but sit around polishing social manners to a microscopic level. Changing clothes 5 times a day. :rolleyes:

And the serfs were grateful for the work supporting it because they'd go hungry otherwise.

 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

I thought the "Landed gentry" owning all the land and fishing rivers in the UK had been pretty well death taxed out of existence.

My wife is currently hooked on Downton Abbey - what an incredibly fucked up social order that was. Hog all the money in the country then do nothing but sit around polishing social manners to a microscopic level. Changing clothes 5 times a day. :rolleyes:

And the serfs were grateful for the work supporting it because they'd go hungry otherwise.

 

With fishing, even where it's not owned by the gentry there's sort of a cultural hangover from it. My local reservoir for example is a rainbow trout fishery and is fly only. Whenever a trout fishery opens to other methods this is met by a chorus of complaints from fly fishermen.

For Dartmoor on the other hand one must apply for a permit from the Duchy of Cornwall, and it's strictly all fly only.

I started fishing in Japan and got a bit of a culture shock upon returning the UK and expecting to be able to fish like normal. Most people who started fishing in the UK seem to support its division into game and coarse and there's a good deal of friction between them and immigrant anglers.

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On 11/4/2021 at 4:05 PM, Zonker said:

image.png.997ac1bfb3e9b4e6c9123814d0095f14.png

Cause it's better being Platinum.

I think Britain is the only place I've seen where you can still buy bags of coal for heating. The rest of the world seems to have moved on from that.

 

I went to a mining and engineering college in New Mexico. For heat we would drive to an abandoned lignite mine and fill a truck bed with lignite. Didn't take long to get enough for the winter. Burn it in a pot-bellied wood stove. More heat with less smoke than wood. Soooo much easier than cutting wood.

I'm amused by all the folks here burning wood for heat. I guess local air quality is overrated. 

 

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I thought the "Landed gentry" owning all the land and fishing rivers in the UK had been pretty well death taxed out of existence.

Sloop, it is a long tine since inheritance tax hurt that mob.  After a few decades of getting hammered in the mid-20th-century, the inbred toffs hired tax lawyers who figured out how to avoid such taxes.  This is done by trusts and/or offshore holding companies in the British tax havens (formerly Guernsey and Jersey, now Bermuda or the Cayman islands), which are used in various was to almost entirely avoid inheritance tax. 

Take for example Hugh Richard Louis Grosvenor, 7th Duke of Westminster (who is also Marquess of Westminster, Earl Grosvenor, Viscount Belgrave, and Baron Grosvenor).  In 2016, aged 25, he inherited the Dukedom and vast estates worth then about £9billion: various country estates, plus a huge chunk of the west end of London, plus significant overseas holdings.

However, this vast wealth is nearly all held in trusts of which the said Hugh Richard Louis is the beneficial owner but not the legal owner, so no inheritance tax was payable on most of the estate.  See https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/aug/11/inheritance-tax-why-the-new-duke-of-westminster-will-not-pay-billions

The situation is even worse in Scotland.  Over half of Scotland is owned as vast estates by just 500 people, few of whom are actually Scots.  That's why the Scottish Highlands are empty: these landlords chucked the people out in the early 19th century, and still block further development, preferring to maintain the land as a sort of desert (they burn off vegetation) which they use as grouse-shooting estates.   This creates a few jobs for gamekeepers etc, but that's a tiny fraction of the number of people who could be supported if the land was used productively or if villages could expand

Similar problems exist to a somewhat lesser extent in the Scottish Borders, where landlords such as the Duke of Buccleuch control vast swathes of land and villages.  Much of this feudal nightmare has been documented over the last few decades by Andy Wightman.

Meanwhile, the middle classes do pay inheritance tax.  Trusts and tax lawyers are disproportionately expensive for them, so they pay 40% of of everything over £325,000.   Take the example of someone I know, who in the early 1990s was earning a bit more than a school headmaster, and bought on a big mortgage a 4-bed terraced house in South London.  That house has grown in value about 15-fold since then, so if pal dies tomorrow then the inheritance tax bill will be about £700,000.  The really rich don't have to pay.

3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

My wife is currently hooked on Downton Abbey - what an incredibly fucked up social order that was. Hog all the money in the country then do nothing but sit around polishing social manners to a microscopic level. Changing clothes 5 times a day. :rolleyes:

And the serfs were grateful for the work supporting it because they'd go hungry otherwise.

The toffs have moderated their accents, and their lives are now busy managing their lawyers and accountants.  They now prefer to drive around in their Land Rovers wearing expensive outdoor clothing, instead of playing parlour games. 

But the essential parasitism is unchanged.  The serfs (farm workers, gamekeepers etc) still depend on Lord Snooty for their income, but most of them are casualised as contractors.  The village and cottages they used to live in have now been tarted up for the middle classes, and the workers now commute 20 miles to work from concrete former council houses which are now owned by investors and rented out at 4 times the council rent, with no security of tenure.

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2 hours ago, ysignal said:

For Dartmoor on the other hand one must apply for a permit from the Duchy of Cornwall, and it's strictly all fly only.

That is Chuck Windsor's Duchy.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

This idiot perfectly illustrates that mentality in modern times.

Absolutely abysmal': Critics rip apart Jacob Rees-Mogg's new book

Sloop, the interesting thing about Jacob Rees Mogg (aka "the Honourable Member for the 18th century") is that he is a fake toff.   Top hat and the rest of the act of a parody toff, but not actually a toff.

His parents were upper middle-class: his father was a journalist who became a newspaper editor and establishment functionary and got a life peerage.  So no hereditary title or significant inherited wealth.

Young Jacob made lots of money by playing money games in the City of London, and married into the edge of the aristos: his wife's grandfather was the vert very wealthy 7th Earl Fitzwilliam.   But the real aristos would look down on him, since he has neither landed estate nor title.

Ali G did over Mogg brilliantly:

 

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Sloop, the interesting thing about Jacob Rees Mogg (aka "the Honourable Member for the 18th century") is that he is a fake toff.   Top hat and the rest of the act of a parody toff, but not actually a toff.

His parents were upper middle-class: his father was a journalist who became a newspaper editor and establishment functionary and got a life peerage.  So no hereditary title or significant inherited wealth.

Young Jacob made lots of money by playing money games in the City of London, and married into the edge of the aristos: his wife's grandfather was the vert very wealthy 7th Earl Fitzwilliam.   But the real aristos would look down on him, since he has neither landed estate nor title.

Ali G did over Mogg brilliantly:

 

He looks like a right knob.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Sloop, the interesting thing about Jacob Rees Mogg (aka "the Honourable Member for the 18th century") is that he is a fake toff.   Top hat and the rest of the act of a parody toff, but not actually a toff.

His parents were upper middle-class: his father was a journalist who became a newspaper editor and establishment functionary and got a life peerage.  So no hereditary title or significant inherited wealth.

Young Jacob made lots of money by playing money games in the City of London, and married into the edge of the aristos: his wife's grandfather was the vert very wealthy 7th Earl Fitzwilliam.   But the real aristos would look down on him, since he has neither landed estate nor title.

Ali G did over Mogg brilliantly:

 

A climber in other words.

He certainly has the UC mumble down.

See if you can find the prank that was played on Johnny Carson by some brilliant Brits who could mumble gibberish in a very UC accented way - they totally took him in.

Edit: Found it.

 

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14 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Meanwhile, the middle classes do pay inheritance tax.  Trusts and tax lawyers are disproportionately expensive for them, so they pay 40% of of everything over £325,000.   

Not quite true. What you mean is that those of the middle class who don't trust their children to look after them in old age pay lots of inheritance tax. 

It's easy for anyone to put their savings and belongings into a trust, with your children as trustees. Avoids inheritance tax. You just have to trust your children to give you money from the trust to live on until you die. Many people don't seem to trust their children that much. 

My parents have done this, and I will when my kids become adults. Easy and cheap to do, just requires that you bring your children up right!

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19 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I thought the "Landed gentry" owning all the land and fishing rivers in the UK had been pretty well death taxed out of existence.

My wife is currently hooked on Downton Abbey - what an incredibly fucked up social order that was. Hog all the money in the country then do nothing but sit around polishing social manners to a microscopic level. Changing clothes 5 times a day. :rolleyes:

And the serfs were grateful for the work supporting it because they'd go hungry otherwise.

 

But an incredibly well done show. The cast are outstanding.

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5 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

But an incredibly well done show. The cast are outstanding.

Indeed - very similar to Upstairs/Downstairs both in content and quality.

I find it too infuriating to watch much of it. :D

Shirley MacLaine's role was fun - she really put the pompous asses in their place.

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On 11/4/2021 at 2:49 PM, Teener said:

I can't believe that I got something of value out of this thread.
That thing looks like a silver bullet.  Sold.

Any of your early adopters out there have experience with this thing?

At over $3000, it makes a Webasto look cheap.

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52 minutes ago, low bum said:

At over $3000, it makes a Webasto look cheap.

Webasto ain't cheap. The parts for the forced hot air system I installed in my boat this summer were about $5k.

It was worth every penny to be able to roll out of bed at 0530 and flick the thermostat on before heading back for another half-hour of snooze.

By the time I got up, the main cabin would be around 70F. I bit cooler on the lower deck, but still a real blessing.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

Webasto ain't cheap. The parts for the forced hot air system I installed in my boat this summer were about $5k.

It was worth every penny to be able to roll out of bed at 0530 and flick the thermostat on before heading back for another half-hour of snooze.

By the time I got up, the main cabin would be around 70F. I bit cooler on the lower deck, but still a real blessing.

For a few pennies more, you could have got a thermostat with a timer.  That way you wouldn't have to get out of bed when it is still cold

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6 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

For a few pennies more, you could have got a thermostat with a timer.  That way you wouldn't have to get out of bed when it is still cold

I have a programmable thermostat. I just don't use it that way.

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On 11/6/2021 at 6:46 AM, Pertsa said:

I can promise that cheap budget & Made in Finland wont mix :ph34r:

I remember researching them a while back, mainly on account of how convenient having only one liquid fuel on the boat would be. Ran across an older manual that claimed the 85DP was intended for recreational use only, and not liveaboard (in other words, not using it often). Also found a tear down video that claimed Wallas was not building them to be easily serviced in the field, hence their recommendation to ship it back to the "nearest Wallas repair shop."

Granted, the current manual omits the liveaboard clause, but it screams they're gonna catch me coming and going. If it's on my boat, it'd better be reasonably repairable, or reasonably replaceable. That diesel stove is neither.

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On 11/6/2021 at 12:06 AM, Cisco said:

I'm always willing to learn something new--

https://globalflyfisher.com/fish-better/patagonian-salmonids

I've never heard anyone sea or river fishing for salmon in the south.

My experience with salmon in Chile is only of the farmed variety  - thus poor people's fish.

I notice that link refers to the escape of farmed salmon in Seno Aysen at the time of the 'Tsunami' event in 2007. I was at ground zero for that - it was 'interesting'.

Trout? Now that is a different matter.

It seems like a lifetime ago, but I spent a couple of season flyfishing in Patagonia and Chile for those eager trout and escaped farmed Salmon in the early 90's. I was cool at the time but it feels much like fly fishing in NZ for introduced fish that displaced the native species for the great white hunters amusement(me).

Still, it bloody fun going deep into your backing with fish that just hadn't seen many flies in their lives. I'm sure thats all changed now as there's probably utube channels with patrion supported fisherpersons and a plague spriter vans.

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11 minutes ago, rustylaru said:

It seems like a lifetime ago, but I spent a couple of season flyfishing in Patagonia and Chile for those eager trout and escaped farmed Salmon in the early 90's. I was cool at the time but it feels much like fly fishing in NZ for introduced fish that displaced the native species for the great white hunters amusement(me).

Still, it bloody fun going deep into your backing with fish that just hadn't seen many flies in their lives. I'm sure thats all changed now as there's probably utube channels with patrion supported fisherpersons and a plague spriter vans.

I also want to fish in NZ. Also a stunning place with great fishing. I figure what's done is done in terms of the introduction of invasive fish. Now fishing for them and removing them is helping the situation. 

Tight lines.

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3 minutes ago, ysignal said:

I also want to fish in NZ. Also a stunning place with great fishing. I figure what's done is done in terms of the introduction of invasive fish. Now fishing for them and removing them is helping the situation. 

Tight lines.

Is fly fishing in NZ still a thing? Last I talked with my brother about it, he said rock snott had kinda killed of all the bug life and sucked the o2 out of the water. It sure was difficult to have all you gear sterilized between rivers so as not to transfer invasive species.

Fuck it. You should just sail the northwest passage in a SanJuan 24 and fish Alaska. YMMV

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8 minutes ago, rustylaru said:

Is fly fishing in NZ still a thing? Last I talked with my brother about it, he said rock snott had kinda killed of all the bug life and sucked the o2 out of the water. It sure was difficult to have all you gear sterilized between rivers so as not to transfer invasive species.

Fuck it. You should just sail the northwest passage in a SanJuan 24 and fish Alaska. YMMV

From what I gather it was until recently still a thing. But I'm not up to date with new developments. Lure fishing for trout is a thing there also. Tasmanian devils are popular in both NZ and Australia for trout. Personally I'm a big fan of the Rebel Crawfish. There's a plague of invasive American crayfish in the UK so I figured it makes sense to use American crayfish lures and they do indeed work like a charm. The stream green teeny wee is my favourite. Can't buy them here though.

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9 hours ago, The Lucky One said:

I remember researching them a while back, mainly on account of how convenient having only one liquid fuel on the boat would be. Ran across an older manual that claimed the 85DP was intended for recreational use only, and not liveaboard (in other words, not using it often). Also found a tear down video that claimed Wallas was not building them to be easily serviced in the field, hence their recommendation to ship it back to the "nearest Wallas repair shop."

Granted, the current manual omits the liveaboard clause, but it screams they're gonna catch me coming and going. If it's on my boat, it'd better be reasonably repairable, or reasonably replaceable. That diesel stove is neither.

You can get a Sig 100 that burns diesel and kerosene both for $700.  

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Just install one of these and leave it idling like the fishboats do around here.

One fuel, one machine and fits nicely in a small sailboat if you substitute it for your ballast.

Dickinson 00-ADR Diesel Cook Stove / Heater for 40 to 50 Foot Vessels

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Espar/Webasto forced air diesel heater clones from China are all over Fleabay for about 10% of what the real thing costs. From what I have read they are actually pretty decent as long as you buy a real Espar exhaust pipe, apparently the Chinese versions suck.

As a retrofit in an existing boat, a lot of the cost of a system is planning and installation, sometimes including things like fabricating brackets. That cost is the same whether you buy the real thing or the knock-off.

The Webasto installation parts such as drain loops, exhaust, exhaust insulation, hull fittings, high temperature foam supply duct insulation, and custom exhaust components such as a waterbox fitting for specific applications, are really nice.  All of the ducting components and fittings are metal or high-temperature plastic, since the air in a forced-air system is really hot at outlets near the heater

Not sure what you get with the Chinese ebay knock-offs. Do you feel lucky?

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8 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Just install one of these and leave it idling like the fishboats do around here.

One fuel, one machine and fits nicely in a small sailboat if you substitute it for your ballast.

Dickinson 00-ADR Diesel Cook Stove / Heater for 40 to 50 Foot Vessels

A good choice for a longer-term/winter over high latitude cruise.  I would, for such a venture (like they did on DRIVER).

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5 minutes ago, accnick said:

As a retrofit in an existing boat, a lot of the cost of a system is planning and installation, sometimes including things like fabricating brackets. That cost is the same whether you buy the real thing or the knock-off.

The Webasto installation parts such as drain loops, exhaust, exhaust insulation, hull fittings, high temperature foam supply duct insulation, and custom exhaust components such as a waterbox fitting for specific applications, are really nice.  All of the ducting components and fittings are high-temperature plastic, since the air in a forced-air system is really hot at outlets near the heater

Not sure what you get with the Chinese ebay knock-offs. Do you feel lucky?

Read up on them, apparently they actually do work really well. My concerns would be with safety, they are literally cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 to keep spares on hand, so even a few dodgy parts can be tolerated. Some of them are EXACT knockoffs and the parts interchange with the real deal.

Also I used to work on Espars and those things were not exactly all that reliable, if you have a diesel tank that is against the side of the boat in cold weather the cold fuel can cause them to carbon up all to hell and quit working. We used to suggest getting a separate tank and running them on kerosene, which does way better at low temperatures.
(trivia fact, diesel and turbine airplanes would get better MPG on diesel, but it does not like being very cold at altitude, thus the planes run on kerosene)

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11 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Read up on them, apparently they actually do work really well. My concerns would be with safety, they are literally cheap enough to buy 2 or 3 to keep spares on hand, so even a few dodgy parts can be tolerated. Some of them are EXACT knockoffs and the parts interchange with the real deal.

Also I used to work on Espars and those things were not exactly all that reliable, if you have a diesel tank that is against the side of the boat in cold weather the cold fuel can cause them to carbon up all to hell and quit working. We used to suggest getting a separate tank and running them on kerosene, which does way better at low temperatures.
(trivia fact, diesel and turbine airplanes would get better MPG on diesel, but it does not like being very cold at altitude, thus the planes run on kerosene)

Yeah, the Chinese heaters seem to be as reliable as the 10x more expensive ones and as you said they're direct copies with interchangeable parts.  The cheap exhaust is easily worked around.  They can be tucked into a quarter birth perfectly making for good access for air intake and exhaust.  I'd like to have a Sig100 but frankly even on my 31' boat I don't think I have the room for it. (People were a lot smaller in the 70's, this is a known scientific fact.)

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FWIW, I have a Webasto electric heat pump system on board.  Long story - got it “practically free” and couldn’t resist.  As far as heating, it seems to work approximately as well as the oil-filled radiator I used before, but with a lot more noise and bother.  Maybe heats up the boat from cold start a bit faster.  Certainly couldn’t justify paying the new price for such a thing.

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16 hours ago, accnick said:

Webasto ain't cheap. The parts for the forced hot air system I installed in my boat this summer were about $5k.

Our sailing co-op installed a Chinese knock off heater just like an Espar/Webasto for about $300 (heater 200/parts 100). It was worth it to roll out bed in the morning, flick the switch and wait 15 minutes for the cabin to warm up. 

Even if it dies every year for the next 10 years we will only have spent 2.1K on heaters :)  

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13 hours ago, rustylaru said:

Is fly fishing in NZ still a thing? Last I talked with my brother about it, he said rock snott had kinda killed of all the bug life and sucked the o2 out of the water. It sure was difficult to have all you gear sterilized between rivers so as not to transfer invasive species.

Fuck it. You should just sail the northwest passage in a SanJuan 24 and fish Alaska. YMMV

yeah. what's more important - the gear or the spot?

10-Akutan-Wreck.jpg

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6 hours ago, Zonker said:

 It was worth it to roll out bed in the morning, flick the switch and wait 15 minutes for the cabin to warm up.

???

A friend has the only centrally heated boat I've experienced. When it's cold enough to need it, it runs 24 hours. Even then you still need to wear socks all the time.

Why turn it off at night? It doesn't use much fuel.

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We run our Espar D2 24/7 if it's cold enough to have it on. ~70Ah/day flat-out (estimate with ~90Ah/Day total with fridge + lights).

We bought a suitcase generator to charge batteries and run the dehumidifier on extended trips this winter.

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7 hours ago, Zonker said:

Our sailing co-op installed a Chinese knock off heater just like an Espar/Webasto for about $300 (heater 200/parts 100). It was worth it to roll out bed in the morning, flick the switch and wait 15 minutes for the cabin to warm up. 

Even if it dies every year for the next 10 years we will only have spent 2.1K on heaters :)  

Care to share the make/model? 

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