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Captain James Cook’s birthday


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Thanks to Webb Chiles, I learned that today is the 293rd anniversary of Captain Cook’s birth, the navigator/colonizer/etc who among other things, literally and figuratively “closed the loop” on European navigation/colonization/contact of the planet, arriving in Hawaii, one of the most isolated island groups in the world (in case you ever wondered why most everything is so expensive there :-) )

Forthwith, an informative and amusing history vid about Captain James Cook.  His life —and controversial death.  Even if you’ve never made the effort to swim or kayak to the monument ashore in Kealakekua Bay, Hawaii where Cook was killed, to relive the event in your mind on the spot, this is a fun watch:

 

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An arcane bit of trivia related to Captain Cook.

In the British detective series "Inspector Morse", John Thaw's central character is only called Morse, no first name. It is a thread running through the series as he refuses to answer when people ask him about it. "Morse - people just call me Morse".

Finally, near the end his girlfriend gets insistent and he tells her it's "Endeavour". His father was obsessed with Captain Cook and named him after Cook's ship.

Presumably after a childhood of suffering he just stopped using it entirely. :D

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4 minutes ago, kiwin said:

In 2019 it was the 250th anniversary of Cook's first visit to NZ. Understandably many Maori did not think this was something to celebrate and took exception.

Well they should! They were well on their way to wiping themselves out.

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12 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

"One statue, one totem".

Fascist thugs on both sides.

Trying to create an equivalence between oppressor and oppressed creates some very odd comments.  I don't see any fascism in removing a statue of someone who opened the door to colonisation and dispossession.

We had a similar intrusion in Dublin, until some fine citizens took direct action.

This was the chart-topping song:

 

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14 hours ago, vic008 said:

Well they should! They were well on their way to wiping themselves out.

So some of them took themselves off to the Chatham Islands and wiped out the Moriori instead - having previously wiped out the Moriori on Aotearoa.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

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The current human species is the race of colonizers. To be human is to be 'on the move, looking for something better'. If you happen to be in the second-to-latest wave of colonization, you are an oppressed native. It probably started with the Homo Sapiens 'colonizing' the Neanderthals' lands.

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36 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

The current human species is the race of colonizers. To be human is to be 'on the move, looking for something better'. If you happen to be in the second-to-latest wave of colonization, you are an oppressed native. It probably started with the Homo Sapiens 'colonizing' the Neanderthals' lands.

Being on the move is one thing.  Genociding the natives is not a necessary part of moving; it is an ethical choice.

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14 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Being on the move is one thing.  Genociding the natives is not a necessary part of moving; it is an ethical choice.

"Genociding" TL? I am shocked a product of a good, Hibernian, liberal arts education would 'verbize' a noun. That's a 'Mercan speciality...

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4 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

"Genociding" TL? I am shocked a product of a good, Hibernian, liberal arts education would 'verbize' a noun. That's a 'Mercan speciality...

When the noun was first used, in 1944, a telephone was a heavy bakelite implement with a wind-up handle, attached to the wall by a wire.  Now a telephone is a wee thing the size of modest chocolate bar which lives in a pocket and can be used almost anywhere.

Language evolves too.  When I was a kid, wicked meant very very bad, almost evil.

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'Telephone' became a noun in 1832 and a verb in 1877 (cf Merriam Webster Dictionary). When a sailing chum of mine re-married a few years ago, his son by the previous marriage toasted the bride, referring to her as "his wicked stepmother". She was flattered.

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9 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

'Telephone' became a noun in 1832 and a verb in 1877 (cf Merriam Webster Dictionary)

Before the Battle of Clontarf, Brian Boru warned his soldiers to be wary of stuff posted on the internet.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Being on the move is one thing.  Genociding the natives is not a necessary part of moving; it is an ethical choice.

But let’s not forget that, at least in Kipling’s terms, it wasn’t genocide, but rather part of the “burden” of the civilizers.  Along the lines of Joseph Schumpeter’s observation that the key fact of capitalism is “creative destruction” - you must destroy in order to create anew.  Didn’t anyone watch the video I posted in my OP?  John Green goes into great detail on this :-). On Captain Cook, that is.

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4 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

But let’s not forget that, at least in Kipling’s terms, it wasn’t genocide, but rather part of the “burden” of the civilizers.  

Kipling was a much more complex writer than may people acknowledge.  He was far from being the crude champion of empire many assume him to be, and his concept of "the white main's burden" carried a big dose of sarcasm.

But I do acknowledge the chutzpah of those commit mass murder and huge-scale resource theft, then call it "civilising".  The best response to that is the delicious quote attributed (without plausible evidence) to Gandhi: “What Do You Think of Western Civilization?” “I Think It Would Be a Good Idea”

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20 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

But let’s not forget that, at least in Kipling’s terms, it wasn’t genocide, but rather part of the “burden” of the civilizers.  Along the lines of Joseph Schumpeter’s observation that the key fact of capitalism is “creative destruction” - you must destroy in order to create anew.  Didn’t anyone watch the video I posted in my OP?  John Green goes into great detail on this :-). On Captain Cook, that is.

You made me. I don't trust 'history'. His take is good. It will get even better, in the future.

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18 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Kipling was a much more complex writer than may people acknowledge.  He was far from being the crude champion of empire many assume him to be, and his concept of "the white main's burden" carried a big dose of sarcasm.

But I do acknowledge the chutzpah of those commit mass murder and huge-scale resource theft, then call it "civilising".  The best response to that is the delicious quote attributed (without plausible evidence) to Gandhi: “What Do You Think of Western Civilization?” “I Think It Would Be a Good Idea”

You mean the guy who got the idea of civil disobedience from the seppos, who insulted Indian muslims because he failed to understand Islam at a basic level, paving the way to the bloodbath of partition and conducted erectile experiments in his old age?  

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7 minutes ago, Elegua said:

You mean the guy who got the idea of civil disobedience from the seppos

Gandhi got the idea of civil disobedience from the American writer Thoreau, rather than from America in general.  Calling civil disobedience an american idea is as misleading as calling Marxism a Prussian idea. The history of civil disobedience in the US is mostly that it has been violently repressed, and successfully repressed.

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45 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Kipling was a much more complex writer than may people acknowledge.  He was far from being the crude champion of empire many assume him to be, and his concept of "the white main's burden" carried a big dose of sarcasm.

I guess, but that’s sorta like arguing that NWA really were just advocating for police reform.

 

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Just now, TwoLegged said:

Gandhi got the idea of civil disobedience from the American writer Thoreau, rather than from America in general.  Calling civil disobedience an american idea is as misleading as calling Marxism a Prussian idea. The history of civil disobedience in the US is mostly that it has been violently repressed, and successfully repressed.

What is America "in general"? Thoreau was a seppo, who got his from Transcendentalist movement which although they cribbed ideas from the Hinduism and certain Euro philosophers was a distinctly American philosophical movement.  Sure Thoreau was a fraud and ate lunch with his mom a lot. The idea went back to India with Ghandi and then returned to the US again in the 60's with Dr. King et al...very roughly.  History is mostly people riffing on other ideas.   

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4 minutes ago, Elegua said:

What is America "in general"?

I mean that simply that the idea which America took from Thoreau was one man's writing, not a common cultural technique.  Civil disobedience was a significant strand in American history only for a period of about twenty years, a century after Thoreau. 

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24 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I mean that simply that the idea which America took from Thoreau was one man's writing, not a common cultural technique.  Civil disobedience was a significant strand in American history only for a period of about twenty years, a century after Thoreau. 

No. It evolved into other things. I'll tell my niece, ordained in the Unitarian Church, that it doesn't exist. The US was not, and is not, a monolith. That's shallow thinking. 

Also, aren't you not supposed to be using the term "American"? 

15 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

What’s that saying?  “All philosophy since Plato is just a series of footnotes”

Aren't you being Eurocentric? But, yeah. By my thinking the idea of cultural theft is a bit of a silly idea since most innovative ideas are Not Invented Here.  

I didn't give you a proper answer earlier. If we dig into most historical figures we can find some dirt. Even Ghandi. Same with most societies. Few things will fit neatly into a box of this was bad, or this was good, if examined closely.  Some are better than other. Was Maori civilization warm and cuddly? No. It was about as close to Total War as you get pre-industrialization (and not unique in that respect). Does that mean they deserved to be destroyed? Not that either.  Cook can be seen as a great seaman and navigator even if he was a part of the most recent and most industrialized wave of colonization. The achievements are real and deserve to be recognized in an appropriate way and in context.

Personally I'd like to see is recognition of some of these other indigenous early navigators as well. We have a pretty good idea by way of DNA that a lot of the Pacific was colonized by Taiwanese aborigines. That's some real seafaring that no one seems to recognize. Zheng He is getting some recognition as are the shipwrights that abandoned China for SE Asia after the Ming put an end to the party. 

 

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Trying to create an equivalence between oppressor and oppressed creates some very odd comments.  I don't see any fascism in removing a statue of someone who opened the door to colonisation and dispossession.

Of course.

Have a social or political disagreement with something?

Gather a mob and smash it.

Just reasonable and acceptable social protest.

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21 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

An arcane bit of trivia related to Captain Cook.

In the British detective series "Inspector Morse", John Thaw's central character is only called Morse, no first name. It is a thread running through the series as he refuses to answer when people ask him about it. "Morse - people just call me Morse".

Finally, near the end his girlfriend gets insistent and he tells her it's "Endeavour". His father was obsessed with Captain Cook and named him after Cook's ship.

Presumably after a childhood of suffering he just stopped using it entirely. :D

Should have gone by 'Dev.' Everyone would assume 'Devin,' a trusty Gaelic name you'd want to share a pint with. ;)

Cook named the archipeligo the Sandwich Islands after his patron Lord Montague. Guess he knew which side his bread was buttered on.

From the tragedy---> farce basket, a story that began with the usual Guns, Germs, and Steel arc ended with Conquest By Fucking Pineapple. Oh well -- guess it's better than having your island mined to nothing for guano.

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8 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

Should have gone by 'Dev.' Everyone would assume 'Devin,' a trusty Gaelic name you'd want to share a pint with. ;)

Cook named the archipeligo the Sandwich Islands after his patron Lord Montague. Guess he knew which side his bread was buttered on.

From the tragedy---> farce basket, a story that began with the usual Guns, Germs, and Steel arc ended with Conquest By Fucking Pineapple. Oh well -- guess it's better than having your island mined to nothing for guano.

 

 

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I mean that simply that the idea which America took from Thoreau was one man's writing, not a common cultural technique.  Civil disobedience was a significant strand in American history only for a period of about twenty years, a century after Thoreau. 

Ever heard of the Boston Tea Party?

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46 minutes ago, Elegua said:
1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I mean that simply that the idea which America took from Thoreau was one man's writing, not a common cultural technique.  Civil disobedience was a significant strand in American history only for a period of about twenty years, a century after Thoreau. 

No. It evolved into other things. I'll tell my niece, ordained in the Unitarian Church, that it doesn't exist. The US was not, and is not, a monolith. That's shallow thinking. 

Sigh. I did not say that it doesn't exist.  Nor did I say or imply that the US is a monolith.

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
7 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Trying to create an equivalence between oppressor and oppressed creates some very odd comments.  I don't see any fascism in removing a statue of someone who opened the door to colonisation and dispossession.

Of course.

Have a social or political disagreement with something?

Gather a mob and smash it.

Just reasonable and acceptable social protest.

OK, Sloop.  So do you reckon that those eastern European who tore down statues of Stalin were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?  Or that the Iraqis who tore down statues of Saddam were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Sigh. I did not say that it doesn't exist.  Nor did I say or imply that the US is a monolith.

A) Not one man's writings, a movement that spawned others.   B) It is a common cultural technique for the majority of the US locally and nationally.   C) Still a significant strand in US history at the local and national level.  BLM was the largest movement in US history with around 26MM participating and 40% of US counties. Women's march in 2017 was about 3MM.  

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

 

Personally I'd like to see is recognition of some of these other indigenous early navigators as well. We have a pretty good idea by way of DNA that a lot of the Pacific was colonized by Taiwanese aborigines. That's some real seafaring that no one seems to recognize. Zheng He is getting some recognition as are the shipwrights that abandoned China for SE Asia after the Ming put an end to the party. 

 

WE, THE NAVIGATORS: Lewis

THE LAST NAVIGATOR: Steve Thomas

 

AFAIC, the Polynesians were the greatest navigators/mariners the world has yet known

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30 minutes ago, Elegua said:

A) Not one man's writings, a movement that spawned others.  B) It is a common cultural technique for the majority of the US locally and nationally.   C) Still a significant strand in US history at the local and national level.  BLM was the largest movement in US history with around 26MM participating and 40% of US counties. Women's march in 2017 was about 3MM.  

Oh dear.  You really are misreading.  Note again that i said a "significant" part.

And the notion that civil disobedience is "a common cultural technique for the majority of the US locally and nationally" is hilarious.  The majority that backs the global military and upholds gun ownership and the gulag and opposes defunding the police is somehow big on a pacifist technique for resisting tyranny?  Wow!  That's creative.

BLM was a brief resurgence of civil disobedience, after a hiatus of about 40 years.  

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13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Oh dear.  You really are misreading.  Note again that i said a "significant" part.

And the notion that civil disobedience is "a common cultural technique for the majority of the US locally and nationally" is hilarious.  The majority that backs the global military and upholds gun ownership and the gulag and opposes defunding the police is somehow big on a pacifist technique for resisting tyranny?  Wow!  That's creative.

BLM was a brief resurgence of civil disobedience, after a hiatus of about 40 years.  

What hiatus? It's never gone away. You just weren't paying attention. 

Civil disobedience, while it incorporates some aspects of pacifism, and pacifism are chalk and cheese. Which are we discussing here?

The states that most of the population live under regulate guns and the majority of guns owned in the US are not used in violence unless you consider hunting and plinking violence.  It's normal to have opposition to change, or you wouldn't need civil disobedience.  Reform is coming to policing in the US, not as fast as many would want, but it is coming, otherwise so many police would not be resigning out of protest (It works both ways).  BLM hasn't gone away, but has moved off the streets into capital buildings where there will be victories and losses, state by state.  The whole militarism thing is unrelated. Civil disobedience by its very nature is domestic. It requires you to be a part of the society in question.  As for pacifism; it's easy to be post-bellum as long as your neighbor agrees.  EU "civil disobedience" and post-bellum pacifism failed so far to stop two genocides and one irredentist war on its very periphery.  Even Thoreau was against that kind of pacifism. 

 

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I’d do her.  

2 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

WE, THE NAVIGATORS: Lewis

THE LAST NAVIGATOR: Steve Thomas

 

AFAIC, the Polynesians were the greatest navigators/mariners the world has yet known

Do not forgot Tupaia - whose navigational skills and “local” (extending to far away islands) and knowledge greatly impressed Cook and crew.  To the extent that they brought him aboard as a navigator.

Tupaia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupaia_(navigator)

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

Civil disobedience, while it incorporates some aspects of pacifism, and pacifism are chalk and cheese. Which are we discussing here?

Elegua, you have a very different definition of civil disobedience than that normally used.  In common usage, civil disobedience is a pacifist tactic, not a label to be co-opted by gun-wielders.  So I'll leave you to it.

As to your attempt to your attempt to claim that American guns are a defence against genocide ... wow!  That's one of the most extreme inversions of history i have seen in a while.  A native American could explain it to you.

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My daughter hated Captain Cook. All the way across the Pacific she'd be studying local history and geography.

"Hey did you know Captain Cook anchored here to study the Transit of Venus?" Venus Pt, Tahiti

"Hey Captain Cook surveyed these waters in xxxx?" Fiji

"Hey Captain Cook was here! Can you guess the year?"  Town of 1770, Qld. Australia

"Hey Captain Cook hiked to the top of this island to see the way out of the barrier reef"  Lizard Island, Australia

etc etc.

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

OK, Sloop.  So do you reckon that those eastern European who tore down statues of Stalin were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?  Or that the Iraqis who tore down statues of Saddam were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?

You're right, I agree. If you think it's wrong, tear it down - it's only civil disobedience.

Forum brings together experts and the public for discussion of Capitol  insurrection | Hub

 

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3 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

OK, Sloop.  So do you reckon that those eastern European who tore down statues of Stalin were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?  Or that the Iraqis who tore down statues of Saddam were acting unreasonably and unacceptably?

You're right, I agree. If you think it's wrong, tear it down - it's only civil disobedience.

No, statue removal is not civil disobedience.   It uses force, which is not part of civil disobedience.  However, the force is directed against an object, and is not intended to injure anyone and usually injures nobody.

Storming a parliament with guns is also not civil disobedience.  And removing a grossly offensive statue is not in any way comparable to storming a parliament with guns to try to overturn an election, and getting several people killed in the process

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

My daughter hated Captain Cook. All the way across the Pacific she'd be studying local history and geography.

"Hey did you know Captain Cook anchored here to study the Transit of Venus?" Venus Pt, Tahiti

"Hey Captain Cook surveyed these waters in xxxx?" Fiji

"Hey Captain Cook was here! Can you guess the year?"  Town of 1770, Qld. Australia

"Hey Captain Cook hiked to the top of this island to see the way out of the barrier reef"  Lizard Island, Australia

etc etc.

Well, that's gotta be easier than Where's Wally.

Where's Cook?   Here, there, and feckin everywhere.

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Neat attempt to deflect from the fact that some people choose to actively commemorate the sinners.

Thank you.

Moving right along.

The Maori genocide of the Moriori ( they killed half of the them, enslaved the other half and ate what was left over ) and their right to ownership of the islands ended up being challenged in a Wellington court in the mid/late 1800's.

The english judge ruled that the islands belonged to the Maori by 'right of conquest'.

Well an english judge in New Zealand would have to say that wouldn't he?

Meanwhile the 'mainland Maori' now deny that there ever were Moriori on the big islands - and no- they did not kill them off even if there were.

You may or may not be aware that the Moriori were - unlike the Maori - a very peaceful people. Easy game for the invaders.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

No, statue removal is not civil disobedience.   It uses force, which is not part of civil disobedience.  However, the force is directed against an object, and is not intended to injure anyone and usually injures nobody.

Storming a parliament with guns is also not civil disobedience.  And removing a grossly offensive statue is not in any way comparable to storming a parliament with guns to try to overturn an election, and getting several people killed in the process

Sorry Leggs but I don't like seeing mobs trashing anything - even statues of monsters like Stalin or Saddam, let alone historical revisionism like Cook et. al.

There are civilized processes for that sort of thing in civilized societies.

You know the calculation for the intelligence of a mob?

Take the lowest IQ present and divide by the number of people.

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44 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Are you surprised? When I saw the title I sort of wondered if this was the intent. 

No.  The intent, seeing as how it was his birthday on Sunday, was to talk about Cook, not trout fishing, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Covid, Gandhi, quantum computing, yarn weaving, diploid variations, Marxism, etc etc etc etc.  It’s never easy.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

historical revisionism like Cook et. al.

History is an endless process of revision, an ongoing sifting of facts and perspectives.

Unchallengeable history, like the hero-worship of certain people, is not history at all: it's propaganda.  Public statues are like that --  they are not history; they are someone's take on history ("this guy was good  and important") given a prominent public place as a political statement.  

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7 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

C'mon Jud, it's a highly political topic.

Yes - aspects of Cook.  But that’s only *one* aspect of the story.  (Is Tupaia’s role  in the Cook story political?  Sort of, but also not.) My intent in starting this thread wasn’t for for it to be a shitfight.  But so it is.

 

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58 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Back to Cook - wasn't his chart of Newfoundland in use up until the 80s?

I recall some of the soundings being very old on the Admiralty charts, but not Cook old.

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5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

As to your attempt to your attempt to claim that American guns are a defence against genocide ... wow!  That's one of the most extreme inversions of history i have seen in a while.  A native American could explain it to you.

Never said that. But there's no telling you anything. 

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4 minutes ago, Elegua said:

Never said that. But there's no telling you anything. 

There's no telling me nonsense, and your attempt to conflate civil disobedience with other forms of political activity was not sense.

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10 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:
13 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

C'mon Jud, it's a highly political topic.

Yes - aspects of Cook.  But that’s only *one* aspect of the story.  (Is Tupaia’s role  in the Cook story political?  Sort of, but also not.) My intent in starting this thread wasn’t for for it to be a shitfight.  But so it is.

Ah c'mon.  Cook was employed by the British Royal navy to wander the globe mapping out places that the Brits could grab.  That's the core of the Cook story, so it's hardly surprising that the conversation turned to differing views of the merits of hat.

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1 hour ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Back to Cook - wasn't his chart of Newfoundland in use up until the 80s?

 

20 minutes ago, Elegua said:

I recall some of the soundings being very old on the Admiralty charts, but not Cook old.

 

32 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Why/what makes you say that?  Because no surveys were done of that coasts since Cook’s time?  (Did he sail/survey the coast of Newfoundland?!)

Without Googling it, perhaps I meant superimposing a satelite image from the 80s (NAD83, WGS84?), over Cook's showed how incredibly accurate it was.

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44 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

There's no telling me nonsense, and your attempt to conflate civil disobedience with other forms of political activity was not sense.

No, I'm not the one conflating.  You make broad generalizations, "America in general".  You said that the US majority supports gun ownership, then engaged in some handwaving around "global military", "gulag" , so by your understanding therefore is no meaningful (pick your word) tradition of civil disobedience in the US. 

In reality:

1) The majority Usanians don't own guns.

2) The majority Usanians who do own guns don't commit crimes, and don't use their guns as political tools. 

3) Where the majority of the Usanians population live, guns are highly regulated. 

4) In reality, from sit-ins at pipelines to people not carrying ID to oppose anti-immigration laws, Civil Disobedience is probably the most common forms of political action in the US, even if it's against something smart, like getting a vaccine. -_-

Saying that because minority Usanians own guns and a minority of Usanians commit crimes with them, therefore there is no strong history of civil disobedience is like saying because the IRA is a violent group, everyone in the Republic thinks violence is an acceptable political tool.  That's clearly not true. 

 

 

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I guess colonialism was like this...

30 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

 

 

Without Googling it, perhaps I meant superimposing a satelite image from the 80s (NAD83, WGS84?), over Cook's showed how incredibly accurate it was.

The Admiralty charts were dead on as I recall.  If you saw that anchor symbol, it was going to be a great anchorage. 

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On 11/7/2021 at 8:51 AM, view at the front said:

One of my favorite afternoons was laying in a hammock on Aitutaki in the Cook Islands reading his journals.

Especially after wading out to One Foot Island, looking over the footbridge at the giant clams. Good times and places (if you draw 5' or less).

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1 hour ago, Elegua said:

No, I'm not the one conflating.  You make broad generalizations, "America in general".  You said that the US majority supports gun ownership, then engaged in some handwaving around "global military", "gulag" , so by your understanding therefore is no meaningful (pick your word) tradition of civil disobedience in the US. 

In reality:

1) The majority Usanians don't own guns.

2) The majority Usanians who do own guns don't commit crimes, and don't use their guns as political tools. 

3) Where the majority of the Usanians population live, guns are highly regulated. 

4) In reality, from sit-ins at pipelines to people not carrying ID to oppose anti-immigration laws, Civil Disobedience is probably the most common forms of political action in the US, even if it's against something smart, like getting a vaccine. -_-

Saying that because minority Usanians own guns and a minority of Usanians commit crimes with them, therefore there is no strong history of civil disobedience is like saying because the IRA is a violent group, everyone in the Republic thinks violence is an acceptable political tool.  That's clearly not true. 

 

Elegua, I was responding to your redefinition of "civil disobedience", which made discussion impossible.

Your latest reply repeats the problem of shifting definitions.  I did indeed say that majority supports gun ownership, because that is what the polls shows: e.g. in 2020, 74% oppose a ban on privately-held handguns.   But you respond here with comments about what proportion of people actually own guns, which is a different measure.

Comparing apples with oranges like that just leads to pointless confusion and aggravation, so I'll wish you well and leave you to it.

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epic navigator , spot a mountain , drop the pick , row to the beach , climb the hill , draw a chart by eye , wait till Banks is finished , row back to ship , use said chart to nav as far as it goes , spot next mountain , rinse and repeat .

 

btw this was down the reef on Oz's east coast .

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10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Elegua, I was responding to your redefinition of "civil disobedience", which made discussion impossible.

Your latest reply repeats the problem of shifting definitions.  I did indeed say that majority supports gun ownership, because that is what the polls shows: e.g. in 2020, 74% oppose a ban on privately-held handguns.   But you respond here with comments about what proportion of people actually own guns, which is a different measure.

Comparing apples with oranges like that just leads to pointless confusion and aggravation, so I'll wish you well and leave you to it.

You make a logical fallacy when you equate support for gun ownership with lack of civil disobedience. Your assumption seems to be the gun is purely for violent purposes and that mere support for ownership bars you from performing Civil Disobedience.  

But just to keep things straight for me, let's re-cap for a moment and then I'm done (Even if you'll have the last word) 

First you said Civil Disobedience was not Usanian

When corrected you said Thoreau was just some guy writing, not Usania "in general"

When corrected you said that Transendentalism wasn't a significant movement

When corrected you said maybe it existed for a bit and reappeared for 20 years in the 1960's (let's ignore how it got involved with that whole abolitionist thing, that started as Civil Disobedience and quickly became non-peaceful)

When corrected you started handwaving about "global military" "gulag" and "support for gun ownership" and inability to defund the police. I have a feeling that this is your real argument.  That because Usania is not a pacifist country, has a high incarceration rate, and supports gun ownership, and because police reform has been slow and halting, therefore Civil Disobedience cannot be a fundamental part of its society. 

To me, these are unrelated.  To quote a modern Usanian political philosopher: "On the most widely accepted account, civil disobedience is a public, non-violent and conscientious breach of law undertaken with the aim of bringing about a change in laws or government policies (Rawls 1999, 320)"  So while Civil Disobedience requires that the person doing it to be non-violent, it says nothing here about "global military", or incarceration rates, or even gun ownership.  I can own a gun and perform civilly disobedient acts.  I simply leave my gun at home.  Actually, there were cases where people open carried guns to civilly disobey some local gun licensing laws....but I personally I find that a bit questionable.  The most recent and widescale acts of civil disobedience are directly caused by to the lack of reform in Usanian policing. In terms of political outcome the story isn't finished yet and cameras have fundamentally changed the dialogue. 

I don't know about your home country, but in Usania there is a long tradition of supporting the rights of others to do thing oneself would never do.  This is something that even Usanians need to get reminded of from time to time... There is also a long and current history of Civil Disobedience for things both rational and whackadoodle. 

At the end of the day, I think you have a superficial understanding and you chose your conclusion before really examining it. 

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11 hours ago, Borax Johnson said:

Especially after wading out to One Foot Island, looking over the footbridge at the giant clams. Good times and places (if you draw 5' or less).

Absolutely. . . I waded out more than a mile in knee-deep water, and got mildly concerned with large waves crashing against the reef around me.  We later rented our own island and were the first guests to stay in the former Teal Airlines "terminal".

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34 minutes ago, Elegua said:

But just to keep things straight for me, let's re-cap for a moment and then I'm done (Even if you'll have the last word)

I think you have made your points well and convincingly. But, as your northern neighbour, some things about USA are always part of our 'elephant in our living room' view of you:

As I understand it, the right to bear arms in your constitution was predicated on a need to have a standing militia ready to defend the new and shaky republic. It is probably now a superfluity that leads to more problems than benefits. In Canada we treat guns like automobiles - a privilege to own and regulated by strict licensing. Most of the illicit handguns used in crimes here come from the USA. Yes, criminals will always find guns, but I wish it was harder for them.

The divisive bi-partisanship that has manifested itself in American politics since the civil war has only worsened. The kind of stuff that happened in the last presidential election is very worrying. A governance model that includes multiple parties representing a spectrum of views is healthier than the 'us or them' or 'my America' divisiveness that the USA seems mired in (cf  five real political parties in Canada, typical European elections, etc.). Consensus builds better democracies than 'winner takes all'.

 

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On 11/7/2021 at 5:37 PM, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

literally and figuratively “closed the loop” on European navigation/colonization/contact of the planet, arriving in Hawaii,

Sorry what?

He "closed the loop" 200 years late mate... We are are celebrating the 500th anniversary of Juan Sebastian Elcano finishing the first circunnavigation this year.

 

He wasn't the first European arriving in Hawaii either, he was also 200 years late on that one.

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 Americano gun nuts and guns, go together like a PBJ sandwich.

Its well past time for Americanos to grow up and out of their wild wild west cowboy history.

Sad really.

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11 hours ago, Mid said:

epic navigator , spot a mountain , drop the pick , row to the beach , climb the hill , draw a chart by eye , wait till Banks is finished , row back to ship , use said chart to nav as far as it goes , spot next mountain , rinse and repeat .

:lol:

"The ebb, Joseph. For crying out loud, the ebb!"

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3 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I think you have made your points well and convincingly. But, as your northern neighbour, some things about USA are always part of our 'elephant in our living room' view of you:

As I understand it, the right to bear arms in your constitution was predicated on a need to have a standing militia ready to defend the new and shaky republic. It is probably now a superfluity that leads to more problems than benefits. In Canada we treat guns like automobiles - a privilege to own and regulated by strict licensing. Most of the illicit handguns used in crimes here come from the USA. Yes, criminals will always find guns, but I wish it was harder for them.

The divisive bi-partisanship that has manifested itself in American politics since the civil war has only worsened. The kind of stuff that happened in the last presidential election is very worrying. A governance model that includes multiple parties representing a spectrum of views is healthier than 'the us or them' or 'my America' divisiveness that the USA seems mired in (cf  five real political parties in Canada, typical European elections, etc.). Consensus builds better democracies than 'winner takes all'.

 

As someone who lived in a smaller country that can't speak it's name" the shadow of another much larger country, I understand the 'elephant in our living room' view. :D . Talk about neo-colonialism that no one wants to talk about! 

I wrote a long post and then I decided not to post it. This is CA not PA. happy to chat my PM or in PA. 

Anyway, living next to the US is always going to be like living next to those " Shit-kickin', speed-takin' Truck-drivin' neighbors downstairs". 
 

 

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Sorry what?

He "closed the loop" 200 years late mate... We are are celebrating the 500th anniversary of Juan Sebastian Elcano finishing the first circunnavigation this year.

 

He wasn't the first European arriving in Hawaii either, he was also 200 years late on that one.

Sheesh, you believe everything you read on the Innernet?  :-). My bad - I don’t know colonial/explorer history, obviously.  I thought I recall reading that (in the Captain Cook book @Kolibriposted above) that Cook was the first Euro to Hawaii (literally and figuratively closing the loop on Euro colonialism/exploration of the world.). I will go stand at the  back of the class.

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2 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I think you have made your points well and convincingly. But, as your northern neighbour, some things about USA are always part of our 'elephant in our living room' view of you:

As I understand it, the right to bear arms in your constitution was predicated on a need to have a standing militia ready to defend the new and shaky republic.

 

US Supreme Court has already long since decided/ruled that the 2A isn’t restricted/bound by historical context (the “militia” thing), as ridiculous as that is.  But that’s a PA thing.  I donnae live there so could care less. :-)

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3 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Sorry what?

He "closed the loop" 200 years late mate... We are are celebrating the 500th anniversary of Juan Sebastian Elcano finishing the first circunnavigation this year.

 

He wasn't the first European arriving in Hawaii either, he was also 200 years late on that one.

It isn't what Cook discovered - it is what he didn't discover.

His second voyage - on Resolution - disproved the existance of a great south land which some in the north believed was needed to balance the globe and stop it falling over and rolling off their desks.

James-Cook-Pacific-voyages.jpg

 

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6 hours ago, Elegua said:

At the end of the day, I think you have a superficial understanding and you chose your conclusion before really examining it. 

And you, Elegua, have a narrow understanding which is more interested in dismissing outside views than in seeing another perspective -- which is why continued discussion would be futile. 

In particular, your claim that guns are for something other than violence is a common American fallacy which would be dismissed nearly anywhere else in the world as a delusion.  If you think that gun ownership is compatible with civil disobedience, then you radically misunderstand both guns and civil disobedience

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