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unbolting a plate bedded with 5200


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11 minutes ago, Quickstep192 said:

Interesting... my experience has been the opposite of yours. I've found the fluted recess grips a driver far better than slotted, Phillips, hex or square. I've mostly used them in woodworking and I generally use good tools, but they've worked very well for me. 

Yes but. You are so new into sailing that you post each question on here and many elsewhere ... but now are rebutting a guy with vast experience plus you moved the goalposts from glass and goo to wood and are too inexperienced to get the difference.

Reminds me of a guy who spent a small fortune building a 46' catamaran using polyester for glue and hammered in all the screws, commenting the heads and threads were for removal. Broke up on second voyage ... wasting 5 years of the "Captain's" life plus the actual money.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Reminds me of a guy who spent a small fortune building a 46' catamaran using polyester for glue and hammered in all the screws, commenting the heads and threads were for removal. Broke up on second voyage ... wasting 5 years of the "Captain's" life plus the actual money.

Hotrod?

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1 minute ago, George Dewey said:

Hotrod?

This was way before that. Guy's name was Roland something in Galveston and Wharram cats were a hippy dippy thing. I built a smaller one myself with W.E.S.T. Fun little boat. Sold in Miami.

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Yes but. You are so new into sailing that you post each question on here and many elsewhere ... but now are rebutting a guy with vast experience plus you moved the goalposts from glass and goo to wood and are too inexperienced to get the difference.

Reminds me of a guy who spent a small fortune building a 46' catamaran using polyester for glue and hammered in all the screws, commenting the heads and threads were for removal. Broke up on second voyage ... wasting 5 years of the "Captain's" life plus the actual money.

I’m not rebutting SJB, just saying that I’ve had good luck with torx screws. Jeesh… 

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11 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:
19 minutes ago, Quickstep192 said:

I’m not rebutting SJB, just saying that I’ve had good luck with torx screws. Jeesh… 

Yeah, but wood ain't glass and goo. RIF.

It's a legitimate question. The driver style has little to do with the fastening properties of the screw. Torx can work just fine on a boat but there's little advantage and disadvantages include the fact that it's nearly impossible to get 316 stainless fasteners with Torx heads. 

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9 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Because they are runner up to slots in the most horrible screw head ever sweeps.

They were invented for one reason - to be used by robot screw guns to assemble cars. Removing them was never considered.

The flutes are so tiny that when they get crap in them it's almost impossible to clean up enough to seat a driver properly.

The tiny flutes on drivers are inherently weak so you MUST use high quality tools or they'll strip.

In short, they have no redeeming features whatsoever.

My question to you is - Why would you want to use them?

 

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I've never found Torx to be any worse in that regard than hex. Unless we're talking about paint or mud, most of the crap that gets in there is larger and can be blown or dug out the same as hex. 

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25 minutes ago, IStream said:

I've never found Torx to be any worse in that regard than hex. Unless we're talking about paint or mud, most of the crap that gets in there is larger and can be blown or dug out the same as hex. 

Talking glass and goo. And torx as a good choice ... but but but are you actually saying you've used these screws in boat work with glass and goo?

[rhetorical, obviously]

 

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4 hours ago, Quickstep192 said:

Interesting... my experience has been the opposite of yours. I've found the fluted recess grips a driver far better than slotted, Phillips, hex or square. I've mostly used them in woodworking and I generally use good tools, but they've worked very well for me. 

They work great - the first time. After that is when the trouble starts.

That grip you refer to is what they are all about. It's called being "resistant to cam-out" and was developed so they would sip on and stick on robot screw guns.

Robertsons are almost as good initially and vastly better subsequently but they were NIH so Detroit had to create Torx.

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On 11/8/2021 at 8:48 AM, SloopJonB said:

I recently acquired one of these.

18 V Cordless Impact Driver BOSCH - Canac

I don't know how I got deck hardware unbolted before - this zips off nuts with no-one holding the other end and it doesn't even disturb cured sealant around the shank..

Yes Yes Yes!  Got these exact same device, it's brilliant.

And I had to get some cross beams off a cat this weekend, 5200. Heat gun and a wedge worked. I had a angle grinder ready in case I needed to just cut the damn things but off it came. Only one socket has a bit of damage where the wedge bit into the glass.

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On 11/8/2021 at 10:48 AM, Quickstep192 said:

I use a creme brûlée torch in these situations. It's a much more focused flame. I also use the creme brûlée torch for burning the ends of rope. Remember, fiberglass is highly flammable. 
 

Also, the impact from an impact driver is it the direction of rotation, it's not beating on the screw. An impact drill is beating on whatever you're drilling into. 
 

To turn the screws, you might try doubling up nuts and tightening them together and seeing if you can turn them with a wrench. 
 

I've heard of people using guitar strings to sever the 5200. Wrap each of the ends of the string around a dowel and work it under the plate. 

ayup... 

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

They work great - the first time. After that is when the trouble starts.

That grip you refer to is what they are all about. It's called being "resistant to cam-out" and was developed so they would sip on and stick on robot screw guns.

Robertsons are almost as good initially and vastly better subsequently but they were NIH so Detroit had to create Torx.

Torx are more resistant to cam out than Robertson, and can take more torque in soft screws (like SS). They are harder to clean of paint and glue. You Canucks are going to be whinging on about Robertson and Ford in the 23rd century. :rolleyes: Time to move on. Philips didn't destroy Robertson, nor did Ford - Philips weren't invented and patented until the 1930s, automobile mass production was in full swing world wide by then. Torx are a 1960s invention. The reason Robertson weren't more widely adopted is because Robertson wanted to be a monopoly source.

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3 hours ago, DDW said:

Torx are more resistant to cam out than Robertson, and can take more torque in soft screws (like SS). They are harder to clean of paint and glue. You Canucks are going to be whinging on about Robertson and Ford in the 23rd century. :rolleyes: Time to move on. Philips didn't destroy Robertson, nor did Ford - Philips weren't invented and patented until the 1930s, automobile mass production was in full swing world wide by then. Torx are a 1960s invention. The reason Robertson weren't more widely adopted is because Robertson wanted to be a monopoly source.

Like I said.

I question the "can take more torque" bit - I've experienced lots of them stripping out the splines.

Like I said.

I never blamed anyone but Robertson for their lack of acceptance - well maybe the Brit partners he was involved with who screwed him in some previous deal - that was the reason for his obsession with control and being averse to licensing the patent.

I've had lots of both and I come by my dislike of Torx honestly through lots of experience.

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53 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Like I said.

I question the "can take more torque" bit - I've experienced lots of them stripping out the splines.

 

I've busted several Torx screwdrivers just barehanding them and trying to remove corroded fasteners on cars.  Haven't dont that wiht a Torx socket yet with my screw gun or electric impact wrench, but then the bit kit I uses is all black metal, and even though it's finest quality Chinesium, seems to have been built with at least moderate impact wrench use in mind.  The advantage of busting out, say, a T-10 screwdriver tip, is unless it breaks really badly and is ragged on the end or the splines are "swirled," the screwdriver can be used again, just file the tip slightly at an angle to permit it to slid into the Torx bols, and it will work perfectly... until it breaks again. 

Still a fan of properly sized Phillips on a pan head...

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Like I said.

I question the "can take more torque" bit - I've experienced lots of them stripping out the splines.

Like I said.

I never blamed anyone but Robertson for their lack of acceptance - well maybe the Brit partners he was involved with who screwed him in some previous deal - that was the reason for his obsession with control and being averse to licensing the patent.

I've had lots of both and I come by my dislike of Torx honestly through lots of experience.

Building my house we went through approximately 40,000 Robertson SS screws, and about 10,000 Torx head. So I have some experience with them as well. Each as plusses and minuses, but overall, we found the Robertson would strip a little easier than the Torx. Since SS can vary from 35 ksi to 80 ksi depending on state of hardness, maybe the manufacturing source makes more difference than anything else. 

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after boat builders using 5200, the next pet hate are set screws everywhere and not bolts.
( thread to the head just waiting for some moisture to start to fail the stainless where it has been machined)
IMG_3591.JPG

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2 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

I once dropped a tool on deck and it didn't go overboard!

Pics or it didn't happen.

In fact, video of  it happening or it didn't. :D

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