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OneSails drama.......


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Watched this last night. OneSails needs to make the Wynns some new sails and that's about the end of it. Cheap and good PR for their brand, too. They'll (The Wynns) almost certainly make a video explaining how OneSails saved the day and made them even better sails than what they ordered to make this right, and millions will watch it. Hundreds of thousands more will see it in forums and posts.

Seems like a no fucking brainer...

I hope there aren't other who are in the same position without the platform put the pressure on. They should be taken care of as well of course.

 

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That sux for the party that got screwed. 
I have a question.

Why pay in full before the product is delivered? As a person who spent their whole career as a contractor, I never got paid in full, nor did I pay my sub contractors in full until the job was 100% complete. 
I hold out hope for a happy ending.

 

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17 minutes ago, Editor said:

50% deposit with order, balance upon delivery. Period. And 100% pre-payment for dickhead customers ;)

in another country and they dont know the people, may as well use alibaba

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21 minutes ago, Editor said:

50% deposit with order, balance upon delivery. Period. And 100% pre-payment for dickhead customers ;)

Also order locally.

I personally don't recommend ordering sails from a sail-maker in a foreign country who offers a price better than anyone else in the world.

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Finalising payment upon delivery is fine, until the business gets fucked. Heard stories of mum and dad upholsterers being screwed by superyachts departing country after services were complete, final payment never made. There's a reason "no cash, no splash" is a thing in the marine industry.

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From their site:

UPDATE!

Good News!  The CEO of One Sails (Dede De luca) has reached out to us and said they are looking to help us sort out the problem.  He has given us his personal phone number so we can talk, which we really appreciate.

Surprisingly, we’ve also received an email from Belinda.

We’ll keep you in the loop as things progress.

Thank you all for your support!

 

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I have a big problem with people who use their "celebrity," however minor it may be, as leverage in what is essentially a minor contract dispute. I have no idea about the nature of the underlying matter--maybe they did get screwed, maybe there's more to the story.  We'll certainly never know. But, creating and disseminating a video like this is unseemly at best and borders on extortionate at worst. Go get a lawyer like the rest of us.

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How much do you think the contract is worth? $15 - 20K    Main, genoa, trampoline, and new stack pack.

They pay real money and get nothing. How is this a "minor contract dispute"? Did you watch their video.

It's not unseemly in any way if you have an audience to call these assholes on non performance. Putting a bit of public pressure on them is more likely to get their money back than suing in a S.African court.

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 "maybe there's more to the story"

 

Well, the other party can respond as well.  I think it's great the consumer can reach a large audience with their gripe.  It restores balance.  It's not a "contract dispute" they've taken their money and are now MIA lol.  A legit contract dispute is one thing.  A rug pull is another.  

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So this is fascinating in how it ties into the similar issue with Brian Hancock aka Great Circle Sails: https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/221146-covid-casualty-or-deliberate-fraud-not-such-a-great-circle/ .

If you read that thread I and others recently had a very similar experience with this different (but connected) company. In one of his last communications before totally ceasing to respond, Brian told me that Jan Reuvers was actually the loft contracted to manufacture my sails, that Jan was unreachable, and that's why my sails were "delayed".  I reached out to Jan and got one reply confirming I had the right person, but nothing after I explained my issue and asked if he had my sails. Jan disappearing is no excuse for Brian to drop off the face of the earth, but I guess he wasn't lying about the problem being the Jan Reuvers loft. 

Does anyone know more about what the hell is going on? If so please share, or at least PM me if you don't want it public.

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37 minutes ago, Zonker said:

How much do you think the contract is worth? $15 - 20K    Main, genoa, trampoline, and new stack pack.

They pay real money and get nothing. How is this a "minor contract dispute"? Did you watch their video.

It's not unseemly in any way if you have an audience to call these assholes on non performance. Putting a bit of public pressure on them is more likely to get their money back than suing in a S.African court.

Ok, fair enough. If they're not at fault then I don't want to diminish the importance of their gripe. Your point is well taken, and I rescind the phrase "minor contract dispute."  

But, I still stand by my broader point. You don't know any more than I do whether they are being fully truthful about the circumstances of their situation. They could have easily omitted relevant facts that would change your evaluation of the matter. I don't know what happened, and neither do you. We've only gotten one side of the story. It's entirely possible that they made payment and the sailmaker had to chase them around god's green earth to try to get the sails delivered and delivery costs were never contemplated in the original contract price. Or, the sailmaker could have taken their money and simply never delivered as they allege, in which case they have every right to be made whole.

There's an inherent imbalance of power between those who have an audience to leverage against someone with whom they have a disagreement. I get it that this is more often than not the other way around--the company obviously usually enjoys the imbalance of power, but that doesn't make it right just because the shoe is on the other foot this time.

It's not enough to simply say "well, the company could defend itself in the court of public opinion..."  The damage is done. As we've seen from this thread, simply making the allegation alone is enough to make up most peoples' minds. Not all, but most.

Look, I'm usually on the side of the little guy, and if these guys got screwed, then they should be made whole. All I'm saying is that 1) using your audience to gang up on someone who you do business with has the potential of abuse and 2) it's not fair to the rest of us who have no such leverage.

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48 minutes ago, Zonker said:

How much do you think the contract is worth? $15 - 20K    Main, genoa, trampoline, and new stack pack.

They pay real money and get nothing. How is this a "minor contract dispute"? Did you watch their video.

It's not unseemly in any way if you have an audience to call these assholes on non performance. Putting a bit of public pressure on them is more likely to get their money back than suing in a S.African court.

The public pressure seems to be on One Sails in Italy and not on who they sent the money to.

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So with the advent of internet, shopping globally and not locally, and the fact that these purchasing behaviours are going to flourish rather than diminish, is it not time to establish small scale escrow facilities that allow demonstration by purchasers that they do have the financial capacity to fully pay the amount being sought, but only releases payment when goods are received.

This occurs for the big end of town in million dollar deal capacity. But seemingly not for smaller but still serious purchasing commitments.

But last year when I was seeking to buy a boat from thousands of miles away the amount was similar to the values being talked about here, yet I was incredibly aware of how foolish handing over $20k+ in a deal where sold unseen was one thing, but establishing that the vendor was who he claimed he was and actually had legal tenure of the item was equally a hazy topic.

My Bank was clueless in being able to help. 

But I cannot have been the first to have encountered these situations. I missed out on what was a very unusual and desirable opportunity for me.

But I couldn't have worn the potential loss. I still can't reconcile how this could have been done better. (It was during lockdowns).

The parallels to this sail situation are uncanny.

So who has what for resolving these issues. Escrow as a concept seems appropriate, but it has to be both Fair and trusted without getting so caught up in the Legal establishment that the Lawyer & Bank fees are unreasonable.

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You might want to watch the video. AND read the link to the lawsuit of Quantum against the principals of OneSails in S. Africa (not the Italian firm). 

https://casetext.com/case/quantum-sail-design-grp-llc-v-jannie-reuvers-sails-ltd-1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=ActugHJb_lwOlwzgX.saoLKjzhVBRQ59movluOQ6ZHs-1636259719-0-gaNycGzNCP0

You get the impression that these guys (not the Wynns) have a history of very shady practices when you read the judgement. It's fairly long and I started skimming about 1/3 in.

I think the Brian Hancock sail making fiasco is a similar situation. Somebody doesn't deliver and other consumers are warned. This helps other sailors. What do the Wynns get by making up a story of undelivered sails.

I don't care that they have more of an audience and the company can only put out a press release if they want. It's not injustice. Its the little guy having a voice for a change.

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30 minutes ago, Zonker said:

You might want to watch the video. AND read the link to the lawsuit of Quantum against the principals of OneSails in S. Africa (not the Italian firm). 

https://casetext.com/case/quantum-sail-design-grp-llc-v-jannie-reuvers-sails-ltd-1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=ActugHJb_lwOlwzgX.saoLKjzhVBRQ59movluOQ6ZHs-1636259719-0-gaNycGzNCP0

You get the impression that these guys (not the Wynns) have a history of very shady practices when you read the judgement. It's fairly long and I started skimming about 1/3 in.

I think the Brian Hancock sail making fiasco is a similar situation. Somebody doesn't deliver and other consumers are warned. This helps other sailors. What do the Wynns get by making up a story of undelivered sails.

I don't care that they have more of an audience and the company can only put out a press release if they want. It's not injustice. Its the little guy having a voice for a change.

Dammit. Down the rabbit hole I go.

Here’s the original complaint and attached exhibits from pacer.  Bedtime reading, yaaay…

 

1.pdf 1-1.pdf 1-2.pdf 1-3.pdf

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6 hours ago, Murphness said:

Watched this last night. OneSails needs to make the Wynns some new sails and that's about the end of it. Cheap and good PR for their brand, too. They'll (The Wynns) almost certainly make a video explaining how OneSails saved the day and made them even better sails than what they ordered to make this right, and millions will watch it. Hundreds of thousands more will see it in forums and posts.

Seems like a no fucking brainer...

I hope there aren't other who are in the same position without the platform put the pressure on. They should be taken care of as well of course.

 

100% otherwise it will be the end of their business. This sort of press becomes a cancer and it won't take long for word to spread.! Surprised it's gotten this far....

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I think those guys in SA were also the ones that shafted Ullman on their laminates a few years ago where they changed a glue and they all fell apart in 12 months.
Poor lofts using those panels in a bad postion, Ullman did replace them all, must of cost lots and not their fault.

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When a Parent or figurehead company issues a franchise to a group or individual they inevitably take some degree of responsibility for there actions.The parent group should have a contingency fund out of the royalties or commissions  to address and cover situations such as this.If I get a bad Burger at Maccas and the franchise I got it at doesn’t address the issue it is the Maccas name that is trashed in my mind not the particular franchise.As previously stated here One Sails definitely needs to step up to the plate a fix the issue at no further coast to the clients who have only acted in good faith.

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16 minutes ago, Rotnest Express said:

they inevitably take some degree of responsibility for there actions.

and the wynns who claim

"This is a cautionary tale about how we ordered sails from a reputable sail manufacturer, paid in full, and 21 months later, we have no sails."

How did they determine that? They dealt with a private company in a foreign to them African country, whose principals have on record previous court issues, like DOH

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20 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

and the wynns who claim

"This is a cautionary tale about how we ordered sails from a reputable sail manufacturer, paid in full, and 21 months later, we have no sails."

How did they determine that? They dealt with a private company in a foreign to them African country, whose principals have on record previous court issues, like DOH

Agreed.

They bought from a much less reputable sail manufacturer who used a highly reputed brand (without a permission to use it the brand name any further at the point of the purchase, as OneSails apparently claims). 

Very tricky situation, quite similar in my view to the 'Chinarello' problem in bike manufacturing, where existing molds and know-how get used to put out counterfeit copies of high-end bike frames (often with quality issues), brand them and sell them for less. 

The original brands often know who did that but until now often lacked the means to do anything about it.

 

The upcoming solution seems to be NFT technology: the frames get implemented a chip with a non-fungible token on it - basically an encrypted code that enables the buyer to verify that the frame is legit.

I think this could be done with sails, too:

> Brand parent company issues chips with NFT's to all sub-contractors.

> New sails will only be verified as 'original [brand] sails via the code, if the sub-contractors meet all requirements (production, work standards, royalties etc.).

> Customers pay only after verification (Preferably via a payment process that runs through brand parent company or a third party.).

 

Sure, that's the future. For now, I don't really pitty the W. family. The way they approached this was an accident waiting to happen.

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4 hours ago, GrandWeasel said:

I have a big problem with people who use their "celebrity," however minor it may be, as leverage in what is essentially a minor contract dispute. I have no idea about the nature of the underlying matter--maybe they did get screwed, maybe there's more to the story.  We'll certainly never know. But, creating and disseminating a video like this is unseemly at best and borders on extortionate at worst. Go get a lawyer like the rest of us.

They've also used their "celebrity" to;

Lobby Astra Zeneca to provide free cancer treatment to a fellow cruiser

Raise US$28000 for a local Fiji animal shelter

raise money to buy Ukeleles for a music school in Tonga

amongst other charitable things.

 

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Unfortunately for the punters they dont know how it works for most lofts, bottom end sails as usually generic cloth and only the top end comes from the parent hence for the low end the parent doesnt know about the deal.

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10 hours ago, GrandWeasel said:


Look, I'm usually on the side of the little guy, and if these guys got screwed, then they should be made whole. All I'm saying is that 1) using your audience to gang up on someone who you do business with has the potential of abuse and 2) it's not fair to the rest of us who have no such leverage.

But why don't you have this leverage? If you were screwed over thinking you were buying a legitimate product, there's nothing stopping you from creating a youtube channel, putting together an objective video, and putting it out to the world. Tell a couple friends, post it here, link it on facebook, and suddenly you have an audience too. This is 2021. Right or wrong, you can amplify pretty much anything no matter who you are.

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11 hours ago, Decay said:

So this is fascinating in how it ties into the similar issue with Brian Hancock aka Great Circle Sails: https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/221146-covid-casualty-or-deliberate-fraud-not-such-a-great-circle/ .

If you read that thread I and others recently had a very similar experience with this different (but connected) company. In one of his last communications before totally ceasing to respond, Brian told me that Jan Reuvers was actually the loft contracted to manufacture my sails, that Jan was unreachable, and that's why my sails were "delayed".  I reached out to Jan and got one reply confirming I had the right person, but nothing after I explained my issue and asked if he had my sails. Jan disappearing is no excuse for Brian to drop off the face of the earth, but I guess he wasn't lying about the problem being the Jan Reuvers loft

Does anyone know more about what the hell is going on? If so please share, or at least PM me if you don't want it public.

its almost like sail-making is as tenuous a business as boat-building..

Quantum Sail Design Group, LLC v. Jannie Reuvers Sails, Ltd. et al (January 29, 2015)

Jannie Reuvers Sails, Ltd., counter-claimant
Quantum Sail Design Group, LLC, counter-defendant
Jannie Reuvers Sails, Ltd., defendant
Leading Edge Sailmakers, Ltd., defendant
Jannie Reuvers, defendant
Sail Design Company, defendant
Ullman Sails, International, Inc., defendant
Brian Hancock, garnishee
Quantum Sail Design Group, LLC, plaintiff

https://www.govinfo.gov/app/details/USCOURTS-miwd-1_13-cv-00879/USCOURTS-miwd-1_13-cv-00879-1

 

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2 hours ago, floater said:

its almost like sail-making is as tenuous a business as boat-building..

Exactly the same happened to me some years ago and I did not have a YT channel or a bigger audience, though I wished for in hindsight. Deposit of $ 90.000,-- for a Santa Cruz 37 paid into yard owners bank account. Got built slot 11 and after built slot nos. 10, they closed the shop (as I was told) but the deposit had been lost. Trying to sue from Germany nearly impossible. Many, many promises and after a while the owner stopped communications. Moonies lost!

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

You might want to watch the video. AND read the link to the lawsuit of Quantum against the principals of OneSails in S. Africa (not the Italian firm). 

https://casetext.com/case/quantum-sail-design-grp-llc-v-jannie-reuvers-sails-ltd-1?__cf_chl_jschl_tk__=ActugHJb_lwOlwzgX.saoLKjzhVBRQ59movluOQ6ZHs-1636259719-0-gaNycGzNCP0

You get the impression that these guys (not the Wynns) have a history of very shady practices when you read the judgement. It's fairly long and I started skimming about 1/3 in.

I think the Brian Hancock sail making fiasco is a similar situation. Somebody doesn't deliver and other consumers are warned. This helps other sailors. What do the Wynns get by making up a story of undelivered sails.

I don't care that they have more of an audience and the company can only put out a press release if they want. It's not injustice. Its the little guy having a voice for a change.

Ok Zonker et al, you've changed my mind. I've watched the video and reviewed the pleadings and the 6th circuit opinion, and I'm prepared to issue a full retraction.  There is actually more to this than I initially assumed, and I'm satisfactorily convinced that the Wynns were in fact victimized by willfully dishonest actors. And, while they may or may not have been foolish by paying the entire amount up front, they still deserve to get what they paid for. 

I'm still not 100% clear on the connection between OneSails and JRS is, but to the extent that there is one it's pretty clear that JRS are shady and so are their lawyers. From the sixth circuit opinion:

"On October 27, 2015, Quantum filed under seal a motion for sanctions, alleging that Jannie and Belinda Reuvers had engaged in discovery violations and that they had submitted a false affidavit and false documents to the Master...In the same opinion, the district court partly granted Quantum's renewed motion for sanctions against JRS and its owners for discovery fraud, including for providing the Master with fabricated invoices and for submitting false affidavits and false information in several filings with the court. The district court denied injunctive relief but granted monetary sanctions in the amount later set at $312,439 in costs and attorney's fees; it also ordered the release to Quantum of $343,636.74 held in escrow in the court's registry." (emphasis mine)
 

In other words, regardless of the merits, during the litigation the court popped JRS and their lawyers for nearly $300,000 for discovery abuse & lying under oath.That is extraordinary and strongly indicative of dishonesty on behalf of both the client and their counsel.
 

-


As to my point about using the audience to leverage an outcome--I take that back as well. So they built a platform and used that platform to spread relevant and topical information. Nothing wrong with that. They didn't set up a gofundme or beg for money, they just said what happened. It also sounds like they realize they're probably not getting their money back. I think I just assumed they were spreading this around as leverage or with a hand out to their audience, and turns out that's probably not the case.

So, mea culpa.  I hope these people get their money back. Sadly, they'll have to get in line with Quantum who is now owed a cool $2.5 million. Somehow I doubt anyone will ever collect in full...



 

 

 

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15 hours ago, GrandWeasel said:

There's an inherent imbalance of power between those who have an audience to leverage against someone with whom they have a disagreement.

It's not fair to the rest of us who have no such leverage.

These two comments......LOL

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9 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Did they have such an option available to them?
I did watch the video when it was posted in the Hancock thread and was under the impression they are off sailing.....i.e. no home port. So the ability to buy local may not have been an option.
Second thought, the 100% deposit may also be due to the fact they they were basically in transit. Sailmaker doesn't know how to contact them if they move on etc.

That said, seems this loft has a habit of falling out with large labels. Curious that any corporation would be doing business with them, let alone three known  brands.

Possibly not. I don't know and they didn't say... Lot of folks with access to a decent sailmaker buy OTS sails to save a few bucks. I choose not to... 

 

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3 hours ago, 8:1 said:

Should have bought North Sails.  Yeah a little more but they stand behind their product and their service.

because north own all their dealers, dream on, same thing could and has happened to them.

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6 hours ago, GrandWeasel said:

Ok Zonker et al, you've changed my mind. I've watched the video and reviewed the pleadings and the 6th circuit opinion, and I'm prepared to issue a full retraction.  There is actually more to this than I initially assumed, and I'm satisfactorily convinced that the Wynns were in fact victimized by willfully dishonest actors. And, while they may or may not have been foolish by paying the entire amount up front, they still deserve to get what they paid for. 

I'm still not 100% clear on the connection between OneSails and JRS is, but to the extent that there is one it's pretty clear that JRS are shady and so are their lawyers. From the sixth circuit opinion:

"On October 27, 2015, Quantum filed under seal a motion for sanctions, alleging that Jannie and Belinda Reuvers had engaged in discovery violations and that they had submitted a false affidavit and false documents to the Master...In the same opinion, the district court partly granted Quantum's renewed motion for sanctions against JRS and its owners for discovery fraud, including for providing the Master with fabricated invoices and for submitting false affidavits and false information in several filings with the court. The district court denied injunctive relief but granted monetary sanctions in the amount later set at $312,439 in costs and attorney's fees; it also ordered the release to Quantum of $343,636.74 held in escrow in the court's registry." (emphasis mine)
 

In other words, regardless of the merits, during the litigation the court popped JRS and their lawyers for nearly $300,000 for discovery abuse & lying under oath.That is extraordinary and strongly indicative of dishonesty on behalf of both the client and their counsel.
 

-


As to my point about using the audience to leverage an outcome--I take that back as well. So they built a platform and used that platform to spread relevant and topical information. Nothing wrong with that. They didn't set up a gofundme or beg for money, they just said what happened. It also sounds like they realize they're probably not getting their money back. I think I just assumed they were spreading this around as leverage or with a hand out to their audience, and turns out that's probably not the case.

So, mea culpa.  I hope these people get their money back. Sadly, they'll have to get in line with Quantum who is now owed a cool $2.5 million. Somehow I doubt anyone will ever collect in full...



 

 

 

Nice to see a thoughtful, well researched change-of-mind on the internet. Takes a big person.

 

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21 hours ago, Boink said:

So with the advent of internet, shopping globally and not locally, and the fact that these purchasing behaviours are going to flourish rather than diminish, is it not time to establish small scale escrow facilities that allow demonstration by purchasers that they do have the financial capacity to fully pay the amount being sought, but only releases payment when goods are received.

This occurs for the big end of town in million dollar deal capacity. But seemingly not for smaller but still serious purchasing commitments.

But last year when I was seeking to buy a boat from thousands of miles away the amount was similar to the values being talked about here, yet I was incredibly aware of how foolish handing over $20k+ in a deal where sold unseen was one thing, but establishing that the vendor was who he claimed he was and actually had legal tenure of the item was equally a hazy topic.

My Bank was clueless in being able to help. 

But I cannot have been the first to have encountered these situations. I missed out on what was a very unusual and desirable opportunity for me.

But I couldn't have worn the potential loss. I still can't reconcile how this could have been done better. (It was during lockdowns).

The parallels to this sail situation are uncanny.

So who has what for resolving these issues. Escrow as a concept seems appropriate, but it has to be both Fair and trusted without getting so caught up in the Legal establishment that the Lawyer & Bank fees are unreasonable.

So with ever increasing evidence, both actual and anecdotal, that dealing with the wider marine industry that isn't in your neighbourhood, is fraught with real risk, what is the solution?

Internet commerce is all geared towards talking you globally not locally. Between VPN's and Geomasking, you are doing well not to find yourself in Sham Ally of Alibaba.com. 

I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?

Elsewhere I have seen the forum asking about Money Transfers, and have used Wise successfully. But even having done due diligence, you are contracting one business, for instance UK based and regulated to transfer to their sister Organisation in whatever country - with separate rules and regulations. Both of these Wise companies actually are subsidiaries of their Channel Island organisation. It was never transparent wherethe risk or liability lay at any given point, and more importantly which legal jurisdiction would preside, should god forbid your money goes missing. It didn't, but that is cold comfort.

So spare me the "do your due diligence" speech, related to the "Doh" comments levelled at the Wynne's above. There are and always will be snake oil salesmen around but We can share knowledge and experience here. That is the remaining power of this place.

Has anyone got payment solutions that would negate the problems we are witnessing here?

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13 minutes ago, Boink said:

So with ever increasing evidence, both actual and anecdotal, that dealing with the wider marine industry that isn't in your neighbourhood, is fraught with real risk, what is the solution?

Internet commerce is all geared towards talking you globally not locally. Between VPN's and Geomasking, you are doing well not to find yourself in Sham Ally of Alibaba.com. 

I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?

Elsewhere I have seen the forum asking about Money Transfers, and have used Wise successfully. But even having done due diligence, you are contracting one business, for instance UK based and regulated to transfer to their sister Organisation in whatever country - with separate rules and regulations. Both of these Wise companies actually are subsidiaries of their Channel Island organisation. It was never transparent wherethe risk or liability lay at any given point, and more importantly which legal jurisdiction would preside, should god forbid your money goes missing. It didn't, but that is cold comfort.

So spare me the "do your due diligence" speech, related to the "Doh" comments levelled at the Wynne's above. There are and always will be snake oil salesmen around but We can share knowledge and experience here. That is the remaining power of this place.

Has anyone got payment solutions that would negate the problems we are witnessing here?

If you were cruising I would deal with head office and pay them for delivery to a local dealer.
( how could you possibly know where you can sail to during covid, is that another DOH?)
Local dealer can still get their margin so you get service
This has been done before

 

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I don't know if buying local even helps in this case, if you lived in South Africa and bought sails from a your "local reputable loft" which happened to be wrapped up in this legal mess you'd still get shafted. Great Circle Sails was in my neighborhood. The escrow thing sounds like a good idea. 

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2 hours ago, Boink said:

I asked a serious question, is there escrow type method of proving you are a genuine potential customer, yet having your balance of money held until in receipt of goods?

Does such a service exist?

I used an online escrow service when buying a ~$2000 feathering prop from a guy in Australia.

No idea the name now (this was 2008) but it cost like 75$. Felt better about because I was wiring him the money otherwise. He could have kept it.

I sent the money to the service; the guy sent the prop with signature required via courier; I told the escrow service I got the prop; they released the money to him.

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- like many commentators on this story - there has been a disturbing jump to the side of moral indignation. - I'm in business as an owner - also a long-term sailor - and also someone who has a relationship with a One Sails loft - in another part of the world altogether. With the amount of hate and angst created by Keyboard warriors beggars' belief, this extends to businesses and people that have no relationship and control over any of the events - in another part of the world, Everyone is an armchair expert quite happily poised to throw shit and expert commentary without a clue. One lesson in my commercial life that stands the test of time. There are always three sides to any story - there is but one side here. Personally, I find it a bit rich for the commentariat ( and attendant sympathizers - who are quick to condemn) to be hanging shit on One Sails - whereas as in fact it has been a franchisee with a very long history of dirty dealing that is the root cause. It stands to reason that any competent business is a work in progress. In short when you bang on and smear and attack- those actions will have consequences far and wide.   --   More to the point you guys belong to the sailing community - we all well recognise there have been good guys and bad guys all along.  It would be nice to spike your cannons till you at least know the facts.

 

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1 hour ago, Yachticus said:

- like many commentators on this story - there has been a disturbing jump to the side of moral indignation. - I'm in business as an owner - also a long-term sailor - and also someone who has a relationship with a One Sails loft - in another part of the world altogether. With the amount of hate and angst created by Keyboard warriors beggars' belief, this extends to businesses and people that have no relationship and control over any of the events - in another part of the world, Everyone is an armchair expert quite happily poised to throw shit and expert commentary without a clue. One lesson in my commercial life that stands the test of time. There are always three sides to any story - there is but one side here. Personally, I find it a bit rich for the commentariat ( and attendant sympathizers - who are quick to condemn) to be hanging shit on One Sails - whereas as in fact it has been a franchisee with a very long history of dirty dealing that is the root cause. It stands to reason that any competent business is a work in progress. In short when you bang on and smear and attack- those actions will have consequences far and wide.   --   More to the point you guys belong to the sailing community - we all well recognise there have been good guys and bad guys all along.  It would be nice to spike your cannons till you at least know the facts.

 

I think the general consensus is that after being made aware of the issue/problem One Sails have displayed no good will whatsoever.It may be a rogue operator but if things were going well in the relationship they would be reaping the benefits in royalties and commissions.I don’t know the operator of the local operator of One Sails here but he enjoys an impeccable reputation so I believe Head Office needs to forge a solution even if they don’t have a legal obligation they certainly have a ethical one.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

I used an online escrow service when buying a ~$2000 feathering prop from a guy in Australia.

No idea the name now (this was 2008) but it cost like 75$. Felt better about because I was wiring him the money otherwise. He could have kept it.

I sent the money to the service; the guy sent the prop with signature required via courier; I told the escrow service I got the prop; they released the money to him.

Thanks Z. Any clue as to the name of this service?

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1 hour ago, Rotnest Express said:

I think the general consensus is that after being made aware of the issue/problem One Sails have displayed no good will whatsoever. It may be a rogue operator but if things were going well in the relationship they would be reaping the benefits in royalties and commissions. I don’t know the operator of the local operator of One Sails here but he enjoys an impeccable reputation so I believe Head Office needs to forge a solution even if they don’t have a legal obligation they certainly have a ethical one.

you have no idea what One Sails were doing   - I know for a fact they were mighty pissed off - not only head office - but those lofts who have been looking after their clients working very clean and successful  businesses. there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.  I am not a sail maker  - but I am a business owner - and bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 

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17 minutes ago, Yachticus said:

there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.... 

 

... bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 

First point - it DID make me think - what on earth were OneSails doing getting involved with these crooks.  A franchisor is supposed to do due diligence when signing up a new franchisee.  After all, a bad choice can adversely affect the brand - which you allude to.

Second point - a bit harsh, IMHO.  It's not "bullshit commentary", it's people's reactions to the facts as presented.  If that is "little or any", there is plenty of opportunity for interested parties to put more information into the public domain.  Pretty fucking presumptious (again, IMHO) to describe this as "bullshit commentary" by "ill informed people" ("keyboard warriors") and call it a "bloody disgrace".

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

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1 hour ago, Recidivist said:

First point - it DID make me think - what on earth were OneSails doing getting involved with these crooks.  A franchisor is supposed to do due diligence when signing up a new franchisee.  After all, a bad choice can adversely affect the brand - which you allude to.

Second point - a bit harsh, IMHO.  It's not "bullshit commentary", it's people's reactions to the facts as presented.  If that is "little or any", there is plenty of opportunity for interested parties to put more information into the public domain.  Pretty fucking presumptious (again, IMHO) to describe this as "bullshit commentary" by "ill informed people" ("keyboard warriors") and call it a "bloody disgrace".

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

Need to check but think the injured party was still sending money to The Sailmakers pty ltd after they were no longer a franchisee?
They had friends in SA but didnt get them to go and check??

All the facts have not been presented have they?

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

Need to check but think the injured party was still sending money to The Sailmakers pty ltd after they were no longer a franchisee?
They had friends in SA but didnt get them to go and check??

All the facts have not been presented have they?

They say in the video that they did try to get friends to check on them but no luck.

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8 minutes ago, Steve_sos said:

They say in the video that they did try to get friends to check on them but no luck.

 

8 minutes ago, Steve_sos said:

They say in the video that they did try to get friends to check on them but no luck.

no luck with friends or office shut?

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Hate to say it...

This happens way more often than you might think.  Sail dealers can be some of the shadiest cats on the planet.  

You should always buy from a local sailmaker, not a sail dealer who unpacks boxes and his first look at the sail is moments before yours.  

When the sailmaker's brand name matches the last name of the owner and you can meet that guy, that is the only time you can be sure this stuff won't happen.

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23 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Even better, buy from a local sailmaker while you still can.

yeah, I've bought from local sailmakers. Quality and design were very good, delivery times were laughable. 

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6 hours ago, Yachticus said:

you have no idea what One Sails were doing   - I know for a fact they were mighty pissed off - not only head office - but those lofts who have been looking after their clients working very clean and successful  businesses. there is a very long convoluted history of this franchisee ripping everyone off - not only customers  - but also the OneSails group. this fact alone should make you stop and think a bit.  I am not a sail maker  - but I am a business owner - and bullshit commentary from the sidelines by ill informed people that have little if any of the facts  - "keyboard warriors" if you will are  bloody disgrace. 

So why did One Sails give them a franchise if the loft was known to be dodgy?   A tiger never loses it's stripes as the saying goes.

Nothing but fucking greed to expand their global footprint and that shit is going to stick on them for a long time as the Internet never forgets.

 

I come from the 45 years in the corporate world at fortune 100 companies.

Fastest way to find a career ejector seat in your cubicle is to do ANYTHING that tarnishes the company brand and then not do everything humanly possible to resolve the situation.  Even sat in a customer escalation position which was to resolve such fuck ups on a world wide basis.  We had a saying: "first you fix the customer, then you fix the problem".  There are folks on this web site I would do this for in the background when they had an issue with our products even if there was not a contractual obligation. 

I would immediately contact the customer, apologize and get their side of the story, then call our office or vendor.  Then I would come up with an action plan to make the customer happy and ride herd on the office/vendor/engineering dept until the customer said they were happy.  I would be emailing that customer 1-2 times a week with updates so they knew what was going on.   I also ensured senior management (eg country manager and Hq VP) were aware of the issue and progress to resolve should the customer start making calls.  Made the customer feel empowered and this built a customer for life out of a clusterfuk.

 

Back in the 80s there was a company that ran an ad campaign in the WSJ that said "We hope something is screwed up just so we can show you how much we value your business".

 

The fact One Sails did not get involved until the shit hit the fan shows poor decision making.

Did they immediately have another loft build the sails and eat the cost as goodwill?

Have they terminated the relationship with the loft yet?

Sorry, no free pass...

 

When Hobie Cat came out with the SX18 in 1990, they came with factory sails made by Neil Pride in HK.   Turned out the new fangled laminated sails came apart after a couple sails. Hobie and Neil Pride sprung into action and replaced EVERYONE's sails for free no questions asked as soon as the problem arose. That is how you build a great name.

 

Now retired, I see small business owners fuck up all the time.  Be it garage owners, roofers, plumbers etc.

They forget they are there to provide a good or service to a customer.

They start to believe they are more important than the customer.

And they forget it costs 10x more to find a new customer than to keep a current one.

If you have done it right to address a customer issue, you can respond to any "keyboard warrior" with facts and the Internet is going to side with you.

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, ryley said:

yeah, I've bought from local sailmakers. Quality and design were very good, delivery times were laughable. 

When I was at the Coconut Grove Sailing Club with active racing programs, one local sailmaker named Charlie something could absolutely be counted on ... to be late as shit, jumping aboard a customer's boat minutes before start. No matter, folks were happy to have him aboard and trimming. 

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How much do you think the contract is worth? $15 - 20K    Main, genoa, trampoline, and new stack pack.

How big is their cat?    That coin should only cover the mainsail, if that.   A main, jib and A3 for a 50ft trimaran, 10 years ago was over $45k.

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I learnt from a friend in the South African boating industry that a leading person from within the industry went and spoke to the sailmaker about the non-performance and that the sails were being despatched within the next day or so.

Lets hope all ends well.

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This is sad, having bought many excellent sails over the years from Jan Reuvers, both with Quantum and Ullman.

Not only were they competitively priced, they were delivered on time, and had the best price, performance, durability ratio I've ever seen.

Not sure what happened there, but Jan is a design genius and was for many years a very reputable sail maker in RSA.

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49 minutes ago, Sebyseb said:

This is sad, having bought many excellent sails over the years from Jan Reuvers, both with Quantum and Ullman. Not only were they competitively priced, they were delivered on time, and had the best price, performance, durability ratio I've ever seen.

Yes, it turns out that using others' trade secrets without paying is a good business strategy, until you get found out of course...

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2 hours ago, trisail said:

I learnt from a friend in the South African boating industry that a leading person from within the industry went and spoke to the sailmaker about the non-performance and that the sails were being despatched within the next day or so.

Lets hope all ends well.

This would mean the sails were built but never shipped!?

Or an incredibly fast construction time.

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Sadly I am neither shocked nor surprised at this story. The boating business (like many others) has many bad people. You combine this with "brands" which are actually represented by other local companies/individuals who in turn use other sub contractors/individuals. We may think we are dealing with a substantial/reputable organisation whilst handing over large sums of money but we are not

 

I've bought sails from One Sails UK and met reps of the Italian company who sponsored a Melges 20 event I did. Good sails and good people fortunately unlike the bunch in South Africa 

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22 hours ago, Sailabout said:

because north own all their dealers, dream on, same thing could and has happened to them.

No they do not and that is a FACT.  There are plenty of independent North Lofts.  If you want to get down to the root of the problem go find me a sailmaker.  Not a sales guy but a sailmaker.  Someone who sews like and sweatshop, kicks the stick like a designer, gets the boat around the buoys and shows up to work Monday sober, and I'll show you Santa Clause.     

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1 hour ago, 8:1 said:

No they do not and that is a FACT.  There are plenty of independent North Lofts.  If you want to get down to the root of the problem go find me a sailmaker.  Not a sales guy but a sailmaker.  Someone who sews like and sweatshop, kicks the stick like a designer, gets the boat around the buoys and shows up to work Monday sober, and I'll show you Santa Clause.     

Can I put my hand up? I am a bit fat, Hair is turning grey so is the beard if I don’t shave, but can seem to get deer to fly :)

 

 

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49 minutes ago, usa1136 said:

This story has hints of Evolution Sails Easton back in 2012.  Different year, similar story. 

Happened to North in Asia and they refunded or suppied sails to everyone that had a receipt

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On 11/9/2021 at 9:44 PM, GrandWeasel said:

I have a big problem with people who use their "celebrity," however minor it may be, as leverage in what is essentially a minor contract dispute. I have no idea about the nature of the underlying matter--maybe they did get screwed, maybe there's more to the story.  We'll certainly never know. But, creating and disseminating a video like this is unseemly at best and borders on extortionate at worst. Go get a lawyer like the rest of us.

What celebrity?

Before this thread I’d never heard of these people, and couldn’t care less. Their website shows that they have: (1) an ugly boat, and (2) little sailing experience. No one should be influenced by anything sailing-related that they have to say.

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On 11/11/2021 at 8:13 AM, Recidivist said:

First point - it DID make me think - what on earth were OneSails doing getting involved with these crooks.  A franchisor is supposed to do due diligence when signing up a new franchisee.  After all, a bad choice can adversely affect the brand - which you allude to.

A good franchisor shall in fact do the due diligence...  and should monitor to ensure things are good.

 

McDonald's (regardless of food quality) has one of the best franchise departments, with  Quality Control, ensuring service, meals, bathrooms etc are up to snuff, as well as ensuring location is of benefit.

Franchises should give benefits 3 ways..

  1. Franchise supports Franchisee in Marketing, R&D and Raw Product Quality.
  2. Customer knows that a Franchise is behind the Franchisee, assuring the quality of service/product/experience, as well as backing the customer if there is a failure.
  3. Franchisee supports Franchise by delivering a broader reach to what the Franchise is selling.

 

Too often some people look at how they can make quick money.. 

Making quick money is easy...  and short term. Yet, the consequences of not providing what is needed are long term.

Making money long term is work.. but provides satisfaction to all, and if done properly can be a long term win win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, h20man said:

A good franchisor shall in fact do the due diligence...  and should monitor to ensure things are good.

like McDonalds can get an ice cream machine working in a franchise??

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That's terrible.  I feel for you both.

Not all One Sails franchisees are like that.  My co-owner and I recently ordered a no.1 headsail from One Sails in Perth.  We paid Paul Eldrid 50% up front and 50% on delivery.  It was made promptly and we're loving the new sail.

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Shocking..... A contract with a South African firm in South Africa that is not enforceable. 

I took a look at all of the posts and not one of you thanked Scot Tempesta for his work in allowing the average person to out those who they accuse of wrong doing.  Most sites of any type would be fearful of pissing off a potential advertiser.  Instead someone who IMHO did something foolish and was out a lot of money may have their perceived wrong righted.   

Thank you Scot Tempesta for providing Sailing Anarchy to those who in the past would have had no other recourse. 

 

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