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Will it be one Design hulls for the next AC?


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5 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

So US defenders for decades ruling that boats had to make it to The Cup on their own bottom wasn't a "previous advantage" then?

And, pretty amazing that they could do it, don't ya agree? 

On the other hand, there are 43, Class40's doing it right now (with a crew of two, only). 'On their own bottom', could well make an appearance in future AC Protos. ;-)

 

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9 hours ago, SimonN said:

Try keeping up. I have been talking about the defender writing the design rule. The getting to the cup on their own bottom wasn’t part of the design ruke but was part of the protocol. 

A previous advantage is a previous advantage whichever way the rule granted it to the defender. Whether through the design rule a race rule is little more than semantics.

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9 hours ago, Sailbydate said:

And, pretty amazing that they could do it, don't ya agree? 

On the other hand, there are 43, Class40's doing it right now (with a crew of two, only). 'On their own bottom', could well make an appearance in future AC Protos. ;-)

 

Nothing at all to do with whether they could do it or not. A challenger yacht from the UK had to be build with sufficient scantlings for a North Atlantic crossing while the defender could be little more than a pond yacht with just a short coastal passage to the race course making the challenger a more heavily constructed yacht. They even often sailed across with a reduced rig which then had to be swapped out for the racing rig when they got to the US.

 

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7 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

A previous advantage is a previous advantage whichever way the rule granted it to the defender. Whether through the design rule a race rule is little more than semantics.

They were also towed on their own bottom. No rigging or anything. It's not like they had to sail them.

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9 hours ago, SimonN said:

Try keeping up. I have been talking about the defender writing the design rule. The getting to the cup on their own bottom wasn’t part of the design ruke but was part of the protocol. 

The Defender wrote the class rule because the DoG says they can.

EVERY defender gave themselves an advantage when coming up with the next class of boat. Oracle included.

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31 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

They were also towed on their own bottom. No rigging or anything. It's not like they had to sail them.

Actually, the photos I've seen of them being towed show a cut-down rig for emergency purposes. Ian Dear's excellent book on the J Class has pictures of both Endeavour and Shamrock V with smallish ketch or yawl rigs at the start of and during their passages.

Shamrock is shown under sail in heavy weather in mid-Atlantic. In those conditions, it was apparently safer to free her to sail on her own then be towed.

 

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39 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

EVERY defender gave themselves an advantage when coming up with the next class of boat. Oracle included.

This will only be true until the next event. After that you will need to say for 140 years the defender gave themselves an advantage until TNZ took that choice away from the winner.

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10 hours ago, SimonN said:

Try keeping up. I have been talking about the defender writing the design rule. The getting to the cup on their own bottom wasn’t part of the design ruke but was part of the protocol. 

Deed of Gift, not the Protocol. The Protocol is a modern concept.

The DoG was amended in 1956 to eliminate the "own bottom" provision.

The original wording was:

"Vessels selected to compete for this Cup must proceed under sail on their own bottoms to the port where the contest is to take place."

That same amendment reduced the minimum waterline length for sloops from 65' to 44'.

The order from the court reads:

"NOW, upon motion of Carter, Ledyard and Milburn, attorneys for petitioner, it is

ORDERED that New York Yacht Club, as trustee of the America’s Cup given under the Deed of Gift dated October 24, 1887 made by George L. Schuyler, hereby is directed to administer the said Gift as if said Deed of Gift included no provision requiring yachts or vessels competing for the America’s Cup to sail, on their own bottoms, to the port where the contest is to take place, and as if the minimum load water-line length of the competing yachts or vessels of one mast was thereby required to be forty-four (44) feet."

Both of these changes were made in order for the Cup to transition from big boats to the 12mR class. Without those changes, it is unclear if the Cup ever would have been contested again. The NYYC might well have been content for it to rest forever on its pedestal at 37 W 44th St.

It might have been a fate similar to the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the Ark of the Covenant is crated up and buried in a massive warehouse somewhere.

Thinking of that, it's not a bad analogy. Look at what happened to all of those who sought the power of the Ark in that movie. Hint: it did not end well for them.

Poisoned chalice, indeed.

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

Actually, the photos I've seen of them being towed show a cut-down rig for emergency purposes. Ian Dear's excellent book on the J Class has pictures of both Endeavour and Shamrock V with smallish ketch or yawl rigs at the start of and during their passages.

Shamrock is shown under sail in heavy weather in mid-Atlantic. In those conditions, it was apparently safer to free her to sail on her own then be towed.

 

Nice. For some reason I've never heard of that book.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

The Defender wrote the class rule because the DoG says they can.

EVERY defender gave themselves an advantage when coming up with the next class of boat. Oracle included.

Oracle kind of seems benign compared to the advantages TNZ are giving themselves. 7 month foil arm delay etc. To be fair, worst of the post NYYC era and maybe worse than NYYC.

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9 minutes ago, pusslicker said:

Nice. For some reason I've never heard of that book.

Enterprise to Endeavour, Ian Dear, published 1977. Not a groundbreaking or academic work, but good information and photos.

It also pre-dates the modern interest in restoring boats in the J-class, so is good as an historical document. 

Great photos of some of the Js after their AC and other racing days were over, sometimes going to wrack and ruin. Once photo caption stands out:

"The remains of a beautiful yacht. Though the Maritime Trust are hoping to restore her, Endeavour will never sail again."

How wrong he was, but how true that seemed in 1977!

It didn't take the Maritime Trust. All it took was one American woman with a lot of money and an absolute passion for the boat. You have to give Elizabeth Meyer credit for taking a blowtorch to the tiny flame of interest in big yacht major restoration that was just a flicker in the early 1980s. She not only restored Endeavour, but she was a driving force behind restoring Shamrock V very near to her original configuration.

Anyhow, Dear's book contains a lot of useful information if you are into big boat AC history.

 

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