What kind of Splice...

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Simple question... what kind of splice is used to attach a line to a shackle or, in my case, a traveler car?

I don't want to make an eye splice and then lugage tag it.

A youtube video link will get ya bonus points.

Thanks,

[floater 696]

if non-cored dyneema, then mobius brummel, maybe.

[Somebody Else 893]

Depends on what material the line is made from and how it's constructed.

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

yeah, sorry for leaving out that important point: 12 strand class two line (Control DPX). Don't want to luggage tag it because this is for a coninous traveler control line.

[El Borracho 2,628]

Both ends connect to traveler car but no eye-splice? Confused. Is the actual issue that the traveler has closed eyes that the line must be spliced thru…no pin?

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

All will be clear after seeing this sweeeet diagram. 

 

[El Borracho 2,628]

Will the turning blocks pass the thickness of a long bury? If not then a Cow Hitch with the tail lashed would work. Or a small shackle. Even a stopper knot could work. 

[TJSoCal 274]

Integrated soft shackle on one or both ends would probably work:

https://youtu.be/PnYfCxocZNk

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Part of the burry will go through the turning block, but with a taper, it shouldn't be an issue.

But I'm starting to understand that you can't do captive splices on both ends of a rope. Maybe the cleanest method is a mobius brummel on one side and a stopper knot on the other.

Just purchased a set of fids and am looking to get rid of as many knots on the boat as possible.

Thanks, 

[TJSoCal 274]

6 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

Part of the burry will go through the turning block, but with a taper, it shouldn't be an issue.

But I'm starting to understand that you can't do captive splices on both ends of a rope. Maybe the cleanest method is a mobius brummel on one side and a stopper knot on the other.

Just purchased a set of fids and am looking to get rid of as many knots on the boat as possible.

Thanks, 

Long bury eyes on the traveler car bails on both ends. No luggage tag or brummel needed.

It's my understanding that brummel eyes are weaker than long bury eyes, but in any case strength isn't really an issue in this application. You can whip or stitch the bury to ensure the eye doesn't come undone.

[gullwinkle 31]

Measure the line and have your sailmaker make you one. If you have a sailmaker!

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

TJ, so a long burry splice (basically a Chinese Finger Trap) is strong enough? That's certainly the easiest solution.

So how long is a long burry? I ask because even with a brummel, the tail is burried 50-72 times the diameter. Do you burry even more? and if not, why ever do a brummel if just burrying works well enough?

So, gullwinkle, your solution is to just have someone else do it? Wow, why didn't I think of that... Fucking nitwit. 

 

[JohnMB 560]

Brumel is to stop the splice loosening when not under load. You can bury and stitch . In fact Samson recommended splice for 12 strand class II appears to be bury and stitch anyway.

https://samsonrope.com/docs/default-source/splice-instructions/12strand_c2_eye_splice_web.pdf?sfvrsn=f00ad20c_2

[Alex W 342]

I also use Control DPX for our traveler.  I did direct bury splices that are sewn and then attach it with a soft shackle.  
 

I direct spliced last time, but this makes it a lot easier to wash the line. 

I’ve mostly stopped doing Brummell splices. Direct bury is stronger and easier to fine tune the length. 

[mgs 211]

Bury and stitching/whipping. 
 

three fid lengths and a short fid, or 72 times the diameter 

[TJSoCal 274]

17 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

TJ, so a long burry splice (basically a Chinese Finger Trap) is strong enough? That's certainly the easiest solution.

So how long is a long burry? I ask because even with a brummel, the tail is burried 50-72 times the diameter. Do you burry even more? and if not, why ever do a brummel if just burrying works well enough?

So, gullwinkle, your solution is to just have someone else do it? Wow, why didn't I think of that... Fucking nitwit. 

 

If I recall the standard recommendation for a long bury is 72x but that's probably more than you need for a fairly low-load application like you're talking about. And as mentioned the brummel (which actually reduces strength) is just to keep it from opening up when not under load so the same thing can be accomplished with a proper stitching (if strength is important) or a stitched whipping at the throat (if you're not as worried about breaking strength). Even a fairly short long bury will almost certainly be stronger than a knot.

[floater 696]

49 minutes ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

But I'm starting to understand that you can't do captive splices on both ends of a rope. Maybe the cleanest method is a mobius brummel on one side and a stopper knot on the other.

I guess the mobius brummel exists to splice onto captive eyes - on both ends. This is what my lifelines look like.

I am no rigger, but I can't imagine sewing a bury if you can just do a brummel and be done with it. Relative strength is completely beside the point in this context. As is the length of the taper given the "lock" of the brummel does just that. the brummel is ideal for a short taper, but you can make the taper as long as you want. ymmv.

[JohnMB 560]

8 minutes ago, floater said:

I guess the mobius brummel exists to splice onto captive eyes - on both ends. This is what my lifelines look like.

I am no rigger, but I can't imagine sewing a bury if you can just do a brummel and be done with it. Relative strength is completely beside the point in this context. As is the length of the taper given the "lock" of the brummel does just that. the brummel is ideal for a short taper, but you can make the taper as long as you want. ymmv.

I keep a needle and tread with my splicing kit, lock stitching is quick and easy, its only a pain if you have to go find the extra kit. But yes Brummel is quick and neat, and saves any sewing.

The 'lock' on the Brummel should not be transferring any load between the eye and the tail, this should all transfer through the bury.

[Snaggletooth 5,171]

Thisse wholle threades hasse beene a rorschocke teste, youre respose revealles what you our and what you wantne to be..............        sorrey           

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Thanks for the input and recomendations guys. Sounds like a couple burry splices will work fine.

[Snaggletooth 5,171]

See?  Teste overe.............                             

[Rain Man 1,972]

This line will be sized for comfort and grip for the main trimmer, and strength will not be the issue.  Any line sized for good grip will exceed the strength needed by a factor of 100 or so.

I would do a brummel with a good taper and shorter than usual bury rather than a straight long bury.  With a brummel there is no way it is coming apart unless it is abused somehow, and there should be a brummel to lock it anyway because it will be unloaded at times.   Brummel one end and mobius the other end is my vote.

The shorter than usual bury will make it easier to bring the traveller all the way up in light air, and prevent it from being stuck at the bottom when it is all the way down.

I would try to splice it directly to the car rather than use a shackle, to get more travel on the traveller, keep more of the bury out of the block, and to prevent damage to the sides of the coaming from the shackle if the car slams to one side for some reason.  

Or just tie the line onto the loops on the car with a clove hitch and a couple hitches for mom.  Strength is not the issue here.

If small line is being used here to save weight and/or to enable the use of tiny blocks, at the expense of convenience for the trimmer, please buy him or her a beer at the bar next time you are there.

[Grizz 155]

6 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Or just tie the line onto the loops on the car with a clove hitch and a couple hitches for mom.  Strength is not the issue here.

We use a buntline hitch for this- it keeps the tail perpendicular to the traveler car if it slams over- er, I mean if it is vigorously eased.

[floater 696]

17 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Thisse wholle threades hasse beene a rorschocke teste, youre respose revealles what you our and what you wantne to be..............        sorrey           

yurre correcte, iee cannotte sewwe..

[Slick470 244]

Same boat and probably the same hardware. I thought about splices here, but I just use as tight of a bowline that I can tie to each side of the car. The distance between the stopper on each end of the traveler and the turning block is enough that I don't lose any range of motion. Plus I can easily remove the line in the winter and replace it with out going through a lot of effort. 

Just a thought.

[floater 696]

8 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Brummel one end and mobius the other end is my vote.

I guess the critical bit we are missing here is the hardware being spliced to. because the mobius requires the long dimension of the "hardware" to rotate through the eye, and the entire hardware piece itself to pass through a gap spread in the line. So, because we haven't seen the traveller car - or more importantly - the eyes on the car being spliced to. it is kind of tough to second guess the OP's conclusion. somehow, the eyes on the car must disassemble, but no way the brummel gonna swallow the whole thing.. or maybe..

[Slick470 244]

Not the greatest picture, but this is what came standard on these boats. Harken traveler car late 80's early 90's. So unless Pokey or a PO has upgraded, then this is probably what he has. 

You tie or splice the ends of your traveler line to the little metal loop on top of the block. I've been wary about taking out those machine screws that hold everything down, but if whatever those thread into is captive, then taking off the loops, doing your splices and then putting it back together wouldn't be too bad. I've just used knots. 

[El Borracho 2,628]

52 minutes ago, Slick470 said:

Same boat and probably the same hardware. I thought about splices here, but I just use as tight of a bowline that I can tie to each side of the car. The distance between the stopper on each end of the traveler and the turning block is enough that I don't lose any range of motion. Plus I can easily remove the line in the winter and replace it with out going through a lot of effort. 

Just a thought.

Yes, that is more like my philosophy. Keep it simple - replace the line frequently. Investing in fancy splices only reinforces the tendency to put up with a 10-year-old tired and rock-hard line. But if one has the time for the splicing and what looks like about 30 dollars of extra line length....

[JohnMB 560]

36 minutes ago, El Borracho said:

Yes, that is more like my philosophy. Keep it simple - replace the line frequently. Investing in fancy splices only reinforces the tendency to put up with a 10-year-old tired and rock-hard line. But if one has the time for the splicing and what looks like about 30 dollars of extra line length....

Um, assuming 3/8 (seems unlikely to be larger) line  72X is 27in... less than 5ft for 2 splices, and a shorter bury (which should be adequate for the expected loads) will be even less.  If you're paying $30 for 5ft of line you need to find a new supplier. As for the time, I find splicing therapeutic, so saving psychiatrist fees is a bonus.

Though for this application i would probably keep it simple, looking at the car photo posted I would probably be using a stopper knot myself.

[Wright Way 202]

Why dyneema?

When you slam your traveller over, which does happen sometimes despite everyone's best intentions, a little bit of give might be nice.

Bit of double braid poly with a knot works for me.

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Again, thanks for the input, much of which came in after I did the deed.

As Slick's photo shows, the loop on the traveler is fixed. Since, I couldn't see how Brummel or mobius would work on both ends of the line, I did simple long burry tapered splices with about a 1/4 inch of whipping.

Even though this was my first try at splicing, each side took less than ten minutes. I buried about 8 inches of the tapered tail, of which the final 4 inches goes through the turning block with no problem.

I'll take a photo tomorrow, but I'm happy with the end product.

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

23 hours ago, Wright Way said:

Why dyneema?

When you slam your traveller over, which does happen sometimes despite everyone's best intentions, a little bit of give might be nice.

Bit of double braid poly with a knot works for me.

Why Dyneema?

I get what you're saying about the benefits of using low tech (stretchy) line on the traveler to reduce shock loading during a hard jibe.

But that same stretch would cause the traveler to drop an inch or so when a puff hits, thereby depowering the main, rather than turning the pressure into boat speed.

Yeah, we're probably talking 1/100th of a percentage point in boat speed. But isn't that what optimizing your boat is all about...  

 

[Slick470 244]

Pokey, I'll be interested to hear your experience with the long splice going through the blocks and if it causes you any issues.

I've always just used knots and I have just used polyester double braid. Next time I replace it, I'll probably look for something a size larger and has better feel though and the control DPX was on my "look into" list. 

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

Hey Slick, I'll try to get to the boat before dark tonight to get a photo. But only a few inches of the buried line goes through the block and it's taped down significantly. 

If you're interested in some Control DPX, Mauri Pro Sailing has red or green 1/4" for the crazy low price of $0.87/foot until it runs out. I think it normally costs over $2/foot.

[Irrational 14 416]

On 11/14/2021 at 9:02 AM, Wright Way said:

Why dyneema?

When you slam your traveller over, which does happen sometimes despite everyone's best intentions, a little bit of give might be nice.

Bit of double braid poly with a knot works for me.

Since the Dyneema has no core, its much more flexible and thinner diameter. That means is runs way better thru the turns than any poly braid. Lighter, stronger, less water retention, and much more reactive to your trimming. Just make sure that whatever comes in contact with a cleat and your hands has some cover on it. Pretty much everything is tapered Dyneema on the boats I sail, even the travelers.

 

[Left Shift 3,617]

1 hour ago, Irrational 14 said:

Since the Dyneema has no core, its much more flexible and thinner diameter. That means is runs way better thru the turns than any poly braid. Lighter, stronger, less water retention, and much more reactive to your trimming. Just make sure that whatever comes in contact with a cleat and your hands has some cover on it. Pretty much everything is tapered Dyneema on the boats I sail, even the travelers.

 

The primary test for travelers is flexibility for going around blocks, chafe resistance at the cleat, and hand comfort for tugging on repeatedly.  Traveller lines are rarely tested at high loads.  I usually do trial flexibility tests in the rope store and pick the wiggliest one.  Dyneema is great if the layout allows you to keep the covered section out of the purchases.  

The type of splice at the car is low priority, except you don't want to be pulling a stiff long-bury splice through a turning block.

[Mike G 2,240]

11 hours ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

Why Dyneema?

I get what you're saying about the benefits of using low tech (stretchy) line on the traveler to reduce shock loading during a hard jibe.

But that same stretch would cause the traveler to drop an inch or so when a puff hits, thereby depowering the main, rather than turning the pressure into boat speed.

Yeah, we're probably talking 1/100th of a percentage point in boat speed. But isn't that what optimizing your boat is all about...  

 

Slight Hijack..but....isn't easing in a puff fast?  Wouldn't a little 'give' in the traveler be the same as easing the traveler down an inch or so?

 

[Wright Way 202]

Picking up the bit of your mainsheet block and traveller anchor points off the cockpit floor after a unplanned gybe isn't very fast either. 

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

So here's a short video of the final product. You can see not much of the bury runs through the block and there's no noticeable drag.

 

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

By the way, the yellow mainsheet is Samson Apex a fuzzy single braid Dyneema blend, now discontinued. My favorite line for mainsheets and I'm bummed that it's no longer produced. Only similar product in their current lineup is the Control DPX.

[Slick470 244]

Nice Pokey. I was going to ask about the 1/4" inch for that line. If I recall correctly mine is 5/16" Sta-Set and I'd like to go up a size for a bit better feel. I'm usually doublehanding when racing so I'm often trimming main while driving and I'd like something a bit larger and maybe softer? for when the wind picks up. I think my loop is on the long side too, I just haven't decided on how much shorter I want to make it.

Under our usual lighter conditions on the Chesapeake, the line I have now is just fine though. 

The guy I bought my boat from couldn't figure out how to get to the back of one of the cam cleats to replace or rebuild it so had the traveler line loop as tight as he could get it and relied on friction to keep things mostly where they should be. It wasn't great, but it did mostly work. 

[some dude 201]

On 11/13/2021 at 11:52 AM, Pokey uh da LBC said:

All will be clear after seeing this sweeeet diagram. 

 

Your trav is 1:1?  Damn. You got Chuck Norris trimming main?  He could just scare the car into holding onto the end of the line. 

[Pokey uh da LBC 78]

19 minutes ago, some dude said:

Your trav is 1:1?  Damn. You got Chuck Norris trimming main?  He could just scare the car into holding onto the end of the line. 

No, that was a simplified version. check the video for the actual purchase.

[some dude 201]

Ok. Whew.  

What about splicing it right onto the eye without luggage tagging it?  Bonus-you get to hang out on the boat while you do it. 

[TJSoCal 274]

9 hours ago, Pokey uh da LBC said:

So here's a short video of the final product. You can see not much of the bury runs through the block and there's no noticeable drag.

 

Might want to watch for chafe at the eye splices - those padeye edges look a little sharp.