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Homeless. Ideas?


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8 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

I agree with virtually everything you posted and I’d have liked your post if you had included CNN et al with Fox News because those lot are the other cheek  of the same arse.

I don't watch TV news left or right, They all seem to have to put a spin on the news, How about just the facts, I guess that what happens when their on 24/7. Remember the old days . Local news twice a day for 1/2hour and the same for national news and you only had 3 channels to watch ,ABC,NBC & CBS,

Glad you like the post , have a good T-day, 

My good friend is from up your way , we spent the last couples weeks Kayaking down my way

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8 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

I agree with virtually everything you posted and I’d have liked your post if you had included CNN et al with Fox News because those lot are the other cheek  of the same arse.

 

 

Edit to add: 

Laziness can be fixed by education and or good 

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

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1 minute ago, quod umbra said:

you are completely brainwashed if you do not think nor see that CNN, MSNBC are just as twisted, if not more so, than other media outlets.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and remember, you are what you eat.

As I said, CNN and MSNBC and other channels do have entire series of shows devoted to fictional slander; nor hosts/anchors who are famous for the outrageousness of the lies they constantly spew. None of them have BEEN IN COURT over damaging slander and claimed that their statements should not be taken seriously.

That is fact.

Now, goeth thou and haveth a Happy Thanksgiving, too

- DSK

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17 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

You don't fix the bottom rung of the ladder by cutting off the top rungs. You fix the bottom rung by providing the opportunity to achieve the American Dream.

To me, that is the difference between left and right in America. The left promotes/endorses/pimps that some people are worthless and thus must be supported by society. The right, well the right sucks because they are completely in effective at laying out a vision and developing policy that sees those less fortunate succeed.

The solution is education 

don’t make babies when you are 16 years old 

dont make babies unless your family unit is long term durable 

don’t do drugs 

pay attention in school, take life seriously 

 

1213F16D-F3D1-4FAA-AC1E-D765D33BB0CB.jpeg

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33 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The solution is education  Probably, but we don't know how to reach/teach the most affected people. QED.

don’t make babies when you are 16 years old Makes sense to most people but the poor --all colors--apparently disagree looking at the results. The poor have heard of prophylactics but don't like or use them ... just like the rest of us.

dont make babies unless your family unit is long term durable I think one of the very last things on the minds of lusty teenagers is the durability of the family unit. 

don’t do drugs Sure Jan. Or booze or cigarettes. Do as I do is reality

pay attention in school, take life seriously It's far more likely that children will copy what they see as successful behavior around them. 

 

No offense intended Slug but what we need are workable/doable/possible things. 

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12 hours ago, Not for nothing said:

If this country is the greatest country in the world why are there Homeless? Oh I thought the 45th had MAGA, to fix this problem? Oh him and his current/past family had that fixed , as SLUM lords, apartments with no heat , A/c, running water. Are these people homeless?

I think today's homeless is way different today then in the past. for one affordable housing doesn't exist, Price a house lately? lack of good paying jobs wait staff restaurant workers make 3-4 dollars an hour with no benefits   Health care doesn't exist for mid and low paying jobs , both physical & mental, Single moms force to have babies with no income, #1 in Infant deaths.( go Texas ) Lack of good education for all, we are something like 8th in the free world..

People have 3 &4 multimillion $$$ houses  and others live in cardboard boxes GO MAGA 

The problem with the homeless thing is everyone wants to talk about what they are going to do, but no one wants to do something about it.  And when someone does do something the activist step in and scream to the high heavens that what is being done is inhumane and cruel.

Yea, like letting people live in squalor and being subjected to daily abuse from others is real fucking humane. 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

you are completely brainwashed if you do not think nor see that CNN, MSNBC are just as twisted, if not more so, than other media outlets.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving and remember, you are what you eat.

Examples? Who on CNN or MSNBC are lying, treasonous fucksticks, like Carlson and Hannity?

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

You don't fix the bottom rung of the ladder by cutting off the top rungs. You fix the bottom rung by providing the opportunity to achieve the American Dream.

To me, that is the difference between left and right in America. The left promotes/endorses/pimps that some people are worthless and thus must be supported by society. The right, well the right sucks because they are completely in effective at laying out a vision and developing policy that sees those less fortunate succeed.

They don’t lay out a policy as they really don’t give a shit.

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

Obviously you never encountered the big titted bimbo with the degree in, oh I don’t know, being able to look pretty and write  her own name and who makes a spectacular living out of flirting with fat, bald old doctors with the sole purpose of persuading said doctors to prescribe narcotics to the vulnerable…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

agree and disagree, your right about doctors prescribing , but The bad product "Oxy" was made by the Big Pharma, which did all the lobbing to push it thru, then all they Product all the phony ads , and gave the doctors kick backs for prescribing it. I think the Schackle family and the company I believe Perdue Pharm had to pay massive fines , When my 2nd wife died from it as she was addicted to it, They gave me a big $15,000 dollar check for wrongful death. So I know little more then most on the subject first hand.

I love the TV ads with all the side effects ,and the last one  "including death"

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

You don't fix the bottom rung of the ladder by cutting off the top rungs. You fix the bottom rung by providing the opportunity to achieve the American Dream.

To me, that is the difference between left and right in America. The left promotes/endorses/pimps that some people are worthless and thus must be supported by society. The right, well the right sucks because they are completely in effective at laying out a vision and developing policy that sees those less fortunate succeed.

The problem is the top rung wants to own the whole ladder ,their the ones that have to put their money into the ladder If they don't  fix the ladder the results might not be very pretty. How much did mr Amazon pay in taxes last year ? 000000000000.00 

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6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

What Big Pharma is on the hook for is telling docs the shit was non-addictive. Hence the huge mea-culpa payouts. 

 

 If the problem was just drugs it would be easier to fix, but it isn't. 

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8 minutes ago, Mark K said:
6 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

What Big Pharma is on the hook for is telling docs the shit was non-addictive. Hence the huge mea-culpa payouts. 

 

 If the problem was just drugs it would be easier to fix, but it isn't. 

It wasn't doctors who shipped 81 million Oxy pills to one small city. https://www.npr.org/2021/07/30/1021676306/was-it-reasonable-to-ship-81-million-opioid-pills-to-this-small-west-virginia-ci

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9 hours ago, quod umbra said:

You don't fix the bottom rung of the ladder by cutting off the top rungs. You fix the bottom rung by providing the opportunity to achieve the American Dream.

 

Rich pay no taxes , so I guess nothing supporting the top rung?

Think Elites Are SCAMMING You? WATCH THIS!!! - YouTube

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On 11/25/2021 at 5:21 AM, Not for nothing said:

I don't watch TV news left or right, They all seem to have to put a spin on the news, How about just the facts, I guess that what happens when their on 24/7. Remember the old days . Local news twice a day for 1/2hour and the same for national news and you only had 3 channels to watch ,ABC,NBC & CBS,

I do think the 24/7 news cycle has a lot to do with where we've gotten to.  Too much time to not have to make up shit to fill the dead time.  Also they are competing to outcrazy social media and bloggers.  Any more now, on the big cable news networks - i.e. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, etc..... actual "news" is a sideshow.  Opinion and Bullshit is what sells ads, buys air time, and gets eyeballs.

We have met the enemy and they are us.  If y'all that said all you want is the facts were being honest - you would tune into PBS Newshour and listen to the national news 5 min clips on NPR throughout the day.  You don't because none of you are actually being honest.  You WANT those BS "news" networks to tell you what to think.  You WANT them to make you outraged.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. 

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On 11/24/2021 at 7:53 PM, Not for nothing said:

I think today's homeless is way different today then in the past. for one affordable housing doesn't exist, Price a house lately? lack of good paying jobs wait staff restaurant workers make 3-4 dollars an hour with no benefits   Health care doesn't exist for mid and low paying jobs , both physical & mental, Single moms force to have babies with no income, #1 in Infant deaths.( go Texas ) Lack of good education for all, we are something like 8th in the free world.

It seems that way.  I remember homelessness in NYC in the 1990s, this seems a whole different animal.  Back then, there, the homeless were often emotionally ill, disproportionately people of color, and they could sleep in the subway to keep from freezing to death. NYC and a few other places became destinations for homeless to survive. 

But this is new ...

These homeless are not necessarily from "abroad" but people who grew up here and in Wyoming.  (Some of them came up through the same Denver Public School System that I did.) And yes, undoubtedly emotional illness, some major substance abuse, but it seems as often (almost exclusively so with the ones to whom I speak) just legal weed and no possible ability to pull $1k/month for a place to live, the costs here have become exorbitant. They end up couch-surfing for a year or two until the largesse wears out, and then at some point they have to survive these Colorado winter nights, with the police making it as difficult as they can for them to keep the property owner of the million dollar home across from the park happy. 

One guy I knew got a year for felony trespass when he crawled into the vestibule of a closed and soon-to-be redeveloped restaurant, in an attempt to keep from freezing to death. Added to his two desk-appearance tickets for riding the light rail without fare, he can now never realistically get a driver's license.  He takes the bus up to Blackhawk for some minimum wage cleaning job and last we spoke he lives in a tent on some land near the rail spur. In his case, as in many others, it isn't drugs or illness, it's the crushing economy that has people secretly living in storage lockers.

The city does seem to attempt to bus them to warmer cities, but these are their homes, whatever is left of them. 

The lack of family for many seems to remove the safety net. And those with homes buy without family become predated upon by the State in the probate system. 

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40 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

I do think the 24/7 news cycle has a lot to do with where we've gotten to.  Too much time to not have to make up shit to fill the dead time.  Also they are competing to outcrazy social media and bloggers.  Any more now, on the big cable news networks - i.e. Fox, CNN, MSNBC, etc..... actual "news" is a sideshow.  Opinion and Bullshit is what sells ads, buys air time, and gets eyeballs.

We have met the enemy and they are us.  If y'all that said all you want is the facts were being honest - you would tune into PBS Newshour and listen to the national news 5 min clips on NPR throughout the day.  You don't because none of you are actually being honest.  You WANT those BS "news" networks to tell you what to think.  You WANT them to make you outraged.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. 

Who’s this You? I get all my pointers on current events here then hit the NYT, SFGate, etc (basically AP repeats)

a half hour of Morning Edition is the closest I get to broadcast  “mass” media. Only about 14m listeners to MornEd

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1 hour ago, Nice! said:

 

So much ignorance here. Including anybody who posts this.

I’ve encountered many panhandlers on the street. I’ve offered a few part time work.

They all refused which unfortunately for you won’t fit your pathetic narrative.


 

 

I don’t think it’s ignorance that afflicts you but rather, stupidity.

 

Do you understand the difference?

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56 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

I’ve encountered many panhandlers on the street. I’ve offered a few part time work.

They all refused which unfortunately for you won’t fit your pathetic narrative.


 

 

I don’t think it’s ignorance that afflicts you but rather, stupidity.

 

Do you understand the difference?

More ignorance. Talk to a mental health professional about addiction and homelessness. You'll learn some things that will change your views.

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6 hours ago, Burning Man said:

 

We have met the enemy and they are us. 

Good point!

 

6 hours ago, mikewof said:

These homeless are not necessarily from "abroad" but people who grew up here and in Wyoming. Florida

 

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8 hours ago, mikewof said:

The lack of family for many seems to remove the safety net. And those with homes buy without family become predated upon by the State in the probate system. 

The street becomes their family.  And they resist relocation the same way and elderly person resists assisted living.  Its hard to give up your home, even if its a shithole.

Until someone comes up with a Pinocchio test to separate the 'deserving' from the 'scammers', there's really only two choices:  Take care of everyone's immediate needs and try and change their trajectory (knowing that you're going to be helping 'deadbeats") or let them all sort it out, pool cue style (knowing that 'innocent people' are going to lose those fights sometimes).

 

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4 hours ago, BeSafe said:

there's really only two choices:  Take care of everyone's immediate needs and try and change their trajectory (knowing that you're going to be helping 'deadbeats") or let them all sort it out, pool cue style (knowing that 'innocent people' are going to lose those fights sometimes).

Thus far, there's never been enough help/housing/sustenance/employment/healthcare that lasts long enough to get back to a sustained healthy lifestyle for a significant # of people. And the future looks bleaker than that. All the rose-colored outlooks cannot change a thing for the ever-expanding low/no income group. We -- as a species -- need to face up to it. 

That leaves the alternative. 

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14 hours ago, Nice! said:

So much ignorance here. Including anybody who posts this.

Ah ... the lofty, down your nose view of pragmatism.

Ah ... the purity of knowing what's really the right path of and for human love and kindness. ~10,000 years of watching human behavior hasn't taught you a thing sir or madam.

Yet you call others ignorant. 

;) 

Sure, Jan.

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Just now, Blue Crab said:

Ah ... the lofty, down your nose view of pragmatism.

Ah ... the purity of knowing what's really the right path of and for human love and kindness. ~10,000 years of watching human behavior hasn't taught you a thing sir or madam.

Yet you call others ignorant. 

;) 

Sure, Jan.

Ok boomer.

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This is the reason why we need abortion to be legal, more than ever. Only parents that truly want to raise children, should have children. This would go a long way to prevent people from becoming homeless. Addiction and mental problems, usually start early in life. If our very pious, conservatives really want to do good work, they could be like Jesus and try to help the poor and helpless. We are all in this together, whether you like it or not. 

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15 hours ago, Sea warrior said:

I’ve encountered many panhandlers on the street. I’ve offered a few part time work.

They all refused which unfortunately for you won’t fit your pathetic narrative.

We have a few folks who stand in the median of the street on which I live.  Holding cardboard signs, they simply ask for help.  We have brought them food and sat to talk with them.  Usually one of my children asks if we can help. On those occasions, we package up the food and bring it to them, offering to talk if they would like.  Most of the time, they are happy to have human-human interaction.

I have no doubt some (most?, all?) of the money folks give them goes to drugs.  The signs are certainly there.  But, they are always cheerful and appreciative when someone takes the time to see them, and engage with them.  

I have no idea what brought them to being on that median, and shudder to think we are headed into winter when they live in a tent, under a highway overpass.  I don't suggest these folks are representative of the entirety of panhandlers/homeless.  Just an observation from our interactions.

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15 hours ago, Nice! said:

More ignorance. Talk to a mental health professional about addiction and homelessness. You'll learn some things that will change your views.

 

3 hours ago, Nice! said:

Ok boomer.

I remember not too long ago that you were whinging about posters not wanting to discuss the topic.

 

Any chance you do a little self reflection ?
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

We have a few folks who stand in the median of the street on which I live.  Holding cardboard signs, they simply ask for help.  We have brought them food and sat to talk with them.  Usually one of my children asks if we can help. On those occasions, we package up the food and bring it to them, offering to talk if they would like.  Most of the time, they are happy to have human-human interaction.

I have no doubt some (most?, all?) of the money folks give them goes to drugs.  The signs are certainly there.  But, they are always cheerful and appreciative when someone takes the time to see them, and engage with them.  

I have no idea what brought them to being on that median, and shudder to think we are headed into winter when they live in a tent, under a highway overpass.  I don't suggest these folks are representative of the entirety of panhandlers/homeless.  Just an observation from our interactions.

I understand your position and I’m sure that there are some who are in desperate need through no fault of their own and those I will gladly help.

But those who are unwilling to address the underlying causes of their problems get little sympathy from me.

My father didn’t allow me to run from my failings and I don’t allow my children to make excuses for their failings.

 

This country is teaming full of opportunities for those who are willing to work hard and if you don’t believe that then ask yourself why so many are willing to risk life and limb to come here to avail themselves of those opportunities.
But the reality is that many homeless people are unwilling to make changes or commit to hard work.

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On 11/14/2021 at 10:46 PM, BeSafe said:

 

Logistically, I think old Malls would work well.

They're contained with HVAC, loading docks, plumbing etc.  They're almost always on public transportation lines. They have loading docks for freight and good public access.

Restructure the inner layout of the individual stores to accommodate smaller groups in apartment-lite clusters.  Use the anchor store space to provide medical services (including detox), social workers/legal services, and policing/fire services.  I would include a small school, vocational training, and adult job training.  Add in a small grocery store, pharmacy, and post office/banking services, and that would cover most of the hierarchy of need issues.

Most malls had some form of entertainment (movies and play areas) as well as cafeteria type food services.  So there's decent activities to reduce boredom and mischief.

I'd keep the focus on transitioning - get people stable, address their immediate short/medium term problems (4-8 weeks) and hopefully, transition them to permanent solutions, depending on their true issues.  There could also be some limited jobs including custodial services, stocking / service jobs, and maybe even some warehouse functions since these old malls often share space with fulfillment centers.

Reasonable idea - but guessing these malls are mainly where there is not a population of homeless?

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9 hours ago, BeSafe said:

The street becomes their family.  And they resist relocation the same way and elderly person resists assisted living.  Its hard to give up your home, even if its a shithole.

Until someone comes up with a Pinocchio test to separate the 'deserving' from the 'scammers', there's really only two choices:  Take care of everyone's immediate needs and try and change their trajectory (knowing that you're going to be helping 'deadbeats") or let them all sort it out, pool cue style (knowing that 'innocent people' are going to lose those fights sometimes).

 

Yeah, that is their family, those people who live near them.  Those are the people who love them enough to share their meager gains for the day. 

The idea of the State replacing the family will always seem ridiculous to those who have actual families, and impossible for those who don't. It comes to money, as always ... the elderly who have property but no family will find the State eager to assume that role, made possible by a 20 minute interview that takes away their rights via "cognitive deficiencies." And those who have nothing will rarely if ever find the State a willing partner in their survival ... more like bulldozers when they get a little too comfortable.

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25 minutes ago, MKF said:

Reasonable idea - but guessing these malls are mainly where there is not a population of homeless?

Around here, it is barely an option, the "abandoned" malls sit on sufficiently valuable land that their redevelopment is often just months away. 

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55 minutes ago, MKF said:
On 11/14/2021 at 10:46 AM, BeSafe said:

Logistically, I think old Malls would work well.

They're contained with HVAC, loading docks, plumbing etc.  They're almost always on public transportation lines. They have loading docks for freight and good public access.

Restructure the inner layout of the individual stores to accommodate smaller groups in apartment-lite clusters.  Use the anchor store space to provide medical services (including detox), social workers/legal services, and policing/fire services.  I would include a small school, vocational training, and adult job training.  Add in a small grocery store, pharmacy, and post office/banking services, and that would cover most of the hierarchy of need issues.

Most malls had some form of entertainment (movies and play areas) as well as cafeteria type food services.  So there's decent activities to reduce boredom and mischief.

I'd keep the focus on transitioning - get people stable, address their immediate short/medium term problems (4-8 weeks) and hopefully, transition them to permanent solutions, depending on their true issues.  There could also be some limited jobs including custodial services, stocking / service jobs, and maybe even some warehouse functions since these old malls often share space with fulfillment centers.

Expand  

Expand  

Reasonable idea - but guessing these malls are mainly where there is not a population of homeless?

I think the main problem with malls is the lack of windows and fresh air, both of which contribute to serenity and mental health. Putting a bunch of homeless into a  windowless space is probably the worst thing for them long-term.

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1 hour ago, Sea warrior said:

 

I remember not too long ago that you were whinging about posters not wanting to discuss the topic.

 

Any chance you do a little self reflection ?

lol

I have discussed the topic plenty in this thread. My views are not secret. But you'll have to go back to read them to see what they are.

And to correct you, my "whinging" was about posters distracting from the topic by introducing whataboutisms, bothsidisms, and in some cases, completely different topics.

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2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I think the main problem with malls is the lack of windows and fresh air, both of which contribute to serenity and mental health. Putting a bunch of homeless into a  windowless space is probably the worst thing for them long-term.

Not all malls are that bad :)  The homeless shelters that I've worked in haven't exactly been the most airy and peaceful places on earth, either.

To me, there's a couple of salient issues.

The first is what I posted earlier - people have to commit to a view.  Either you have to commit to helping people and accept that some deadbeats are going to get through or you have to let people fend for themselves, and accept that some actually innocent people are going to get hurt.  I find this no different than capital punishment - if you have capital punishment, there's always a chance an innocent person is going to be put to death.  That means taking the utilitarian point of view that that is 'necessary 'in terms of the greater good.  The same applies to homelessness.  I don't believe in Pinocchio tests - I believe in probability. 

IF you commit to helping the poor, you have two immediate barriers.  1)  NIMBY.  People don't 'those people' in their neighborhood.  There's lot of places where homeless shelters are quite a bit away from where homeless people actually tend to congregate.  Just depends on the local geography and policing.  2)  Fear of "Permanent" encampments.  This goes along with NIMBY.  If you make a situation 'comfortable', people don't want to leave.  Pretty soon, you have a permanent housing situation.  This is a very common problem in refugee camps - people in the camps aren't allowed to build 'permanent' structures - even things like gardens - because the host country doesn't want them getting too comfy.  The same exists in American cities.  Services tend to be based up on 24 hour 'first come first serve' recurring systems because heaven forbid, someone actually settle in.

The mall was a concept.  I don't think there's any real building that makes sense because it's not about the building.  I think the truth is that homelessness is a hard and complex problem and that, for most people, is simply too hard and too complex. The weak suffer what they must.

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7 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

Thus far, there's never been enough help/housing/sustenance/employment/healthcare that lasts long enough to get back to a sustained healthy lifestyle for a significant # of people. And the future looks bleaker than that. All the rose-colored outlooks cannot change a thing for the ever-expanding low/no income group. We -- as a species -- need to face up to it. 

That leaves the alternative. 

On the west coast the skyrocketing rents have put a lot of employed people in the homeless category. Amazing how many have some shit job and are struggling to amass $5-6k cash for that first-last-deposit. Some of them know even if they do that they can't afford a $1,800.00 monthly rent for a couple hundred square feet of apt in the bad side of town. 

  It's no longer all about lifestyle out here, nope. 

 Rampant speculation in real estate is meeting some interesting resistance in Spain, btw. 

 https://www.businessinsider.com/spanish-renters-tenants-declare-war-on-american-private-equity-firms-2021-11

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On 11/29/2021 at 5:23 PM, BeSafe said:

IF you commit to helping the poor, you have two immediate barriers.  1)  NIMBY.  People don't 'those people' in their neighborhood.  There's lot of places where homeless shelters are quite a bit away from where homeless people actually tend to congregate.  Just depends on the local geography and policing.  2)  Fear of "Permanent" encampments.  This goes along with NIMBY.  If you make a situation 'comfortable', people don't want to leave.  Pretty soon, you have a permanent housing situation.

What you say is true about encampments but not so much about helping the poor.

We have St Vincent de Paul branches in Fat Point and on the other side of the river in Port Charlotte. The PC one is just down the street from a rental property we own and I don't think it hurts the neighborhood at all. The PG one is the biggest in the country (!) and has a very active food bank. It's in a decent neighborhood too. I have to go to town today and will probably drop off a stalk of bananas from my yard, so they have the occasional disreputable person show up, but not many of us.

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  • 1 month later...
On 11/30/2021 at 9:23 AM, BeSafe said:

I think the truth is that homelessness is a hard and complex problem and that, for most people, is simply too hard and too complex. 

It's not that hard or that complex.

That's something I hear when the "solvers" really can't get off the mouse wheel.

The solution starts with our attitudinal change.

Accept that homelessness in the 2000's is a different beast to that vision of the abandoned asylum dweller, the hopeless alchoholic or drug addict, the shell shocked veteran or the mentally ill.

The above still make up a huge proportion of "homeless" and each and every one of them has different needs and different solutions, some may not want your "solution" ask them what they want and what they think they need. Often its as simple a thing as not to be harrassed, not to have their possessions swept up and put in the trash while they are out. A place to shower food and clothes? a safe place to sleep? or maybe not.  Many certainly don't want to move from the patch they've made "home" and the community they know, to Some cold and barely habitable, echoing disused space out in the sticks.

Then there's the modern homeless, the kids that run from abuse, kids thrown out. The women that live with 2 kids in a car to escape DV. The 3 generations unemployed who've outworn their families welcome. The men that fell and can't get back. Those who cant be bothered looking for a home because of the debt collectors, the payday loans, the maelstrom of debt that can't ever be repaid, the disproportionate penalties, the fines that are fixed to the ability of the avergage income to pay, the hopeless the depressed.

We certainly will never "fix" the problem with "one size fits all" "solutions.

We certainly won't fix it if we don't ask what they want

We certainly wont fix it if we try to "fix" it in our own image.

 

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10 hours ago, ShortForBob said:

It's not that hard or that complex.

That's something I hear when the "solvers" really can't get off the mouse wheel.

The solution starts with our attitudinal change.

Accept that homelessness in the 2000's is a different beast to that vision of the abandoned asylum dweller, the hopeless alchoholic or drug addict, the shell shocked veteran or the mentally ill.

The above still make up a huge proportion of "homeless" and each and every one of them has different needs and different solutions, some may not want your "solution" ask them what they want and what they think they need. Often its as simple a thing as not to be harrassed, not to have their possessions swept up and put in the trash while they are out. A place to shower food and clothes? a safe place to sleep? or maybe not.  Many certainly don't want to move from the patch they've made "home" and the community they know, to Some cold and barely habitable, echoing disused space out in the sticks.

Then there's the modern homeless, the kids that run from abuse, kids thrown out. The women that live with 2 kids in a car to escape DV. The 3 generations unemployed who've outworn their families welcome. The men that fell and can't get back. Those who cant be bothered looking for a home because of the debt collectors, the payday loans, the maelstrom of debt that can't ever be repaid, the disproportionate penalties, the fines that are fixed to the ability of the avergage income to pay, the hopeless the depressed.

We certainly will never "fix" the problem with "one size fits all" "solutions.

We certainly won't fix it if we don't ask what they want

We certainly wont fix it if we try to "fix" it in our own image.

 

My GF worked for an organisation that provided first line living places for those who were trying to transition off of street living/homelessness.

There were a few simple rules.

No drug dealing. No smoking in units or on common property. No loud music. No fighting. All basic things to ensure that people could live in an apartment block and not disturb others living there.

Stunning how many people simply could not or would not follow rules like that.

For those homeless I've little time. Participation in society means you CANNOT do whatever you wish. If you can't accept that, too bad, live on the streets and don't moan to me about your plight. You chose.

FKT

 

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5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

My GF worked for an organisation that provided first line living places for those who were trying to transition off of street living/homelessness.

There were a few simple rules.

No drug dealing. No smoking in units or on common property. No loud music. No fighting. All basic things to ensure that people could live in an apartment block and not disturb others living there.

Stunning how many people simply could not or would not follow rules like that.

For those homeless I've little time. Participation in society means you CANNOT do whatever you wish. If you can't accept that, too bad, live on the streets and don't moan to me about your plight. You chose.

FKT

 

You're describing 30~40% of USAnians

- DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

You're describing 30~40% of USAnians

- DSK

Fortunately our percentage is probably less than 5. But we're all a bunch of socialistical commie wusses, so there's that.

FKT

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10 hours ago, ShortForBob said:

Accept that homelessness in the 2000's is a different beast to that vision of the abandoned asylum dweller, the hopeless alchoholic or drug addict, .... or the mentally ill.

No it's not. That describes almost perfectly the peeps here in the d/t eastside. Of course there are the other variations you describe above scattered around the city but here at ground zero those are the folks who overwelmingly populate that neighbourhood, and other hotspots in the lower mainland.  

 

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10 hours ago, Blue Crab said:

"Library Lady Solves Homeless Problem!"

Sorry Mel, You said it wasn't that hard or complex. Then offered nothing.

 

I did actually. WE CHANGE.

However, if I offered you my concrete solution, you wouldn't like it one bit.

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1 hour ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

No it's not. That describes almost perfectly the peeps here in the d/t eastside. Of course there are the other variations you describe above scattered around the city but here at ground zero those are the folks who overwelmingly populate that neighbourhood, and other hotspots in the lower mainland.  

 

Um, can I ask what the mental health and drug support services are like where you live?

Centalisation of these services leads to the desired outcome.

"how do we Keep em all out of "uptown"?

"Why, keep all the services where the the lefty, cool, woke, Dinks live? Downtown of course"

sarcasm aside, it's a chicken and egg situation.

"nice" homeless people dont need the drug and alcohol services. They park their car and sleep in the "safer" parts of town. or endlessly couch surf. The hidden homeless.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, ShortForBob said:

However, if I offered you my concrete solution, you wouldn't like it one bit.

Is it anything like a "final" solution? 

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1 hour ago, ShortForBob said:

I did actually. WE CHANGE.

However, if I offered you my concrete solution, you wouldn't like it one bit.

Yeah read it the first time. I want to hear. We need more ideas. When the people lead...

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Either a hefty tax on second or third or fourth ad inf, unoccupied properties to start with. Including those owned by companies. The revenue to go to public housing.

Or an option to offer your spare houses to house the homeless in a public/private partnership. LGA's pay the maintenance and manage the housing list. You get a small capped rental from your new tenant collected by LGA and distributed to you annually.

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Paid volunteer work at minimum wage on community projects. Beach cleaning, shopping for people, delivering food to people etc.

People can pop in or out as they choose on a 3-5 hour shift and /or are able and be paid in cash or kind (their choice) paid into their bank account.

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Obvious things like clean, supervised injecting rooms with housing and health services at hand.

Free legal advice and court representation.

Financial advice to negotiate debts

Amnesty on "bad credit" lists

a percentage of unidentifiable public housing in every street in every suburb every town town. 

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11 hours ago, ShortForBob said:

Is that enough to be going on with @Blue Crab?

After housing we can get onto education and training and dignified and flexible work.

Fuckin A kid. I'm always trying to get people thinking for solutions rather than the constant bitching and whining that must fill half of PA bandwidth.  Keep it up!

I noticed OZ has roughly 116K homeless. That almost seems a workable # to care for and about with your more unified leadership (imv). We've got an estimated 1/2 million but I suspect the Fed/State separation is a legislative roadblock ... on top of the fact that the right wingers have someone to look down on so aren't likely to allot monies to fix anything. Surely, Calif is resourceful enough with the world's 5th largest economy to take care of its est 160K homeless but they haven't done much. This might be useful: Homeless.

At minimum, why can't we pull the families off the street? Leave the drunks and addicts to their bad choices. 

 

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On 11/25/2021 at 6:52 AM, slug zitski said:

Big pharma didn’t prescribe OXY

doctors did 

 

Yes, the buck does have to stop somewhere.

When the pharmas offered the junkets and river of samples for Oxy, those primary caregivers did have a responsibility to ensure that these medicines didn't hurt their patients. In many cases, they made little effort to do that. Then Pharma sees the incoming tsunami of orders for this miracle drug and they made no effort to do what the doctors should have done.

In all cases, from pharma, to procedures, vaccines, supplements and the rest, the second last line of defense is those doctors and the responsibility to protect their patients. The final line of defense is in the patients themselves, to protect themselves from bad drugs, bad procedures and bad caregivers. But few of us trust ourselves enough to protect ourselves from this onslaught.

The reality of Oxy is that it was a juggenaut ... it introduced the miracle of opiates to millions of people who trusted their doctors and pharmas. And within months, when they could no longer afford the good stuff, they had to replace the feeling with street drugs. Oxy has directly contributed to the problem of homelessness.

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14 hours ago, ShortForBob said:

After housing we can get onto education and training and dignified and flexible work.

That approach is called "housing first" in California. I agree with most of it. 

https://endhomelessness.org/resource/housing-first/

And just to be clear, there are thousands of good people in Cali working on homeless issues. I help a little bit when I am out there. 

In fact, affordable housing is a global crisis, not just in the US or Cali. 

I also like the "social housing" approach of Austria and Scandinavia. 

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35 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Yes, the buck does have to stop somewhere.

When the pharmas offered the junkets and river of samples for Oxy, those primary caregivers did have a responsibility to ensure that these medicines didn't hurt their patients. In many cases, they made little effort to do that. Then Pharma sees the incoming tsunami of orders for this miracle drug and they made no effort to do what the doctors should have done.

In all cases, from pharma, to procedures, vaccines, supplements and the rest, the second last line of defense is those doctors and the responsibility to protect their patients. The final line of defense is in the patients themselves, to protect themselves from bad drugs, bad procedures and bad caregivers. But few of us trust ourselves enough to protect ourselves from this onslaught.

The reality of Oxy is that it was a juggenaut ... it introduced the miracle of opiates to millions of people who trusted their doctors and pharmas. And within months, when they could no longer afford the good stuff, they had to replace the feeling with street drugs. Oxy has directly contributed to the problem of homelessness.

Doctors did it , big pharma has deep pockets so they are the target 

I have a mate in Spain who had a back operation…..very painful .

During recovery the Spanish Doc only prescribed that nasty stuff for seven days, after that it was extra strength over the counter pain killers

 

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2 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Doctors did it 

I have a mate in Spain who had a back operation…..very painful .

During recovery the Spanish Doc only prescribed that nasty stuff for seven days, after that it was extra strength over the counter pain killers

 

I was on a morphine pump for a time after an operation to reconstruct my smashed elbow. I really, really needed it at first, no doubt about that. But I got off of it in 4-5 days as soon as I could tolerate the pain with oral painkillers.

That shit is a miracle short term but really bad news for any longer.

Anyway, drugs, I'm on the fringe here as I'd provide access to known quality drugs to addicts to keep them off of the street shit and the need to fund their addiction. I've never had much time for the morality police aspect of the war on (some) drugs.

I'd also bust them big-time if they operated moving machinery while under the influence because that's endangering others.

Some of Meli's ideas are good but she glosses over the arseholes who make neighbours from hell and NOBODY wants them about.

FKT

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On 1/3/2022 at 4:35 AM, Blue Crab said:

"Library Lady Solves Homeless Problem!"

Sorry Mel, You said it wasn't that hard or complex. Then offered nothing.

 

Actually she then offered up how complex an issue it is in reality.

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30 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Actually she then offered up how complex an issue it is in reality.

And has done bugger all about it other than sprout off on a UScentric sailing board.

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There is a basic psychological issue at play that revolves around meritocracy.

How much of your life are you actually responsible for?  How much did your choices matter?  And the reality is that there isn't any objective way to determine the answer.  Some people will claim 'all of it' - everything is personal choice.  Which might be objectively true.  But is a mule strapped to the grist mill with blinders 'free' to chose?   Sure - the mule doesn't HAVE to move.  But any movement advances the grist mill that advances the owner's objectives - not the mules.  What happens if the food from the mill feeds homeless people?  Is the suffering of one mule justified?  Those kinds of thought experiments degenerate into an endless spiral of 'dunnos'.

The challenge is that the counter narrative - that your life isn't really a result of choice and is more just an outcome of chance and probability - is unnerving.  That there is even a possibility that you don't deserve what you have is repugnant.  Failure is a necessary yin to successes yang.  That's the mill to which we're all strapped.  That's part of how we're wired - biology and all that.

----------------

So - how to proceed?

My personal choice is to accept (1) I'll never know the answer and (2) we should try and give people opportunity (3) some will fail anyway.

I don't believe in my own nobility and therefore can't believe in a general nobility.  But I do believe in choice - I'm not a total nihilist just yet.  So I'd like to have a choice.  Even if I don't chose good, I think that its important that the system allow for goodness, nonetheless, and that I'm allowed to participate.

My mall suggestion is driven from two perspectives.  1)  Poverty is community and (2) community is necessary.  So the most important feature is not to throw money at poverty but to create an alternate community to which the impoverished can chose to join.   They may not - but as long as its there, its a choice.  And that's the best I can do.

 

 

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On 1/4/2022 at 5:16 AM, mikewof said:

The reality of Oxy is that it was a juggenaut ... it introduced the miracle of opiates to millions of people who trusted their doctors and pharmas. And within months, when they could no longer afford the good stuff, they had to replace the feeling with street drugs. Oxy has directly contributed to the problem of homelessness.

Listen to Mikey.

Mikey knows lots a shit.

Like ...

Mikeyitsnot.png.7a3e1cbcc22f3c68b3450583b09bff1c.png

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19 hours ago, BeSafe said:

 

My mall suggestion is driven from two perspectives.  1)  Poverty is community and (2) community is necessary.  So the most important feature is not to throw money at poverty but to create an alternate community to which the impoverished can chose to join.   They may not - but as long as its there, its a choice.  And that's the best I can do.

 

 

Do you read much dystopian or science fiction?

Where are these disused malls? and what services might be made available there?

 

On Alpha III M2, psychiatric diagnostic groups have differentiated themselves into caste-like pseudo-ethnicities. The inhabitants have formed seven clans:

The Pares are people suffering from paranoia. They function as the statesman class. The Pare representative to the supreme council is Gabriel Baines, and their settlement is called Adolfville (named after Adolf Hitler). It is located within the northern sector of Alpha III M2, and is heavily fortified. This is where the supreme council building is, a stone, six-story-high building, the largest one in Adolfville.

The Manses are suffering from mania. They are the most active class, the warrior class. The Mans representative is Howard Straw. The Mans settlement is Da Vinci Heights. It is characterized as diverse but disordered, without aesthetic unity, "a hodgepodge of incomplete projects, started out but never finished." Also, this is where Alpha III M2's television transmitter is. There is supposed to be tension between them and the Pares, with the Manses constantly trying to stage a coup d'état.

The Skitzes are the ones suffering from schizophrenia. They correspond to the poet class, with some of them being religious visionaries. The Skitz delegate to the bi-annual get-together at Adolfville is Omar Diamond. The Skitz town is named Joan d’Arc, "poor materially, but rich in eternal values."

The Heebs consist of people suffering from hebephrenia (disorganized schizophrenia). Their settlement is Gandhitown. To the other clans, they are useful only for manual labour. Their representative is Jacob Simion. Gandhitown looks like "an inhabited garbage dump of cardboard dwellings." Like the Skitzes, some of the Heebs are religious visionaries as well; but they are inclined to produce ascetic saints, whereas the schizophrenics produce dogmatists. An example is "the famous Heeb saint, Ignatz Ledebur, who radiated spirituality as he wandered from town to town, spreading the warmth of his harmless Heeb personality." Another notable Heeb character is Sarah Apostoles; she together with Omar Diamond and Ignatz Ledebur form "the so-called Holy Triumvirate."

The Polys suffer from polymorphic schizophrenia. Annette Golding is the Poly delegate to the supreme council and their settlement is called Hamlet Hamlet. They are the creative members of society, producing new ideas. The children from every clan on Alpha III M2 were born Polys, went to their common, central school as Polys, did not become differentiated until perhaps their tenth or eleventh year. Some never became differentiated, though, hinting that, perhaps, some of them do not actually have mental disorders at all.

The Ob-Coms are the ones with obsessive-compulsive disorder, their delegate is Ingred Hibbler. The name of their location is not given. They are the clerks and office holders of the society, the ritualistic functionaries, with no original ideas. Their conservatism balances the radical quality of the Polys and gives the society stability.

The Deps are suffering from clinical depression. Their representative to the supreme council is Dino Watters and the name of their town is Cotton Mather Estates, where they live "in endless dark gloom.”

 

 

 

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/abandoned-malls-america-photos/index.html

The Metro North Mall in Kansas City North, Missouri, was demolished shortly after Lawless documented its remains.

A disused merry-go-round at the shuttered Medley Center Mall in Irondequoit, a suburb of Rochester, New York.

Eerie images show America's deserted theme parks, abandoned shopping malls  and forsaken train stations | The Independent | The Independent

or maybe disused theme parks.

Spirited away could be used for a promotional 

 

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11 hours ago, ShortForBob said:

Do you read much dystopian or science fiction?

 

On Alpha III M2, psychiatric diagnostic groups have differentiated themselves into caste-like pseudo-ethnicities. The inhabitants have formed seven clans:

[...]

One generally credits a quotation.  This one is from "Clans of the Alphane Moon", by Philip K. Dick. (an OK novel, but not one that I re-read)

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Cruise Ships. They have living/cooking/sanitary systems already. 

Put all the homeless on cruise ships. Keep doing that until all the cruise ships are used up. 

Added bonus: No cruise ships/passengers destroying the places they stop at. 

 

(I am not being serious)

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5 hours ago, valis said:

One generally credits a quotation.  This one is from "Clans of the Alphane Moon", by Philip K. Dick. (an OK novel, but not one that I re-read)

It's not a quotation it's a Wiki synopsis. 

First prize for picking it.

I read it 40 years ago. Not one of his best.

But I think the parallels between the Alpha3 M2 and sticking homeless people in old shopping malls is apt. 

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4 hours ago, gptyk said:

Cruise Ships. They have living/cooking/sanitary systems already. 

Put all the homeless on cruise ships. Keep doing that until all the cruise ships are used up. 

Added bonus: No cruise ships/passengers destroying the places they stop at. 

 

(I am not being serious)

Would anyone notice the difference?

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3 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

Screen-Shot-2022-01-04-at-8.59.01-AM-992

  •  
 

 

Freedom of contract. We sell them guns that kill them; they sell us drugs that kill us.

"Capitalists—qua owners of capital—are dispensable, but laborers are not."

=====================================

Funny thing about that quote of yours.

One capitalist (small businessman) with an excavator can eliminate the work of ~20 laborers. At least, they can & do in countries which don't rely on exploited & underpaid illegal migrants from shithole countries to keep wages suppressed.

You really should find something more recent than the 19th Century.

FKT

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On 1/5/2022 at 10:27 AM, valis said:

One generally credits a quotation.  This one is from "Clans of the Alphane Moon", by Philip K. Dick. (an OK novel, but not one that I re-read)

One generally credits a quotation, Meli sometimes needs to be reminded.

I read it years ago, a lot of it stuck with me through the years in a way that I think Dick would have liked, these "disorders" from the 1960s gradually organized into normalcy ... unless they hurt themselves or others, the armies of schizos, paranoids and obsessives simply became people who created content for YouTube and TikTok. If memory serves, the main character's wife foretold all of this, she found a happy home in the Moon's settlement of disorganized schizophrenics.

But I agree, not Dick's best work, it should have been a short story. I can only guess your favorite book by him? Valis?

 

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

But I agree, not Dick's best work, it should have been a short story. I can only guess your favorite book by him? Valis?

 

The whole four-book VALIS trilogy (VALIS, The Divine Invasion, and The Transformation of Timothy Archer, plus to a lesser extent Radio Free Albumeth) are all pretty powerful.  But I like most of his later novels (chronologically) from UBIK on,  plus The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch.

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