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Does any boat builder is still making small sturdy cruising sailboats?

Something like the Halberg Rassy 26 or the Dufour 1800, that had private bathrooms and can fit 4 people sleeping conformable.

Remember my dad use to have a HR 26 and remember sailing all around, safe boat, never have a problem with it and could hold with 30+ knots of wind.

I can´t find any builder aiming to this type of boats.

Thanks!!!

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1 hour ago, NZK said:

Isn't this what Wahine were trying to do? The boat looks interesting but their website seems to have changed into some sort of 'lifestyle yacht club' ...

https://www.wlifestyleyachts.com/yachts

I went on the Wahine 27(?) at the Newport Show when it came out.  Lots of good use of space and interesting concepts, not sure how it would have sailed.

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The market for small cabable cruising boats must be tiny. As has been pointed out here before the economics are hard, it does not cost that much more to build a larger boat, resulting in larger profit margins. Another issue is some of the older small boats were so well built that they last forever. Dana 24's and Flicas are popular around here and are often available on the used market. 

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5 hours ago, APD said:

Does any boat builder is still making small sturdy cruising sailboats?

Something like the Halberg Rassy 26 or the Dufour 1800, that had private bathrooms and can fit 4 people sleeping conformable.

Remember my dad use to have a HR 26 and remember sailing all around, safe boat, never have a problem with it and could hold with 30+ knots of wind.

I can´t find any builder aiming to this type of boats.

Thanks!!!

Contessa 32? Bigger than your target but small by today's standards... especially inside:

 

https://www.jeremyrogers.co.uk/contessa-32-new-build/

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2 hours ago, The great unwashed said:

The Brits are still into pocket cruisers.  This side of the water, not so much.

Only we'd call a pocket Cruiser something about 16- 22 ft... 25 ft upwards is a normal yacht.

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I agree there is a gap between the truly trailerable 20 footers and the thirty footers.  I went to a Newport Boat show sometime back in the 1980s (I think) where five different manufacturers had new 25 foot models. 

Modern construction is lighter so a new design with a certain amount of accommodation  is likely to be longer than a comparable older design. For example, the venerable Catalina 25 is 4550lbs and the new Beneteau First 27 (https://www.beneteau.com/us/first/first-27-new) is 3750 lbs. Adjust your notions of length accordingly.

Beneteau has made boats in the mid-20s pretty much all along, but they've churned through so many different designs that none is particularly common or memorable.

Catalina made the 270 up to fairly recently, and it's pretty sweet boat.

 

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Absolutely agree with @SemiSalt there is a large gap and a niche for a sturdy 'get-me-there' boat for an experienced, say, seasoned couple or solosailer, like the Contessa 26, Twister 28, HR 29 etc. used to hold.

The Brits are still quite good in it, this is one smaller outcome of their way of thinking, the Yarmouth 22

In newer boats, I would look at the RM 890, the Mojito 888, the Coast 250 by Swallow or the Django 7.70 by Marée Haute of France, especially in twin keel configuration, pictured below, these are even Cat A, I think, if its good enough for Brittany, it's good enough for anywhere.

maree-haute-boatshow-hall-1-segeln-2.jpg

 

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Most of the sub-30 ft boats from the last 30 years have gone to the "euro" accommodation plan with a triangular dinette crammed into the bow. This can result in a uselessly small, triangular table of flimsy construction, or at least, that's how it seems to me. I think this is popular because the alternative is a kid-size "double" in the forepeak, also of limited utility.

I'd be interested in comments from anyone who has cruised in an euro plan boat.

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8 hours ago, tane said:
On 11/15/2021 at 2:54 PM, NZK said:

Isn't this what Wahine were trying to do? The boat looks interesting but their website seems to have changed into some sort of 'lifestyle yacht club' ...

https://www.wlifestyleyachts.com/yachts

...world-class marketing BS on their site, world-class!

Wow! I got a few hints that this may be a well-built small boat.  But it is completely drowned in buzzwords.

If someone tried for a joke to make a page with every possible marketing cliche, it would look a lot like that https://www.wlifestyleyachts.com/yachts

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54 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

Most of the sub-30 ft boats from the last 30 years have gone to the "euro" accommodation plan with a triangular dinette crammed into the bow. This can result in a uselessly small, triangular table of flimsy construction, or at least, that's how it seems to me. I think this is popular because the alternative is a kid-size "double" in the forepeak, also of limited utility.

i believe that this is a Breton style of layout which has caught on across Europe.

There are many good reasons to adopt this layout on the fat-sterned modern designs:

  • Pushing the saloon fwd a bit leaves more space aft for the galley and heads
  • The extra beam aft means that it is better to have the head aft: more space, closer to the companionway, less motion
  • the v-berth is no longer the only double.  There is now a double under the cockpit, so the fwd v-berth is now a kid's berth
  • The old midship settees have a railway-carriage stage dining area, with people lined up on each.  But the fwd dinette is u-shaped, which fits more people in  more comfort

one of things which I thought was sad about Bob Perry's Islander 28 remake was that they were trying to replicate the original layout from 45 years ago.  Hull shapes are now very different, and very different layouts make better use of the extra space

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Wtf? A thread about "pocket cruising" and you people are discussing, among other things, a 32' vessel? THIS is pocket cruising (I know, cause it says so right in the name :rolleyes:):

https://www.clcboats.com/modules/catalog/boat.php?category_qn=wooden-sailboat-kits&subcat_qn=pocketship&code=pocketship-sailing-pocket-cruiser-kit

Hell,  Seraffyn at 24' wasn't a pocket cruiser, it was a world cruiser. 

I currently own a 33' cutter, never thought of it as a "pocket cruiser", but I do own a pocket cruiser-- a 17'5" gaff yawl-rigged Welsford Sweet Pea. Sheesh people, get your terms straight. Read some Roger Barnes (or watch his videos). THAT is pocket cruising...

 

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40 minutes ago, Slim said:

Yep, Vivier draws some beautiful boats (Jewel comes to mind when speaking of pocket cruising). I have the plans for this one (Kernic), although it will be the beach boat and the Welsford Sweet Pea will be for cruising. If I ever get around to building it...

image.thumb.png.c977abead0d2f4d8df738e74f27a3b32.png

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Some pocket cruisers

Lysander 17. I had one of these for many years..

Image result for lysander 17 sailing

 

Yachting monthly Senior

th?id=OIP.dfgss9ILcEFosvKpACXMXgAAAA&w=200&h=171&rs=1&qlt=80&o=6&pid=3.1

 

Mirror 19 Offshore.

Image result for mirror 19 sailing

 

Caprice 19 a plywood version sailed round the world.

See the source image

 

silhouette 17..

 hnXL8BnwADXWBadSHdzWl3xhwBuyBNbvGigaxDII.jpeg

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On 11/17/2021 at 2:22 AM, Anomaly2 said:

Wtf? A thread about "pocket cruising" and you people are discussing, among other things, a 32' vessel? THIS is pocket cruising (I know, cause it says so right in the name :rolleyes:):

https://www.clcboats.com/modules/catalog/boat.php?category_qn=wooden-sailboat-kits&subcat_qn=pocketship&code=pocketship-sailing-pocket-cruiser-kit

Hell,  Seraffyn at 24' wasn't a pocket cruiser, it was a world cruiser. 

I currently own a 33' cutter, never thought of it as a "pocket cruiser", but I do own a pocket cruiser-- a 17'5" gaff yawl-rigged Welsford Sweet Pea. Sheesh people, get your terms straight. Read some Roger Barnes (or watch his videos). THAT is pocket cruising...

 

Maybe the wrong end of the stick has been grabbed... the OP asked about cruisers with 4 berths and seperate heads... citing a couple of examples of 25'+ boats... maybe "pocket cruiser" is the wrong term but with the general trend for cruising boats to be bigger these days anything under 35' seems to be regarded as on the small side!!

 Semisalt's Beneteau looks like a modern interpretation of the niche... though whether it's as seakindly as the more traditional designs and some of the other examples cited might be a worthwhile subject for investigation. Depends on intentions,  I guess.

 There are still lots of older 25' to 30' cruisers around looking for love... a budget that would cover a new 27-footer could probably turn one of those into a pretty nice boat... a fact that contemporary builders are no doubt cognisant of...

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Pocket Cruiser isn't a precise term. That's okay.

As for mid 20 footer with a lot of accomodations. The Swallow Yachts BayCruiser 26 comes to mind: 25'9" long, trailerable, 4 berths, a separate head, a galley with twin sinks, refrigeration, and a two burner gimballed stove with oven.  Oh, and standing headroom for a 6 foot man.

https://swallowyachts.com/range/bay-cruiser-25/

Muddy-Waters-1000x2000.jpg

Inside-Iris-1000x2000TU.jpg

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4 hours ago, chester said:

Mirage 25...Perry designed, Mirage Built, i have one

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/mirage-25-perry

Almost bought one of those. Wish I had, now. Was listed for 13k Cdn. Watched for months as price crept down to 10k and lying in bed one night thought, "should contact that guy tomorrow......". 

Next morning ad was gone! - several months later after I'd bought my current boat it showed up in a part of my marina berthed in a sIip I'd kill for.

meh

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5 hours ago, kinardly said:

Why the gaff rig, beyond a marketing nod at tradition? Otherwise, a very interesting looking boat.

From Vivier's website:

'Un gréement bermudien plus moderne est aussi possible.' So you can have a Bermuda rig. If I recall correctly, a German amateur builder opted for that. 

Personally, I think the gaff rig looks great on this little one. I think it is one of the prettiest amateur-build small yachts around. And I also think that the gaff rig has some advantages in this size: easier to reef, to lower the mast, CG comes down when you reef, less windage when drying out, loads are probably lower on the stays (in some pics, there is some frigthening slack...)

Most of all, Vivier could keep the mast way forward. I'm not sure how if a Bermuda rig works just as well with the mast that much forward. If you look at his Toulinguet, it has the mast on the coachroof and ... it's beautiful, but not as much, in my view.

Pen Hir:

Francios-Vivier-Pen-Hir.jpg

Toulinguet:

DSC08494-Copier.jpg

 

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Why, they are so hard to find, small boats are eye watering expensive.  A nice 20 to 24 foot RV trailer runs mid twenties to thirties.  Relatively tiny sailing craft, much less complicated, run somewhere between 35 and a 100 Thousand dollars.  Young couples, typically in this market, buy used or don’t buy at all.  No one is buying, no real motivation to build. 

However, compared to light aircraft ,new Small sailboats, even 30 footers are practically giveaways compared to say a Cessna Skyhawk.  Now a nice 4 place single with retracts….      

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At 26' as a starting point I would first look at the Chuck Paine designed Frances 26'. Next in no particular order would be the Pacific Seacraft Dana, Albin Vega, Contessa 26', Pacific Seacraft Flicka, Folkboat, Cape Dory 25, Shannon 28, Cal 20'... You should also pick up this book as a good reference:

 

Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere

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Are those still in production?

 The OPs question was whether anyone was still building boats like this. I don't know about the North American boats but I'm pretty sure Albin are out of business. Contessa 26s are not currently in production AFAIK (hence the c32 observation) and Folkboats don't normally come with a separate heads compartment?

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There may still be some small shops who will build a new copy of a legacy design. The Bridges Point 24 was like that for a long time, not sure if it still is. Some traditional, regional one-design fleets have had a way to get a new boat built.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, AnIdiot said:

Are those still in production?

 The OPs question was whether anyone was still building boats like this. I don't know about the North American boats but I'm pretty sure Albin are out of business. Contessa 26s are not currently in production AFAIK (hence the c32 observation) and Folkboats don't normally come with a separate heads compartment?

Very few, if any builders are still building boats like this...hence the idea of buying a used boat for much less cash then spending some cash on getting it back in shape. 

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1 hour ago, Kolibri said:

Cape George Yachts is one of the very few North American builders that will build a new "pocket cruiser". You can get a Falmouth Cutter 22', Bristol Channel Cutter 28', or a Cape George 31'.

https://capegeorgecutters.com/

Unrelated to pocket cruisers, this handsome boat is on their homepage:

510620878_ScreenShot2021-11-21at10_43_41AM.thumb.png.e8be45ae4f6ae5624b4c7830699e8ce2.png

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The Stone Horse 26 has a shocking amount of space.

The Great Harbor 26 built by Hank Hinckley was a top, top quality, lifting keel, trailerable pocket cruiser. Beautiful. Expensive. There is one on Yachtworld asking $72 K. You have to see one up close to appreciate how finely these were built. 

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The Stone Horse 26 has a shocking amount of space.

The Great Harbor 26 built by Hank Hinckley was a top, top quality, lifting keel, trailerable pocket cruiser. Beautiful. Expensive. There is one on Yachtworld asking $72 K. You have to see one up close to appreciate how finely these were built. 

Wasn’t aware of a Stone Horse 26.   Did you mean the 23’?  (A 26’er would be pretty nice though)

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1 hour ago, Cruisin Loser said:

The Stone Horse 26 has a shocking amount of space.

The Great Harbor 26 built by Hank Hinckley was a top, top quality, lifting keel, trailerable pocket cruiser. Beautiful. Expensive. There is one on Yachtworld asking $72 K. You have to see one up close to appreciate how finely these were built. 

Yep- pretty smart sailers too. They're fun and practical and beautiful.

- DSK

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23 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

It's a bit weird that sailboatdata calls it the Stone Horse 26.  I don't think Eddy and Duff, the builder, ever gave it a number.  It was just "the Stone Horse."  A lot of their other boats are like this too: the Stuart Knockabout, the Doughdish, the Dovekie, the Fatty Knees, etc.

The boat is 18'4" feet on the waterline and 23'4" on deck.  Sparred length is a little over 28 ft from tip of bowsprit to end of boomkin.  Not sure where the "26" comes from.

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7 hours ago, Kolibri said:

Very few, if any builders are still building boats like this...hence the idea of buying a used boat for much less cash then spending some cash on getting it back in shape. 

Whoosh!

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8 hours ago, LeoV said:

Yes, the waarschip is superior in probably all aspects (assuming it is stiff and watertight enough to go offshore), but people who buy a Muscadet, buy it for this :

a4b88404-497c-457d-8dc7-2cb3f228281e.jpe

Second hand I think that they are about 10 000€ so not really good value for money if you want to only use it as a pocket cruiser but great vfm if you want a boat that can offer tight one design racing + daysailing + cruising.

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5 hours ago, Panoramix said:

assuming it is stiff and watertight enough to go offshore

No problem there with new builds, they sailed around the world, and can be seen in weird places like Iceland.
But the 40 ft-er is more comfortable ...
The 700 LD is a pleasure to sail.

VT_11-11_Waarschip-700-LD.jpg

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2 hours ago, LeoV said:

No problem there with new builds, they sailed around the world, and can be seen in weird places like Iceland.
But the 40 ft-er is more comfortable ...
The 700 LD is a pleasure to sail.

VT_11-11_Waarschip-700-LD.jpg

The fun factor of a plywood boat tends to be really high up! 

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9 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

The fun factor of a plywood boat tends to be really high up! 

For cost, yeah, carbon is nice too... The French had the Muscadet, Super Calin mini and more plywood rockets. There was a time plywood made a lot of sense.

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2 minutes ago, LeoV said:

For cost, yeah, carbon is nice too... The French had the Muscadet, Super Calin mini and more plywood rockets. There was a time plywood made a lot of sense.

Yes carbon is nice too but apart from top racers, few people sail carbon boats for obvious reasons. Between a stiff plywood boat and a bendy production grp one, my choice is made... except that plywood is expensive to build nowadays... I still think that there is something special about helming a plywood boat even a very modest one, IMO it is down to the fact that the boat is naturally stiff so conveys back more info to its crew.

When structures killed the Super Calin with the Pogo2, I was gutted, otherwise the SC would have become the 21st century Muscadet.

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On 11/20/2021 at 1:55 PM, bstrdsonofbtl said:

I like the Djangos too but if he wants a true "pocket cruiser" he should get the 6.70.....

 

24905-6049543.jpg

http://interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2020/04/a-never-ending-circumnavigation-on-25ft.html

I keep coming back to the idea of one of a smaller Django, Mojito, Pogo, RM, Seascape as a minimalist cruiser...but I'm not sure I want to trade modern fast and light for sea-kindliness.  Such a contrast between these boats and the typical list of recommendations: Older Contessa, Nicholson, Albin Vega, Pacific Seacraft, etc...

I know you can always have it all, and every choice is a compromise, but it would be nice to have a bit of both worlds...

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On 11/24/2021 at 1:35 PM, Spokey Doke said:

I keep coming back to the idea of one of a smaller Django, Mojito, Pogo, RM, Seascape as a minimalist cruiser...but I'm not sure I want to trade modern fast and light for sea-kindliness.  Such a contrast between these boats and the typical list of recommendations: Older Contessa, Nicholson, Albin Vega, Pacific Seacraft, etc...

I know you can always have it all, and every choice is a compromise, but it would be nice to have a bit of both worlds...

I don't see a trade-off like you suggest.  If the only criterion was seaworthiness, I'd take the Pogo over all of the Contessa, Nicholson, Albin Vega, Pacific Seacraft, etc.   It's so far ahead that the others are out of sight.

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37 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I don't see a trade-off like you suggest.  If the only criterion was seaworthiness, I'd take the Pogo over all of the Contessa, Nicholson, Albin Vega, Pacific Seacraft, etc.   It's so far ahead that the others are out of sight.

I didn't think seaworthiness = having a sea kindly motion...and I was thinking about the latter

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6 hours ago, Spokey Doke said:

I didn't think seaworthiness = having a sea kindly motion...and I was thinking about the latter

The old heavy boats are more comfortable when going to windward in a blow.  In all other situations, i find a lighter boat more comfortable.  YMMV

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The old heavy boats are more comfortable when going to windward in a blow.  In all other situations, i find a lighter boat more comfortable.  YMMV

Just the kind of feedback I was looking for...thanks. 

So many of the conversations I've read about the older heavier boats feature lots of praise for their comfortable motion, which has some intuitive appeal - but my intuitions have a spotty track record...

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44 minutes ago, Spokey Doke said:

Just the kind of feedback I was looking for...thanks. 

So many of the conversations I've read about the older heavier boats feature lots of praise for their comfortable motion, which has some intuitive appeal - but my intuitions have a spotty track record...

No boat is "comfortable" at sea. Lighter boats with flare and lots of reserve buoyancy tend to have a jerky, bouncy motion in waves though, and this is annoying and tiring. Some people adjust to it easily, some people can't seem to adjust at all. The question to ask, when choosing a boat, is "how many days out of every year am I going to be doing X (or Y or Z) and what characteristics of the boat affect that?"

Many people picture themselves as salty old seafarers spending most of their days at sea, and want a "Let's Round Cape Horn!" -y style boat, only to find that it sails like a brick barn, is almost impossible to maneuver around docks and the like without smashing things up, and is a dank cavern below.

As you can probably tell, for sailboats I tend to choose fun/performance sailing characteristics, and comforts when stopped/anchored/docked; also I like boats that can get into the more interesting shallower cruising places.

- DSK

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9 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

No boat is "comfortable" at sea. Lighter boats with flare and lots of reserve buoyancy tend to have a jerky, bouncy motion in waves though, and this is annoying and tiring. Some people adjust to it easily, some people can't seem to adjust at all

My experience is that when you are off the wind, a heavy boat rolls and heaves and wallows like a pig, whereas as light boat can get beyond hull speed and have much more steady motion as it rides the waves.

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On 11/18/2021 at 10:43 AM, kinardly said:

Why the gaff rig, beyond a marketing nod at tradition? Otherwise, a very interesting looking boat.

Easier to trailer.  Gaff rigs require shorter masts which means less/no overhang on the highway, lighter to step and easier to design a mast tabernacle for.

Quite a few boats that make good short handed trailerables use gaff rigs for this reason.

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On 11/29/2021 at 1:03 PM, Priscilla said:

I’m waiting for Elon to release the electrically propelled version of this…

BCE3C247-526F-4A9B-83F4-4C1751BAC03C.jpeg.4aea7cba809128cfce973e90e645702d.jpeg

I do want to remind you that this is a family site and small children might see this and be seriously damaged mentally for life.  That said, please refrain from such phonograph pictures again.  

If I saw this in the 1950’s and early 1960’s issues of yachting, I might have abandoned the family pursuit of sailing and no telling what horrible direction my life might have taken.  

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3 hours ago, Santanasailor said:

I do want to remind you that this is a family site and small children might see this and be seriously damaged mentally for life.  That said, please refrain from such phonograph pictures again.  

If I saw this in the 1950’s and early 1960’s issues of yachting, I might have abandoned the family pursuit of sailing and no telling what horrible direction my life might have taken.  

My humblest apologies Santana I will refrain from posting photographs of the offending vessel however the OP was seeking a 26 footer that could accommodate 4 had a separate head which the unmentionable craft has with the added benefit of a shoal draft performance enhancing twin rudders and the ability to exceed 20 knots to windward.

 

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1 hour ago, Priscilla said:

My humblest apologies Santana I will refrain from posting photographs of the offending vessel however the OP was seeking a 26 footer that could accommodate 4 had a separate head which the unmentionable craft has with the added benefit of a shoal draft performance enhancing twin rudders and the ability to exceed 20 knots to windward.

 

Do not fail to mention the really unique characteristic of this craft that shall not be pictured…..4th Mode!!!!!

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On 11/18/2021 at 12:20 PM, Elegua said:

Surprised no one has mentioned the Red Fox 20. Double dagger boards, so it’s beachable, reasonable interior and sailing ability…

image.jpeg.f58c8739f80bbdbb7f29a2c242d53cf5.jpeg

and stops like a fekker if you hit the putty - one hell of a boat shaking, dagger box cracking sudden stop

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4 hours ago, dylan winter said:

and stops like a fekker if you hit the putty - one hell of a boat shaking, dagger box cracking sudden stop

Well, that just adds to the frisson, no?

EDIT: But you're right. Always makes sense to have a daggerboard that is weaker than the boat. I have a dinghy with a an epoxied and glassed okoume plywood dagger board that will split the boat before it even dents. 

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IIRC, the Folkboat was designed in the 1950s as a family day racer. Just about every report I've ever heard is tha they are just pleasurable to sail, some sweet spot of comfort and performance. As a racer, not much of an interior, so any boat fitted out as a cruiser is likely to be overweight.

Any boat designed for northern Europe should handle most US venues easily, and there is/was a fleet in San Francisco Bay. I heard of Allantic crossings.

Back in the 1970s, a company was selling a cruising version in the US. It had a highly developed interior. I was tempted,  but it was a bit too expensive  for me, and I wanted a more easily tailored boat.

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59 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

 

Any boat designed for northern Europe should handle most US venues easily, and there is/was a fleet in San Francisco Bay. I heard of Allantic crossings.

 

Contessa 26 is a Folkboat evolution.  A couple of notable solo circumnavigations.

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Any boat designed for northern Europe should handle most US venues easily, and there is/was a fleet in San Francisco Bay. I heard of Allantic crossings.

The problem with some of the boats designed for northern Europe is that they can be undercanvassed for the light air common along the US east coast and often not designed with sufficient ventilation for hot summers.

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5 hours ago, slap said:

The problem with some of the boats designed for northern Europe is that they can be undercanvassed for the light air common along the US east coast and often not designed with sufficient ventilation for hot summers.

True Slap, no ventilation issues here….

F099FFC9-6372-4B62-ACBA-9054F856B22F.thumb.jpeg.a2057a2d0a0dd6b5d3c031ce7fe7d036.jpeg

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