Jump to content

Austria has an interesting covid solution.


Recommended Posts

BERLIN (AP) — Austria took what its leader called the “dramatic” step Monday of implementing a nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated people who haven’t recently had COVID-19, perhaps the most drastic of a string of measures being taken by European governments to get a massive regional resurgence of the coronavirus under control. 

The move, which took effect at midnight, prohibits people 12 years old and older who haven’t been vaccinated or recently recovered from leaving their homes except for basic activities such as working, grocery shopping, going for a walk — or getting vaccinated. 
Austria orders nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated 

The lockdown is initially being imposed until Nov. 24 in the Alpine country of 8.9 million. It doesn’t apply to children under 12 because they cannot yet officially get vaccinated — though the capital, Vienna, on Monday opened up vaccinations for under-12s as part of a pilot project, and reported high demand......................................

Read more: https://www.newsnationnow.com/health/coronavirus/austria-locks-down-unvaccinated-amid-covid-resurgence/ 

Link to post
Share on other sites

And free access to a "poof haus" for those seeking a vax.....

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

What’s the goal?

The balance of the article.

Officials have said that police patrols will be stepped up and unvaccinated people can be fined up to 1,450 euros ($1,660) if they violate the lockdown.

“We really didn’t take this step lightly and I don’t think it should be talked down,” Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg told Oe1 radio. “This a dramatic step — about 2 million people in this country are affected. … What we are trying is precisely to reduce contact between the unvaccinated and vaccinated to a minimum, and also contact between the unvaccinated.”

“My aim is very clearly to get the unvaccinated to get themselves vaccinated and not to lock down the vaccinated,” Schallenberg added. “In the long term, the way out of this vicious circle we are in — and it is a vicious circle, we are stumbling from wave to lockdown, and that can’t carry on ad infinitum — is only vaccination.”

About 65% of the population is fully vaccinated, a rate that Schallenberg described as “shamefully low.”

Authorities are concerned about rising infections and increasing pressure on hospitals. Austria on Sunday recorded 849.2 new cases per 100,000 residents over the previous seven days. Its situation is far worse than that of neighboring Germany, where case rates on Monday hit the latest in a string of records, with 303 new cases per 100,000 residents over seven days.

Berlin on Monday became the latest of several German states to limit access to restaurants, cinemas, museums and concerts to people who have been vaccinated or recently recovered — shutting out unvaccinated people who have tested negative. Under-18s are exempted.

On Thursday, the German parliament is due to vote on a new legal framework for coronavirus restrictions drawn up by the parties that are expected to form the country’s next government. Those plans are reportedly being beefed up to allow tougher contact restrictions than originally envisioned.

Separately, the three parties — which hope to take office early next month — also appear set to introduce a vaccine mandate in some areas, a step officials so far have balked at.

“We will need compulsory vaccination … in nursing homes, in day care centers and so on,” said the Greens’ parliamentary group leader, Katrin Goering-Eckardt. “We will get that off the ground.”

Germany has struggled to bring new momentum to its vaccination campaign, with just over two-thirds of the population fully vaccinated, and is trying to ramp up booster shots.

Outgoing Chancellor Angela Merkel issued a new appeal on Saturday for holdouts to get vaccinated. “Think about it again,” she said. The country’s disease control center called last week for people to cancel or avoid large events.

To Germany’s west, the Netherlands on Saturday night implemented a partial lockdown that is due to run for at least three weeks, forcing bars and restaurants to close at 8 p.m. In the northern city of Leeuwarden, hundreds of young people gathered in a central square, setting off fireworks and holding flares, before riot police moved in to push protesters out.

In Austria, the leader of the far-right opposition Freedom Party vowed to combat the new restrictions by “all parliamentary and legal means we have available.” Herbert Kickl said in a statement that “2 million people are being practically imprisoned without having done anything wrong.”

On Monday, Kickl announced on Facebook that he had tested positive for COVID-19 and must self-isolate for 14 days, so he won’t be able to attend a protest in Vienna planned on Saturday.

The government’s next move may well be to tighten the screws.

Health Minister Wolfgang Mueckstein told ORF television that he wants to discuss further measures on Wednesday, and said that one proposal on the table is limits on going out at night that would also apply to the vaccinated.

Schallenberg sounded a more cautious note. “Of course I don’t rule out sharpening” the measures, he said, but he indicated that he doesn’t expect restrictions on bars and the like at present.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to think that because Raz'r answered that IHHO Austria's policy is to reduce the load on hospitals that "we stopped going for herd immunity."

Raz'r is not a spokesperson for "We as in the collective", nor is he a spokesperson for Austria, nor is he a spokesperson for the CDC.

Clearly the premise underlying your "question" is based on your fallacious assumption.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, chum said:

But what about herd immunity?

We won’t reach it for another year because selfish pricks won’t get vaccinated.  Fortunately for the most part only dumb fucks will die but they will take some good people with them,  mostly older folks.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

Again, it turns out natural immunity is just as good or better, based on the Israeli studies of millions of people, as I understand. Eventually, everyone will have some immunity for some period of time, vaxxed or not. I just want to know how this bears on herd immunity.

You've changed your subject from Austria's decision to the issue of natural immunity and how it bears on herd immunity.

 

Just now, chum said:

Got a cite for this? 

He's FakeDoctor. He's his own cite because he knows better than ANYONE.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, chum said:

That’s funny, coming from the guy who goes unmasked and doesn’t care.

It turns out the vax leaks, and vaccinated people are spreading it, did you know that? 

I’m genuinely interested to know how this affects herd immunity, but I don’t believe you have the HP to answer that. 

Vaxed people don’t need to wear masks except when knowingly in the frequent and prolonged presence of (a small subset of) immune compromised people and for the moment small children.  So pretty much limited to hospitals and elementary schools. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

Who is this "We" to whom you keep referring? The collective "we" would include everyone. With so many anti-vaxxers out there, the obvious answer to your question is no.

The collective "we" don't agree on anything.

Perhaps "us" would be a better word

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, chum said:

Again, it turns out natural immunity is just as good or better, based on the Israeli studies of millions of people, as I understand. Eventually, everyone will have some immunity for some period of time, vaxxed or not. I just want to know how this bears on herd immunity.

That's contrary to what a lot of US and UK studies have shown.

Reinfection rate (people catching it for the 2nd (or more) time) is slightly higher than the rate of breakthrough infections (people who are vaccinated catching it). Both measuring only cases serious enough to require medical attention. The fatality rate for reinfection is a lot higher than for breakthrough, though.

And despite all the kvetching about boosters, it appears that vaccine-produced immunity lasts longer. The one advantage provided by acquired immunity (ie getting infected and recovering, thanks to widespread media use of the term "natural immunity" for this, it has become the accepted term) is that it produces a wider range of antibody agents.

Last month's yacht club presentation was on exactly this topic, given by a recently retired doc who did research as well as teaching & treating patients (C/P).

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

How do you know who the small subset is, they wear a sign?

No, which is why if you are unsure you should ask the immune compromised person if you should wear a mask.  For example if you have psoriasis or atopic dermatitis you have a compromised immune system and some take drugs that further suppress the immune system. However that degree of compromise does not warrant mask wearing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's contrary to what a lot of US and UK studies have shown.

Reinfection rate (people catching it for the 2nd (or more) time) is slightly higher than the rate of breakthrough infections (people who are vaccinated catching it). Both measuring only cases serious enough to require medical attention. The fatality rate for reinfection is a lot higher than for breakthrough, though.

And despite all the kvetching about boosters, it appears that vaccine-produced immunity lasts longer. The one advantage provided by acquired immunity (ie getting infected and recovering, thanks to widespread media use of the term "natural immunity" for this, it has become the accepted term) is that it produces a wider range of antibody agents.

Last month's yacht club presentation was on exactly this topic, given by a recently retired doc who did research as well as teaching & treating patients (C/P).

- DSK

A point about boosters.  First of all not everyone will need one.  Second the booster you get may be your last.  There’s a lot of discussion that the mRNA vaccine should have always had three shots.  There simply wasn’t time to look at that in the rush to get the vaccines out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, chum said:

Does anyone know when we stopped going for herd immunity?

recently as in the past week according to google ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=herd+immunity&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=sbd:1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjb0e6hzZv0AhVQs1YBHSzwDL0QpwV6BAgBECw&biw=1920&bih=941&dpr=1

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, chum said:

Cite? The article is from a couple of days ago.

However a recent Israeli study shows that natural immunity is 13 times more effective than vaccines in protecting individuals. “SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccines had a 13-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected.”

Look up the actual statistics yourself.

See what the difference is between reinfection... defined as the percetage of people who have already had a serious case of COVID requiring medical treatment, who then have a subsequent case... and breakthrough infection... defined as the percent of vaccinated people who have a case of COVID requiring medical treatment.

You can jigger the relationship by measuring breakthrough infections against per-capita reinfections, or some such.

But the 13X figure is pretty obvious bullshit to anybody who's been paying attention. At one point RWNJs were screeching that acquired immunity was 27X better, what happened?

1 minute ago, chum said:

FN cracks me up. 

Careful, he might find you more attractive if he sees that.......

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:
9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Look up the actual statistics yourself. ....

The study is not peer reviewed yet, we will wait and see I guess. 

Look up the actual statistics yourself.

A 13X difference, or anything close to that much, should be obvious.

Like the difference in the percentage... and the numbers... of unvaccinated vs vaccinated people dying of it.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, chum said:

We as in the collective, we are in this together.

You made a funny, good job. Oesterreich Uber Alles. They are not dumb. They are also very white, christian and bigoted. They are sort of like republcans, just alot smarter and more concerned for their fellow citizens.

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, chum said:

Cite? The article is from a couple of days ago.

However a recent Israeli study shows that natural immunity is 13 times more effective than vaccines in protecting individuals. “SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccines had a 13-fold increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected.”

Not sure if you saw this part: 

This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, chum said:

Can you share some cites that informed you? Where’d you go?

Nature, Wired, Science, The Atlantic, CDC, FT, WSJ excerpts from JAMA, lancet etc, American Association of Pediatricians off the top of my head.  Just requires being well read.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, chum said:

So, it looks like we can count on yearly vaccinations as with the flu then, is that right?

Us. Remember Max said we should use "Us". So: "[I]t looks like us can count on yearly vaccinations as with the flue then, is that right?"

And IMHO, you've made another of those weird leaps to your conclusion again.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chum said:

Flatten the curve? Does anyone know when we stopped going for herd immunity?

When the people with functioning brains took control of the process.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, chum said:

Another weird leap? What was the last one?

Why is it a leap to say if we don’t acquire immunity we will need to get boosters?

Last one: because Austria made a decision, the collective "We" (or "Us" for Max) have given up on herd immunity.

The leap this time is to "yearly" shots, "as with the flu".

And I'm now unclear about your "immunity" reference. Is this again the collective "we", as in herd immunity?

Please treat this as rhetorical. I'm six-two-and-even, over and out for today.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, badlatitude said:

BERLIN (AP) — Austria took what its leader called the “dramatic” step Monday of implementing a nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated people who haven’t recently had COVID-19, perhaps the most drastic of a string of measures being taken by European governments to get a massive regional resurgence of the coronavirus under control. 

The move, which took effect at midnight, prohibits people 12 years old and older who haven’t been vaccinated or recently recovered from leaving their homes except for basic activities such as working, grocery shopping, going for a walk — or getting vaccinated. 
Austria orders nationwide lockdown for unvaccinated 

The lockdown is initially being imposed until Nov. 24 in the Alpine country of 8.9 million. It doesn’t apply to children under 12 because they cannot yet officially get vaccinated — though the capital, Vienna, on Monday opened up vaccinations for under-12s as part of a pilot project, and reported high demand......................................

Read more: https://www.newsnationnow.com/health/coronavirus/austria-locks-down-unvaccinated-amid-covid-resurgence/ 

I like it.  Let's do it here.  Starting tomorrow.  Bunchacunts!

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Fakenews said:

Tell that to DeSantis and the rest of Team Trumpaloon.

Unfortunately for the orange clown in your head, Florida has the lowest covid infection rates in the country! 

UCMTSU!!!!! :D

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, chum said:

But what about herd immunity?

For Abbot and DeSantis, herd immunity seems to mean killing off a vast percentage of the population thereby achieving"herd immunity" for the survivors.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Burning Man said:

I like it.  Let's do it here.  Starting tomorrow.  Bunchacunts!

Yup, with one change, to protect first amendment rights. They should be encouraged to gather and protest in select indoor facilities.

 

I’m still amazed that we let a bunch of bullshitters turn a public health crisis into a political culture war issue. 
 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

Actually people here did. It was a straightforward question about the issue, and the usual suspects brought up politics.

That’s because thanks to Team Trumpaloon COVID is a political issue.  Again you know that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

She is right to not trust anything the Gropenfuhrer suggests. She didn't want a strong light shoved into her body or disinfectants/bleach. She may rub Republicans/Fascists the wrong way. She is not the President. What did Mike and Mother do for four years, before his prezidunce left him out to hang? Our right wing politicians love Orban in Hungary, Austria isn't much different and is right next door. So, The freedom loving patriots that are going to CPAC next year, better get their shots.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't get it: At the stoke of a pen the government could re-institute the draft for all 18 to 45 year olds, pack them off to distant beaches to die. 100% constitutional. Even snowflake exemptions could be waived. Yet mandating a vaccine or forced quarantine is out of the question? Explain.

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, chum said:

Vaccine: a substance used to stimulate the production of antibodies and provide immunity against one or several diseases, prepared from the causative agent of a disease, its products, or a synthetic substitute, treated to act as an antigen without inducing the disease.

 

Full Definition of immunity

 

the quality or state of being immuneespecially : a condition of being able to resist a particular disease especially through preventing development of a pathogenic microorganism or by counteracting the effects of its products
 
To start with, it’s beginning to look like it doesn’t fit the definition of vaccine. It leaks, it does not provide immunity, and vaxxed people spread it. Where does that end? There are some immunologists that know better than anyone here that say we’re creating a super virus that will mutate not to respond at all, because of the leaks. Much like not taking the whole prescribed course of medication can cause the same thing with current pathogens.
As for mandatory lockdowns, the only thing I can say is if you’re scared, stay home. Lock yourself down.

Don't be such a pedantic ass. You're starting to sound like Bloviating Tom. 

As to new variants, much more likely from the billions of unvaxxed than the vaxxed. Couple of reasons, first, likelihood of the virus getting a foothold in a vaxxed person is a small fraction of a non-vaxxed. 2nd, time of infection of a vaxxed person who IS infected is a fraction of the time of a non-vaxxed persons infection.  Variant development depends on the length of infection (number of generations of virus = greater likelihood of a variant)- so vaxxed are both fewer in number, and shorter in duration. 

And assuming you live in the US, don't worry about lockdowns, unless you're in a red state and shit is getting real again. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

16 hours ago, chum said:

So, it looks like we can count on yearly vaccinations as with the flu then, is that right?

15 hours ago, chum said:

Why is it a leap to think we may need seasonal vaccines since there is no herd immunity and the virus seems to surge seasonally like the flu?

You did a FakeDoctor shift. You went from "we can count on yearly vaccinations" to "may need seasonal vaccines". See the difference? It's like Gorilla/Guerilla. HUGE difference! 

The "we can count on" was a leap that wasn't supported (unless you have a cite). You, like the Fakester, got ahead of the science and drew your own overreaching conclusion. I also question your assertion that the virus surges seasonally like the flu. The surges haven't been seasonal like the flu thus far.

That said, if you provide some supporting cites, I'm more than willing to reconsider.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

I don't see the difference between a yearly vaccine and a seasonal vaccine.

Its been all over the news that they're expecting a surge when people go inside for the winter, you haven't heard that?

"Count on" vs "may need". That's the leap to which I referred.

Generally, there are four seasons. (Or there used to be.) Perhaps you meant "annual" rather than "seasonal"..

In any case, I don't think the science is in on whether additional boosters will be needed. Perhaps, but not for certain.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, chum said:

Saying that the vaccine leaks is not being pedantic, it's factual. got a cite for all the other information?

Those cites have been posted before, and I'm not Tom, I don't keep track.

Lower odds of breakthrough vs non-vaxxed getting covid? Duh

shorter time being sick? that's the whole point

genetic drift over number of generations? yeah, that's how it works.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chum said:

Actually people here did. It was a straightforward question about the issue, and the usual suspects brought up politics.

By "the usual suspects" I hope you mean B2 and Dog who were gloating that covid killed so many liberals.

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, chum said:

I thought the whole point was to eliminate the virus like with polio etc.?

Maybe when we had less than 10 infected. Once it spread? No. It was always keep the medical system functional, and now it's about lowering your risk of death. (and keeping the med system functional)

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Danceswithoctopus said:

Perhaps that could be a possibility if we had vaccination rates as high as those with polio, etc.

Even then not likely. Covid mutates too fast. Polio is genetically very stable. Corona viruses, not so much.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, chum said:

Show e something before  this?

 

 

Why would anyone take a vaccine if the only guy telling them to take it was the same guy with 1000s of documented lies on his record?

Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, chum said:

Saying that the vaccine leaks is not being pedantic, it's factual. got a cite for all the other information?

It’s common knowledge but your question recalls the old adage “When a Trumpaloon asks for a cite they’re not really asking for information, it’s a prelude to BS”.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

I was only responding to the sssertion that Rs had politicized it.

She wasn't politicizing. She was responding to the history of lies.

Are you saying that truth has become a political issue?

Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, chum said:

I don't see the difference between a yearly vaccine and a seasonal vaccine.

Its been all over the news that they're expecting a surge when people go inside for the winter, you haven't heard that?

A greatly diminished surge.  Gottlieb has gone so far as to say the pandemic in the US is over. Some people will need a bossier shot as the final shot in a three corse regimen but it’s unclear how many.  There’s little support for the idea of recurring booster shots.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, chum said:

That’s why we don’t have vaccines for corona viruses.

And up till now, we didn't have the technology to develop vaccines for corona viruses. We used to be able to say that about Polio as well. Or Smallpox.

But, now we have them.

Amazing, ain't it?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

Sure. But you're speculating. Which was my original point. And is the problem with the likes of FakeDoctor, who speculates incessantly and presents it as irrefutable fact.

You are welcome to attempt to refute my informed analysis with data and numbers  but oddly you never do.  Reminds me of the debate surrounding Delta and children.  I was able to correctly illustrate that Covid wasn’t a huge problem in children using data from the CDC and American Association of Pediatricians.  To date out of 80M people under the age of 19 only 650 have died most over the age of 12.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

You are welcome to attempt to refute my informed analysis with data and numbers  but oddly you never do.  Reminds me of the debate surrounding Delta and children.  I was able to correctly illustrate that Covid wasn’t a huge problem in children using data from the CDC and American Association of Pediatricians.  To date out of 80M people under the age of 19 only 650 have died most over the age of 12.  

I don't question your sources (usually), only your arrogant conclusions and the dangerous recommendations you make. You present your speculation as fact, the conclusions YOU draw as irrefutable.

You're a danger to anyone who pays attention to you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, chum said:

Ahh, so that's what they're passing on the alternative right-wing channels these days?

These guys answer your question - although you won't pay attention:

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/are-leaky-vaccines-causing-the-new-covid-19-mutations

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

I don't question your sources (usually), only your arrogant conclusions and the dangerous recommendations you make. You present your speculation as fact, the conclusions YOU draw as irrefutable.

You're a danger to anyone who pays attention to you.

And here we have the crux of the problem.  You are incapable of drawing conclusions from a review of data from a wide variety of reputable sources.  You find people who can arrogant and dangerous.  
 

Troubling.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, chum said:

 

But, we don't have a vaccine, by definition. 

Imagine if we could vaccinate against the simple common cold, how great would that be?

Imagine the Delta Variant only as bad as a common cold. How great would that be?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, chum said:

Im asking questions, not presenting facts. I know questions a frowned on here, but oh well, inquiring minds want to know.

When a Trumpaloon asks questions it’s not because they want to hear an answer, they’re preparing to flood the zone with BS.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Danceswithoctopus said:

Sure. Whatever. What does this have to do with Covid?

It seems that "leaky vaccines" is just the latest round of bullshit the bullshit machine is hitting the bullshit followers with. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

And here we have the crux of the problem.  You are incapable of drawing conclusions from a review of data from a wide variety of reputable sources.  You find people who can arrogant and dangerous.  
 

Troubling.

The crux of the problem, as I've mentioned before, is that you are oblivious to the limits of your knowledge: you don't know what you don't know.

I have no problem with people speculating, as long as they do not present their speculation as fact. You lack that insight into yourself.

I find YOU arrogant and dangerous for the above-referenced reason.

Link to post
Share on other sites