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Aft facing engine (Volvo D2 60) - “Clavin up” if you wish.


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This is an HR 400.  We are digging into this boat and sorting through its details.   I believe the aft facing engine with the sail drive (SD) forward to be a hold over from the 40C a center cockpit design that utilizes the same hull.  

We are trying to understand trade offs and what we simply do not know. 
I’m finding very little help from google.  Anyone have experience with this setup or random “Cliff Calvin” thoughts to share?

210311082755_HR400interior003.jpg

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Interesting arrangement.

I assume they are trying to carry over as much as possible from the CC version without trying to re-engineer the installation, including such things as the floor pan containing the engine mounts. I don't know, but I suspect the drive leg can be mounted facing forward or aft relative to the "front" of the engine, and it happens to work best in this orientation for this installation

The question might be how accessibility for service is different between the AC version and the CC version.

Looking at the detail inboard profile drawings on the HR website, the engine and drive seem to fit nicely in that position and orientation.

The particular interior plan you have posted is probably the one I would have chosen out of the three shown on their website.

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One random thought is that set up puts the prop very forward. This combined with the twin rudders would seem to make close quaters maneuvering challenging since the prop wash will end up far away from the rudders. My last boat had the prop in a similar spot and reverse was an adventure.

The drawing shows bow and stern thrusters which at first seems to be overkill for a 40 footer, but I suspect will be a necessity, probably with some type of coordinated joystick control system.

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It’s a pretty common setup in modern French boats, don’t really understand why the do it as there is usually plenty of real estate aft of the engine for the SD.

Only reason I can see is it saves a foot of space as you can fit the saildrive under the lower companionway step, but it’s a lousy trade off if it impairs front engine access..

My only concern would be front engine access, if that is OK it’s not a big deal..

I have a spare engine and saildrive from a boat with that configuration in my shed, in case my older normally oriented VP craps out, the mechanics are all the same, the only difference is in the adaptor plate half way down the saildrive leg..

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Here is a photo from their website. The front (now back) of the engine is up against the stern thruster so it all comes down to side access panels. The raw water impeller certainly looks hard to get to. I assume if you choose the single aft cabin version you will have an easier time getting to the motor through the aft storage compartment.

 

 

image.png

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It is strictly a question of access. Saildrives have the same ratio in forward and reverse,  and don't care which way you run them. In the conventional "engine forward" mounting, you can run either a left hand or right hand prop, by merely reversing the shift lever. 

Bow and stern thrusters on a sailboat indicates the target market is first time boat buyers. 

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2 hours ago, steele said:

Here is a photo from their website. The front (now back) of the engine is up against the stern thruster so it all comes down to side access panels. The raw water impeller certainly looks hard to get to. I assume if you choose the single aft cabin version you will have an easier time getting to the motor through the aft storage compartment.

 

 

image.png

The service side of that engine…injectors, pump, filters  ….has very poor access 

82C38102-9049-4ED7-A24A-EFC487BC164E.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

The service side of that engine…injectors, pump, filters  ….has very poor access 

82C38102-9049-4ED7-A24A-EFC487BC164E.jpeg

Not sure...looking at the diagram, there may be an access panel there where the filters are. I agree that this is a key question though!  I have a D2 55.  You need to be able to have access to that side to change the oil and fuel filters.

So far I like my D2 55. Yes it is mounted in reverse in the engine room. But it runs like a top, and I can access the "front" of the engine (belt, alternator) by lying on an old cushion placed on top of the engine.

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2 hours ago, steele said:

Here is a photo from their website. The front (now back) of the engine is up against the stern thruster so it all comes down to side access panels. The raw water impeller certainly looks hard to get to. I assume if you choose the single aft cabin version you will have an easier time getting to the motor through the aft storage compartment.

 

 

image.png

Looking at the plan view of the boat, there is at least 300mm between the aft face of the engine and the bow thruster. You should be able to do almost anything in the amount of space.

You should see how little space there is between the face of the 420 hp diesel on my boat and the forward engine room bulkhead.  Try about 100mm to change alternator belts and the fresh water pump, if necessary.

I see tons of room around the engine in the HR at both the front and the back. 

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It is great that the probable distance at the end of the engine should allow reasonable access to the belts, as well as the cooling circuits. I have a D1-30 in a similar tight space and the biggest challenge is getting to the oil and fuel filters. The space between the engine and the side wall is smaller than than the width of the filters so getting them out is like a jenga game, all the while slopping fuel and oil. I use 1/2 a role of paper towels every time. I do not have side panals, thank you J boats. It looks like the HR 400 has good side access.

I like the HR, it would be a geat PNW cruiser. I wonder if they would build one with no exterior wood and perhaps a single midline rudder? 

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4 hours ago, steele said:

It is great that the probable distance at the end of the engine should allow reasonable access to the belts, as well as the cooling circuits. I have a D1-30 in a similar tight space and the biggest challenge is getting to the oil and fuel filters. The space between the engine and the side wall is smaller than than the width of the filters so getting them out is like a jenga game, all the while slopping fuel and oil. I use 1/2 a role of paper towels every time. I do not have side panals, thank you J boats. It looks like the HR 400 has good side access.

I like the HR, it would be a geat PNW cruiser. I wonder if they would build one with no exterior wood and perhaps a single midline rudder? 

I have been looking at photos and drawings to confirm access to filters belts impeller etc.  and you are correct there are side access panels, as well as front and rear access areas to get to these items.  Might be tight but doable I’m OK with jenga as long as I win.   BTW the new HRs CAN be had without teak decks.  They still have teak cap rails and details in the cockpit but I’m willing to deal with that.  Funny you can still get a single rudder HR 37.2 but it has teak decks While the new models (340 and 400) can be had with only two rudders with or without teak decks.  Plan is to leave it in the Baltic for a couple years than bring it home to PNW. - we also think it will be good for here.  

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3 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Best look after that engine - with a hull shape like that in the PNW you will be motoring a lot unless there are clouds of sail area.

SA/D is 19+…. With the fat ass it has it could be sticky but also comfortable- fair point already noted.   

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7 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

Not sure...looking at the diagram, there may be an access panel there where the filters are. I agree that this is a key question though!  I have a D2 55.  You need to be able to have access to that side to change the oil and fuel filters.

So far I like my D2 55. Yes it is mounted in reverse in the engine room. But it runs like a top, and I can access the "front" of the engine (belt, alternator) by lying on an old cushion placed on top of the engine.

I’m fairly certain there is an access panel at the filter locations but confirming this week with HR.  

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11 hours ago, DDW said:

It is strictly a question of access. Saildrives have the same ratio in forward and reverse,  and don't care which way you run them. In the conventional "engine forward" mounting, you can run either a left hand or right hand prop, by merely reversing the shift lever. 

Bow and stern thrusters on a sailboat indicates the target market is first time boat buyers. 

Actually the target audience is overcrowded marinas 

In addition those twin rudder boats turn circle is large , add roller furl headsails to the stem and you have a very difficult boat to maneuver in tight quarters 

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7 hours ago, Elegua said:

Anyone else have to do the change the oil filter in a plastic bag? 

Nope because I took one look at the stupid place the oil filter was located, then went & bought an oil filter relocation kit and moved the damn thing to where I want it.

Now I just stick a basin under the vertical filter and unscrew it. Bonus, I can also fill the new filter before installing it.

I'd do the same for the fuel filter except - I added more & better ones elsewhere.

FKT

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10 hours ago, Elegua said:

Anyone else have to do the change the oil filter in a plastic bag? 

Yep.

I sometimes you think the engine designers do it as a bad Joke, putting the oil filters horizontal. Maybe there is a functional reason for doing that, but I don't know what it is.

Plastic bag, lots of paper towels, more than a few curse words.

My main engine has a permanent electric oil change system, but it can't suck the oil out of the filter. It is, however, an easy way to remove 99% of the 6.5 gallons of oil the engine holds.

The generator just has a drain plug at the bottom with a built-in valve. Changing the oil on that one (2.2 qt) is about as messy as the oil change on the main engine.

The only one that's easy to change without creating a mess is the one on the gearbox.

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Actually the target audience is overcrowded marinas 

In addition those twin rudder boats turn circle is large , add roller furl headsails to the stem and you have a very difficult boat to maneuver in tight quarters 

What do the furling headsails have to do with maneuvering the boat in tight quarters?

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27 minutes ago, accnick said:

What do the furling headsails have to do with maneuvering the boat in tight quarters?

Windage … the bow blows down , the boat pivots on it keel 

if you expect a windy dock maneuver drop the headsails 

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27 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Windage … the bow blows down , the boat pivots on it keel 

if you expect a windy dock maneuver drop the headsails 

I've never felt the additional windage of tightly-furled headsails created that much of an issue with maneuvering under power. Maybe it's just the boats I've owned.

If it's going to be windy inside the marine, it's probably windy outside. Dropping the headsails outside in those conditions is probably more problematic than maneuvering the boat inside the marine with the headsails furled, especially if you sail short-handed.

Your experience may vary.

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20 hours ago, accnick said:

Interesting arrangement.

I assume they are trying to carry over as much as possible from the CC version without trying to re-engineer the installation, including such things as the floor pan containing the engine mounts. I don't know, but I suspect the drive leg can be mounted facing forward or aft relative to the "front" of the engine, and it happens to work best in this orientation for this installation

The question might be how accessibility for service is different between the AC version and the CC version. Indeed one of the two  primary questions we have.  Crawling to the back of the engine space in lumpy weather is a recipe for turning green.  

Looking at the detail inboard profile drawings on the HR website, the engine and drive seem to fit nicely in that position and orientation. Agreed.

The particular interior plan you have posted is probably the one I would have chosen out of the three shown on their website.   Yes we like the extra storage and aft head.

 

THANKS!

 

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Nope because I took one look at the stupid place the oil filter was located, then went & bought an oil filter relocation kit and moved the damn thing to where I want it.

Now I just stick a basin under the vertical filter and unscrew it. Bonus, I can also fill the new filter before installing it.

I'd do the same for the fuel filter except - I added more & better ones elsewhere.

FKT

Nice.  Always remember the fuel filter set up but relocating the oil filter  solid!

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2 hours ago, accnick said:

Yep.

I sometimes you think the engine designers do it as a bad Joke, putting the oil filters horizontal. Maybe there is a functional reason for doing that, but I don't know what it is.

Plastic bag, lots of paper towels, more than a few curse words.

My main engine has a permanent electric oil change system, but it can't suck the oil out of the filter. It is, however, an easy way to remove 99% of the 6.5 gallons of oil the engine holds.

The generator just has a drain plug at the bottom with a built-in valve. Changing the oil on that one (2.2 qt) is about as messy as the oil change on the main engine.

The only one that's easy to change without creating a mess is the one on the gearbox.

No idea. But they definitely were not thinking boats that have self-contained, integrated fluid and gas collection receptacles (the bilge).

The English who designed the engine were silly enough to put the filter horizontal. The French who built the boat were smart were smart enough to have a sump that doesn't go to the rest of the bilge. 

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1 hour ago, accnick said:

I've never felt the additional windage of tightly-furled headsails created that much of an issue with maneuvering under power. Maybe it's just the boats I've owned.

If it's going to be windy inside the marine, it's probably windy outside. Dropping the headsails outside in those conditions is probably more problematic than maneuvering the boat inside the marine with the headsails furled, especially if you sail short-handed.

Your experience may vary.

For a shoal draft boat with the CB up, it can be quite dramatic. When I first bought my boat and pulled into the fairway I was not expecting it to go head downwind into the cul-de-sac so quickly and then mush around when trying to turn it upwind. I got very close to out of ideas, boat speed and sea-room. 

The good news is that it makes the boat very easy to "park". Just strap the main, pull-up the board and turn the helm up and she'll park-up and mush sideways. 

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9 minutes ago, Elegua said:

No idea. But they definitely were not thinking boats that have self-contained, integrated fluid and gas collection receptacles (the bilge).

The English who designed the engine were silly enough to put the filter horizontal. The French who built the boat were smart were smart enough to have a sump that doesn't go to the rest of the bilge. 

Question:

        Why didn't the English invent television?

Answer:

        Because they couldn't figure out a way to make it leak oil

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17 hours ago, DDW said:

It is strictly a question of access. Saildrives have the same ratio in forward and reverse,  and don't care which way you run them. In the conventional "engine forward" mounting, you can run either a left hand or right hand prop, by merely reversing the shift lever. 
This is our other big question.  Is there anything unique about about the sail drive setup that requires less available parts?  The little info I have found from Volvo suggest that the SD leg  is simply rotated 180.

I hadn’t thought about the Right vs Left hand prop detail but sounds like that has an easy solution…

Bow and stern thrusters on a sailboat indicates the target market is first time boat buyers. 

This may be accurate but funny for me I am not a fan of thrusters. More complexity increased battery requirements etc.  not to mention that my preferred maneuvering orientation is docking in reverse which IMO allows the bow to pivot about the keel more easily.  One or two rudders does not seam to affect this you simply need flow over the rudder(s).  All that noted we will have it with a bow thruster but NO stern thruster.  Not first timers just getting a bit older. 
 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Elegua said:

For a shoal draft boat with the CB up, it can be quite dramatic. When I first bought my boat and pulled into the fairway I was not expecting it to go head downwind into the cul-de-sac so quickly and then mush around when trying to turn it upwind. I got very close to out of ideas, boat speed and sea-room. 

The good news is that it makes the boat very easy to "park". Just strap the main, pull-up the board and turn the helm up and she'll park-up and mush sideways. 

I've never owned a shoal-draft sailboat or a centerboarder bigger than a dinghy.

My powerboat only draws 4' and has quite a bit of windage, which sometimes makes life interesting. I have reduced windage a bit by removing the weathercloths that used to enclose the aft part of the flying bridge. Right now the windage is significant, but not overwhelming in its influence on handling in a breeze.

But I do have a bowthruster, and a big prop that moves a lot of water in a predictable direction over a good-sized rudder, so we muddle through.

Usually, we adapt to the handling characteristics of the boats we own. The only hard and fast rule is: don't try to force it to do something it doesn't want it to do.

Sort of like some horses I've known. My first wife could make them do anything. I was just along for the ride.

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32 minutes ago, Elegua said:

The English who designed the engine were silly enough to put the filter horizontal. 

It wasn't the English. The D55/D75 is a Norwegian (Volvo) branded marinization of an American (Catapillar) company's joint venture to produce a Japanese (Shibuara) engine in China. 

It is a pretty good engine, found in a lot of construction and farm equipment. All of the normal service items are accessed from the proper right side, on the left is the alternator, starter, heat exchanger, and fuse box. Most engine parts available from a New Holland tractor dealer. 

I believe the Ford Performance division's https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6880-B50right angle filter adapter fits on this engine though I haven't tried it yet. A Northern lights 5 KW genset is also a Shibuara engine, with the same filter mounting issues. 

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Just now, DDW said:

It wasn't the English. The D55/D75 is a Norwegian (Volvo) branded marinization of an American (Catapillar) company's joint venture to produce a Japanese (Shibuara) engine in China. 

It is a pretty good engine, found in a lot of construction and farm equipment. All of the normal service items are accessed from the proper right side, on the left is the alternator, starter, heat exchanger, and fuse box. Most engine parts available from a New Holland tractor dealer. 

I believe the Ford Performance division's https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6880-B50right angle filter adapter fits on this engine though I haven't tried it yet. A Northern lights 5 KW genset is also a Shibuara engine, with the same filter mounting issues. 

The diesel engine world is incredibly incestuous. I don't know the background of this engine, but I was referring to my own Perkins 4-108. 

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33 minutes ago, Epi-sailor said:

 

This is our other big question.  Is there anything unique about about the sail drive setup that requires less available parts?  The little info I have found from Volvo suggest that the SD leg  is simply rotated 180.

The installation instructions with the engine state that you just turn the lower leg 180 degrees. The gear shift can be mounted in either direction. I think the saildrive is the same one as on my D2/75, built by Hirth/ZF. It is as good as saildrives get in my opinion. The anode can be changed without disturbing the prop, and the Hirth style clutch does not suffer the problems of the Yanmar cone clutches. It even states that full throttle shifts are permissible if necessary, though not recommended as standard practice. 

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8 minutes ago, Elegua said:

The diesel engine world is incredibly incestuous. I don't know the background of this engine, but I was referring to my own Perkins 4-108. 

The D2/55 also has some Perkins DNA. I don't think it shares anything with the Perkins, but Catapillar bought the rights to Perkins some time ago. Cast into the block near the top it says "Perkins/CAT". But the engine is a development of Shibaura, the same company that makes the ubiquitous IHI turbochargers. 

The D2/75 has the IHI turbocharger, curiously the ONLY other difference in the engine construction is the setting of the fuel rack stop screw. Every other part has the same part number - injectors, pump, pistons, governor, etc. 

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15 hours ago, Elegua said:

Anyone else have to do the change the oil filter in a plastic bag? 

I use a plastic bag and a paper towel, but I change the filter when the oil is cold and mostly drained out of said filter. Then I run the engine to warm up the oil so I can have the usual dog-and-pony show trying to suck thick hot oil through a small tube from a location I can't see.

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I put a zip lock bag inside the cardboard box that the new filter came in ,,, then wrap the whole assembly around the oil filter to be remove 

 

and once the filter is off you can rest the box with old filter down and not risk the old oily filter tipping over 

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52 minutes ago, accnick said:

I've never owned a shoal-draft sailboat or a centerboarder bigger than a dinghy.

My powerboat only draws 4' and has quite a bit of windage, which sometimes makes life interesting. I have reduced windage a bit by removing the weathercloths that used to enclose the aft part of the flying bridge. Right now the windage is significant, but not overwhelming in its influence on handling in a breeze.

But I do have a bowthruster, and a big prop that moves a lot of water in a predictable direction over a good-sized rudder, so we muddle through.

Usually, we adapt to the handling characteristics of the boats we own. The only hard and fast rule is: don't try to force it to do something it doesn't want it to do.

Sort of like some horses I've known. My first wife could make them do anything. I was just along for the ride.

Neither had I at that point, so it was a real surprise to me. 

Our boat a big spade rudder positioned well aft that it's close to the prop, so you do have good rudder authority, but....drawing 4'6" with the board up and a decent sized rig that's pretty far forward; after you add the bagged staysail and furling genoa, its natural inclination is to lie almost DDW and if you have the board up it take a bit of flow over the rudder by way or by prop to keep the bow pointed into the wind.  The only helpful part of its drunken shopping cart tendencies is you can slide the boat in a crab for a boat length or so. Board down it's a bit more normal under power, but not completely.  

So maybe you now have a CB boat equivalent with better control authority? :D

 

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1 minute ago, Elegua said:

Neither had I at that point, so it was a real surprise to me. 

Our boat a big spade rudder positioned well aft that it's close to the prop, so you do have good rudder authority, but....drawing 4'6" with the board up and a decent sized rig that's pretty far forward; after you add the bagged staysail and furling genoa, its natural inclination is to lie almost DDW and if you have the board up it take a bit of flow over the rudder by way or by prop to keep the bow pointed into the wind.  The only helpful part of its drunken shopping cart tendencies is you can slide the boat in a crab for a boat length or so. Board down it's a bit more normal under power, but not completely.  

So maybe you now have a CB boat equivalent with better control authority? :D

 

Could be. At least I have a keel for directional stability, unlike a lot of modern powerboats.

I had never figured out why Back Cove powerboats came standard with bow and stern thrusters. Then I saw one hauled out: no keel, prop in a tunnel, tiny spade rudder. Holy crap! You need five knots of way on before you can turn the damn thing.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I use a plastic bag and a paper towel, but I change the filter when the oil is cold and mostly drained out of said filter. Then I run the engine to warm up the oil so I can have the usual dog-and-pony show trying to suck thick hot oil through a small tube from a location I can't see.

Perhaps I am missing something, but the only way I can think to make this work is to put the new filter on before running the engine to warm and drain the oil. You are therefore running old oil through your brand new filter. Probably not a big deal as long as the old oil is not too contaminated, but still a bit of a worry.

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11 hours ago, steele said:

Perhaps I am missing something, but the only way I can think to make this work is to put the new filter on before running the engine to warm and drain the oil. You are therefore running old oil through your brand new filter. Probably not a big deal as long as the old oil is not too contaminated, but still a bit of a worry.

Or I can change the oil and come back in a few days and change the filter, which is also theoretically bad. However, I change both the filter and the oil well before recommended time so I don't fret about it.

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19 hours ago, DDW said:

The D2/55 also has some Perkins DNA. I don't think it shares anything with the Perkins, but Catapillar bought the rights to Perkins some time ago. Cast into the block near the top it says "Perkins/CAT". But the engine is a development of Shibaura, the same company that makes the ubiquitous IHI turbochargers. 

My D2/55 also has a Perkins plate attached to the block.

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