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They've taken some serious license with changing the content from the books.  Since the book series is almost a religion, that's not going over well.  In addition, they cast a angsty teen with botox lips as Rand, when he's supposed to be an approachable country boy with a solid head on his shoulders.  They are giving it the same treatment they have to the Shannara series.... Essentially making it for the Twilight sparkly vampire crowd. Very disappointing. 

(yes, I'm very disappointed that the Hollywood Idiots are potentially ruining such an iconic piece of fantasy writing). 

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I have read the series 3 times through and watched 2 of the episodes so far.

I have to say I am not thrilled, maybe 3 Snags out of 5 at best. Maybe less.

Why not 5?

The CGI is cheesy in some shots, like a river in the background not flowing. That is kind of minor.

*spoilers follow sort of*

 

 

My 2 major beefs are the woke casting disaster and major plot changes. I have no problem in general with various ethnic and racial groups in film and TV, but they REALLY screwed this up. First off they got jumped up in age from 15-16-17 to apparently about 20. Instead of being kids getting into good-natured trouble, they are more like college bros knocking back a pint in the pub. Then there is the "diverse" village. What The Actual Fuck??? Two Rivers is like some little inbred mountain town in Appalachia where everyone is related and outsiders very rarely visit. Two Rivers is the end of the road, there is nothing but wilderness past there. No one comes there and for a Two Rivers lad, going all the way to Tairen Ferry is like us going to Brazil. Probably most of the villagers haven't been 20 miles from where they were born in their lives. They are so homogeneous that Rand's red hair stands out like a neon sign in what is otherwise a 100% brown or blonde haired population.  To make it even worse, every racial group in real life has a Wheel Of Time analogue, there are plenty of jobs for all in the series. If memory serves, Nynaeve is also a stunning blonde in the books. In the books Rand is NOT boning Egwene and there is no way in 7 hells is Lan is jumping in a hot tube nude with Moiraine.

In the books:

Two Rivers - more or less hillbillies whose families have been there for hundreds of years at least.

Sea Folk - Black

Seanchan - Asian

Aile - Red hair by appearance, North African raiding tribe by culture. Rand having red hair is a major plot point BTW.

As the books go along, the characters end up in major multicultural cities, which are a big deal to them because they come from the town that people in BFE think is beyond BFE.

Lan is Asian when in the books he is a Borderlander, which are not Asians, he looks like a Seanchan.

Plot points:

Much backstory exposition from the start of the first book is missing. Perrin is a KID, he is an APPRENTICE blacksmith. He is NOT married. This is a HUGE departure form the book and adding him accidentally killing his wife is utterly bizarre.  Nynaeve is not kidnapped by trollocs. Matt is not a thief fencing loot to Paidin Faine, he is a prankster. His parents are not drunks.

So.........a slapdash woke-ified mess that is kind of OK at best.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

f memory serves, Nynaeve is also a stunning blonde in the books. In the books Rand is NOT boning Egwene and there is no way in 7 hells is Lan is jumping in a hot tube nude with Moiraine.

In the books:

Two Rivers - more or less hillbillies whose families have been there for hundreds of years at least.

Nynaeve and Egwene are both brunettes. Cenn Buie is "dark as an old root."

 

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10 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Lan is Asian when in the books he is a Borderlander, which are not Asians, he looks like a Seanchan.

A lot of the borderlanders like the Shienarans are described with topknots and so on, a very Asian cultural thing. Not all for sure, but there's not reason to assume the Malkieri are so far off them.

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I've read the books a few times.  Not sure I could watch it on TV.  Partly because I don't watch TV, partly because the story is too big for TV.

I'll leave it for the people who forgot how to read.

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28 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I have read the series 3 times through and watched 2 of the episodes so far.

I have to say I am not thrilled, maybe 3 Snags out of 5 at best. Maybe less.

Why not 5?

The CGI is cheesy in some shots, like a river in the background not flowing. That is kind of minor.

*spoilers follow sort of*

 

 

My 2 major beefs are the woke casting disaster and major plot changes. I have no problem in general with various ethnic and racial groups in film and TV, but they REALLY screwed this up. First off they got jumped up in age from 15-16-17 to apparently about 20. Instead of being kids getting into good-natured trouble, they are more like college bros knocking back a pint in the pub. Then there is the "diverse" village. What The Actual Fuck??? Two Rivers is like some little inbred mountain town in Appalachia where everyone is related and outsiders very rarely visit. Two Rivers is the end of the road, there is nothing but wilderness past there. No one comes there and for a Two Rivers lad, going all the way to Tairen Ferry is like us going to Brazil. Probably most of the villagers haven't been 20 miles from where they were born in their lives. They are so homogeneous that Rand's red hair stands out like a neon sign in what is otherwise a 100% brown or blonde haired population.  To make it even worse, every racial group in real life has a Wheel Of Time analogue, there are plenty of jobs for all in the series. If memory serves, Nynaeve is also a stunning blonde in the books. In the books Rand is NOT boning Egwene and there is no way in 7 hells is Lan is jumping in a hot tube nude with Moiraine.

In the books:

Two Rivers - more or less hillbillies whose families have been there for hundreds of years at least.

Sea Folk - Black

Seanchan - Asian

Aile - Red hair by appearance, North African raiding tribe by culture. Rand having red hair is a major plot point BTW.

As the books go along, the characters end up in major multicultural cities, which are a big deal to them because they come from the town that people in BFE think is beyond BFE.

Lan is Asian when in the books he is a Borderlander, which are not Asians, he looks like a Seanchan.

Plot points:

Much backstory exposition from the start of the first book is missing. Perrin is a KID, he is an APPRENTICE blacksmith. He is NOT married. This is a HUGE departure form the book and adding him accidentally killing his wife is utterly bizarre.  Nynaeve is not kidnapped by trollocs. Matt is not a thief fencing loot to Paidin Faine, he is a prankster. His parents are not drunks.

So.........a slapdash woke-ified mess that is kind of OK at best.

 

 

I agree they've both aged-up and removed a lot of the innocence from the characters. They're all a bit older, and the puritanical morality of the Two Rivers folk has pretty much been washed away. It changes aspects of the story to be sure, but I don't think it will change where the characters end up down the road so much. Though a lot of the humor will be lost with the men not being so prudish.

A lot of the changes I see are to deal with the difference between written media and visual. You simply can't get into people's heads to tell what they're thinking, and a LOT of what you see in the books is from the Point of View character and their internal monologues and thoughts. For a show or movie, you have to completely turn that inside out because it's such a different way to tell the story.

And the other difference is that like the LOTR movies, the TV show is geared to attract watchers without familiarity with the source material. So you have to shorten and tighten to keep the pacing to keep them engaged. We know what is going on, but slowing things down will drive watchers away. Fan service for book readers is important, but if the show is popular like GOT, we'll been a tiny minority, just like it was there. And GOT made a lot of the same sacrifices for the same reasons - compositing or eliminating characters and subplots, removing locations for budget, etc. etc.

The whole ethnicity of the cast thing has been bludgeoned to death in other fora, but on my most recent re-read prior to the show...I paid a lot more attention to descriptions as a result of those casting discussions. And having re-read the first half of the series within the last two months, I don't have any real issues with the way people have been cast. There are a lot of darker skinned/haired/eyed people in the Two Rivers. Rand still stands out, I didn't see any other gingers there.

I wouldn't call it a mess so far. I'd call it an...adaption.

You've got 14 books, about 12,000 pages, and 4.4 million words of story. And you've got eight one-hour episodes over about seven seasons to tell it. So you've got about 60 hours of screen time which gives you not a heck of a lot of time to tell a really complex story. They're going to have to cut 3/4 of it anyway just to make it slow it down enough so it only feels rushed.

My wife and I were talking about how they could have taken season one as far as the meetup at the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn and ended it with them fleeing the inn and have a really good season. But there is no way they could finish the story at this pace; they'd need like 25 seasons. This season is supposed to encompass The Eye of The World and some of The Great Hunt and even a few elements of The Dragon Reborn. So it's going to be cut a LOT, and fast paced. Backstory is going to suffer.

So far I'd called it an OK adaptation, if you're willing to accept the sacrifices needed to give it broad market appeal on a visual medium, while not sacrificing the core of plot, theme, and character. We'll see. Probably 7/10 so far, which isn't bad. We're looking forward to episode 4.

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the books have something like 2800 named characters so something is going to be lost in the translation, I am okay with that. It won't be the same as the books, I do have the issue with them all being older than in the books but I can live with that too. Having said all that I would watch Rosamund Pike read the phone book and be perfectly content.

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4 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

less gratuitous nudity is a reason to watch?.

There was a lot more gratuitous nudity in the “Game of Thrones” than in “Song of Ice and Fire”.  Given the number of women who fall in love with Rand (or try and ingratiate themselves to him) in the books there is probably scope for WOT to put nude GOT by at least 2:1

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35 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

There was a lot more gratuitous nudity in the “Game of Thrones” than in “Song of Ice and Fire”.  Given the number of women who fall in love with Rand (or try and ingratiate themselves to him) in the books there is probably scope for WOT to put nude GOT by at least 2:1

Yeah - Rand ends up with three wives to bang, so they could porn the hell out of it towards the end :DB)

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2 hours ago, Not My Real Name said:

So far I'd called it an OK adaptation, if you're willing to accept the sacrifices needed to give it broad market appeal on a visual medium, while not sacrificing the core of plot, theme, and character. We'll see. Probably 7/10 so far, which isn't bad. We're looking forward to episode 4.

You only get 1-5 Snags, or maybe 0-5, so my 3 Snags isn't that far off your 7/10.

I am watching the third episode in a bit. I like it well enough to keep watching. I know a literal adaptation would bore everyone to death twice over, there are several "movement" books where nothing happens for 1,000 pages except everyone moves from place to place.

One thing I think they have TOTALLY failed at so far is the complex gender dynamic of their town. Rand and the rest were always tongue tied and confused about how to talk to girls and Nynaeve was probably at least as powerful as whatever they had for a mayor. (was it Egwene's father??) I do not get why they had Perrin older and married either - where did THAT idea come from?????

Also how did they run into Whitecloaks just past Taeren Ferry? Aren't they a few books and many miles in the future? Another nitpick - since when did Aes Sedai take apart buildings for ammunition?

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2 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

There was a lot more gratuitous nudity in the “Game of Thrones” than in “Song of Ice and Fire”.  Given the number of women who fall in love with Rand (or try and ingratiate themselves to him) in the books there is probably scope for WOT to put nude GOT by at least 2:1

100% certain there is rule 34 fanfic out there that would curl your hair...

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5 hours ago, Waiex191 said:

I've read the books a few times.  Not sure I could watch it on TV.  Partly because I don't watch TV, partly because the story is too big for TV.

I'll leave it for the people who forgot how to read.

This…..much like Dune….I just cannot imagine any TV or movie doing justice to the books….which frankly took some time to get through. It’s a massive amount of material and depth of story. I have learned that some books simply cannot be translated adequately to film. Hobbit/Lord of the Rings came close. But that’s rare. 
 

And TV……meh…..

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3 hours ago, Point Break said:

And TV……meh…..

The trend toward streaming services and original content over the last two decades has really changed the face of "TV" from what we grew up on with episodic network television.

Some of these shows have morphed closer to long-form movies broken into episodes than a weekly show to keep you coming in your seat for car, chip and toothpaste ads. Plot lines take a season or more to evolve and resolve, and in some cases the entire series is one huge plot like Game of Thrones. Story telling takes a life of it's own when you've got many more hours to build and twist the plot and develop characters and relationships.

Particularly when you consider than advertising draw isn't so much a thing, since they're not irrevocably sliced into the show like olives in a pimiento loaf and the revenue stream comes from elsewhere.

We're a long way where you set up the characters and their relationship and tension in the pilot, then kept shaking the box until you jump the shark.

While I've still retained a very strong snobbery about some forms of TV (like reality TV, which I have zero interest in), I think these type of productions fall into a different category than the TV we sneered at 20-30 years ago.

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13 minutes ago, Not My Real Name said:

The trend toward streaming services and original content over the last two decades has really changed the face of "TV" from what we grew up on with episodic network television.

Some of these shows have morphed closer to long-form movies broken into episodes than a weekly show to keep you coming in your seat for car, chip and toothpaste ads. Plot lines take a season or more to evolve and resolve, and in some cases the entire series is one huge plot like Game of Thrones. Story telling takes a life of it's own when you've got many more hours to build and twist the plot and develop characters and relationships.

Particularly when you consider than advertising draw isn't so much a thing, since they're not irrevocably sliced into the show like olives in a pimiento loaf and the revenue stream comes from elsewhere.

We're a long way where you set up the characters and their relationship and tension in the pilot, then kept shaking the box until you jump the shark.

While I've still retained a very strong snobbery about some forms of TV (like reality TV, which I have zero interest in), I think these type of productions fall into a different category than the TV we sneered at 20-30 years ago.

I just don’t find very much interesting on the tube. Hundreds of channels and I can’t find anything really worth watching that holds my interest. A few nature shows here and there….a documentary or two…..last thing I watched was the Hemingway piece. I don’t pretend others don’t find value or interest…….I just don’t…….I wouldn’t mind seeing 5 summer stories again though :lol:.

Oh…..and the Wizard of Oz…..I never miss that. 

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just watched the first 3 episodes.  I'd give it about 7 out of 10.  They've stayed as close to the books as you could realistically expect.  I stopped reading around book 4 or 5, didn't feel like it was getting anywhere and I stopped giving a shit about the characters.

 

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4 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

just watched the first 3 episodes.  I'd give it about 7 out of 10.  They've stayed as close to the books as you could realistically expect.  I stopped reading around book 4 or 5, didn't feel like it was getting anywhere and I stopped giving a shit about the characters.

 

I know what you mean here. It wasn’t an easy read to get all the way to the end. I hung in there but stopped and started after about 5 books and then read a few books each time. Stubborn. 

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15 minutes ago, Point Break said:

I know what you mean here. It wasn’t an easy read to get all the way to the end. I hung in there but stopped and started after about 5 books and then read a few books each time. Stubborn. 

didn't help that like song of ice and fire I was reading them as they came out.

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SWMBO and I watched the first two tonight.  It bothered me that in the opening scene the two actors are running down a road that is obviously a vehicle track in a fantasy world that has no cars.  Even though there are wagons, wagon roads don't look like vehicle roads because the horses walk down the middle.  No excuse really.

It got better after that but not nearly as well done as GOT.  We will watch a few more episodes and make a decision about whether we will continue watching or not.  

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13 hours ago, Not My Real Name said:

We've got a thread for Foundation...this is epic fantasy like Game of Thrones, but more magic and less gratuitous nudity.

Anyone watching it? Anyone read the books?

First three episodes just dropped.

 

Cruising the world to binge watch netflix in the cabin.

You go girl.

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16 hours ago, Grrr... said:

  They are giving it the same treatment they have to the Shannara series....

My impressionable teenage soul weeps at what they did to Shannara.  That was one of my first fantasy forays - I remember reading the books on the school bus.  The only thing good about the TV adaptation was that it was SO bad, it snuffed out any hope instantly.  I'm not sure I got through 20 minutes.  

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Watched gthe trailer and not really sure if I'm goign to wade in.  Never actually finished the books. Stopped reding them around book 8 as I really didn't think that Robert knew how to finish them. Possibly I was right. I think that I'm possibly very interested in the LOTR series when in comes on Amazonhave to admit that I really didn't like Peter Jackson's "ideas" of how the LOTR and the Hobbit should be portrayed on the big screen. Only ever watched S1 E1 of GOT. Was deep into book 4 at the time and thought that it really wasn't all that great compared. Of course I really think that possibly George doesn't know how to finish writing the series either. Maybe Brandon Sanderson does.

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2 hours ago, hard aground said:

Stopped reding them around book 8 as I really didn't think that Robert knew how to finish them. Possibly I was right.

I was happy with the ending of the series.  Much more so than the Gunslinger/Dark Tower books.

Every big series seems to struggle at the 3/4 point.

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1 hour ago, Waiex191 said:

I was happy with the ending of the series.  Much more so than the Gunslinger/Dark Tower books.

Every big series seems to struggle at the 3/4 point.

Robert Jordan lost his way with endless detailed descriptions of EVERYTHING. Imagine a book about sailing across the Atlantic that devoted about 50 pages to every singe day. The new author that finished the series did a GREAT job.

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12 hours ago, Point Break said:

I know what you mean here. It wasn’t an easy read to get all the way to the end. I hung in there but stopped and started after about 5 books and then read a few books each time. Stubborn. 

 

11 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

didn't help that like song of ice and fire I was reading them as they came out.

Yeah, I started Eye of the World back around 1993 and very quickly caught up to the author on book six. So it was a 2-3 year wait for the new book to come out from 1996 onward. When the first new one came out I picked it up and was like "WTF is going on and who are these people" since I hadn't read it in a year or two and by the time A Crown of Swords came out the cast of characters had expanded quite a lot. So I went back and re-read.

I re-read for the next few, then realized that was madness as there was no clear end in sight. So I re-read the last immediate book right before the new hardback came out, and once or twice just the last 4-5 chapters of the prior book. No spoiling the last book, no confusion in the next one. I think I did a re-read before A Memory of Light was released, which came out after we started cruising.

It took a LOT of patience.

Still waiting for Winds of Winter or whatever George R.R. Martin's next book is called...

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12 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

just watched the first 3 episodes.  I'd give it about 7 out of 10.  They've stayed as close to the books as you could realistically expect.  I stopped reading around book 4 or 5, didn't feel like it was getting anywhere and I stopped giving a shit about the characters.

 

I very much disagree. There was NO REASON to make Perrin have a wife instead of being an apprentice blacksmith, NO REASON to act like one of the girls could be The Dragon, and so on. Most of these "improvements" do nothing for n00bs and annoy the people that read the series. It makes one wonder how many people involved in the show have read the books.

Imagine Star Trek started as a book and Spock got made a New Zealander instead of a Vulcan or something like that :rolleyes:

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10 hours ago, Rain Man said:

SWMBO and I watched the first two tonight.  It bothered me that in the opening scene the two actors are running down a road that is obviously a vehicle track in a fantasy world that has no cars.  Even though there are wagons, wagon roads don't look like vehicle roads because the horses walk down the middle.  No excuse really.

It got better after that but not nearly as well done as GOT.  We will watch a few more episodes and make a decision about whether we will continue watching or not.  

The sets, costumes, and CGI all seem a cut below GOT. I don't get it, this was reportedly a very expensive show to make???

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22 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

First off they got jumped up in age from 15-16-17 to apparently about 20. Instead of being kids getting into good-natured trouble, they are more like college bros knocking back a pint in the pub.

My wife and I watched the first two episodes again to take a closer look. I have several theories on aging up the characters and removing some of their charming naivete.

1) Amazon wanted this to be an adult show, not some superhero show on the CW for 14 year old girls. To avoid the Young Adult market, it was necessary to push them to their 20s and make them closer to the cusp of our concept of adulthood.

2) These actors are in for the long haul - 7-8 years of the show. While it's common to have 20-somethings play teenagers in some shows, it's often tough to pull off and not believable. By the end of this show, we may find a thirty-one year old Madeleine Madden playing a 16 year old Egwene to be a bit of a stretch.

3) So far we've only had a 3 second shot of Lan's bare ass. But there is a LOT of nudity in the books. And there's more sex in the show so far. If any of it gets more graphic, it legally easier to do and definitely easier to sell if everyone is an adult both on and off screen.

4) Ditto for the spanking. We've got a lot of spanking coming up. It may be easier to write it out of the story if everyone is older. Or execute it if you don't have a bunch of 15 year old girls getting birched and slippered.

 

 

(Yeah...for anyone who didn't notice my last two boats were named "Evenstar" and "Shadowfax" I'm definitely s Scifi/fantasy geek and always have been. Had a dog named Strider when I was 15...)

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3 minutes ago, Not My Real Name said:

4) Ditto for the spanking. We've got a lot of spanking coming up. It may be easier to write it out of the story if everyone is older. Or execute it if you don't have a bunch of 15 year old girls getting birched and slippered.

What was up with THAT?

Robert Jordan had some obsession with spanking, pretty much the entire WOT universe is full of women spanking each other :lol:

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3 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I very much disagree. There was NO REASON to make Perrin have a wife instead of being an apprentice blacksmith, NO REASON to act like one of the girls could be The Dragon, and so on. Most of these "improvements" do nothing for n00bs and annoy the people that read the series. It makes one wonder how many people involved in the show have read the books.

Imagine Star Trek started as a book and Spock got made a New Zealander instead of a Vulcan or something like that :rolleyes:

The show runner - Rafe Judkins - described the Wheel of Time as one of his favorite books growing up, and one of the things which helped him escape and deal with being different.

I think giving Perrin a wife then immediately fridging her is a (bad) way to demonstrate his future reluctance about that axe. But at 20, he may no longer be an apprentice, but I think the could have made it work.

I don't think it's quite as radical as a Vulcan-to-Kiwi switch. But it is more of a Spock shagging Uhura switch like we got in the 2009 J.J. Abrams Star Trek, which many viewed as unnecessary but seemed added to provide drama, romance, and some character insights.

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5 hours ago, hard aground said:

Watched gthe trailer and not really sure if I'm goign to wade in.  Never actually finished the books. Stopped reding them around book 8 as I really didn't think that Robert knew how to finish them. Possibly I was right. I think that I'm possibly very interested in the LOTR series when in comes on Amazonhave to admit that I really didn't like Peter Jackson's "ideas" of how the LOTR and the Hobbit should be portrayed on the big screen. Only ever watched S1 E1 of GOT. Was deep into book 4 at the time and thought that it really wasn't all that great compared. Of course I really think that possibly George doesn't know how to finish writing the series either. Maybe Brandon Sanderson does.

I'm pretty sure George knows how NOT to end it at this point.

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9 hours ago, hard aground said:

Watched gthe trailer and not really sure if I'm goign to wade in.  Never actually finished the books. Stopped reding them around book 8 as I really didn't think that Robert knew how to finish them. Possibly I was right. I think that I'm possibly very interested in the LOTR series when in comes on Amazonhave to admit that I really didn't like Peter Jackson's "ideas" of how the LOTR and the Hobbit should be portrayed on the big screen. Only ever watched S1 E1 of GOT. Was deep into book 4 at the time and thought that it really wasn't all that great compared. Of course I really think that possibly George doesn't know how to finish writing the series either. Maybe Brandon Sanderson does.

Robert didn't finish them

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8 hours ago, sledracr said:

Have never read the books.  worth the time?  and, where to start... "Eye of the World", or "New Spring" (the prequel)?

 

 

Eye of the World. New Spring you read somewhere around Book 5ish.

There are possible spoilers, and New Spring won't make much sense and be less enjoyable before you know the players.

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7 hours ago, Point Break said:

Skip the prequel…it’s meh. Eye of the world and drive on in order. 

Past book 5 there are one or two you could read the first and last chapter and be fine. It is better now the end is written, but when reading them as they got published you could get frustrated at the pace and wonder if it was EVER going to get to the finish before Jordan died. And then he did die.

The new author rocked, the last 3 or so are worth the trip :)

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16 hours ago, sledracr said:

Have never read the books.  worth the time?  and, where to start... "Eye of the World", or "New Spring" (the prequel)?

 

 

You are going to start getting bored around book 5.  You'll be questioning your life choices around book 8.  At book 10, youll be back to loving it again.

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On 11/21/2021 at 6:24 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Much backstory exposition from the start of the first book is missing. Perrin is a KID, he is an APPRENTICE blacksmith. He is NOT married. This is a HUGE departure form the book and adding him accidentally killing his wife is utterly bizarre. 

 

 

To be fair, Perrin accidentally killing his wife is excellent context for his later struggles around not letting the inner wolf take over. When Perrin goes bezerker mode, he goes all in.

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Here is my biggest issue:

Will the show last? 1st Season Game of Thones was 84% 5-star, 4% 1-star. WOT so far is 50%/25%, or half as many people give it one star as they do 5. If Amazon screws this up that will be it for EVER seeing this on screen, I doubt anyone else will try.

I hope they up their game a bit.

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7 hours ago, Jason AUS said:

To be fair, Perrin accidentally killing his wife is excellent context for his later struggles around not letting the inner wolf take over. When Perrin goes bezerker mode, he goes all in.

Perrin's wife and Lan banging Moiraine both complicate things farther along the story arc. AFAIK in the books Moiraine never gets laid, I think it is the Greens that have it off with the warders.

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Perrin's wife and Lan banging Moiraine both complicate things farther along the story arc. AFAIK in the books Moiraine never gets laid, I think it is the Greens that have it off with the warders.

Especially the Greens with multiple warders….

 

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Bought our first modern TV last night due to wife's "request" and signed onto Amazon.  So we have prime and I almost started watching it.  Instead the youngest and I watched episode 3 and 4 of the original Star Trek series.

So maybe I'll check it out.  I have misgivings though.

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Ok, I watched episode 1.  I'm having a hard time with the license they took.

The Dragon can be male or female?  Not in the book.

The hair braiding ceremony/river swim was a bit off.

I don't recall the Nynaeve origin story.

Where is Master Luhan?  This Perrin wife thing is right out.

Matt stealing jewlery to sell to Paidan Fain?

I think I'm more of a book person.

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On 11/24/2021 at 4:30 AM, kent_island_sailor said:

Perrin's wife and Lan banging Moiraine both complicate things farther along the story arc. AFAIK in the books Moiraine never gets laid, I think it is the Greens that have it off with the warders.

I didn't get any sense that Lan was banging Moiraine in the TV show. They are bonded, which more intimate than simply swapping bodily fluids. So a certain amount of...physical frankness and openness and a complete lack of modesty between them is not surprising given the pragmatic nature of their relationship.

I mean, with that bond if she eats a bad burrito, he feels it too.

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On 11/25/2021 at 4:58 AM, Waiex191 said:

Ok, I watched episode 1.  I'm having a hard time with the license they took.

The Dragon can be male or female?  Not in the book. Not in the show, either. That's just to rope the non-readers in.

The hair braiding ceremony/river swim was a bit off.

I don't recall the Nynaeve origin story. There wasn't one, she was Two Rivers born in the books.

Where is Master Luhan?  This Perrin wife thing is right out.

Matt stealing jewlery to sell to Paidan Fain? Arguably to provide for his sisters, but still off.

I think I'm more of a book person.

A lot of these changes have been rehashed elsewhere on various fan groups. Aging up the was a pragmatic necessity I think, but it creates other complications. Imagine an agrarian society where none of the three boys where married by 21? Seems unlikely.

And you can't have a cast of thousands with loads of back story and internal dialogue in a show like this.

I love the books, but three episodes into it I think they're doing a decent job with much of the feel of it, though there are many compromises needed to to the limitations of video format.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Episode 6 - a awful lot of talking heads, explaining what is happening.  Some interesting plot twists.  Then the cast does a Monthy Python ("and now for something completely different").  They need to move things along a bit quicker.

First epi of Season 6 - The Expanse dropped.  So far so good, but the production doesn't seem to be as crisp as it was in previous seasons.  

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I'll confess that I've been watching it.  But, it's killing me.  Moraine and Siuan lovers?  Oath rod used to banish?  The one power to open a waygate?  Waygate not in an orchard at Tar Valon?  The dragon can be a woman (still)?

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On 12/11/2021 at 4:13 PM, Waiex191 said:

I'll confess that I've been watching it.  But, it's killing me.  Moraine and Siuan lovers?  Oath rod used to banish?  The one power to open a waygate?  Waygate not in an orchard at Tar Valon?  The dragon can be a woman (still)?

I almost turned it off. The Dragon being female or even possibly female ruins the main plot point. A female dragon would just go kill the Dark One and all the Foresaken and then go shopping, no madness or breaking the world issues involved.

Siuan and Moraine as lesbians? What The Actual Fuck is THAT about :unsure:  The pandering to teen/20 something wokeness is really annoying. Also ongoing references to the Green warders all being bisexuals :rolleyes:

One clever thing though - in fine Aes Sedai fashion, Moraine swore to stay away from the Tower unless called back by Siuan Sanche instead of the Amerlyn Seat. This means if Siuan gets voted out of office or otherwise deposed, she can still undo the oath. Some fine wordplay there ;)

Last thing - did the books have Matt refusing to go through the waygate?

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EDIT- It turns out Moraine and Siuan really did have it off, but you don't know that from WOT.

Moiraine’s romance with Siuan in The Wheel of Time show is not only a nice nod to Jordan’s reference to them being “pillow friends” in the prequel novel New Spring,

I haven't read the prequel. My bad. BTW, why do they keep changing her name back and forth from Shu-On to Swan?

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Last thing - did the books have Matt refusing to go through the waygate?

I don't recall that.  Also, I thought Tear was on the ocean and that Siuan was part of a larger fishing village.  And what is this nonsense about her channeling as a child before going to the white tower?

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13 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

EDIT- It turns out Moraine and Siuan really did have it off, but you don't know that from WOT.

Moiraine’s romance with Siuan in The Wheel of Time show is not only a nice nod to Jordan’s reference to them being “pillow friends” in the prequel novel New Spring,

I haven't read the prequel. My bad. BTW, why do they keep changing her name back and forth from Shu-On to Swan?

Yeah, Pillow Friends are a thing in the tower.

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12 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Isn't that the case for most/all of the Aes Sedai?

 

12 hours ago, Waiex191 said:

I thought there had to be some training before they could channel that well. 

 

12 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Sometimes. One of the reasons girls get sent to the Tower is strong channellers can easily hurt or kill someone, including themselves, if they don't know what they are doing.

There are two types of channelers - those who can be trained to channel, and those who do it naturally.

The tower seeks out both, but the former group will never channel unless taught. The latter - including Egwene and Nynaeve, will start channeling on their own, no matter what. Of those, about 3/4 of them die, and 1 in 4 (like Nynaeve) manage enough mastery not to kill themselves or burn out.

There's not a huge difference, I think, in ultimate power.

Select for spoilered comment:

But there are HUGE implications in that difference for the Seanchan down the road.

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14 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I almost turned it off. The Dragon being female or even possibly female ruins the main plot point. A female dragon would just go kill the Dark One and all the Foresaken and then go shopping, no madness or breaking the world issues involved. This is 100% just to keep non-readers confused.

Siuan and Moraine as lesbians? What The Actual Fuck is THAT about :unsure:  The pandering to teen/20 something wokeness is really annoying. Also ongoing references to the Green warders all being bisexuals :rolleyes: There are suggestions of both, and comments that some Greens married all their warders. Though no clarification was made how all the plumbing got assembled off screen.

One clever thing though - in fine Aes Sedai fashion, Moraine swore to stay away from the Tower unless called back by Siuan Sanche instead of the Amerlyn Seat. This means if Siuan gets voted out of office or otherwise deposed, she can still undo the oath. Some fine wordplay there ;)

Last thing - did the books have Matt refusing to go through the waygate? Haven't see episode six yet, but no, they all went through the waygate the first time and were up in the blight at the Eye of the World.

 

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1 hour ago, LoopyGirdleSniffer said:

The dude that plays Mat left the show, so they had to find a way to get rid of him till they can find a new Mat

 They've got a new guy for season 2. I thought Barney Harris did all of season one though.

Will try to watch episode six today. It's been a busy week, with about half of it spent on planes or in airports.

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Min is now a barmaid :unsure:

 I have a feeling the Hunt for the Horn is going to get skipped right over.

Min was always a barmaid.  Are you thinking of Faile perhaps? 

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On 12/18/2021 at 6:16 PM, kent_island_sailor said:

My bad - I was thinking of Faile.

Moraine also has the Red Ajah hunting Matt. I am pretty sure THAT never happened!

the books could have been subtitled 'the endless walk', 'who gives a shit about tower politics' or 'the dragon has too many wives'. I love them and have everyone in hardcover but they are not perfect by any measure

 

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Sigh.  So Mat gets sick.  Instead of requiring an entire circle of 13 to heal him, Moraine just whips up a special sauce of "blue Ajah don't fucking heal people like that Yellow Ajah do" and poof, he's all good.  They they skip the entire portion of his convalescence in the tower, where you first find out that he's a freaking bad-ass with a quarterstaff, and we fail to meet the princes and princesses of Camaleyn (spelling?).

We ignore the fact that the ways aren't controlled by the power (how are they going to explain the trollocs moving through the ways NOW?), We don't develop any training of the girls, we ignore that the oath rod hurts like a son of bitch to use, and so on, and so on.  I don't remember Moraine being forced to kneel.  We show a shirtless water girl, but ignore that all meetings in the tower were held 'naked to the light' to prove only women were present.  I mean, just how much of the book are we going to throw out here?  Jesus H. Christ.

Everyone's like "Oh, an Ogier, neat".  When in the book, EVERYONE freaks out each time they see them because they're so rare no one really knows what they are.  Rand's like - oh hey I know what you are.  I'm cool with it.

Moraine is a lesbian who assumedly sleeps with Lan but Lan is actually for her bond to be broken (they only joke about it in the book).  It's just blah blah blah blah blah.  So annoyed.

/spoilers for those who have only watched the show, stop reading here/

Was that Eamon Valda that Egwene killed?    The Eamon Valda that's supposed to be the head of the white cloaks, and is one of the key figures in several books, is a master swordsman, and who is only challenged and loses control of the white cloaks in a dual of master swordsman killed by Galad, a prince of Camlaeyn, in like book 11 or something and brother to a character we should have already should have met who Rand marries?

I mean WHAT THE FUCK is going on?

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I just watched episode 8, the last one of the season.

They have made such a hash of this it should be called "A show loosely inspired by the Wheel of Time - sort of".

The Dark One looks either like a waiter at some chi-chi Manhattan restaurant or maybe someone about to go clubbing.

Nynaeve and Egwene, totally untrained, link with the sister of the king of Fal Dara and use some mighty amount of the source to kill about 20,000 trollocs. The sister didn't make it through Aes Sedai training, her only skill seemed to be lighting lamps, and all of a sudden they can do linking and channel huge amounts of power? WTF?

Moraine gets stilled by the Dark One too! I am sure THAT never happened in the books! Also Rand - completely untrained - can use a poweful s'angreal? WTF?????

More minor annoyances - can Egwene PLEASE magic that wart off her nose? I saw some other show where one of the characters was wearing the exact same sheepskin thing Rand wears. Apparently this is an off-the-rack thing, not a costume :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I just watched episode 8, the last one of the season.

They have made such a hash of this it should be called "A show loosely inspired by the Wheel of Time - sort of".

The Dark One looks either like a waiter at some chi-chi Manhattan restaurant or maybe someone about to go clubbing.

Nynaeve and Egwene, totally untrained, link with the sister of the king of Fal Dara and use some mighty amount of the source to kill about 20,000 trollocs. The sister didn't make it through Aes Sedai training, her only skill seemed to be lighting lamps, and all of a sudden they can do linking and channel huge amounts of power? WTF?

Moraine gets stilled by the Dark One too! I am sure THAT never happened in the books! Also Rand - completely untrained - can use a poweful s'angreal? WTF?????

More minor annoyances - can Egwene PLEASE magic that wart off her nose? I saw some other show where one of the characters was wearing the exact same sheepskin thing Rand wears. Apparently this is an off-the-rack thing, not a costume :rolleyes:

Great.  Can't wait to watch that... thing.  It's too bad really.  They have the makings of a decent show, but they are alienating most of the major book fans - and ANYONE who got through the entire Wheel of Time had to be a fan - it was too painful to get through the middle books unless you were a glutton for punishment.

Some people will like the series, but to turn it into a true event they were going to HAVE to stay at least a little bit true to the books.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

Great.  Can't wait to watch that... thing.  It's too bad really.  They have the makings of a decent show, but they are alienating most of the major book fans - and ANYONE who got through the entire Wheel of Time had to be a fan - it was too painful to get through the middle books unless you were a glutton for punishment.

Some people will like the series, but to turn it into a true event they were going to HAVE to stay at least a little bit true to the books.

There were a few books in the middle where you could just read the first and last chapters :rolleyes:, so I know a literal shot-for-shot recreation of the books would be a series that would be unwatchable. That said, they have messed up so many major plot points now I don't see how it can be salvaged.

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12 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I just watched episode 8, the last one of the season.

They have made such a hash of this it should be called "A show loosely inspired by the Wheel of Time - sort of".

The Dark One looks either like a waiter at some chi-chi Manhattan restaurant or maybe someone about to go clubbing.

Nynaeve and Egwene, totally untrained, link with the sister of the king of Fal Dara and use some mighty amount of the source to kill about 20,000 trollocs. The sister didn't make it through Aes Sedai training, her only skill seemed to be lighting lamps, and all of a sudden they can do linking and channel huge amounts of power? WTF?

Moraine gets stilled by the Dark One too! I am sure THAT never happened in the books! Also Rand - completely untrained - can use a poweful s'angreal? WTF?????

More minor annoyances - can Egwene PLEASE magic that wart off her nose? I saw some other show where one of the characters was wearing the exact same sheepskin thing Rand wears. Apparently this is an off-the-rack thing, not a costume :rolleyes:

The worst thing about the show isn't how badly they are mangling the books. . .   

It's the fact that we'll keep watching.  Uggggg.  

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11 minutes ago, LoopyGirdleSniffer said:

The worst thing about the show isn't how badly they are mangling the books. . .   

It's the fact that we'll keep watching.  Uggggg.  

Cante you juste saye "NO" an done withit?

 

Or alittelle moire dramactic witha "No moire jello foire me mom", ussiualley brignes smilles............             :)

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18 minutes ago, Point Break said:

Makes me glad I decided to abstain.

If it was NOT based on a book series, I would give it 3 Snags as a low-budget-less-tits version of Game of Thrones. As it is, maybe 2 Snags at best. This would be like if Ford vs. Ferrari was filmed with a Corvette racing a Lamborghini in Spain. Well sure it has an American car, an Italian car, and a track in Europe, so what's not to like? If you had no idea about the real story, you might even think it was good. Also Chevy invents some special fuel that never runs out and the Lamborghini has 5 wheels and a DVD player :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

Cante you juste saye "NO" an done withit?

 

Or alittelle moire dramactic witha "No moire jello foire me mom", ussiualley brignes smilles............             :)

Of course I can’t just say no.  I have to see just how bad it gets. Like Game of Thrones I followed the books for damn near 20 years.  That’s like a life investment.  Can’t just quit now

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I just put on the newest episode of The Expanse. It is orders of magnitude better in every way. It is more faithful to the books, the sets are better, the acting is better, the costumes are better, and the effects are better.

In The Expanse you can practically feel the grunge on an old Belter ship. The Woke Of Time just seems more and more like cosplay :(

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

I just put on the newest episode of The Expanse. It is orders of magnitude better in every way. It is more faithful to the books, the sets are better, the acting is better, the costumes are better, and the effects are better.

In The Expanse you can practically feel the grunge on an old Belter ship. The Woke Of Time just seems more and more like cosplay :(

I didn't even know the Expanse was a book series until right now, but I have nothing against the sets.  I even like/approve of the way they've depicted somethings.  The acting I'd have said was pretty decent, even good for some of them.  It's the butchering of the story line I'm mad at.  

Oh yea, and the correct word here is Larping.  Or something like that.  

 

 

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On 12/28/2021 at 7:37 PM, Wet Spreaders said:

They rushed through the material - especially the last episode. Don't know why they did that - it's almost like they wanted to film the Cliff Notes rather than the book.

They've got 14 books with about 4 million words and some 11,300 pages of source material.

It sounds like they've budgeted 8 episodes for 7 or 8 seasons. Call it 64 episodes, or 64 hours.

That works to about 175 pages per episode.

There is no way they can do anything but tell the Cliff Notes versions. Heck, for every second of sweeping countryside vistas or silent long views of Tar Valon, you lose pages of storytelling opportunity.

---

Stephen King's The Body, which most people know as the movie Stand By Me, is a long novella, about 168 pages. Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption is only 109 pages long.

Both had to cut some material and change some scenes and perspectives to fit the movie storytelling medium, but made excellent two hour movies nonetheless...

 

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I have been considering reading the works again. In full this time as previously I bailed out when in really seemed that Robert didn't know how to end it. I no longer own the volumes that I had in the past. Amazon has a kindle version as one volume. It is approximately 14000 pages long. If you think that a TV series is going to be even remotely accurate you need to give your head a check. Possibly go back and take a look at GoT - quite a few bits missing in the series from the books, possibly the ending will be completely different too. Or mayber LotR, that was okay but old Pete J certainly took some liberties and also left alot of book on the cutting room floor as well. Really I thinkl that any of these video escapades should all just say that they are loosely based on whatever novel.

 

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5 hours ago, hard aground said:

I have been considering reading the works again. In full this time as previously I bailed out when in really seemed that Robert didn't know how to end it. I no longer own the volumes that I had in the past. Amazon has a kindle version as one volume. It is approximately 14000 pages long. If you think that a TV series is going to be even remotely accurate you need to give your head a check. Possibly go back and take a look at GoT - quite a few bits missing in the series from the books, possibly the ending will be completely different too. Or mayber LotR, that was okay but old Pete J certainly took some liberties and also left alot of book on the cutting room floor as well. Really I thinkl that any of these video escapades should all just say that they are loosely based on whatever novel.

 

I have read the entire series twice now. I am fully aware that a shot-for-shot TV show would last about 30 years :rolleyes: THAT isn't my problem, it is that they have changed absolutely fundamental aspects of the story to the point it is unwatchable as Wheel Of Time for NO REASON. They aren't saving time, they are just butchering the story for no reason or "woke reasons" or trying to make it a teen thing like Twilight or who knows what.

Like I think I said before, this is like Ford Vs. Ferrari where they change the Ford GT40 to a Chevy Corvette, the Ferrari to a Lamborghini, move the race to Spain instead of France, have the pit crews having gay sex in the middle of the race, and then have the race get moved to a 4-wheel dirt track. Sure it is a movie about cars racing, but it nothing like Le Mans.

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