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Best setup for asym peels?


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I want to set my J/111 (so 36 feet LOA with an 8 foot bowsprite) up for asym peels. I have only been sailing this boat since July and it's my first asym boat, so I would appreciate some help deciding how to set this up and do it.

I think I need a second block on each quarter and a second set of sheets. The bowsprit end is set up with two low friction rings, and both sides of the cabin house have line guides and a clutch. I currently have one tackline on the starboard side. I think the fittings on the port side were for the headsail furler, but I'm getting rid of that.

We sail a mix of W/L and short harbor races and offshore, so doing a peel won't be a common event. Still, in my last race it would have been a big benefit to switch from an A3 to an A2 toward the end of the race, but we couldn't short of going bareheaded. 

Given a second tack line is extra weight and another string that won't be used too often, might it be better to go with a changing strope? If it's harder for the crew, probably not, but I would appreciate opinions on this. I could also just rig the second tackline when doing an offshore race.

Up top, the spinn halyards are above and below each other. That being the case, does it matter if the new spinn goes up inside or outside the old one?

Thanks!

 

 

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Honestly, the time lost by just hoisting the jib, rigging the new kite in the bag ready to go, dropping the old kite, hoisting the new one is not going to be significantly more than peeling, especially offshore imo. The potential for fuckups with peeling big A2's wouldn't be small either. 

The most we peel is from a Fr0 to an A2/A3, and even that can be tricky with running lines to make sure nothing goes bad...

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We find peels on our 32 footer very beneficial and usually gaining us a place or more. We practice though and anything more than 15 kts is about our threshold as things can go very wrong as the breeze builds. We also have twin under/over masthead halyards with a choker on one to run fractional if needed. If you strip and taper the tack lines, they weigh almost nothing so having two attached is really not an issue. Crossing halyards is not preferred so try and mange this by predicting what your sail order may be but you can get away with it on a very short leg.

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4 minutes ago, Irrational 14 said:

Crossing halyards is not preferred so try and mange this by predicting what your sail order may be but you can get away with it on a very short leg.

Oh, my halyards are above and below each other, I forgot to mention that in the original post.

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You're going to want a second tack line - a strop works if you can get to the end of the pole/sprit (or if it can be temporarily tacked to the bow and later transferred) which isn't really the case here. Not saying it can't be done but it wouldn't be ideal.

You're also going to want to hoist the new kite inside, on the lower of your halyards.

You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily. Fiddles work if it gives you peace of mind that nothing is going to get tangled.

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3 minutes ago, 3apc said:

You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily.

I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.

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6 minutes ago, ryley said:

I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.

Yeah I've never had a problem either - just saying you can put a fiddle block there if it makes you happy. And to be clear, you only need to double the leeward sheet, windward sheet can be lead once the dust settles.

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On my 120, we run with a single tackline.   We use a stropto the bow for the new tack and we run a Martin breaker on the main tackline so that when you blow the tackline 7’ it triggers the shackle open.    After the tackline blows, bowman attaches it to the new kite tack and then pit grinds it out to the end of the spirit.  New kite goes up on the inside (lower) halyard.  We drop the old kite down the companionway using the lazy sheet trying to pull it under the boom to help blanket it.  
 

we definitely need more practice, but with the A team on the boat this usually goes off well.  

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1 hour ago, 3apc said:

You're going to want a second tack line - a strop works if you can get to the end of the pole/sprit (or if it can be temporarily tacked to the bow and later transferred) which isn't really the case here. Not saying it can't be done but it wouldn't be ideal.

You're also going to want to hoist the new kite inside, on the lower of your halyards.

You generally don't need extra turning blocks aft, as long as the sheaves can fit two sheets through temporarily. Fiddles work if it gives you peace of mind that nothing is going to get tangled.

 

56 minutes ago, ryley said:

I find that when we're peeling kites we can do it with both sheets through the block. once everything is sorted we might remove the inactive sheet, but depends on how long we'll have things up.

Yes I'm thinking since the hardware is in place to go for the second tack line approach, if for no other reason then the bow team needs to learn one less thing this way. On the blocks, they are only as wide as one sheet, did you mean it's okay for the new active sheet to be on top of the old one, so there is a piece of line between the shive and new sheet? I can't see how that would work, but I'll run a few pieces of sheet in there and see what happens. 

On the tack line, how long should a tack line be? It seems to me it should be long enough to allow a letter box drop without having to disconnect it. 

On the second peel (if that happens) would we hoist it outside since it's now on the upper halyard?

Thanks guys!!!

 

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14 hours ago, George Dewey said:

I want to set my J/111 (so 36 feet LOA with an 8 foot bowsprite) up for asym peels. I have only been sailing this boat since July and it's my first asym boat, so I would appreciate some help deciding how to set this up and do it.

I think I need a second block on each quarter and a second set of sheets. The bowsprit end is set up with two low friction rings, and both sides of the cabin house have line guides and a clutch. I currently have one tackline on the starboard side. I think the fittings on the port side were for the headsail furler, but I'm getting rid of that.

We sail a mix of W/L and short harbor races and offshore, so doing a peel won't be a common event. Still, in my last race it would have been a big benefit to switch from an A3 to an A2 toward the end of the race, but we couldn't short of going bareheaded. 

Given a second tack line is extra weight and another string that won't be used too often, might it be better to go with a changing strope? If it's harder for the crew, probably not, but I would appreciate opinions on this. I could also just rig the second tackline when doing an offshore race.

Up top, the spinn halyards are above and below each other. That being the case, does it matter if the new spinn goes up inside or outside the old one?

Thanks!

 

 

I like second tack line.  Rig when you need if concerned about extra line.

Agree to balance risk offshore and not messing things up.  

Jibe peels are great on some point to points in right conditions.

I like to put kite going down on changing sheet if possible.

Practice with some old kites.

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1 minute ago, George Dewey said:

On the tack line, how long should a tack line be? It seems to me it should be long enough to allow a letter box drop without having to disconnect it. 

yes, try running the sheets through together. it generally works ok, and as pointed out it's not permanent, it'll be fine until you get things sorted.

As to the length of the 2nd tack line, don't worry about the letterbox - you need long sheets for that, you can just let the tack run. if you're letterboxing you're probably not worried about going back up with a kite anytime soon. I made my 2nd tack line as long as the other one, plus enough to run a 2:1 purchase from the end of the pole to the bow pulpit - I do this because *if* there is a chance I'll be running the code, I like to put the furler on the bow pulpit ahead of time so I only have to hook up the tack, hoist the code, then grind down the tack to the end of the pole. Doesn't happen very often but having the option of running the 2:1 is key. you can still put a kite on it if you end up not running the code.

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35 minutes ago, George Dewey said:

Yes I'm thinking since the hardware is in place to go for the second tack line approach, if for no other reason then the bow team needs to learn one less thing this way. On the blocks, they are only as wide as one sheet, did you mean it's okay for the new active sheet to be on top of the old one, so there is a piece of line between the shive and new sheet? I can't see how that would work, but I'll run a few pieces of sheet in there and see what happens. 

Yeah, generally you can run two lines through the same block briefly (only needs to be done on the leeward side), then pull out the old one as you douse the old kite. Windward sheet can wait until the old sheets are below deck.

 

35 minutes ago, George Dewey said:

On the second peel (if that happens) would we hoist it outside since it's now on the upper halyard?

If you can hoist outside, yeah, but outside hoists are usually pretty messy and it may be faster to just set everything up and barehead it. If you peel (first peel) then gybe, the second peel can usually be done as an inside hoist on the upper halyard. You can always hoist inside on a [clear] lower halyard, but an upper halyard needs to be to windward of the kite if you want to hoist inside on it, else you end up wrapping the lower around the upper on the douse. That would lock you out of any more peels.

Remembering exactly where your halyards are, and where they were the last time you peeled, is an important skill at 3am a few days into a race.

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1 hour ago, T sailor said:

On my 120, we run with a single tackline.   We use a strop to the bow for the new tack and we run a Martin breaker on the main tackline so that when you blow the tackline 7’ it triggers the shackle open.    After the tackline blows, bowman attaches it to the new kite tack and then pit grinds it out to the end of the spirit.  New kite goes up on the inside (lower) halyard.  We drop the old kite down the companionway using the lazy sheet trying to pull it under the boom to help blanket it.  
 

We definitely need more practice, but with the A team on the boat this usually goes off well.  

This is the sanest method in the list with a full crew.

Whether you get to hoist inside or outside depends on the halyard and you said yours a above/below, not side to side.  This gives more options as you cannot set up the kite and have already locked a halyard out but the bowman should always set on the upper halyard so that the new kite can be hoisted inside with no issues.  As listed by others, outside hoists look cool but the biggest problem is the friction of the old kite coming down inside of the old kite and the new kite will be wonky until the old kite is mostly down.

If you find yourself with the kite on the lower halyard I would do an outside hoist, which usually I am against, but your halyard configuration demands this.  The problems with doing an inside hoist on the upper halyard are several.  On a light air day doing an inside hoist with the upper halyard is going to disturb both sails so much during the hoist and take down it will risk a wrap on the headstay.  On a heavy air day the friction of the halyard basically having a 1/2 wrap on the lower halyard just isn't advisable.  On a medium air day you can probably get away with it.

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So we were out practicing for the 2018 RBBS. Often on the Sunday bay tour race you need to go from a a3 to an a2 in the gybe. It’s a typical San Francisco Bay summer afternoon, small edd tide, breeze 18 to 20 tws. 
 

 So we set the boat up for a gybe peel with a Mexican drop of the a3 after the gybe.  New tack line out clew halfway back the weather side of the boat, 3,2,1 … swing boat down. Mast man rings the bell on the host new kites drawing before the main comes over. Main comes across, and for a second everything going to work.  Driver stops the swing up and it all goes pear shaped. 
 

So we have both the a2 up on the correct side of the boat, but now we also have the a3 up on the other side. Wing on wing if you will, the bow team is try like hell to get the clew down but with the boat fully loaded up there is nothing we can do. 
 

after a few seconds wing on wing rocking and rolling all over the place by the grace of god we round up the right way. Old kite into the rig proper wipe out, it takes forever to get the boat up and the old kite down.   The crowds at pier 39 got a show that day. 
 

Next weekend in race 7 we executed a perfect gybe peel. Make sure to practice. 
 

 

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One more thing - another rule we follow is that we NEVER tie a stop knot at the end of any of our tack lines.

They need to run free and fast whenever required. I don't care how long they are. If you shrimp with a knot in the tack line, better have a knife ready.

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2 minutes ago, IMR said:

So we were out practicing for the 2018 RBBS. Often on the Sunday bay tour race you need to go from a a3 to an a2 in the gybe. It’s a typical San Francisco Bay summer afternoon, small edd tide, breeze 18 to 20 tws. 
 

 So we set the boat up for a gybe peel with a Mexican drop of the a3 after the gybe.  New tack line out clew halfway back the weather side of the boat, 3,2,1 … swing boat down. Mast man rings the bell on the host new kites drawing before the main comes over. Main comes across, and for a second everything going to work.  Driver stops the swing up and it all goes pear shaped. 
 

So we have both the a2 up on the correct side of the boat, but now we also have the a3 up on the other side. Wing on wing if you will, the bow team is try like hell to get the clew down but with the boat fully loaded up there is nothing we can do. 
 

after a few seconds wing on wing rocking and rolling all over the place by the grace of god we round up the right way. Old kite into the rig proper wipe out, it takes forever to get the boat up and the old kite down.   The crowds at pier 39 got a show that day. 
 

Next weekend in race 7 we executed a perfect gybe peel. Make sure to practice.

Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...

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14 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...

Just another day at the office, but they might owe me a new hat.

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26 minutes ago, Foredeck Shuffle said:

Why do you hate the bow?  You do realize just how endangered they have become and you go around doing things that has bow bodies splashing into the water and bobbing in the boat's stern wave like rubber ducks released from a lost container.

Just so you know, the front of the boat is thinking "God damn cowboys are going to hump everything and then each other in the middle of this and leave us to clean up the mess."

The humanity of it...

I don’t hate the bow team, they get excited when we execute a good move. Now they were not excited by the outcome of that shit show. For the record the bow team all stayed on the boat. We did have some one in the middle of the boat outside the fence in the wipe out. He went over the top Lifelines, I saw him going over and dropped everything to grab him and pull him back into the cockpit. He did loose a hat some maybe we could get a go fund me page set up for a new hat. 

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1 minute ago, IMR said:

I don’t hate the bow team, they get excited when we execute a good move. Now they were not excited by the outcome of that shit show. For the record the bow team all stayed on the boat. We did have some one in the middle of the boat outside the fence in the wipe out. He went over the top Lifelines, I saw him going over and dropped everything to grab him and pull him back into the cockpit. He did loose a hat some maybe we could get a go fund me page set up for a new hat. 

Typical, all the concern for the back of the boat...

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Thanks very much everyone. Our lead bow guy and I are digesting all this.

It sounds like the basic rule is always hoist the first kite on the upper halyard. For the peel, hoist on the lower halyard inside the existing chute and drop the old one behind and below the new one. If we need to peel again, gybe first. This way the free halyard in on the windward side (inside) of the existing chute. I suppose we could walk the halyard around the headstay but in the dark or big seas that's less than ideal.  

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4 minutes ago, Trevor B said:

Bare headed.
Practice it and you should be under 40 seconds from full speed to full speed. 
Obviously using a second set of sheets and a MartinBreaker. 

I guess we can do this too, if the new one is ready to go I can see this being quick. 

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53 minutes ago, George Dewey said:

Thanks very much everyone. Our lead bow guy and I are digesting all this.

It sounds like the basic rule is always hoist the first kite on the upper halyard. For the peel, hoist on the lower halyard inside the existing chute and drop the old one behind and below the new one. If we need to peel again, gybe first. This way the free halyard in on the windward side (inside) of the existing chute. I suppose we could walk the halyard around the headstay but in the dark or big seas that's less than ideal.  

In the example you give (inside peel on lower halyard, gybe, inside peel again on upper halyard) you need to take the upper halyard around the headstay after the gybe and before the second peel. Hoisting to windward of the headstay is no bueno.

 

If what you were getting at is instead how you could avoid the necessity of a gybe to clear the halyard for a second peel, getting around the headstay won't do it and will actually make everything way worse. What you'd need to do is get the halyard all the way around the outside of the kite - which can be (kinda) accomplished on a symmetric boat but not really possible on a sprit boat. So your options to clear the halyard are (i) to gybe or (ii) to barehead.

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1 hour ago, 3apc said:

In the example you give (inside peel on lower halyard, gybe, inside peel again on upper halyard) you need to take the upper halyard around the headstay after the gybe and before the second peel. Hoisting to windward of the headstay is no bueno.

 

If what you were getting at is instead how you could avoid the necessity of a gybe to clear the halyard for a second peel, getting around the headstay won't do it and will actually make everything way worse. What you'd need to do is get the halyard all the way around the outside of the kite - which can be (kinda) accomplished on a symmetric boat but not really possible on a sprit boat. So your options to clear the halyard are (i) to gybe or (ii) to barehead.

This!!!!   The second peel can really cluster things up.  As noted, to clear the halyard, it needs to go around the kite, not just around the forestay.  We’ve botched that one at 3 am as the breeze was building and we hoisted a kite on the locked out halyard….    

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Just go out and sail the thing....if you are scared, get a snatch block a strop and a doubled up tylaska.....I prescribe two pitchers of Margaritas and a 12 pack of beers prior to practice. You'll get it right. 

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HI've over 10 years of ownership of a Max Fun 35 in Europe.   Raced very successfully at club level and reasonably at national.  Our boat is fairly similar in performance to a  J111 and not dissimilar in rig, although our kite halyards are set up so that one is masthead and the other fractional.   We have 3 kites, two 130 square  metres and one around 90.   The big ones go up one the masthead halyard.  One of  the big ones is  almost a code  zero.  A witch on a close reach but also great in light airs.   The other is a downwind cut.  We race pretty much every week locally and vivid permitting at least 10 days a year at national level. 

On national or local races I cannot think of a time where we wanted to peal the spinnaker.   Yes we may change between legs but during- keeping the weight in the right place  and not  screwing up and evolution is much more important. On long distance races time lost by doing a traditional sail change far outweighs the risk of time lost from a peak.

You will get a far bigger boost from getting someone  brought up on a sail boats on board who challenges your symetric thinking than try and do what you did in the past

 

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