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Damn. I had just put effort into some responses and it’s been vaporized like a bicep.

Suffice to say, Vaccine good, COVID infection bad. 

Conservatives are respectable and worthy political participants, Trumplicans are annoyingly loud and empty-headed.

 

Did BB or anyone else get flicked? Was this a disinformation purge?

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Much of the problem with RWNJ is the sustained effort to delegitimize the US Government as a source of reliable information. It has borne fruit with "Stop the Steal" fundraising and vaccine disinforma

Relying on an honour system with Trump is delusional.

I travelled around the world as a software engineer in the 80's, and many places on my own since.  Ottawa was the only place in the world where I was asked by the bellhop if I was interested in having

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3 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Damn. I had just put some effort into some responses and it’s been vaporized like a bicep.

Suffice to say, Vaccine good, COVID infection bad. 

Conservatives are respectable and worthy political participants, Trumplicans are annoyingly loud and empty-headed.

 

Did BB or anyone else get flicked? Was this a disinformation purge?

BB got flicked looks like.

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4 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Maybe the lynching thread - that is gone too. 

Thanks mods !!  

Don't know anything about the "lynching thread", bur I do second the "Thanks mods!!".

SA has a reputation (at least to those who stumble over this site and the forums) and so has PA. But there is a difference between Anarchy and raving evil Bullshit, which is posted because the bullshitters think they just can.

But nope, even this cesspool has janitors.

 

Suck it up, bullshitters, and stay on FaceFuck and the like.

 

Besides, most of the BS is just dumb, dull, repetitive and boring. It turns active posters away, because why would they bother to engage the bullshitters over and over and over again? Bullshit is bad for business, right?

 

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7 minutes ago, Grog said:

Don't know anything about the "lynching thread"

Yeah, it was a short-lived thing . .  BB thought it was a good idea to bring it back. 

He doesn't know the history of it, or knows but approves. 

Sailor Robert Smalls' story is very instructive - I did not know the magnitude of the terror myself until fairly recently. 

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/terrorized-african-americans-champion-civil-war-hero-robert-smalls-180970031/

Apparently a film is in the works - 

https://explorebeaufortsc.com/hollywood-movie-finally-being-made-about-robert-smalls/

 

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1 minute ago, Nice! said:

I would guess

Hope those floods go away and leave ya alone for a while !! 

Damage looks unbelievable. 

I learned about Hope, BC from watching Highway Through Hell 

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41 minutes ago, chum said:

Well we can just continue the thread without him, there was some good  information.
O  pointed out that the CDC does indeed include natural immunity in their studies, as of August. I remarked that the findings conflicted with the much larger Israeli study.

I wonder what the disparity is?

The conclusion of the Israeli study is that the best possible protection is afforded by either a) getting the vaccine or b) recovering from covid and getting the vaccine.  It also says that recovering from the covid is better than the vaccine by itself.  That may be because the only variant that has survived in Israel given the high rate of vaccination is Delta, which causes a lot more breakthrough infections than the original virus.  Either way, getting the vaccine is indicated, so it is rather a moot point.  Nobody is going to go out and deliberately try to get infected.

Let move this discussion to the Covid threads, where it belongs.  Covid shouldn't be political anyway, though it has become so in the US.  It is not political in other countries, such as Canada. 

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2 minutes ago, chum said:

That wouldn't be an ethical way to conduct the study, I don't think anyone is that dumb either.

There you go underestimating your Trumpaloon friends.  Many have said they intentionally tried to and/or did get Covid to own the libs.  One that comes to mind in Dennis Prager.

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2 minutes ago, benwynn said:

Seriously?  You should have just given up the World Class Beaches and went to school in another state.

The only other state with world class beaches is Hawaii.  I know an eye doctor who went to UH strictly for the surfing and windsurfing but it was just to far from home for me. Plus UH’s academics and football program are, um not great.

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1 hour ago, chum said:

Well we can just continue the thread without him, there was some good  information.
O  pointed out that the CDC does indeed include natural immunity in their studies, as of August. I remarked that the findings conflicted with the much larger Israeli study.

I wonder what the disparity is?

But you're not willing to make a fairly simple effort to find out.

- DSK

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I would assume that if you have had COVID, then you have an immune system which could recognize a whole host of antigens beyond just the spike protein or whatnot specifically simulated by the vaccines.

That way your immune system would be primed to recognize more potential variants of the original strain.

But again, there is no way to boost that immunity without reexposure to said antigens, ie another infection.

A big advantage of the vaccine, besides immunity without infection, is boosting immunity with another shot.

I got mine two weeks ago and felt nada, just the usual sore injection site.

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

 Covid shouldn't be political anyway, though it has become so in the US.  It is not political in other countries, such as Canada. 

Don't kid yourself - it's political here - just far less so than in the States.

We have our full and fair share of right wing morons.

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Damn. I had just put effort into some responses and it’s been vaporized like a bicep.

Suffice to say, Vaccine good, COVID infection bad. 

Conservatives are respectable and worthy political participants, Trumplicans are annoyingly loud and empty-headed.

 

Did BB or anyone else get flicked? Was this a disinformation purge?

I am in favor of freedom of speech, after all I have the right to not listen.

OTOH rights come with responsibilities. The classic tag line about free speech is that it does not cover yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater. Deliberately spreading covid misinformation is worse than that.

Trumpublicans are empty-headed but that's not a reason to flick them. They are deliberately destructive, and will work at destroying public good will, mutual trust, and any respect for boundaries of speech or behavior. At some point, it is justified and even necessary to flick them.

- DSK

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BC vaccination rate: 87.4% for age >= 12 (we just approved kids 5-11 on Monday)

USA vaccination rate 69% for age >= 12.

That's a pretty big difference. Our covid new daily cases are shrinking steadily (~6/100,00)

USA = about 94,000 cases/day or ~28/100,000 and increasing steadily. It's going to be a long winter in some parts of the US.

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18 minutes ago, Zonker said:

BC vaccination rate: 87.4% for age >= 12 (we just approved kids 5-11 on Monday)

USA vaccination rate 69% for age >= 12.

That's a pretty big difference. Our covid new daily cases are shrinking steadily (~6/100,00)

USA = about 94,000 cases/day or ~28/100,000 and increasing steadily. It's going to be a long winter in some parts of the US.

Only if you’re unvaxed.  Good article in the Atlantic today about the COVID pandemic ending with a whimper.  It’s not over yet but it’s waning quickly.  My parents are boosted and don’t worry about COVID.  I visited my best friends mom the other day.  She’s 93 and frail but sharp as a tack.  Similarly boosted and doesn’t worry about COVID (as she said dryly - “I’ve lived a long time and seen worse”).

We are well into the COVID is endemic stage. Unfortunately, not all people are in the same stage of acceptance and everyone has different comfort levels wrt risk taking.  Some may want to continue masking and social distancing and we should understand and support these people even as we live our lives with less appetite for caution.

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2 hours ago, chum said:

cite?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/10/19/dennis-prager-covid/

“I have engaged with strangers, constantly hugging them, taking photos with them knowing that I was making myself very susceptible to getting covid,” he said. “Which is — indeed, as bizarre as it sounded — what I wanted, in the hope I would achieve natural immunity and be taken care of by therapeutics.”

The 'to own the libs' part is an addition. 

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

I would assume that if you have had COVID, then you have an immune system which could recognize a whole host of antigens beyond just the spike protein or whatnot specifically simulated by the vaccines.

That way your immune system would be primed to recognize more potential variants of the original strain.

But again, there is no way to boost that immunity without reexposure to said antigens, ie another infection.

A big advantage of the vaccine, besides immunity without infection, is boosting immunity with another shot.

I got mine two weeks ago and felt nada, just the usual sore injection site.

I quoted it in the other thread but that's the conclusion of the Israeli study.  Natural Immunity seemed to be better than vaccine alone in general but Natural Immunity + booster was best, particularly in the case of Delta.  The first round of COVID was pretty mild in many people - their immune system didn't have to work very hard - and so their protection against Delta wasn't that spiffy.

 

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I have a friend in NY (early 40's, healthy, not fat) who just got it. She is fully vaccinated and felt really shitty for 3 weeks+. She said "its the worst I've ever felt". Doesn't sound like fun.

If rates are rising in the US for the past 3 weeks, how is it "over"?

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8 minutes ago, Zonker said:

I have a friend in NY (early 40's, healthy, not fat) who just got it. She is fully vaccinated and felt really shitty for 3 weeks+. She said "its the worst I've ever felt". Doesn't sound like fun.

If rates are rising in the US for the past 3 weeks, how is it "over"?

This isn’t rocket science.  It’s not over for the unvaxed.  For the vaxed it’s like living with influenza 

 

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Folks who are vaccinated who are still using masks and doing social isolation to the degree they feel consonant with their perception of risk are simply doing their best to soldier on while protecting themselves and their community.

Sounds like good civic behavior and a justifiable approach to modern life during a pandemic. 

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3 hours ago, benwynn said:
3 hours ago, Fakenews said:

?
I just cited Dennis Prager.

Seriously?  You should have just given up the World Class Beaches and went to school in another state.

ZING!  :lol:

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1 minute ago, BeSafe said:

I quoted it in the other thread but that's the conclusion of the Israeli study.  Natural Immunity seemed to be better than vaccine alone but Natural + booster is best, particularly in the case of Delta.  The first round of COVID was pretty mild in many people - their immune system didn't have to work very hard - and so their protection against Delta wasn't that spiffy.

 

I disagree strongly that acquired/natural immunity is measurably better than vaccination-acquired immunity to covid. the claims that it is 13X better is impossible to sustain with any kind of publicly available statistics.

Easy way to test this: go to your favorite source of covid statistics, look for how many people get covid twice. Then compare this to the percentage of vaccinated people get breakthrough infections.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33718968/   looks at reinfection rates and rate of serious illness in reinfection, concludes that acquired/natural immunity is 82% effective... ie not as good as vaccine.

This study is Kaiser-Permannente, in Cali https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8373524/     looks at reinfection and serious illness (hospitalization), and reinfection rate around 1% and hospitalization rate around 0.1%

These numbers alone suggest strongly that if acquired/natural immunity is better, it's not A LOT!! better, as in 10X and certainly not 27X as a RWNJ neighbor claimed last week. Why do Trumpalos hate-hate-hate the vaccine so much?

Anyway, here's a fairly readable source https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/08/breakthrough-infections    that says the rate of breakthrough infections... people sick enough to seek treatment, as a percentage of the number of the vaccinated, is 0.02% (in other words, vaccines are the ones that are ~ 10X better)

I would encourage anyone to look at multiple credible sources of medical info, not cherry-pick or surf Parler

And this is a "freedom of speech" issue in regard to the responsibility that accompanies any right.

- DSK

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If it wasn't for the fact that the willfully ignorant are still killing responsible people, I would say go for it dumbfucks. Maybe the unvaccinated should be required to only socialize with like minded people. We could build camps with fences to keep the vaccinated people away from them. I would be happy if my tax money went to something like that. They can have all the guns, ammo, bleach and veterinary medications they want. Freedumb.

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4 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The conclusion of the Israeli study is that the best possible protection is afforded by either a) getting the vaccine or b) recovering from covid and getting the vaccine.  It also says that recovering from the covid is better than the vaccine by itself.  That may be because the only variant that has survived in Israel given the high rate of vaccination is Delta, which causes a lot more breakthrough infections than the original virus.  Either way, getting the vaccine is indicated, so it is rather a moot point.  Nobody is going to go out and deliberately try to get infected.

Let move this discussion to the Covid threads, where it belongs.  Covid shouldn't be political anyway, though it has become so in the US.  It is not political in other countries, such as Canada. 

Actually, it's just bullshitters bullshitting.  If you look, the numbers of actual breakthroughs they have are so low that doing statistics on the numbers isn't really... Kosher. 

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50 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Shame BB got tossed. Not because I like or appreciated his offerings, I wished he would stick to facts.....but because everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Exactly.  He was entitled to his opinion, he expressed it, and he got flicked.  And, wherever he is, he is still entitled to his opinion

At the Thanksgiving dinner table, he is entitled to the opinion that one of the guest's wife looks like a whore.  If he expresses it, he is also entitled to emergency room care.

We are all entitled to our opinion. Whatever the consequences.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

BC vaccination rate: 87.4% for age >= 12 (we just approved kids 5-11 on Monday)

USA vaccination rate 69% for age >= 12.

That's a pretty big difference. Our covid new daily cases are shrinking steadily (~6/100,00)

USA = about 94,000 cases/day or ~28/100,000 and increasing steadily. It's going to be a long winter in some parts of the US.

Or very short, depending on how stupid and fanatical you are.

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1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

Folks who are vaccinated who are still using masks and doing social isolation to the degree they feel consonant with their perception of risk are simply doing their best to soldier on while protecting themselves and their community.

Sounds like good civic behavior and a justifiable approach to modern life during a pandemic. 

Sounds like a buncha fearful libs giving up their freedumb.

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39 minutes ago, Voyageur said:

If it wasn't for the fact that the willfully ignorant are still killing responsible people, I would say go for it dumbfucks. Maybe the unvaccinated should be required to only socialize with like minded people. We could build camps with fences to keep the vaccinated people away from them. I would be happy if my tax money went to something like that. They can have all the guns, ammo, bleach and veterinary medications they want. Freedumb.

Might I suggest Floriduh?

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I disagree strongly that acquired/natural immunity is measurably better than vaccination-acquired immunity to covid. the claims that it is 13X better is impossible to sustain with any kind of publicly available statistics.

Easy way to test this: go to your favorite source of covid statistics, look for how many people get covid twice. Then compare this to the percentage of vaccinated people get breakthrough infections.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33718968/   looks at reinfection rates and rate of serious illness in reinfection, concludes that acquired/natural immunity is 82% effective... ie not as good as vaccine.

This study is Kaiser-Permannente, in Cali https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8373524/     looks at reinfection and serious illness (hospitalization), and reinfection rate around 1% and hospitalization rate around 0.1%

These numbers alone suggest strongly that if acquired/natural immunity is better, it's not A LOT!! better, as in 10X and certainly not 27X as a RWNJ neighbor claimed last week. Why do Trumpalos hate-hate-hate the vaccine so much?

Anyway, here's a fairly readable source https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2021/08/breakthrough-infections    that says the rate of breakthrough infections... people sick enough to seek treatment, as a percentage of the number of the vaccinated, is 0.02% (in other words, vaccines are the ones that are ~ 10X better)

I would encourage anyone to look at multiple credible sources of medical info, not cherry-pick or surf Parler

And this is a "freedom of speech" issue in regard to the responsibility that accompanies any right.

- DSK

It does get messy.  I would ask though -  What's the method of action?  Why would a vaccine that replicates only a small fraction of the virus toolkit be demonstrably better at protecting an individual than having a patient's immune system actually fight off the whole collection of tricks in the Virus playbook?

These sorts of cohort studies are always confounding.  My guess is that the truth lies in the same truth as to why there's variation between Moderna and Pfeizer in the first place.  They use the same mRNA, but Moderna is 3x as much mRNA dosage than Pfeizer and creates a stronger response - both in good and bad effects.  But overall, they're pretty similar.  Getting COVID itself has a similar range of response, depending on how quick an individuals immune system responds and what was the initial viral load.

The only reason I can imagine that the vaccine creates a stronger response overall is because the load of mRNA is actually much higher than what an average person would experience through the natural progression of the virus.  That actually feeds the narrative that the vaccine is 'more dangerous', FWIW because it IS a heavier load that what you'd nominally have to go through.  But, it's non-replicating.  So there's that.

I don't think there's ever going to be a clean answer and do appreciate the links. 

As I said in the deleted thread, everyone on earth is going to have to run the COVID gauntlet.  I'd rather do it on my terms.

Intellectually, I'm against compelled vaccines for 'the public good' simply because I don't trust governments to not abuse that power over time.  I would rather rely on convincing people, than coercing.  I don't trust Joe Biden to responsibly use that authority any more than I trusted Donald Trump when he used that authority.  I think they've both made dumb decisions in the name of the 'public good' where public good = THEIR likelihood of re-election.

But honestly, I don't care that much in this particular case and people are so wrapped up in their own politics, convincing is kind of a fool's errand.  That ship has sailed, unfortunately.  The vaccine is remarkable.  The worst impacts of the disease are dramatically reduced through even one shot.  This is a 'duh' vaccine, up there with MMR, polio, etc.  I feel bad for anyone that has an adverse reaction but compared to the disease itself, the side effects are minimal.  I truly believe that if you have a bad time with the side effects from the vaccine, COVID itself would probably kill you outright.

There IS a issue with the Lipid anchors for the mRNA shots.  That's real and deserves consideration.  I'm actually looking forward to the non-injectable vaccines.  I think that's better for the world as a whole.  I hope they work.

 

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So, I'll ask again because no one answered the first time.......  If the vaccine is too scary to get because of:

  • A:  It's long term safety is unproven
  • B:  It's a gov't conspiracy to control you
  • C:  I don't need no shot, it's just the flu
  • D:  Muh Rats

How come then do these very same people take ivermectin, inject bleach, and use intense UV light on their anus??  BB said he was prepared for COVID with "40 tabs" of Ivermectin in case he got sick.I about shit myself laughing.  

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

Shame BB got tossed. Not because I like or appreciated his offerings, I wished he would stick to facts.....but because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Disturbing trend back here in PA, trying to silence those who the in crowd disagrees with. Which one of you snow flakes made a stink? Come on, own it.

Here in the bedroom communities of NYC, almost no one is wearing masks. It is very, very rare with the exception of the post office........
Spouse just got her third jab..... partly because of her work, and partly because she is jetting off to the UK to see her parents.
Will get a first hand report on England in 10 days time or so. Will report back then so you weenies can whine on.

You’re making a couple of assumptions. First off, I don’t think it’s clear anyone complained about Bozo. The mods read these threads, and one that screams “COVID misinformation” is certainly going to attract attention.

And we also don’t know that it was this thread that caused the mods to revoke his privileges. Apparently there was another thread involving lynching? 

Baby sounds like he was testing the limits of the thread police, and found out they are not willing to be pushed around.

Society comes with both rights and responsibilities for individuals: seems many Jan 6ers and social media hotheads are surprised they must respect important boundaries.

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6 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

You’re making a couple of assumptions. First off, I don’t think it’s clear anyone complained about Bozo. The mods read these threads, and one that screams “COVID misinformation” is certainly going to attract attention.

And we also don’t know that it was this thread that caused the mods to revoke his privileges. Apparently there was another thread involving lynching? 

Baby sounds like he was testing the limits of the thread police, and found out they are not willing to be pushed around.

Society comes with both rights and responsibilities for individuals: seems many Jan 6ers and social media hotheads are surprised they must respect important boundaries.

I would bet money he was flicked because of the lynching thread. It was so far beyond acceptable that he *should* have been flicked because of it. And it was in the thread title, so any mod doing a quick scan would have caught it right away.

Personally if I was a mod and saw that I would ban him for life.

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5 minutes ago, Nice! said:

I would bet money he was flicked because of the lynching thread. It was so far beyond acceptable that he *should* have been flicked because of it. And it was in the thread title, so any mod doing a quick scan would have caught it right away.

Personally if I was a mod and saw that I would ban him for life.

I missed his lunching thread.

Synopsis?

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14 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

So, I'll ask again because no one answered the first time.......  If the vaccine is too scary to get because of:

  • A:  It's long term safety is unproven
  • B:  It's a gov't conspiracy to control you
  • C:  I don't need no shot, it's just the flu
  • D:  Muh Rats

How come then do these very same people take ivermectin, inject bleach, and use intense UV light on their anus??  BB said he was prepared for COVID with "40 tabs" of Ivermectin in case he got sick.I about shit myself laughing.  

I think it's just a control thing.  Honestly, I think its the same logic that convinces some people to conceal-carry.  Statistics and facts don't really matter.  Its about emotional coping mechanism to deal with an  amorphous and unresolvable fear.

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34 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

I missed his lunching thread.

Synopsis?

Yah what BS said. The title was something about how a lynching would have been appropriate. The post itself  had a photo of the suspect of a recent high profile vehicular crime.

It was pretty disgusting.

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1 minute ago, Nice! said:

Yah what BS said. The title was something about how a lynching would have been appropriate. The post itself  had a photo of the suspect of a recent high profile vehicular crime.

It was pretty disgusting.

BB in general has been pretty disgusting since his "return". He is probably happier on Parler.

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3 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

He’s still here, he’s got a nursery of socks.  I see for instance sea slug is posting again.

I have trouble seeing him as sea slug, he doesn't have the vocabulary. I thought Vermin was more likely.

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7 hours ago, Fakenews said:

The only other state with world class beaches is Hawaii.  I know an eye doctor who went to UH strictly for the surfing and windsurfing but it was just to far from home for me. Plus UH’s academics and football program are, um not great.

dude!!! Seriously?? This country is blessed with a fantastic beaches all over the place. 
 

The beaches on the Great Lakes don’t even have nasty assed salt water!!

Or dangerous creatures 

 

obviously, you have not visited California 

or Cape Cod 

shit dude… the list is endless. 

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

dude!!! Seriously?? This country is blessed with a fantastic beaches all over the place. 
 

The beaches on the Great Lakes don’t even have nasty assed salt water!!

Or dangerous creatures 

 

obviously, you have not visited California 

or Cape Cod 

shit dude… the list is endless. 

A critical component in the evaluation of world class beaches is the water temperature.  80 degrees or more for most of the year being the cutoff.

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1 minute ago, Fakenews said:

A critical component in the evaluation of world class beaches is the water temperature.  80 degrees or more for most of the year being the cutoff.

One man’s opinion and one with which I differ.

Warmer water carries all sorts of nasty stuff that causes sickness snd even death. 
I will grant, swimming on a California beach is not my idea of comfortable. 
However, the Mike’s of beaches at Presque Isle on Lake Erie are filled with thousands of people every summer because the swimming is fantastic and there are no man-o-war or other creatures who destroy bear feet. 
 

But… they didn’t film this in FLA

 

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I have trouble seeing him as sea slug, he doesn't have the vocabulary. I thought Vermin was more likely.

Can't be Sea Slug - he doesn't LOL.

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2 hours ago, Fakenews said:

A critical component in the evaluation of world class beaches is the water temperature.  80 degrees or more for most of the year being the cutoff.

That's bath water

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10 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
2 hours ago, Fakenews said:

A critical component in the evaluation of world class beaches is the water temperature.  80 degrees or more for most of the year being the cutoff.

That's bath water

And dugongs shit in it.

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12 hours ago, phillysailor said:

Suffice to say, Vaccine good, COVID infection bad. 

You forgot, we love Big Pharma. $-)) 

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30 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

Fake news..... the implication that NI is not at least on a par with vaccine.
That is a completely separate issue from the vax, no vax argument. Don't conflate the two. If there are people who already had Covid, verifiably, the argument is do those with naturally achieved antibodies really need to get the vaccine? Belts and suspenders crowed says they should also get the vax. Knowing what I know now after having mild covid and then getting two jabs, I am certain that I would have not gotten the second jab and would have given serious consideration to having the vax at all.

You apparently believe in some chapters of my immunology texts, but not others of them.

I didn’t realize science is an á la carte menu, and we could just choose those parts of the topic we find pleasing or intellectually satisfying to “believe in”.

Waning immunity is part of the science, and has been demonstrated by observational studies of COVID. You can’t “like” natural immunity without also respecting the power of a complete vaccine schedule to protect you and society from viral infection and transmission far longer into the future.

In other words, you’re entitled to have an opinion, but your immune system could care less. A complete vaccine schedule provides longer-lasting immunity than any single exposure to the virus.

A second exposure to the virus is far more dangerous than a second or third dose of the vaccine. 

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2 minutes ago, chum said:

Why is this?

Because if your natural immunity has waned, or you get a “breakthrough infection” (I dislike the term), you have to be infected with COVID In order to “boost” your immunity.

The risks of COVID infection are orders of magnitude greater than those of a booster shot.

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5 minutes ago, chum said:

Even if I’m in the 99.+% for whom it has little effect?

Ummm, yeah. You too.

Not only is the <1% you blithely ignore “orders of magnitude” greater than the risk of the jab, you’ve dismissed the threat your waning immunity poses to society.

You represent a vector for a deadly pathogen to infect your family, friends, coworkers, healthcare workers, “essential” workers.

Not giving a shit about them is called selfishness, lack of patriotism, or just being an asshole.

 

Sorry, but I eventually get pissed off.

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9 minutes ago, chum said:

It’s ok, thanks or the reply. If the vaccine works, and at risk people and anyone else who feels they need it are vaxxed, why does it matter? 

While I don’t give a shit about 1000 dumbfucks dying a week from COVID it does impact the economy and tangentially  my 401k.  Also somehow the # of dumbshits dying impacts my ability to go maskless at the airport.  These are but two reasons.

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5 minutes ago, chum said:

It’s ok, thanks or the reply. If the vaccines work, and at risk people and anyone else who feels they need it are vaxxed, why does it matter? 

Why do you ask dumb questions that have very readily available responses from very smart people?

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13 minutes ago, chum said:

It’s ok, thanks or the reply. If the vaccines work, and at risk people and anyone else who feels they need it are vaxxed, why does it matter? 

Because, well, epidemiology.

First, those "who feel they need it" are society, and our nation. And, by extension, the world.

Eradication of polio made us safe from it. That's going to be harder to achieve with this pathogen, but the safest plan for America is the largest possible vaccination program the world has ever seen. That way, reinfection with more deadly strains is made less likely.

In our own society, our rebounding economy is thanks to the vaccines. Our financial health is still in peril, however, and returning to lockdowns, overburdening our healthcare systems and losing a percentage of the workforce on a random basis to COVID infections can be greatly diminished or avoided.

And not all those "at risk" can receive vaccines. It is selfish for you not to provide for them. Society is held together by a sense of common purpose or at least adherence to basic tenets. You can argue against school kids having to have their shots before attending schools, but by doing so you are promoting disease within the community, and condemning some to die. That's a shit argument and I dare you to defend it.

Please defend your casual disregard for those jeopardized by the unvaccinated. Explain why you ignore the threat the unvaccinated pose to society and our economy.

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20 minutes ago, chum said:

Thanks for the reasoned reply.

How does the fact that the vaccines leak factor in. Vaccinated people like FN are passing it along also, correct? 

I appears to be endemic now, we aren’t going to eradicate it, correct? How does hat factor in?

Yeah, I don't like the term "breakthrough infection" because it ignores a basic fact of immunity.

In order for cellular immunity to work, your immune system has to have white blood cells scavenging up cellular debris and viral particles in the blood stream and lymph nodes, presenting them to T Cells which then release the IgG which are specific to the viral particles.

That means the immune system is responding to an "infection", because the virus is already inside the body.

Our immune system only reacts against foreign antigens when they get inside. A vaccine works by increasing the rapidity with which the immune system kicks out the IgG against the antigen it has "seen" before. The system works best when given several good, solid "looks" at the antigen.. hence the vaccine schedule.

An unvaccinated, or person without natural immunity won't have a rapid release of IgG specific to the virus. They will instead release IgM, a broad-spectrum antigen with moderate efficacy against the virus. Eventually, some IgG gets produced, but its a far slower process.

So the vaccinated person gets infected, but responds quicker and better to infection than the unvaxed/NI person. They are less infectious for a shorter period of time.

If R0 (R-nought) is >1, then a virus will spread, since each person infected will infect more than one other person. Reducing the R0 to <1 is the goal of epidemiologists faced with a pandemic. Vaccinations, hand washing, mask wearing, social distancing are all methods to reduce R0

Combine them, maximize them and we win.

 

Edited by phillysailor
Mistyped IgG instead of IgM where bold
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@chum, I have obviously spent time and effort answering your questions.

How about answering mine?

Please defend how blithely you have dismissed the risk the unvaccinated pose to individuals nearby and society at large. Describe why this decision should not be regarded as toxic, unpatriotic, and anti-social. Basically, why aren't these people assholes?

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Just now, chum said:

What does winning look like, seasonal boosters like the flu shot?

Yours is he first explanation here that makes some sense to me, thanks.

Yes, seasonal or yearly boosters may be required. I don't know, really, since those studies are being done real-time. But the more we are vaccinated, the more the masks can come off, social distancing reduced.

Perhaps we are entering a new phase of human existence, where population growth becomes self-limiting. I've always liked the explanation of humanity elucidated best in The Matrix, where Agent Smith labels us a virus, infecting our host and multiplying uncontrollably until we kill it and ourselves.

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7 minutes ago, chum said:

Let me consider that. I consider myself empathatic and I care about my fellow man. I often go out of my way to help people in need.

Probably my biggest obstacle is distrust of our government, and Big Pharma.

Ok, but as a healthcare professional who encounters unvaccinated patients regularly in the ER, the ICU and the OR, I am growing frustrated by the casual dismissal of my safety, my concerns for society writ large. One of the tenets of Conservatives is that they view individual responsibility as all important. It seems that specifically the group self identifying as Conservative is letting us down in this specific way. The hypocrisy is unbecoming.

Our government can be viewed as a behemoth entity which doesn't give a hoot about its citizens, but it can also be seen as by and for the people.

Improving how the representation of voters is obtained and tabulated is therefore one of my priorities. It is why I detest gerrymandering: allowing politicians to pick their voters and designing inequity into the system leads to a government controlled by other mechanisms, power bases and minorities.

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Nah. Whatever moderation that exists here is fairly limited and restrained. Bannings happen when people complain. I would also submit that bannings only happen on multiple complaints, not a single gripe. That said, the authoritarian slant that has become pervasive in PA, I would not be shocked that a few got together to make multiple complaints to ED.
And this has ED's fingerprints all over it. He does not have the patience to delete individual posts or even entire threads. His MO is to zap the whole account and all it encompasses..... which is his prerogative.

Personally I do not block any posters, no matter what. Now there are a handful of people where I just scroll on by because I find their posts objectionable. That said I just will not prevent their words from appearing...... who am I to judge? Who am I to be so close minded?

How many times have you been banned, as of today?

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1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

While I don’t give a shit about 1000 dumbfucks dying a week from COVID it does impact the economy and tangentially  my 401k.  Also somehow the # of dumbshits dying impacts my ability to go maskless at the airport.  These are but two reasons.

Yeah.  Because it is all about you.

Selfish motherfucker.

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I think vaccine hesitancy starts with those with ulterior motives and is carried by folks who listen to them. The motives underpinning disinformation campaigns may be foreign or domestic, political, cultural and economic.

Certainly FOX has profited handsomely, as have those selling Ivermectin and other snake oil therapies. Those countries unable to afford the virus, or jealous of those who can may seek to drive down the cost or just try to fuck with America and the west.

Many Reiich wing politicians have made vaccine disinformation and freedumbs central to their appeal, and they've a willing audience among the misinformed and don't-give-a-fuck about society types. Same group who exercise the right to tailgate and otherwise drive like they are being held up by everyone else on the road.

If you've swallowed the lie that the election was stolen, its not that hard to resent governmental intrusion into your lifestyle choices, if that's how you've been taught to perceive an organized response to the pandemic.

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Nah. Whatever moderation that exists here is fairly limited and restrained. Bannings happen when people complain. I would also submit that bannings only happen on multiple complaints, not a single gripe. That said, the authoritarian slant that has become pervasive in PA, I would not be shocked that a few got together to make multiple complaints to ED.
And this has ED's fingerprints all over it. He does not have the patience to delete individual posts or even entire threads. His MO is to zap the whole account and all it encompasses..... which is his prerogative.

Personally I do not block any posters, no matter what. Now there are a handful of people where I just scroll on by because I find their posts objectionable. That said I just will not prevent their words from appearing...... who am I to judge? Who am I to be so close minded?

If the threads are gone - it's most likely the Ed himself who nuked him.  He typically uses the "erase" button or whatever it's called rather than banning them from the site but leaves their content intact.  At least according to what I remember BJ saying once.

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2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

Personally I do not block any posters, no matter what. Now there are a handful of people where I just scroll on by because I find their posts objectionable. That said I just will not prevent their words from appearing...... who am I to judge? Who am I to be so close minded?

Had to check... I've a few on ignore. Some pretty toxic trolls have graced these pages, and I don't need that crap in my life. 

Freedom of speech laws currently are interpreted only with the speaker in mind, but we are seeing a nascent effort to consider the rights of the listener as well. Disinformation spread for ulterior motives does not have to be supported by third parties. There is a difference between opinion and the deliberate misrepresentation of facts, and the existence of hate speech and extreme anti-social attitudes doesn't mean a forum must host such content.

Banning Trump from FB and Twitter has reduced the impact of toxic and misleading information used solely for his gain. He has been judged by private corporations to have encouraged an assault on our democracy, on Jan 6th but also throughout his political career. 

Having accepted some degree of responsibility for content, forums and social media hosts are molding our national conversation, hopefully for the better. America is an experiment, and this is just another slight modification upon her basic structure.

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11 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

But, was it not Kamala Harris and those of her 'elk' that originally said they would not take a vaccine that was developed under Trump's watch?

I think it both dangerous and wrongheaded to blame one side over the other. They both pull this shit and the truth is thus both stifled and muddied.

But if you are a conspiracy type person, have at it.

If these political figures are still spreading the bullshit, you'd be certain to quote it here and now. But you can't, because as the science and the data has proven the efficacy of the vaccines, Democrats have largely embraced the virus and it's advantages. Certainly on the national stage, there are few examples of unreasonable objections to encouraging citizens to complete their vaccinations.

I think it is both dangerous and wrongheaded to try and find both siderism when one party is responsible for the majority of the disinformation currently hampering our national pandemic response, economic recovery and national security. 

But if you are blinders firmly affixed type person, have at it.

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

You apparently believe in some chapters of my immunology texts, but not others of them.

I didn’t realize science is an á la carte menu, and we could just choose those parts of the topic we find pleasing or intellectually satisfying to “believe in”.

Waning immunity is part of the science, and has been demonstrated by observational studies of COVID. You can’t “like” natural immunity without also respecting the power of a complete vaccine schedule to protect you and society from viral infection and transmission far longer into the future.

In other words, you’re entitled to have an opinion, but your immune system could care less. A complete vaccine schedule provides longer-lasting immunity than any single exposure to the virus.

A second exposure to the virus is far more dangerous than a second or third dose of the vaccine. 

Yup.  I think these idjits also forget that many vaccine shots we've had either as kids or as adults typically require a booster at some point.  MMR, Tetnus, Polio, etc all require boosters at some stage.  

In a perfect world - we would require the Covid vax for all eligible by X date.  After that, we round them all up into quarantine centers, expose them to live Covid and let god sort it out.  Those that don't die will at least have NI and would be released.  And those that did die.......  well darwinism.  

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3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yup.  I think these idjits also forget that many vaccine shots we've had either as kids or as adults typically require a booster at some point.  MMR, Tetnus, Polio, etc all require boosters at some stage.  

In a perfect world - we would require the Covid vax for all eligible by X date.  After that, we round them all up into quarantine centers, expose them to live Covid and let god sort it out.  Those that don't die will at least have NI and would be released.  And those that did die.......  well darwinism.  

Any effort to "round them all up into quarantine centers" strikes me as the absolutely wrong approach.

Far better to go after the sources of disinformation and out-argue them, defeat them with facts, even suppress or ban them in order to save lives and our country than to ban or imprison people. 

Ideas don't have inalienable rights, especially not during times of emergency. Fighting a pandemic requires some restriction upon freedom. I think we've learned at least that much.

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