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3 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

Yup.  I think these idjits also forget that many vaccine shots we've had either as kids or as adults typically require a booster at some point.  MMR, Tetnus, Polio, etc all require boosters at some stage.  

In a perfect world - we would require the Covid vax for all eligible by X date.  After that, we round them all up into quarantine centers, expose them to live Covid and let god sort it out.  Those that don't die will at least have NI and would be released.  And those that did die.......  well darwinism.  

Any effort to "round them all up into quarantine centers" strikes me as the absolutely wrong approach.

Far better to go after the sources of disinformation and out-argue them, defeat them with facts, even suppress or ban them in order to save lives and our country than to ban or imprison people. 

Ideas don't have inalienable rights, especially not during times of emergency. Fighting a pandemic requires some restriction upon freedom. I think we've learned at least that much.

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Much of the problem with RWNJ is the sustained effort to delegitimize the US Government as a source of reliable information. It has borne fruit with "Stop the Steal" fundraising and vaccine disinforma

BB got flicked looks like.

You apparently believe in some chapters of my immunology texts, but not others of them. I didn’t realize science is an á la carte menu, and we could just choose those parts of the topic we find p

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1 hour ago, chum said:
1 hour ago, phillysailor said:

You represent a vector for a deadly pathogen to infect your family, friends, coworkers, healthcare workers, “essential” workers.

Not giving a shit about them is called selfishness, lack of patriotism, or just being an asshole.

 

Sorry, but I eventually get pissed off.

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It’s ok, thanks or the reply. If the vaccines work, and at risk people and anyone else who feels they need it are vaxxed, why does it matter? 

For exactly the reason PS posted above.  Because those of you who choose to not get the vaccine are a potential vector of the disease to others AS WELL AS a breeding ground for the virus to mutate into even nastier strains.  It is the very epitome of selfishness.  We mandate vaccines for children for the exact same reasons.  If you want to be an anti-vaxxer because..... Selfish, then at least do the rest of society a favor and go live in the woods in a commune where you and your elk are separated from the rest of us.  

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3 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Had to check... I've a few on ignore. Some pretty toxic trolls have graced these pages, and I don't need that crap in my life. 

Freedom of speech laws currently are interpreted only with the speaker in mind, but we are seeing a nascent effort to consider the rights of the listener as well. Disinformation spread for ulterior motives does not have to be supported by third parties. There is a difference between opinion and the deliberate misrepresentation of facts, and the existence of hate speech and extreme anti-social attitudes doesn't mean a forum must host such content.

Banning Trump from FB and Twitter has reduced the impact of toxic and misleading information used solely for his gain. He has been judged by private corporations to have encouraged an assault on our democracy, on Jan 6th but also throughout his political career. 

Having accepted some degree of responsibility for content, forums and social media hosts are molding our national conversation, hopefully for the better. America is an experiment, and this is just another slight modification upon her basic structure.

To put it more succinctly, freedom of speech does not mean a requirement to listen.

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5 minutes ago, chum said:

Isn’t there still a large % of your peers still hesitant?

Large or small, it's a frustrating fact that there is hesitancy and reluctance among those with medical knowledge and experience.

The mandates imposed by hospitals, our government and patients are having an impact upon compliance. 

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4 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Any effort to "round them all up into quarantine centers" strikes me as the absolutely wrong approach.

Far better to go after the sources of disinformation and out-argue them, defeat them with facts, even suppress or ban them in order to save lives and our country than to ban or imprison people. 

Ideas don't have inalienable rights, especially not during times of emergency. Fighting a pandemic requires some restriction upon freedom. I think we've learned at least that much.

Sorry, I should have used the purple font.  I assumed the idea was so "out there" that it didn't need an explanation of its sarcasm.

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19 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

But, was it not Kamala Harris and those of her 'elk' that originally said they would not take a vaccine that was developed under Trump's watch?

Fake news. What she actually said was that she wouldn't take a vaccine if Trump was the only person telling everyone to take it. She would take one where medical professionals told us it was safe and effective.

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20 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I am in favor of freedom of speech, after all I have the right to not listen.

OTOH rights come with responsibilities. The classic tag line about free speech is that it does not cover yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater. Deliberately spreading covid misinformation is worse than that.

Trumpublicans are empty-headed but that's not a reason to flick them. They are deliberately destructive, and will work at destroying public good will, mutual trust, and any respect for boundaries of speech or behavior. At some point, it is justified and even necessary to flick them.

- DSK

Ironic post to say the least.

By your metrics The 24/7 false news coverage of the Rittenhouse trial by the left is tantamount to yelling fire in the theater and therefore you all should be banned.


 

 

 

And before you sniveling bitches accuse me of defending BB , I’m on record here calling the poster a POS racist.

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Don't kid yourself - it's political here - just far less so than in the States.

We have our full and fair share of right wing morons.

It is true that we had one political party campaigning on an anti-vax slate in the last federal election, and they did manage to get 5% of the popular vote.  I maintain we should have recorded who they were and offered them free bus tickets to Florida.

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2 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

By your metrics The 24/7 false news coverage of the Rittenhouse trial by the left is tantamount to yelling fire in the theater and therefore you all should be banned.

I'm incredulous at the fantastical leaps that must happen in your brain that you somehow believe to be logical.

 

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Just now, phillysailor said:

Any effort to "round them all up into quarantine centers" strikes me as the absolutely wrong approach.

Far better to go after the sources of disinformation and out-argue them, defeat them with facts, even suppress or ban them in order to save lives and our country than to ban or imprison people. 

Ideas don't have inalienable rights, especially not during times of emergency. Fighting a pandemic requires some restriction upon freedom. I think we've learned at least that much.

Nice idea but when after many, many readings of their idiocy and ignorance and fanaticism it becomes apparent there is no changing their minds or waking them up to reality, ignoring them becomes necessary for one own mental health.

As noted in my signature, I am likely less tolerant of fanatics, fools and ignoramuses than most but still, of all the thousands of members here, I only have a dozen on ignore and several of them are mere trolls with not even real stupid opinions to express, only childishly deliberate shit disturbing.

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Just now, Nice! said:

I'm incredulous at the fantastical leaps that must happen in your brain that you somehow believe to be logical.

Are you saying that being really, really stupid is hard work? :D

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19 minutes ago, chum said:
1 hour ago, chum said:

Why do you suppose so many of your fellow professionals are hesitant, Ive been taking my cue from them, for one.

Isn’t there still a large % of your peers still hesitant?

When you mean Philly's peers - are you talking about the entirety of the medical profession?  Because if so, that is a bit disingenuous.  The vast majority of the medical field who are "hesitant" are nurses or lower (orderlies, admin, etc).  Not Doctors.  The AMA says that 96% of doctors nationwide are fully vax'd.  And while you would think nurses would know better, I'm here to tell you that they are not always the sharpest spoons in the drawer.  You can have nurses with 2 year associate degrees (LPNs iirc) and RN's get some additional training on top of that but do not require a Bachelor's degree.  So nurses are not the most highly educated group out there.  They are great at taking orders, administering meds, cleaning shit off of hospital beds.  I'm not denigrating nurses.  My mother was a lifetime nurse, but she was in the minority who got advanced degrees and ran entire hospitals and LTCFs.  So if you're taking your "Cue" from the hesitancy of of the "medical community" - then you and others are doing yourselves and society a huge disservice.  

So I would listen to those 96% of docs who chose to become fully vax'd over a minimally educated nurse who struggled to decide between beauty school, admin assistant courses, or nursing.  

Just saying.  

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13 minutes ago, Nice! said:
16 minutes ago, Sea warrior said:

By your metrics The 24/7 false news coverage of the Rittenhouse trial by the left is tantamount to yelling fire in the theater and therefore you all should be banned.

I'm incredulous at the fantastical leaps that must happen in your brain that you somehow believe to be logical.

I take issue with much of the crap the left and main stream news sources have published and said about the trial. I do believe an injustice was done to the people of America by labeling those killed innocent protestors, for repeating false claims about Kyle and the source of his gun, the legality of his actions and the culpability of those who attacked him.

I do believe profit motives including social, political and economic underlaid these repeated misleading headlines and arguments. Because it was BLM adjacent activity, many people abandoned their fair-mindedness and principles which would have otherwise guided their reactions. We should hold them accountable if we expect reiich wingers to do the same.

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10 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

When you mean Philly's peers - are you talking about the entirety of the medical profession?  Because if so, that is a bit disingenuous.  The vast majority of the medical field who are "hesitant" are nurses or lower (orderlies, admin, etc).  Not Doctors.  The AMA says that 96% of doctors nationwide are fully vax'd.  And while you would think nurses would know better, I'm here to tell you that they are not always the sharpest spoons in the drawer.  You can have nurses with 2 year associate degrees (LPNs iirc) and RN's get some additional training on top of that but do not require a Bachelor's degree.  So nurses are not the most highly educated group out there.  They are great at taking orders, administering meds, cleaning shit off of hospital beds.  I'm not denigrating nurses.  My mother was a lifetime nurse, but she was in the minority who got advanced degrees and ran entire hospitals and LTCFs.  So if you're taking your "Cue" from the hesitancy of of the "medical community" - then you and others are doing yourselves and society a huge disservice.  

So I would listen to those 96% of docs who chose to become fully vax'd over a minimally educated nurse who struggled to decide between beauty school, admin assistant courses, or nursing.  

Just saying.  

I was unaware Philly was a doctor, my mistake. Neither was I aware that 96% of doctors were vaccinated. Point taken.

 

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1 hour ago, chum said:

What does winning look like, seasonal boosters like the flu shot?

Flu shots themselves are not boosters of prior shots.

Generally they are new vaccinations against viruses and variants of viruses which are expected to be prevalent in the upcoming flu season.

China is generally a few months ahead of the US epidemiologically, so the folks who prepare the flu vaccines look at what is rampaging over in China a few months before our flu season and make up a cocktail of those viruses most likely to be encountered in our season. Which is one reason you can get a flu shot and still get the flu - you may encounter a variant which was not covered in this year's mix or any mix you've gotten.

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1 minute ago, Not My Real Name said:

Flu shots themselves are not boosters of prior shots.

Generally they are new vaccinations against viruses and variants of viruses which are expected to be prevalent in the upcoming flu season.

China is generally a few months ahead of the US epidemiologically, so the folks who prepare the flu vaccines look at what is rampaging over in China a few months before our flu season and make up a cocktail of those viruses most likely to be encountered in our season. Which is one reason you can get a flu shot and still get the flu - you may encounter a variant which was not covered in this year's mix or any mix you've gotten.

Good point. I know that it's a different strain each year, so booster was the wrong word. Do you think we can expect the same from Covid, since it appears to be endemic now, like the flu?

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44 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

If the threads are gone - it's most likely the Ed himself who nuked him.  He typically uses the "erase" button or whatever it's called rather than banning them from the site but leaves their content intact.  At least according to what I remember BJ saying once.

The "Flag as Spammer" button is used against individual accounts and removes all traces of their existence. I think it deletes them, all their topics, all their posts, and blocks their IP addresses in one single step. Not 100% on the IP addresses.

So if BravoBravo and his "body of work" is gone, then that is likely what happened to him.

When I removed people I generally only banned the account, and left the content up there unless if was extremely egregious.

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Unfortunately, some of those with the most fixed opinions countering the efficacy of COVID vaccines are physicians. They speak with a powerful voice, using the symbols, language and platforms of the profession to spread their opinions. It would be great if they fact-checked with leading experts in the fields of virology, immunology and epidemiology before infecting YouTube, Twitter and news organs with their approach to understanding the issues involved.

Unfortunately, in any group of individuals, some will transgress codes of professionalism and challenge established science without sufficient work, knowledge or expertise. But if "first do no harm" is taken as all important, doing the math of vaccinations vs the risk posed by achieving natural immunity should guide advice to patients and the public.

Its comparable to the risk required of patients to drive on a major interstate to get to their doctor's appointment. Yes, the risk isn't zero, but it's worth it.

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13 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

We should hold them accountable if we expect reiich wingers to do the same.

Knowing that the term "Reiich" is viewed by many, if not most readers as a reference to Naziism, why do you use it? Do you really think it's appropriate? I'm surprised you would after reading a lot of your posts of late.

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34 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Any effort to "round them all up into quarantine centers" strikes me as the absolutely wrong approach.

Far better to go after the sources of disinformation and out-argue them, defeat them with facts, even suppress or ban them in order to save lives and our country than to ban or imprison people. 

Ideas don't have inalienable rights, especially not during times of emergency. Fighting a pandemic requires some restriction upon freedom. I think we've learned at least that much.

You don't have to round them up, and that wouldn't be appropriate. But participation in society does mean you agree to certain rules and behaviors WRT the safety of the community. Right wingers have been whining for years when it's pointed out that there is an unwritten 'social contract' to participating in society. They claim they never signed it...maybe it's time to make them.

We've required vaccinations for school for years. Requiring them of other public access is not unreasonable.

So anyone can choose to be unvaxxed and carry disease. And society can say "You may not come in here carrying disease" to everything from airports to movie theaters and other businesses. Participation in public can mandate vaccination.

Don't want to vaccinate? Fine...drive instead of fly, watch your movies at home, use click & collect for groceries, shop for goods online, and keep the willing plague rats away from the rest of the population.

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4 minutes ago, chum said:

Good point. I know that it's a different strain each year, so booster was the wrong word. Do you think we can expect the same from Covid, since it appears to be endemic now, like the flu?

Hopefully, the spike protein fragments identified and used in the mRNA viruses remain a good way for the immune system to ID COVID. The quicker we eradicate the virus, the less opportunity the virus has to morph to an unrecognizable antigen. A bit of a race against time and geopolitical realities, I'm afraid.

A novel change could render the current vaccines useless. That would suck.

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3 minutes ago, chum said:

Knowing that the term "Reiich" is viewed by many, if not most readers as a reference to Naziism, why do you use it? Do you really think it's appropriate? I'm surprised you would after reading a lot of your posts of late.

I view that word in the same contemptuous way I view the N word.

 

Lefties calling those who don’t agree with them “Reiich” or whatever derivatives thereof need to look in the mirror.

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21 minutes ago, chum said:

I was unaware Philly was a doctor, my mistake. Neither was I aware that 96% of doctors were vaccinated. Point taken.

 

https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

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12 minutes ago, chum said:

Knowing that the term "Reiich" is viewed by many, if not most readers as a reference to Naziism, why do you use it? Do you really think it's appropriate? I'm surprised you would after reading a lot of your posts of late.

I'm an enigma, wrapped up in mystery.

 

Sorry, folks. I see the current manifestation of the GOP as a national security threat, and a threat to democracy. I hold the party, combined with FOX News, Newsmax and other aligned groups responsible for the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands during this pandemic.

You can give them and their disinformation-campaign-for-profit a pass, you can deny their culpability for a broad based assault on our electoral systems, but I will not.

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25 minutes ago, Burning Man said:

When you mean Philly's peers - are you talking about the entirety of the medical profession?  Because if so, that is a bit disingenuous.  The vast majority of the medical field who are "hesitant" are nurses or lower (orderlies, admin, etc).  Not Doctors.  The AMA says that 96% of doctors nationwide are fully vax'd.  And while you would think nurses would know better, I'm here to tell you that they are not always the sharpest spoons in the drawer.  You can have nurses with 2 year associate degrees (LPNs iirc) and RN's get some additional training on top of that but do not require a Bachelor's degree.  So nurses are not the most highly educated group out there.  They are great at taking orders, administering meds, cleaning shit off of hospital beds.  I'm not denigrating nurses.  My mother was a lifetime nurse, but she was in the minority who got advanced degrees and ran entire hospitals and LTCFs.  So if you're taking your "Cue" from the hesitancy of of the "medical community" - then you and others are doing yourselves and society a huge disservice.  

So I would listen to those 96% of docs who chose to become fully vax'd over a minimally educated nurse who struggled to decide between beauty school, admin assistant courses, or nursing.  

Just saying.  

My wife has a great many nurses in her Facebook friends list from her days practicing medicine.

A not insignificant percentage of them contribute to clogging her feed with right wing bullshit and memes. Sweet ladies, according to her, but they believe and push some bullshit.

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7 minutes ago, phillysailor said:
16 minutes ago, chum said:

Good point. I know that it's a different strain each year, so booster was the wrong word. Do you think we can expect the same from Covid, since it appears to be endemic now, like the flu?

Hopefully, the spike protein fragments identified and used in the mRNA viruses remain a good way for the immune system to ID COVID. The quicker we eradicate the virus, the less opportunity the virus has to morph to an unrecognizable antigen. A bit of a race against time and geopolitical realities, I'm afraid.

A novel change could render the current vaccines useless. That would suck.

And this is why vaccinating EVERYONE is so critical. It shuts down the festering breeding ground for mutant strains and variants.

The "if everyone else is vaccinated how come I need to be" crowd needs to be slapped upside the head.

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2 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

I'm an enigma, wrapped up in mystery.

 

Sorry, folks. I see the current manifestation of the GOP as a national security threat, and a threat to democracy. I hold the party, combined with FOX News, Newsmax and other aligned groups responsible for the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands during this pandemic.

You can give them and their disinformation-campaign-for-profit a pass, you can deny their culpability for a broad based assault on our electoral systems, but I will not.

That being said, do you think it rises to to the level of Naziism?

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Just now, chum said:

Except, as I understand it the disease is spread by the vaccinated also, how do you factor that in?

The vaccine facilitates a more rapid and more aggressive immune response. It limits the duration and severity of infection.

Basically, you are less infectious for a shorter period of time. R0 closer to 1 or perhaps <1

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And I apologize to nurses as well....  It looks like 88% of them as well as 96% of docs are fully vax'd.  It's the aide and other Health care workers in LTCF's that seem to be the problem.

It can be startling to read reports of disparate vaccination rates among health workers. In the south or the borough of Staten Island in New York City, for example, there are pockets of health workers who are strongly opposed to vaccination. Vaccine hesitancy tends to be more common among the staff of long-term care facilities, where only 60% of staff is vaccinated. A CDC report in July found the lowest vaccination rate of health workers was among aides, including certified nursing assistants, nurse aides and medication aides and assistants, at 45.6% – but that figure was as of March, and it’s likely that rate has risen since. (Nursing aides or assistants usually undergo a four- to 12-week training course, while registered nurses receive two- or four-year degrees and must pass a licensing test.)

In contrast, 88% of nurses and 96% of physicians in the US have already gotten vaccinated or plan to do so, according to surveys by the American Nurses Association and the American Medical Association.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/09/us-nurses-vaccinated-vaccine-hesitant

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12 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Unfortunately, some of those with the most fixed opinions countering the efficacy of COVID vaccines are physicians. They speak with a powerful voice, using the symbols, language and platforms of the profession to spread their opinions. It would be great if they fact-checked with leading experts in the fields of virology, immunology and epidemiology before infecting YouTube, Twitter and news organs with their approach to understanding the issues involved.

Unfortunately, in any group of individuals, some will transgress codes of professionalism and challenge established science without sufficient work, knowledge or expertise. But if "first do no harm" is taken as all important, doing the math of vaccinations vs the risk posed by achieving natural immunity should guide advice to patients and the public.

Its comparable to the risk required of patients to drive on a major interstate to get to their doctor's appointment. Yes, the risk isn't zero, but it's worth it.

I’ve had multiple clients this year who are doctors and I asked each one their opinion on COVID.
All said that in their opinion, COVID is not much  more than a severe flue which affects the elderly, infirm and obese disproportionately to the rest of society.

 

 

All were vaccinated and all said that they would not voice their true opinions publicly out of fear.

 

 

That is concerning.

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4 minutes ago, Not My Real Name said:

And this is why vaccinating EVERYONE is so critical. It shuts down the festering breeding ground for mutant strains and variants.

The "if everyone else is vaccinated how come I need to be" crowd needs to be slapped upside the head.

Somebody here, well, he is a first year nurse, wrote that 95% of the population would have to be vaccinated at the same time. How does that factor in?

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Just now, chum said:

Somebody here, well he is a first year nurse, wrote that 95% of the population would have to be vaccinated at the same time. How does that factor in?

Thats not a realistic public health campaign. We've got a good one going, it would simply be more effective with less signal to noise loss.

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16 minutes ago, Not My Real Name said:

You don't have to round them up, and that wouldn't be appropriate. But participation in society does mean you agree to certain rules and behaviors WRT the safety of the community. Right wingers have been whining for years when it's pointed out that there is an unwritten 'social contract' to participating in society. They claim they never signed it...maybe it's time to make them.

We've required vaccinations for school for years. Requiring them of other public access is not unreasonable.

So anyone can choose to be unvaxxed and carry disease. And society can say "You may not come in here carrying disease" to everything from airports to movie theaters and other businesses. Participation in public can mandate vaccination.

Don't want to vaccinate? Fine...drive instead of fly, watch your movies at home, use click & collect for groceries, shop for goods online, and keep the willing plague rats away from the rest of the population.

Yup.   100%

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1 hour ago, chum said:

Why do you suppose so many of your fellow professionals are hesitant, Ive been taking my cue from them, for one.

The risk profile for COVID swings old.

Your chances of getting COVID and your chances of surviving it are two altogether different things. So if you're young, or just forever young, your chances of getting it are about the same or even better than stay at home granny, better because as young or forever young you're out there hitting the bars hard and coughing in people's faces. You're saying What, me worry? I'll live. Probably.

So you get COVID. So the fuck what? You'll live. Probably. And after you survive you can humblebrag to all your friends about how tough you are, marines are tough, and about your new found natural immunity. Awesome you. All those people you exposed? Don't worry. They'll live. Probably. Maybe not granny, but fuck the bitch.

This is just stupid selfish thinking, your specialty. And if that makes you feel bad, remember, we wouldn't even be in this situation if it weren't for the Chynese.

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

Thats not a realistic public health campaign. We've got a good one going, it would simply be more effective with less signal to noise loss.

So, is there any truth to the statements that were could be creating a "super virus" thats resistant to the vaccines by not immunizing all at once? Much like not taking the whole prescribed dose of antibiotics?

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3 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Young professionals are by definition young. That is how that works. However, the risk profile for COVID swings old.

Your chances of getting COVID and your chances of surviving it are two altogether different things. So if you're young, or just forever young, your chances of getting it are about the same or even better than stay at home granny, better because as young or forever young you're out there hitting the bars hard and coughing in people's faces. You're saying What, me worry? I'll live. Probably.

So you get COVID. So the fuck what? You'll live. Probably. And after you survive you can humblebrag to all your friends about how tough you are, marines are tough, and about your new found natural immunity. Awesome you. All those people you exposed? Don't worry. They'll live. Probably. Maybe not granny, but fuck the bitch.

This is just stupid selfish thinking, your specialty. And if that makes you feel bad, remember, we wouldn't even be in this situation if it weren't for the Chynese.

Chill, O

He's been vaccinated, and I don't think he's considered the selfish angle until this thread. It's tough to question a worldview, but he's at least grappling with good info now.

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6 minutes ago, chum said:

So, is there any truth to the statements that were could be creating a "super virus" thats resistant to the vaccines by not immunizing all at once? Much like not taking the whole prescribed dose of antibiotics?

I think the law of unintended consequences is real, but I acknowledge my inability to predict its implications in this instance.

Man's gotta know his limitations.

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1 minute ago, phillysailor said:

He's been vaccinated

Yeah, the hesitant vaxxed. My favorite. There was someone here, might have been Dumb, might have been someone else, loudly protesting that he was vaxxed and that in fact already had his booster. This was before boosters were even available.

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1 minute ago, Olsonist said:

Young professionals are by definition young. That is how that works. However, the risk profile for COVID swings old.

Your chances of getting COVID and your chances of surviving it are two altogether different things. So if you're young, or just forever young, your chances of getting it are about the same or even better than stay at home granny, better because as young or forever young you're out there hitting the bars hard and coughing in people's faces. You're saying What, me worry? I'll live. Probably.

So you get COVID. So the fuck what? You'll live. Probably. And after you survive you can humblebrag to all your friends about how tough you are, marines are tough, and about your new found natural immunity. Awesome you. All those people you exposed? Don't worry. They'll live. Probably. Maybe not granny, but fuck the bitch.

This is just stupid selfish thinking, your specialty. And if that makes you feel bad, remember, we wouldn't even be in this situation if it weren't for the Chynese.

I don't drink. "Marine" is always capitalized. I always mask in public settings. I never cough in anyones face. Granny has been vaxxed repeatedly, though I understand 30% of those in the ICU in Vermont last week were fully vaxxed, so that is cause for pause. I always consider the odds, and "I'll probably live" was not a consideration, it was much higher than that. 

I thought the vaccines protected people who had them from serious illness or death, that it does not is changing my perception.

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Did someone say covid is over? Here is a new variant just in time for the flu season.

New COVID-19 variant detected in South Africa, scientists say

Source: The Hill

A new COVID-19 variant of "serious concern" has been detected in South Africa, scientists said at a press conference on Thursday. 

"Here is a mutation variant of serious concern," South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at the media briefing, Bloomberg reported. "We were hopeful that we might have a longer break in between waves - possibly that it would hold off to late December or even next year January." 

Tulio de Oliveira, a bio-informatics professor at two universities in South Africa, said the new variant is called B.1.1529 and is "clearly very different" from past mutations of the coronavirus, with a larger number of mutations compared to previous variants such as delta. 

Francois Balloux, director of the UCL Genetics Institute, said the new variant was likely created in an immunocompromised person who can carry the virus for longer than normal.

Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/new-covid-19-variant-detected-in-south-africa-scientists-say/ar-AAR8akJ?ocid=NL_ENUS_D1_20211125_2_2 

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2 minutes ago, chum said:

I thought the vaccines protected people who had them from serious illness or death, that it does not is changing my perception.

This statement is incorrect, your perception should remain as it was. 

Just as a seatbelt does not save all car crash victims, despite the efficacy of air bags to reduce the number and severity of injuries people still die every day. The vaccine is an important tool that DOES prevent serious illness and death, in measurable and often-quoted statistics. Go search them out yourself. 

Don't continue to spread and believe disinformation without fully checking it.

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1 hour ago, chum said:

So, is there any truth to the statements that were could be creating a "super virus" thats resistant to the vaccines by not immunizing all at once? Much like not taking the whole prescribed dose of antibiotics?

Its all about probability but in the case of RNA viruses - like COVID -  'partial vaccinations' aren't as much an issue as with things like misuse of antibiotics.  Their response to stressors is different.

In the case of RNA viruses, they're not as adaptive as a bacteria.  In essence, they're always creating mutations - many of them bad for the virus itself - and its just 'time served' that matters.   They co-opt the host's own machinery to replicate and so each instruction set is what it is at the time of creation.  That is at the root of the 'lab vs nature' debate.  The Bat form of COVID doesn't replicate in humans.  The spikes aren't at the correct spacing.    And similarly, the human form of COVID doesn't replicate in bats.  So, assume there's a random mutation of a COVID virus in a bat cell somewhere that makes it human-compatible... then that random variation won't continue to propagate IN THE BAT.  The spacing is wrong and it can't attack new cells.  That's an an evolutionary dead end.  For that strain to survive, it has to get OUT of a bat and INTO a human (or human compatible species) before it degraded.  And COVID is a pretty wussy virus on its own, destroyed quickly by light and harsh environment.  COVID relies on rapid spread, not hearty durability, to propagate.  That was why the 'natural origin folks' are always looking for an 'intermediate' species - one for whom BOTH bat and human COVIDs can replicate.  That's the intermediate that hasn't been uncovered.  That absence is the biggest piece of evidence in support o the 'lab leak' hypothesis.  There aren't that many crossover species and none have been identified as the bridge-species.  But you can't prove a negative.

Antibiotics interfere with bacteria replication (usually) but bacteria can interact with other bacteria.  When bacteria start to die, OTHER bacteria detect their protein guts spilled out and know something is wrong.  At that point, the survivors flip their internal 'mutate switch' and start trying to adapt to the environmental stressors.  They have their own machinery.  Stuff like this (https://www.pnas.org/content/113/18/E2498) describe the relationship.  So if you start taking antibiotics, you want to take a lethal dose (to the bacteria) so that they die quickly and completely and don't have time to adapt.  Taking partial doses of antibiotics that kill SOME of the bacteria but give the survivors a chance to come up with some new trick is bad.

We don't have to get everyone vaccinated but the sooner the vast majority are vaccinated, the less chance COVID has to come up with a new variant.  Replicating in thousand people is better than replicating in a million people and that's way better than replicating in a billion. 

Personally, I think we're past that window now.  COVID has spread to other human adjacent species and so we'd have to vaccinate all of THEM too.  That's not even remotely possible.  The good news is that the virus wins by spreading, not killing.  So eventually, it may become more benign naturally.

 

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4 hours ago, chum said:

Rain Man being a dick for no reason, preserved until the next EMP event or whatever else it takes to wipe out our fragile existence as we know it here.:o:lol:

Shit weather up here in the PNW today makes me grumpy - hence my moniker.  Don't take it personally. I hid it for you since it bothered you. You can hide posts even after the editing window expires BTW. 

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22 hours ago, BeSafe said:

There IS a issue with the Lipid anchors for the mRNA shots.  That's real and deserves consideration.

You made me curious, thanks.

https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/concerns-of-lipid-nanoparticle-carrying-mrna-vaccine-into-the-brain-what-to-make-of-it-42b1a98dae27

Lots of info, but the conclusion after lots of text with interesting facts;

Thus, the mere 30 micrograms of mRNA vaccine injected intramuscularly pale in comparison to the actual virus infection in the capacity to trigger cytotoxic T-cell attacks in the brain or elsewhere. And yes, SARS-CoV-2 is capable of invading the brain and many other organs.

Indeed, experts in the mRNA discussion google group who first raised the hypothetical risks of LNP-encapsulated mRNA vaccines are still pro-vaccine, agreeing that SARS-CoV-2 or Covid-19 is the larger threat.

To conclude, this article doesn’t intend to undermine the mRNA vaccine but to better understand its subtle intricacies that might be important. Hopefully, there will be more research on this matter. If at all such concern is an issue, which is unlikely, we could still find ways to circumvent it. If not, then we can safely dismiss one worry we have. Either way, it’s worth knowing.

----------------------
So interesting but not something that worries me. But noticed again that a lot of research in MrNA was done before Covid.

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Daily infections rising in 35 states, hospitalizations up in half the country

Eyewitness News 
Thursday, November 25, 2021 1:09PM 

... The CDC now predicts the U.S. death toll will surpass 800,000 before Christmas. 

"We have a half dozen ICU patients that are waiting for beds and don't have beds for them yet," UMass Memorial Health's Dr. Eric Dickson said ... 

https://abc7ny.com/covid-daily-infections-rising-hospitalizations-increasing-hospitals-overwhelmed/11270062/

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

Shit weather up here in the PNW today makes me grumpy - hence my moniker.  Don't take it personally. I hid it for you since it bothered you. You can hide posts even after the editing window expires BTW. 

I did he same, enjoy your holiday.

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47 minutes ago, Ncik said:

Congratulations @phillysailorfor his/her clear and patient explanation of viruses and vaccines in this thread. Hopefully @chum can turn some of the other deniers in it's personal orbit around. #spreadvaxtruth

I don’t have any “deniers” in my “pesonal orbit around”, whatever that means, thanks for your concern. 

Thanks to all who have made meaningful contributions, instead of just personal attacks. This kind of information is useful for the roughly 1/3 of eligible adults left to reach. The rest of the BS doesn’t help at all, and just turns more people off than It sways, espcially coming from people who really have no idea what they’re taking about, but tend to just follow the herd like frightened stupid cows.

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6 minutes ago, chum said:

I don’t have any “deniers” in my “pesonal orbit around”, whatever that means, thanks for your concern. 

Thanks to all who have made meaningful contributions, instead of just personal attacks. This kind of information is useful for the roughly 1/3 of eligible adults left to reach. The rest of the BS doesn’t help at all, and just turns more people off than It sways, espcoially coming from people who really have no idea what they’re taking about.

Thanks for engaging the subject straightforwardly. I engage about 80% of my patients on the topic, and a few have subsequently stated their intention to schedule a job, and many have acknowledged a greater willingness to at least consider vaccination. To me, its like any other discussion of health or medical care. I can give an awesome bedside speech about sleep apnea. I should sell tickets.

 

Not for anything, but I did my third "easy" turkey this year. Refrigerated a COSTCO smoked turkey, which comes pre-cooked & shrink wrapped. Took it out & left it on the counter until 3 hours before din din, then sous vide 135ºF  Take it out of the wrap, pat it dry and bake for 20 minutes at 400º to get the skin a little bit crispy. Juicy, evenly cooked. All you traditionalists will scoff, but i figure the sides steal the show, anyways. My wife has trained the kids to expect a honey baked ham, anyways.

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

... The CDC now predicts the U.S. death toll will surpass 800,000 before Christmas.

Christmas? Try by the weekend. 1500 to go and daily totals over 1K pretty regularly

Current stats

USA 48,988,273 +15,723 798,520 +275
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4 minutes ago, chum said:

The rest of the BS doesn’t help at all, and just turns more people off than It sways, espcially coming from people who really have no idea what they’re taking about, but tend to just follow the herd like frightened stupid cows.
 

a little hypocritical?

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2 minutes ago, Gangbusters said:

The rest of the BS doesn’t help at all, and just turns more people off than It sways, espcially coming from people who really have no idea what they’re taking about, but tend to just follow the herd like frightened stupid cows.
 

a little hypocritical?

Why is that bs wrt covid vaccinations? Completely unrelated, as far as I can tell.

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3 minutes ago, Gangbusters said:

You state that BS doesn’t help, then you post a link to Biden and TFG? How is that relevant to the discussion?

BS surrounding vaccinations.

The post directly above mine pointed out the numbers of deaths we’re expected to reach, I pointed out that our current president put the blame for much lower numbers squarely on the former president. Shouldn’t we expect the same accountability of him?

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1 minute ago, chum said:

BS surrounding vaccinations.

The post directly above mine pointed out the numbers of deaths we’re expected to reach, I pointed out that our current president put the blame for much lower numbers squarely on the former president. Shouldn’t we expect the same accountability of him?

No we shouldn’t. 

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7 hours ago, chum said:

 though I understand 30% of those in the ICU in Vermont last week were fully vaxxed, so that is cause for pause.

 

 

I checked and something like 73% of Vermonters (Vermontians?) are fully vaxxed so 73% of the population is producing 30% of ICU folks. This means that the 27% who are not jabbed make up 70% of the ICU population. Huge advantage to get vaxxed.

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6 minutes ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I checked and something like 73% of Vermonters (Vermontians?) are fully vaxxed so 73% of the population is producing 30% of ICU folks. This means that the 27% who are not jabbed make up 70% of the ICU population. Huge advantage to get vaxxed.

I was pointing out the 30% fully vaxxed in the context of the leaky vaccines, and the question of where that would lead. Clearly 70% is better than 30%, I don’t argue with that.

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36 minutes ago, chum said:

BS surrounding vaccinations.

The post directly above mine pointed out the numbers of deaths we’re expected to reach, I pointed out that our current president put the blame for much lower numbers squarely on the former president. Shouldn’t we expect the same accountability of him?

No. The logic of this shouldn't have to be explained.

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11 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Nope. Not wasting my time. If you don't understand it already (or choose not to, or pretend not to) then you ain't never gonna.

I don’t think you have any logic to explain, you just thought it sounded good, admit it.

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