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Duracell Rebuild Project


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I've enjoyed watching Matt get started with rebuilding Mike Plant's Duracell into something more usable. His videos are a brief 7 minutes which in the long term while I dislike long videos, a little more time would be fun to watch. Love that he's in or near Port Townsend where my most favorite series with Leo on Tally Ho is based. Let's up his views and get Youtube to help pay for the build.

Oh, and he's looking for a 70-80' mast if you know of one.  See the note at the end.

 

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5 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

I believe there is already a thread on Duracell.

It will be interesting to see how this unfolds. I personally love big cockpits, so I would not have gone this way, but he seems to have thought it well out.

I did do a search and it turned up nothing so I forged ahead with my own. I felt that the least we could do as sailors would be to support him through watching his videos. It's a little bit like the fiberglass version of Tally Ho, except different. 

I took the liberty of reaching out to three riggers on the west coast that I know to ask if they knew of a mast laying around any of the yards that they work in. Ryan at Rogue Rigging already saw the request and is working on it so stoked that people are out to support Matt's efforts. 

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9 hours ago, floater said:

kind of fun how it seems to be working out..

 

Well that's the problem...it's buried in Shorthanded Anarchy. Who ever heard of Shorthanded Anarchy?  It hasn't been touched in a month. 

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I wondered if removing the ballast tanks would be dangerous but it's not going to be sailed as aggressively so I think it's a good idea. Making more space inside would be vital.  

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59 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

How tall was the original mast? More than the 70-80’er he’s shopping for?
Maybe that’s the trade off for the water ballast reduction/removal. 

who hasn't wanted to convert a racer to a cruiser? - this is something of an extreme example.

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On 12/2/2021 at 10:24 AM, WCB said:

I did do a search and it turned up nothing so I forged ahead with my own. I felt that the least we could do as sailors would be to support him through watching his videos. It's a little bit like the fiberglass version of Tally Ho, except different. 

I took the liberty of reaching out to three riggers on the west coast that I know to ask if they knew of a mast laying around any of the yards that they work in. Ryan at Rogue Rigging already saw the request and is working on it so stoked that people are out to support Matt's efforts. 

I’m sure they’ve all been scrapped by now, but I’ll double check. There was a whole rack of SC70 rigs at the local airport leftover as everyone went carbon. 

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3 hours ago, WCB said:

I wondered if removing the ballast tanks would be dangerous but it's not going to be sailed as aggressively so I think it's a good idea. Making more space inside would be vital.  

The old keel was 12' deep. Not going to work on a cruiser as mentioned in video. So there will be many ballast changes.

Pretty cool.

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1 hour ago, Monkey said:

I’m sure they’ve all been scrapped by now, but I’ll double check. There was a whole rack of SC70 rigs at the local airport leftover as everyone went carbon. 

That would be money for him to get one of those rigs. Fingers crossed for Matt!

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1 hour ago, floater said:

who hasn't wanted to convert a racer to a cruiser? - this is something of an extreme example.

On Facebook I've been watching the conversion of first gen TP52 into a cruiser racer. Pretty fun to watch but it's a ton of work. They just primed the hull and it's looking pretty sweet. 

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1 hour ago, WCB said:

That would be money for him to get one of those rigs. Fingers crossed for Matt!

They’re stumpy for a 70, and built like a brick shithouse, but would probably work great on a 60. The downfall is that they’re in Wisconsin. 

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On 12/4/2021 at 6:57 PM, Zonker said:

Just rent a Uhaul truck, tie to the roof etc. 

I did that with a couple of Etchells masts. Swept over a sidewalk and freaked a couple of pedestrians out

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On 12/3/2021 at 4:28 PM, WCB said:

On Facebook I've been watching the conversion of first gen TP52 into a cruiser racer. Pretty fun to watch but it's a ton of work. They just primed the hull and it's looking pretty sweet. 

JBird III? What a great project to follow along with. Wish they'd do video, but I'm sure it's more work away from the boat. Can't wait to see her sailing.

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1 hour ago, Murphness said:

JBird III? What a great project to follow along with. Wish they'd do video, but I'm sure it's more work away from the boat. Can't wait to see her sailing.

They post video to Facebook semi-frequently but they're not long and they're not well edited like the Tally Ho videos, just a straight one-take look at some progress.  I had the same thought, if they worked on their presentation more they may have a great following.  They also have a good story and message to tell with the boat as it's going electric and very environmentally focused in its rebuild with respect to technology. 

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11 hours ago, Zonker said:

I suspect if you haul it to a scrap yard you'd make money. Just need a U-haul trailer...

I drove by that thing the other day - I thought it was the scrap yard.

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Hey, Thank you all for watching, it is so fun to have this community a little involved.  I'm always open to new ideas and comments, so please don't hesitate.

I'm currently courting a carbon mast that is off the R/P 70' sled 'Taxi Dancer'.  It was built by Sparcraft to replace the aluminum stick that was originally in the boat.  It was replaced a few years ago by a mast built by Offshore Spars, and it was left in a lot out in Long Beach.  I think that Nelson Marek did the design for the refit.  

At first glance, it seems to be about the perfect fit.  The old rig off Duracell was an extremely heavy aluminum 3 spreader mast.  A lighter carbon 4 spreader mast would allow me to (hopefully) reduce the draft by a couple feet. 

I'm trying to get a hold of the local SoCal designers and riggers to see if anyone can get me the design particulars or drawings.  I would like to know moments of inertia, and righting moment, and drawings to get shroud base width.   So far I've emailed Alan Andrews, Alan Lindsey of Seatek, Greg at Nelson Marek, Reichel Pugh, Sparcraft, and Offshore spars who built Taxi Dancer's new rig. I haven't gotten much back yet. I know they all must be very busy operations, but if anyone knows anyone who may have more info on this rig, please let me know.  I did talk to someone at Sparcraft, their carbon spar operation was under a different name back then that I can't remember, and doesn't exist anymore; but the guy said that I'm definitely in the ballpark with this mast.  

Ideas?

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52 minutes ago, The Duracell Project said:

if anyone knows anyone who may have more info on this rig, please let me know.  

Ideas?

Marek Yacht & Design
5489 Eastwind Rd
Wilmington, NC 28403
Contact: Bruce Marek
Title: Owner
Phone: (910) 799-9245
Website:  
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20 hours ago, The Duracell Project said:

Ideas?

I saw you cut out the ballast tanks.  Do you have plans to replace? 

I think cutting a couple feet off the keep would massively reduce righting moment, which might be a good idea depending on mast specs or might make the boat too tender.

I like the youtube videos.

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On 12/17/2021 at 5:34 AM, eastern motors said:

I saw you cut out the ballast tanks.  Do you have plans to replace? 

I think cutting a couple feet off the keep would massively reduce righting moment, which might be a good idea depending on mast specs or might make the boat too tender.

I like the youtube videos.

Thanks, Yes I did cut out the aft tanks. 

The forward tanks are a lot bigger, I will be cutting them down, and converting them to be used as fresh water.  I estimate around 500 gals per side, so obviously I'll only fill half and it will still be hikeable.  The original rig was thick walled, 3 spreaders, and very heavy, so if I can find something a lot lighter, and reduce sail area, I should be in good shape.  It will be more tender, so I'll probably have to reef a little earlier, which I'm fine with.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

New video hit with Matt cutting off the Pilot House. It's nice to see the big increase in views he's getting to maybe help pay for the project someday.  Looking at this screen grab makes me nervous. It's about this point in a project when I start questioning myself.

 

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2 hours ago, robtoujours said:

Been watching this. Cool project! Will be interesting to see what happens to the keel. 
 

Reminds me a little of this project which I posted in another thread:

 

I checked that project out, probably because of you. That was pretty amazing, what a project. Too bad their video editing skills aren't so strong but the project itself was impressive.

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21 hours ago, Liquid said:

I think its got more ugly to go before it turns a corner...

Agreed with that. I think that they showed a rendering of where it's going and it looked pretty good.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Episode 15 is out.  Building another bulkhead, this time for the traveler.  

 

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How much do you think following the curve of the doghouse with thee Traveller Track would screw with its usability / travel? Seems a shame to me he's keeping it straight, but i can imagine, you don't want the sheet to have to tighten (much) as you drop the traveller.  

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6 hours ago, Gone Ballistic said:

How much do you think following the curve of the doghouse with thee Traveller Track would screw with its usability / travel? 

It would fuck up trimming by a few metric shit tons!

You'd have to ease the sheet while pulling the trav to leeward...

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2 hours ago, Liquid said:

The boom ends at the coach house?

I know, a bit hard to envision but it was also asked in the comments and it got me digging. I think the doghouse is being extended aft, which from my observations would work with the traveler position. @The Duracell Project could probably confirm or discredit this and stop all the speculation :D

 

image.png.93429bdda1d28da89ae2e1c566b5d260.png

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The traveler/ aft coach roof bulkhead is in the same location as the original traveler bulkhead, he's just extending it up to act as the new extended coach roof bulkhead.

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He's smart to keep the trav track straight. Can't dump a traveller if the main tightens as you ease it. And it doesn't take much curve for that to happen.

Maybe Matt should recess it in the roof so the straightness isn't visible :)

Geometry can be your friend or your enemy. Don't be the enemy of geometry.

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Yes, we are extending the house aft, to the original traveler bulkhead.  And extending that bulkhead up to meet the roof of the doghouse so the traveler is in the same position fore/aft, just higher/close to the boom.  We will use the original aluminum boom, and the mainsheet attaches at the end of the boom, thankfully.  I do think that the flat traveler is going to be ugly, but the coach roof is just too curved (almost 5 inches down from center to end) and I prefer to have the geometry work for me(thanks for that @zonker).  Hopefully these plans will help with the confusion.

IMG_2140.JPG

832560747_ScreenShot2022-02-04at3_25_22PM.png

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17 hours ago, Zonker said:

He's smart to keep the trav track straight. Can't dump a traveller if the main tightens as you ease it. And it doesn't take much curve for that to happen.

Geometry can be your friend or your enemy. Don't be the enemy of geometry.

but. if you have a straight traveller - then the main will tighten as you ease it. 

IDEC-SPORT-Voile-2019-14_1080.jpg

 

of course this is common knowledge. guess I'll just blame it on the weather..

https://www.harken.com/en/support/tech-articles/curved-track/

 

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16 hours ago, The Duracell Project said:

We will use the original aluminum boom

thank god! none of that Theseus shit for the Duracell!

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19 hours ago, floater said:

another shot of a traveller that doesn't f*k the leech.

I think he means the traveller will not be curved in the vertical plane rather than on plan. ie the coach roof is cuved downwards at each side, the the traveller will be flat.

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It must be able to cope with some 'ends down' because although the constant radius from goosneck is best, most boats don't bother. Looking at the 1/4 tonner example if that's the perfect radius, the imperfect straight track is a lot straighter, easily as much 'ends down' as 'ends fwd'. Maybe ends down and straight is too much effect, in which case maybe Duracel could go ends down but fwd to compensate. 

Of course it's each to his own but I think it might yank my crank looking at the straight track from the helm. 

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5 hours ago, Steve_sos said:

I think he means the traveller will not be curved in the vertical plane rather than on plan. ie the coach roof is cuved downwards at each side, the the traveller will be flat.

yes. but I just ran an experiment. cranked the main fully down, traveller centered. got hit by a gust, dropped the traveller. Now I can't release the main-sheet - because its too f*ing tight. Any idea what the loads are right now on the traveller? I'll be they're pretty f*ing huge - seriously, the whole thing could explode. Much bigger forces than could ever (or should ever) be applied to the main sheet by hand. I guess most of us get around this problem by easing the main before dropping the traveller, but of course this is just a kludge.

If you had a traveller with a radius then the expected loads on the traveller would always be less. And you would no longer have to continuously manage the trim of both sheet and traveller. what a concept!

One of the nicest main-sheet systems I ever used was (I believe) a continuous sheet that ran from the boom to either side of the coach roof and back to the cockpit. It also acted as a vang. Wish I had a picture. It was a fantastic solution for jibing in a big breeze because it gave such great control on the boom.

 

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If the track is not curved UP or bent to match sheet radius the sheet load will increase as trav car moves outboard. The amount of additional tension will be dependent on the amount of mis-match. Most common is an upward curve to the track ends, this takes the least amount of space & is easiest to install. Radius bends are usually only used for quite long track lengths, as the vertical would get outrageously tall

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4 hours ago, floater said:

One of the nicest main-sheet systems I ever used was (I believe) a continuous sheet that ran from the boom to either side of the coach roof and back to the cockpit. It also acted as a vang. Wish I had a picture. It was a fantastic solution for jibing in a big breeze because it gave such great control on the boom.

 

I think that's called the German or Admiral's Cup Mainsheet system.  https://www.harken.com/en/support/selection-tools/system-diagrams/mainsheet-systems/

 

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It's Wednesday...time for another video from Duracell.  

 

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New video from Matt and Duracell.  Down to SoCal to check out the mast and a seasick kitty who I have to show my little boys when he was chasing shells on the beach.  

@The Duracell Project Matt if you want plenty of opinions on how to finish off the boat, I think you'd find a good audience here.  Regarding the coach roof, I think that I would avoid plywood.  I feel like bending multiple layers of thinner foam core with epoxy and adhesive filler to bond them, over your frames would be a good way to go, then glass the topside.  Once you have all of the layers bonded and glassed in place, remove the coach roof which was fastened to the frames temporarily.  Flip it over in your shop and laminate the under/inside skin while upside down.

 

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Even though its a trimaran you might get some good information on the coach roof construction from Richard and Steve's rebuild of Triple Jack which required a new coach roof. There is a whole thread here on the reconstruction.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Oops!

Maybe use the installed coach house mock up as the female mold for your roof laminate or build another one to laminate inside a more controlled space, using smaller foam pieces and know that we will all morbidly enjoy your fairing videos! 

 

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Making architectural models out of white foam core board (25 years ago), we would score straight cuts through the top layer only to make a curve. That's all I could think about as I was watching him bend that sheet:(.

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He mentioned that he's working on try #2 on his Youtube channel.  I'm worried that if he gets more resin, less air bombs, and better consolidation, that he'll have an even tougher time bending the panel over his roof.  Likely a lighter skin layer to start with followed by a full laminate on the outer/upper, and then return to the inside skin after the fact and finishing the full laminate.  

I was also wondering why he didn't use scored foam but it wouldn't really work in this application anyways since he's laminating it flat.  He could cut come scores in it after laminating it to relieve pressure and then go back later on, fill them them in and laminate over the top.

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1 minute ago, WCB said:

He mentioned that he's working on try #2 on his Youtube channel.  I'm worried that if he gets more resin, less air bombs, and better consolidation, that he'll have an even tougher time bending the panel over his roof.  Likely a lighter skin layer to start with followed by a full laminate on the outer/upper, and then return to the inside skin after the fact and finishing the full laminate.  

I was also wondering why he didn't use scored foam but it wouldn't really work in this application anyways since he's laminating it flat.  He could cut come scores in it after laminating it to relieve pressure and then go back later on, fill them them in and laminate over the top.

or didn't try to form it a little bit towards the curve of the coach roof... those multiple layers of vacuum bagged glass are going to be tough to bend anyway.

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9 minutes ago, Bump-n-Grind said:

or didn't try to form it a little bit towards the curve of the coach roof... those multiple layers of vacuum bagged glass are going to be tough to bend anyway.

Agreed.  As I mentioned a little above, I think that he should bend the core over the frames first, laminate the top in place, and then laminate the interior later.

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Sail has it correct.  Get the top arc using the frames as formers.  Tape the formers to release then zip tie the foam to it, glass over but leave the zip tie areas dry till later you can wet them out after the form has set.  You probably had out gassing [if you used epoxy] that what makes all the puckers and bubbles.  Doing this in a heated box is very difficult because of the unstable heat flow.  All ways glass with the temperature stable or going down and you will minimize the air expanding and lifting the glass.  Good luck [I would wait for a benign weather window]

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Lots of ways to do this.

Scoring/kerfing the foam.

Thermoforming the core first in strips about 24" wide. You can do this with Corecell over a big ass propane heater. Do not breathe the fumes if you get it too hot. Then wet laminate the skin. Or bag it in an envelope bag.

A curved mold made of thin plywood over his formers and a formica glossy skin as the mold surface.

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Duracell is back and they've redone the coach roof and it was a success this time.

 

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Hey All,  So I'm still on the hunt for a mast after the carbon rig in LA had it's spreaders stolen.  I am considering building my own spreaders, but if I could find a mast that is more intact I would obviously lean towards that. 

 

Yesterday I chatted with Bruce who is at the LA Maritime Institute.  They have a mast from a boat called Mr. Bill, which I understand is an Andrews designed 68 or 70' sled.  The aluminum mast was replaced with carbon a few years back and the owner donated the mast to LAMI.  They've been trying to sell it.  I am having a real hard time finding any documentation or specifications about it and am wondering if anyone knows where I could find an old IRC certificate or anything that would have some specifics about the boat and mast?  I'm going to give Alan Andrews a call today and Offshore spars who put in the new mast.  Any other ideas?

 

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2 hours ago, The Duracell Project said:

Hey All,  So I'm still on the hunt for a mast after the carbon rig in LA had it's spreaders stolen.  I am considering building my own spreaders, but if I could find a mast that is more intact I would obviously lean towards that. 

 

Yesterday I chatted with Bruce who is at the LA Maritime Institute.  They have a mast from a boat called Mr. Bill, which I understand is an Andrews designed 68 or 70' sled.  The aluminum mast was replaced with carbon a few years back and the owner donated the mast to LAMI.  They've been trying to sell it.  I am having a real hard time finding any documentation or specifications about it and am wondering if anyone knows where I could find an old IRC certificate or anything that would have some specifics about the boat and mast?  I'm going to give Alan Andrews a call today and Offshore spars who put in the new mast.  Any other ideas?

 

Wow, I don't know the deal terms, but I would think the TD Carbon Rig would be the way to go.   have some carbon spreaders built and the boat will be better for it. 

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Agree- possibly source used spreaders if you can find them to make the carbon rig work. Minnies has some stock of various sizes. Maybe you can find something that works or is easily modified.

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Did you find any other issues with the carbon mast? I assume you can bring down the price with the missing spreader?

I agree that it seems a carbon rig would seem preferable, although you can always add some ballast.

And you have a new video up:

 

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3 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

Agree- possibly source used spreaders if you can find them to make the carbon rig work. Minnies has some stock of various sizes. Maybe you can find something that works or is easily modified.

Maybe @The Duracell Project should reach out to Minnies to see if they have the spreaders. ;) 

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22 hours ago, The Duracell Project said:

Hey All,  So I'm still on the hunt for a mast after the carbon rig in LA had it's spreaders stolen.  I am considering building my own spreaders, but if I could find a mast that is more intact I would obviously lean towards that. 

 

Yesterday I chatted with Bruce who is at the LA Maritime Institute.  They have a mast from a boat called Mr. Bill, which I understand is an Andrews designed 68 or 70' sled.  The aluminum mast was replaced with carbon a few years back and the owner donated the mast to LAMI.  They've been trying to sell it.  I am having a real hard time finding any documentation or specifications about it and am wondering if anyone knows where I could find an old IRC certificate or anything that would have some specifics about the boat and mast?  I'm going to give Alan Andrews a call today and Offshore spars who put in the new mast.  Any other ideas?

 

Look for Runaway Andrews 70  in IRC info.

I believe she was in the great lakes a few years ago and did the Chicago Mac.

 

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I agree that performance wise, the carbon would be much better.  The aluminum mast comes with rod rigging and a boom.  The carbon mast comes with nothing, just a spar.  The Andrews 70(aluminum mast) draft, ballast, beam, and displacement are all pretty similar to Duracell so the rig would probably be a really good fit, apart from the weight of the mast itself because I am trying to reduce the draft.

Is there a difference between an Andrews 68 and an Andrews 70?  I see both everywhere, but it seems they may be the same design?  Supposedly Mr. Bill is a 68.  

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