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Here it is: The ever lasting 5.5 metre world cup thread


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  • Schakel changed the title to Here it is: The ever lasting 5.5 metre world cup thread

Under the International Rule, according to Wiki, there have been 23mR, 19mR, 15mR, 12mR, 10mR, 9mR, 8mR, 7mR, 6mR, 5m,  4mR. I'm not sure how accurate that list is. I've seen 5 metres, 7 metres, 9s, 15s and 23s. Apparently, 4 metres had a moment in Sweden in the 40s. 

The 5.5 is a different formula, devised by Charles Nicholson and Malden Heckstall-Smith in 1948 as a much cheaper boat than a six - only 3 crew, and jibs rather than overlapping genoas. There's some overlap between the 5.5 rule and the ACC rule. 

A link for 5s. https://www.5metre.fi/

Just to also make life difficult, there's a cruiser racer metre rule, that had some traction on the Clyde after the war. But again, AIUI, different from all 3 versions of the International Rule. 

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1 hour ago, Liquid said:

How many Metre classes are there?:

2.4

5.5

6

12

Any others?

Perhaps but that was it.
One question, Why dual pits?dehler30od-fastsailing.thumb.jpg.d1fbfd9a1ee1a31fb75d6e72f40391b3.jpg

She is pretty fast and good looking.
I Do not know much about sailing but I WANT THE FASTEST against any price>
Who are you gonna Call?
Ghost busters.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pertsa said:

Quite few, you listed ones that took off, minus 8 mR

As far as I know 5.5 m is not "true" international rule boat as it uses modified rule calculation.

Sieppaa.JPG.0b77b9012db1dbd87b0d4c48121b93ae.JPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rule_(sailing)

That's not good. My dentist wants high rating, he wants to to sail.
I do not I like him, but I have to trust him well...
I'll have the best dentist in the end if I am am rich enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc

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4 minutes ago, Schakel said:

That's not good. My dentist wants high rating, he wants to to sail.
I do not I like him, but I have to trust him well...
I'll have the best dentist in the end if I am am rich enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9We2XsVZfc

And that's  true.

 

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2 hours ago, Pertsa said:

Quite few, you listed ones that took off, minus 8 mR

As far as I know 5.5 m is not "true" international rule boat as it uses modified rule calculation.

Sieppaa.JPG.0b77b9012db1dbd87b0d4c48121b93ae.JPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_rule_(sailing)

Then there are 22 square metres, 30 square metres, 45 square metres etc

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Morty's latest 5.5s are the ultimate in absolute refinement.  Lovely boats.  John Green in Cowes has been sharing some pics.  

I love the mast heel on a track, so downwind you move the heel a foot aft and the whole rig dangles over the bow with the kite foot in the water.  It's believed to be faster!

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

Morty's latest 5.5s are the ultimate in absolute refinement.  Lovely boats.  John Green in Cowes has been sharing some pics.  

I love the mast heel on a track, so downwind you move the heel a foot aft and the whole rig dangles over the bow with the kite foot in the water.  It's believed to be faster!

I found this one:
1885534967_5.5cowes.thumb.PNG.9a5d24871410f637ce3509f4f9f96916.PNG
Thanks.

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Morty's latest 5.5s are the ultimate in absolute refinement.  Lovely boats.  John Green in Cowes has been sharing some pics.  

I love the mast heel on a track, so downwind you move the heel a foot aft and the whole rig dangles over the bow with the kite foot in the water.  It's believed to be faster!

I sailed on 5.5 metre made in 1960´s and it had apparently original mast heel track. It had about 30 centimeters of movement. 

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I thought that they did that because J (base of fore triangle) was measured, so the more usual way of adjusting rake - a slot in the deck and mast blocks/lever - was illegal.

A quick skim of the class rules shows nothing like that is immediately obvious. 

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I design my own world champ.
Guess who will be main nautical engineer?

https://www.juan-k.com/Juan_Kouyoumdjian.html

I won all ready, who wants to play?
It will cost you a bundle.
More earning then my dentist.
He owns me money.
 

Right Venue:
https://www.braassemermeer.nl/

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21 minutes ago, longy said:

Did the 'Ran' program raise the bar too high?

I would guess a combination of factors including COVID (crew limits and overseas teams locked out), the Cape 31, Ran’s dominance & some boats choosing to remode to race IRC offshore. A number of the Solent boats are for sale (Redshift, Morty’s old one, Hitchhiker etc etc). The autumn round had just 3 boats racing IIRC?

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1 hour ago, Schakel said:

WOOT! Want One Of Those?
Can I buy Vixen?
Is she Herreshoff?


 

New owner just bought her this spring. I got to do a bottom job on it and help maintain it. There are a few of them out in San Diego, US. She was taken from a mold off of a (I think) Swedish boat from the early 50’s by Columbia Yachts and produced to race as an Olympic class. 

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My Seascout group in Long Beach had a donated Colubia 5.5 meter. I think I was one of the few kids that ever got to sail it because most of the adult supervisors (skippers?!) knew little about sailing. I felt like the King of Alamitos Bay whenever I was able to take that boat out! Funny thing was that the winches had the handles on the bottom and a little bench tucked into the turn of the bilge for the 2 crew to sit. That made it look like as helmsman you were the only one on the boat. I would invite a couple of friends to crew for me an if I saw any admiring girls I would call for sail trim and make my crew stay out of sight! 

    Other than the Flying Dutchman I later sailed and raced at the Naval Sailing Club in San Diego the 5.5 meter was the coolest thing on the water for me!

    

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That’s a cool story and the winches are a definite design feature that I liked. Theo owner, not so much. He replaced them with top mounted winches and handles. He and his wife plan on PHRF racing it and she didn’t like the winches…

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Those old fashioned winches have certainly disappeared from modern or modernized 5.5´s. Most use 3 winches, 2 small ones for spin and 1 larger as halyard winch.

Even those cool "steering wheel" winches for running backstays have disappeared.

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7 hours ago, Presuming Ed said:

Andersen still make the under deck sheet winches

E8024119-7A8A-429E-AAF6-47232EA58FC5.jpeg.e28a136081d770d97ac0da03348f7627.jpeg

I Had those on my dragon. I wouldn't want her back, too slow.
Next sailing chapter will be 5.5 or something for my son not sure about it.
There are worst decisions to be made on this planet.

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An excellent 2019 Worlds photo of New Moon by John Green in Cowes.  Thanks, John!

Perfect downwind trim - kite clews level, mast raked far forward using the track under the heel.  Not a lot wrong with this one!

 

5.5m running.jpg

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19 hours ago, P_Wop said:

An excellent 2019 Worlds photo of New Moon by John Green in Cowes.  Thanks, John!

Perfect downwind trim - kite clews level, mast raked far forward using the track under the heel.  Not a lot wrong with this one!

 

5.5m running.jpg

Based on the lack of an instrument wand, I'm guessing  the class prohibits electronics of any kind?

Very cool boat, would be a kick to have a local fleet.

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20 hours ago, P_Wop said:

An excellent 2019 Worlds photo of New Moon by John Green in Cowes.  Thanks, John!

Perfect downwind trim - kite clews level, mast raked far forward using the track under the heel.  Not a lot wrong with this one!

5.5m running.jpg

I wonder could I build such heavily trimmable rig to my vintage classic :ph34r:

1 hour ago, JoeO said:

Based on the lack of an instrument wand, I'm guessing  the class prohibits electronics of any kind?

More or less, I think it is kind of cool and refreshing with ever increasing electrical equipment. From rules:

"Electronics and electricals are permitted but they shall not be used to provide information from third parties nor to correlate true wind speed and direction or true boat speed (VMG)."

 

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I just noticed something about the pic of New Moon.  The Windex post is standing absolutely vertical, even though the mast is leaning so far forward.  Either the arrow is pointing way up in the air going to windward, or there's a tiny wireless actuator on it so you can adjust the post's rake.  If the latter, kudos!

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On 12/13/2021 at 1:21 PM, P_Wop said:

An excellent 2019 Worlds photo of New Moon by John Green in Cowes.  Thanks, John!

Perfect downwind trim - kite clews level, mast raked far forward using the track under the heel.  Not a lot wrong with this one!

 

5.5m running.jpg

What's going on with his leech? There's a kink in it at the second batten

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7 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Doesn't happen on Morty's brand new GBR-42.  No runners!

Interesting, runnerless desings have been tried from 1960´s apparently, but they never became fashionable. 

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On 12/15/2021 at 9:23 AM, P_Wop said:

I just noticed something about the pic of New Moon.  The Windex post is standing absolutely vertical, even though the mast is leaning so far forward.  Either the arrow is pointing way up in the air going to windward, or there's a tiny wireless actuator on it so you can adjust the post's rake.  If the latter, kudos!

Giving this some thought, I think highly unlikely that the wand is either gyro or adjustable. Leaning towards set the Windex to be upright for the Forward raked rig so as to be accurate and helpful in Downwind mode - especially in the light. Upwind less critical. Just my take.

Maybe the New Moon or 5.5 boys can chime in.

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On 12/17/2021 at 9:06 PM, P_Wop said:

Doesn't happen on Morty's brand new GBR-42.  No runners!

Interesting.  I just perused the Facebag images.  Certainly swept spreaders for upwind and they look pretty well swept back with the Spi up too.  Are they giving up forward mast rake? Or, is there some sort of spreader sweep adjustment going on with mast rake control ala the Star set up, but without the runners? Boat does have a top mast back stay, so no need for runners downwind.

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On 12/20/2021 at 11:09 AM, Hitchhiker said:

Interesting.  I just perused the Facebag images.  Certainly swept spreaders for upwind and they look pretty well swept back with the Spi up too.  Are they giving up forward mast rake? Or, is there some sort of spreader sweep adjustment going on with mast rake control ala the Star set up, but without the runners? Boat does have a top mast back stay, so no need for runners downwind.

Not seeing a significant aft deflection of spreaders that you refer to. Though I can't say I have been ultra diligent in looking at all photos.

Did see this picture however, which appears to be the new boat and the one that is runner less....... No drama with achieving forward mast rake for crane clearance, so could for sailing trim.

Also other photos showing very neutral spreader deflection downwind and unrigged. I am sure that there will be other pictures soon. The other picture I took note of was the one showing the runner less boat tied up outside it's stablemate. The new runner less has significantly higher placed spreader location by comparison. That's the beauty of carbon - you can add or subtract laminate to localise stiffness and achieve great overall bend characteristics. 

Interesting fillet on leading edge of keel and reasonable percentage of total chord for trim tab on trailing edge. Also sleek endplate delta to the shoe of the keel rather than full blown winged keel as seen on the 12m's. Dog's Facebook has all these pictures.

Be interesting to see how she goes in '22.

Anyone know how many mainsails are allowed per regatta?

image.png

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On 12/21/2021 at 5:34 AM, Boink said:

That's the beauty of carbon - you can add or subtract laminate to localise stiffness and achieve great overall bend characteristics. 

Sounds similar how it works with wood. My boat has unusual one spreaderpair for its time in 1950, it had stiffer masthead than usual. 

Could not find any limitations of amount on mainsails from rule. I have to admit that I haven't read that very carefully yet. But what I remember is that early years some had two sets of sails with one with large headsail and small mainsail and another with small headsail and large mainsail. Was banned already in first olympics.

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On 12/5/2021 at 6:13 PM, Schakel said:

I design my own world champ.
Guess who will be main nautical engineer?

https://www.juan-k.com/Juan_Kouyoumdjian.html

I won all ready, who wants to play?
It will cost you a bundle.
More earning then my dentist.
He owns me money.
 

Right Venue:
https://www.braassemermeer.nl/

you might want to check how Juan K latest 6mr faired before ordering

8mR class is alive and kicking. unfortunately the Worldcup was cancelled due to covid for the past 2 years due to the circumstances in The Netherlands. but already 15 yachts have registered for the world cup in geneva next year ranging in age from early 1900, to the latest 2017 model. There is also a new boat, which is the last 8mR designed but never built from Starling Burgess. designed after the America's cup tests he did for ranger and all others. immaculate build quality, she already proves very slippery

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10 hours ago, JMOD said:

you might want to check how Juan K latest 6mr faired before ordering

8mR class is alive and kicking. unfortunately the Worldcup was cancelled due to covid for the past 2 years due to the circumstances in The Netherlands. but already 15 yachts have registered for the world cup in geneva next year ranging in age from early 1900, to the latest 2017 model. There is also a new boat, which is the last 8mR designed but never built from Starling Burgess. designed after the America's cup tests he did for ranger and all others. immaculate build quality, she already proves very slippery

They certainly are lookers, 8mr:
8mr-worldcup-geneva-2004-aluette-sui11-photo-james-robinson-taylor-800x530.jpg.72a005077273d5e64d6b6d2f9ead28a4.jpg8mr-worldcup-elsinore-HKG8-S5-Geneva.jpg

The bigger the yacht the more physical power you need to handle the sails during regatta. The older you get the more tiring that gets, even behind the helm is quitte demanding. I used to be a rower so more strength then most. Afterwards regatta's my physical battery was frequently empty, depending on weather conditions.
Eight metre class needs a crew of four to five, 5.5 can be handled with 3 men.

Draft is an issue as well, you can't sail the shallow Kaag with an eight meter. International takes too much time and efford from me and my normal job working crew.
All that in considaration 8 metre is for professional sailing. Dragon is professional sailing on international and Heerema level, and I sail with old friends, no professionals. 5.5 metre is obtainable for me, not above my strength and wallet. And it is a class that I know people in, it's not all new to me. 

So see you on the water, Thanks

 

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an 8 is a different beast indeed, racing with 7. I love the lines of most metre yachts and love that you can follow the development of the designs through time. the 5.5 is a great design as well. especially with the high aspect jibs. I like sailing on most of them too. they are just different from the rest of the boats. the old 8's (or any class) might not look like it compared to moderns, but they are pure race designs from the outside. we had several really high profile pro's on mainsail/tactics and they all sail the boat different. but there are ways to make her really fly if you sail an 8 like a dinghy instead of a yacht. similar for 6's.

with the 5.5, I feel it is very much a design race again with loads of new boats coming in the field. which is fantastic. it just means that to be competitive you need a relatively new boat. in the netherlands, the class is not that big. I think 5 active boats? but if you do get one, and you need crew, let me know!

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
3 hours ago, in_TO said:

Why do 5.5s have the crease along the topsides?

It usually matches a measurement point to maximise or minimise it's dimension. Which crease are you talking about or just asking generally?

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9 hours ago, in_TO said:

Why do 5.5s have the crease along the topsides?

Some of the newer designs may, but not all do.

5 hours ago, Jethrow said:

It usually matches a measurement point to maximise or minimise it's dimension. Which crease are you talking about or just asking generally?

^^

This.

Even Brit Chance's Mariner had a crease along the topsides for measurement purposes - although designed to the entirely different 12mR rule.

Mariner V1 had creases everywhere - topsides and stern steps.  Plus a bow bustle to boot.  Mariner V2 proved faster IIRC - but not fast enough nor enough time to be selected over Courageous or Intrepid.

IMO, stern steps aside, there was a lot of genius in Brit's design of Mariner.  The revised stern looked quite good - and the only photo of it I can think of was in a book that someone "borrowed" from me many years ago.

1974_ac_mariner-1_nq_1_p30.jpg

 

MarinerLines - copie 2.jpg

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On 12/23/2021 at 7:44 PM, Schakel said:

Draft is an issue as well, you can't sail the shallow Kaag with an eight meter.

 

Hee Sukkel, are you a bloody Kaag-zeiler?

You know that has a rather derogatory meaning in the rest of the Netherlands, do you. How do I know?

Anyway, zeilers zijn zeikers! B)

BTW, nice thread...

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7 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Some of the newer designs may, but not all do.

^^

This.

Even Brit Chance's Mariner had a crease along the topsides for measurement purposes - although designed to the entirely different 12mR rule.

Mariner V1 had creases everywhere - topsides and stern steps.  Plus a bow bustle to boot.  Mariner V2 proved faster IIRC - but not fast enough nor enough time to be selected over Courageous or Intrepid.

IMO, stern steps aside, there was a lot of genius in Brit's design of Mariner.  The revised stern looked quite good - and the only photo of it I can think of was in a book that someone "borrowed" from me many years ago.

1974_ac_mariner-1_nq_1_p30.jpg

 

MarinerLines - copie 2.jpg

Brilliant - one rudder right at the vertical turning axis, the other one so small, you couldn’t tack an Oppie with it. 

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There's no measurement point in the five five rule that would give rise to the crease. Instead, it's there to project the droop hiking crew slightly further outboard, and marks the transition between flat topsides with the free tumblehome allowed by the rule (more comfortable for droop hiking), and the bottom shape of the hull. 

The r

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4 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Hee Sukkel, are you a bloody Kaag-zeiler?

You know that has a rather derogatory meaning in the rest of the Netherlands, do you. How do I know?

Anyway, zeilers zijn zeikers! B)

BTW, nice thread...

Braassemermeer, Kaag is een uit-wedstrijd.
You know where most dutch sail-champions have their membership.
Dimmen..

Thanks for compliment.
And it is the dutch, not yachtsmen who can't get enough of pissing around.
Sometimes I am through with it.
752x1200.jpg
https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/dealing-with-the-dutch/1001004010677501/?Referrer=ADVNLGOO002008M-G-119060243227-S-852230091980-1001004010677501&gclid=Cj0KCQiAt8WOBhDbARIsANQLp96qmDcMrWrQXNjF6c3EKvVSez8epojkVf0Vf1uizP9YXU-yvAjdbl0aAm7ZEALw_wcB

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7 hours ago, Liquid said:

Wasn't Mariner time bendingly slow?

I know why. a vertical plane without any hydrodynamic propperties.
It like putting a plank in the water.
 

1974_ac_mariner-2.jpg

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