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21 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

What -would- make me happy would be a rational, logical, explanation why a country of hundreds of millions of people should have an educational system that produces zero black astronauts and an exponential over-representation of Asian doctors; instead of approximately equal proportions of their population percentage(s).

Doug ... sit down, this will be a shocker: People aren't really equal. 

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5 hours ago, Lochnerian Tom said:

It's funny when Ollie repeats "always" three times before being schooled.

Well, in fact y'all right wingers were blithely going on about elite college admissions while ignoring legacies until I corrected you. see above 

And it is also wrong and dumb to say that legacy admits at private Unis don't amount to much.  In fact, there are five million students at those schools,  Right @Blue Crab ?? Most of them, including the one where I taught, find ways to give preference to underperforming white males. At Harvard, for example, there are over 5,000 undergrads, over 2.000 of which received preferential treatment in admission.

If y'all actually read my cites above, you would make fewer egregious errors. 

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34 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Well, in fact y'all right wingers were blithely going on about elite college admissions while ignoring legacies until I corrected you. see above Utter bullshit. Doug and I have argued this before you darkened the PA doorway.

And it is also wrong and dumb to say that legacy admits at private Unis don't amount to much.  In fact, there are five million students at those schools,  Right @Blue Crab NOPE UTTER BULLSHIT: "For the academic year 2019-2020, total 146,851 students have enrolled in Ivy League colleges including both undergraduate and graduate schools - 63,012 undergraduate and 83,839 graduate students. By gender, there are 69,852 male students and 76,999 female students." Wiki.  At the estimated LA admits of 14% in the IL, that comes to almost 21K LAs in an overall US college enrollment of ~20M. Peanuts.

                                                     20,000,000 >21,000

If y'all actually read my cites above, you would make fewer egregious errors. I generally do and as I'm not looking for confirmation, I don't find it. You may bat left but you're not read because you're so freaking far out in Right Field. You and Venom have much in common.

 

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22 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

What -would- make me happy would be a rational, logical, explanation why a country of hundreds of millions of people should have an educational system that produces zero black astronauts and an exponential over-representation of Asian doctors; instead of approximately equal proportions of their population percentage(s).

- DSK

We have Black Astronauts FYI:

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/african_american_astronauts_fs.pdf

 

Re the Asian doctors: There are a LOT of reasons why genders and ethnic groups are over or under represented in certain fields. One of them is discrimination. For the astronauts, the pipeline that supplies them had more than one choke-point that in times past were quite racist and sexist. That issue is largely gone, they let girls in the spaceships too now and at least one of them is Black too for the double-win ;)

For the doctors, I doubt it is discrimination, is there some medical school somewhere sending non-Asian applications to the trash? I think it is cultural, I have both read about and been told by Asian friends of extremely high familiar pressure to excel in school and join high-prestige fields like medicine, law, and engineering. This is only a bad thing to the extent you have doctors, lawyers, and engineers that really wanted to be poets or crew on a crab boat and thus live frustrated lives. Join the club :rolleyes:

 

 

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

We have Black Astronauts ...

 

Who got into flight school, and then into the space program, by Affirmative Action... although they were all extremely intelligent and capable, white guys got there first

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Who got into flight school, and then into the space program, by Affirmative Action... although they were all extremely intelligent and capable, white guys got there firts

- DSK

No one is disputing that, astronauts used to exclusively come from a subset of military aviation that was almost 100% white men and 100% male back in the day. Affirmative Action was needed to "prime the pump", but IMHO it should be temporary, at some point you need to just make sure the various skin tones and genital arrangements all have an even shot at whatever it is.

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

No one is disputing that, astronauts used to exclusively come from a subset of military aviation that was almost 100% white men and 100% male back in the day. Affirmative Action was needed to "prime the pump", but IMHO it should be temporary, at some point you need to just make sure the various skin tones and genital arrangements all have an even shot at whatever it is.

Agreed. But not everybody does, some just hate-hate-hate the idea of Affirmative Action in the first place. I actually don't think it's a good idea, I just think it's a better idea than saying "Gosh dang, we'd like to have us some Nigra flyers and doctors but ain't none of 'em passed the test yet."

And there is very wide disagreement on how long it's needed for.

I've already gone much too far into the specifics oh how we chose people for medical school, but that's kind of a special case.

- DSK

 

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1 minute ago, AJ Oliver said:

Lots of them are like Dubya - born on third base and think they hit a triple. 

Not exactly, no one glided into the left seat of a space ship on the strength of being white and they were not exactly from the 1%er class either. They ran very demanding gauntlet that included multiple chances to wash out or die. It was as close to a meritocracy as you will see with the exception that minorities and women were excluded from being able to enter the race for a long time.

Bush The Lesser got a coveted "No Combat" slot in the ANG, which WAS a privilege the 1% could finagle for their kids. Bush The Greater actually put his life on the line for his country back in WW II.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Bush The Lesser got a coveted "No Combat" slot in the ANG,

There is much more .. .   how do you think Dubya got into Yale ?? 

But kudos to the U. of Texas that turned him down for law school; 

and a yuge Booooooo!! to Harvard that accepted him for its MBA program 

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18 hours ago, AJ Oliver said:
On 12/21/2021 at 4:12 AM, Lochnerian Tom said:

It's funny when Ollie repeats "always" three times before being schooled.

Well, in fact y'all right wingers were blithely going on about elite college admissions while ignoring legacies until I corrected you. see above 

Well, OK, from above:

  

On 12/20/2021 at 6:38 AM, Lochnerian Tom said:

So you're saying your posts here caused Koch-$pon$ored Trump cheerleaders to take up your cause?

You're simply amazing, Ollie! Congrats on that achievement!

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On 12/21/2021 at 10:07 AM, AJ Oliver said:

Well, in fact y'all right wingers were blithely going on about elite college admissions while ignoring legacies until I corrected you. see above 

And it is also wrong and dumb to say that legacy admits at private Unis don't amount to much.  In fact, there are five million students at those schools,  Right @Blue Crab ?? Most of them, including the one where I taught, find ways to give preference to underperforming white males. At Harvard, for example, there are over 5,000 undergrads, over 2.000 of which received preferential treatment in admission.

If y'all actually read my cites above, you would make fewer egregious errors. 

just saving this before it goes away.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

just saving this before it goes away.

Well, you stupid lying weasel . . . 

I wrote that there are 5 million students at PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES, not the Ivies, which there are. 

I taught at a PRIVATE UNIVERISTY, that was not an Ivy. 

Can you grasp that ??  

(Not very likely)  

Legacies are a "thing" at many colleges and unis, not just the Ivies 

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21 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

I taught at a PRIVATE UNIVERISTY, that was not an Ivy. 

Nobody but nobody thought you taught at an ivy which really was the context of the issue all along. And the larger issue was your claiming that LA Admits were a big deal at "elite colleges." 

But even allowing you meant private unis as you stated, and assuming the same 14% LA admits is still around 700,00 students out of the total 20M.  

So to restate: 700K students attending PRIVATE colleges and unis had help getting admitted at their PRIVATE schools. Which part of private don't you get? 

Legacy admits are life. People use payola.

 

Edited by Blue Crab
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3 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Nobody but nobody thought you taught at an ivy which really was the context of the issue all along. And the larger issue was your claiming that LA Admits were a big deal. 

But even allowing you meant private unis as you stated, and assuming the same 14% LA admits is still around 700,00 students out of the total 20M.  

So to restate: 700K students attending PRIVATE colleges and unis had help getting admitted at their PRIVATE schools. Which part of private don't you get? 

Legacy admits are life. People use payola.

 

Are you under the impression that PRIVATE schools don't get a share of your tax dollars?

- DSK

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18 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

Is that a serious question?

No, Dougie, had you read carefully as you claim others do not, I have stipulated that the ivies, among others, have dropped their ad requirements to continue receiving gov't grant monies.

 

So, you're saying that PRIVATE universities are allowed to follow whatever kinky admission procedures they want, and exclude minorities if they choose to, etc etc; and should have no accountability to taxpayers... because... umm, help me out here...

- DSK

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49 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

So, you're saying that PRIVATE universities are allowed to follow whatever kinky admission procedures they want, and exclude minorities if they choose to, etc etc; and should have no accountability to taxpayers... because... umm, help me out here...

- DSK

I don’t know what he is trying to say, but there are some private colleges that eschew government support of any kind so that they do not have to abide by federal non-discriminatory regulation and affirmative action regulations.

Hillsdale College in Michigan, where Pat Sajak is chairman of the Board of Trustees, is one such place.  From Wikipedia:

“Since the late 20th century, in order to opt out of federal affirmative action policies, Hillsdale has been among a small number of U.S. colleges to decline governmental financial support, instead depending entirely on private funding to supplement students' tuition.”

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5 hours ago, jerseyguy said:

I don’t know what he is trying to say, but there are some private colleges that eschew government support of any kind so that they do not have to abide by federal non-discriminatory regulation and affirmative action regulations.

Hillsdale College in Michigan, where Pat Sajak is chairman of the Board of Trustees, is one such place.  From Wikipedia:

“Since the late 20th century, in order to opt out of federal affirmative action policies, Hillsdale has been among a small number of U.S. colleges to decline governmental financial support, instead depending entirely on private funding to supplement students' tuition.”

If they are not getting any taxpayer money, then  I completely and happily agree they have no accountability to taxpayers.

But the great majority of "private" universities and colleges are heavily dependent on on gov't funds

- DSK

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10 minutes ago, Blue Crab said:

None of the big important ones are "dependent" in the way you mean.

Close their doors? No. But serious cutting and have to change their operation enough to be recognizably, significantly, different institutions? Yes, definitely.

And a moot point anyway, are you saying they should take the taxpayers' money and say "fuck you!" to the strings attached?

- DSK

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Close their doors? No. But serious cutting and have to change their operation enough to be recognizably, significantly, different institutions? Yes, definitely. Not the best ones. Not even close. 

And a moot point anyway, are you saying they should take the taxpayers' money and say "fuck you!" to the strings attached? It's like the rest of this argument never happened. 

 

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"And a moot point anyway, are you saying they should take the taxpayers' money and say "fuck you!" to the strings attached?"

What doesn't make sense is I've answered this question at least twice already and you're unaware. 

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1 minute ago, Blue Crab said:

"And a moot point anyway, are you saying they should take the taxpayers' money and say "fuck you!" to the strings attached?"

What doesn't make sense is I've answered this question at least twice already and you're unaware. 

All I've seen from you is yelling at Ollie to get off your lawn, and snide remarks that maybe it would better if we didn't have to twist the rules to pretend minority people can really be doctors and presidents and astronauts n' shit. I understand having fun spitballing the teacher, but in general you seem smarter than this.

- DSK

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

All I've seen from you is yelling at Ollie to get off your lawn, and snide remarks that maybe it would better if we didn't have to twist the rules to pretend minority people can really be doctors and presidents and astronauts n' shit. I understand having fun spitballing the teacher, but in general you seem smarter than this.

Well, apparently that's all you've noticed. Same with several other points in the past. A guy that won't read is worse than a guy that can't read, IMO.

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