BMW Needs To File A Lien Against A Vessel In California. Who Has Done This?

[fstbttms 117]

I have a client who refuses to pay for hull cleaning services that we have already provided. Typically in this situation I send a "Letter of Demand" threatening small claims court and/or a mechanic's lien and usually this is enough to motivate the client to pay. Not so in this case. Never having actually filed a lien on a vessel before and finding confusing/conflicting information about the process online, I thought I'd ask here if any of you legends have experience with it in California (or more specifically, in Alameda County) and can enlighten me on how to go about it. Thanks.

[billy backstay 1,680]

Go down and foul the shit out of his bottom, and tie a bucket or three to the keel and rudder, if it's not transom mounted....

Used to be when a Tenant stopped paying, some Landlords would go into the apartment while they are away at work, throw all their possessions  into the yard, or street, and change the locks.   That would get you jail time nowadays!!

[Ventucky Red 1,102]

Is there a contract in place for the services?

If not, you're only recourse may be small claims court.

Also, check the DMV website, they may have some guidance on how to go about this or at least all the paperwork.

[SloopJonB 12,559]

[fstbttms 117]

5 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

But a quick question, what is this customer's reasoning for not paying?

Customer claims the work was never authorized, despite my showing her the lengthy text conversation in which she did indeed authorize the work.

[fstbttms 117]

27 minutes ago, Ventucky Red said:

Is there a contract in place for the services?

If not, you're only recourse may be small claims court.

Also, check the DMV website, they may have some guidance on how to go about this or at least all the paperwork.

No official "contract" in place, as is typical in this industry. As noted above, she did however, authorize the work in writing via text message.

I have looked at the DMV website but it seems to have nothing on the placing of a lien, only on the execution of "lien sales."

I am also going to file in small claims court, which I have done before.

[fstbttms 117]

BTW- the harbormaster and neighboring liveaboard were made aware of this situation by the client, so any retribution taken by me would likely get me banned from the marina, besides being illegal. So that's a non-starter. And I've been in this business long enough to know that's not how a reputable service provider rolls anyway.

[Cruisin Loser 2,657]

Pass the word to the other people in your business. Just the facts, the work was authorized, you did the work, she did not pay. 

Like it or not, most people end up with the reputation they deserve.

Good call on the retribution. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

[fstbttms 117]

3 minutes ago, Cruisin Loser said:

Pass the word to the other people in your business. Just the facts, the work was authorized, you did the work, she did not pay. 

Like it or not, most people end up with the reputation they deserve.

I admin a Facebook group of 2300 hull divers and one of the functions of the group is to provide a place to "blacklist" deadbeat customers, which I have done in this case. But if you know anything about hull divers, then you know that there is always going to be somebody hungry enough to take any job that comes along, regardless of what they may have learned about the customer.

[Grande Mastere Dreade 4,131]

calling Clean, Clean,  cleanup in isle 2  down by the scrubbers..

[pbd 262]

Small claims seems to be the best action.

As long as she's not selling a lien doesn't really put any pressure on her

[fstbttms 117]

Just now, pbd said:

Small claims seems to be the best action.

As long as she's not selling a lien doesn't really put any pressure on her

Her intent is to sell the boat.

[SloopJonB 12,559]

37 minutes ago, fstbttms said:

BTW- the harbormaster and neighboring liveaboard were made aware of this situation by the client, so any retribution taken by me would likely get me banned from the marina, besides being illegal. So that's a non-starter. And I've been in this business long enough to know that's not how a reputable service provider rolls anyway.

But apparently not long enough to develop a sense of humour.

[Ishmael 10,553]

2 hours ago, billy backstay said:

Go down and foul the shit out of his bottom, and tie a bucket or three to the keel and rudder, if it's not transom mounted....

Used to be when a Tenant stopped paying, some Landlords would go into the apartment while they are away at work, throw all their possessions  into the yard, or street, and change the locks.   That would get you jail time nowadays!!

I knew a landlord who would simply go and take their front door away.

[Max Rockatansky 914]

Call yer local sheriff and see if they will offer advice

[fstbttms 117]

5 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Call yer local sheriff and see if they will offer advice

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

[BobJ 152]

A boat yard would know how to file a lien and I think you know some of those folks.

[fstbttms 117]

1 minute ago, BobJ said:

A boat yard would know how to file a lien and I think you know some of those folks.

Also a good tip. Thanks Bob!

[LakeBoy 111]

How is the boat registered?  State ( w/title) or USCG documented?  That should guide on way to place lien. 
Is it listed w/Broker?  May want to have a word with them just to “advise” about the situation. 

[Mrleft8 3,535]

Another option would be to make a legal purchase proposal to the owner, for the services rendered fee, and get the sale locked up in court so that she can't sell until the fee is paid. A contract is a contract, after all, verbal, or written.

 That would probably cost you more in lawyers fees than worth it, but.....

[fstbttms 117]

11 minutes ago, LakeBoy said:

How is the boat registered?  State ( w/title) or USCG documented?  That should guide on way to place lien. 
Is it listed w/Broker?  May want to have a word with them just to “advise” about the situation. 

The boat is not documented and if information about placing a lien on a state registered boat was readily available, I wouldn't have started this thread.

[fstbttms 117]

11 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Another option would be to make a legal purchase proposal to the owner, for the services rendered fee, and get the sale locked up in court so that she can't sell until the fee is paid.

This is precisely what a lien does.

[Mrleft8 3,535]

Just now, fstbttms said:

This is precisely what a lien does.

Yes, but different. Typically a lien is used in cases where there is a bank loan involved. A good faith purchase proposal can be a cash deal. (I'm not a real estate, or banking genius, just relating past personal 2nd hand experience)

[fstbttms 117]

4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Typically a lien is used in cases where there is a bank loan involved. 

Not in the case of a mechanic's lien.

 

[F_L 122]

In Tx you have to have a signed work order for a mechanics lien. Don't know anything about CA.

[Sea warrior 137]

4 hours ago, fstbttms said:

BTW- the harbormaster and neighboring liveaboard were made aware of this situation by the client, so any retribution taken by me would likely get me banned from the marina, besides being illegal. So that's a non-starter. And I've been in this business long enough to know that's not how a reputable service provider rolls anyway.

“Before you embark upon a journey of revenge, dig two graves”

 

 

 

Small claims court and suck it up are your only options imho 

[Navig8tor 1,762]

Liens are hellishly expensive, several companies I worked for in the States attached liens to vessels but it has to be worth doing and when the bill is north of 100k it may be worth it otherwise you can record and make any potential buyers nervous.

Googled this a CA Admiraly lawyer explaining the process; See the Bolded bits the bold is mine.

I am in no way connected to the lawyer or firm quoted -just wish to help disseminate good information.

Good luck.

Ask a Maritime Attorney: What are the steps to put a lien on a vessel?

 David WeilAugust 26, 2021

 

Question:

Our building materials company is supplying a substantial amount of material for the renovation of a historic vessel, and the primary contractor has asked us to open a line of credit for him. We are very experienced with these type of jobs on real estate projects but it is our first project involving a boat. As security for the extension of credit, we want to protect our ability to lien the vessel if the contractor fails to pay. What steps do we need to take to ensure our future lien rights?

 

Answer

Maritime liens are a source of confusion for boat owners and lenders alike, and as such we have spent a lot of time in this column over the years talking about maritime liens. Our reader presented an interesting question because it provides an opportunity to compare maritime liens to construction liens.

A lien is a financial tool that provides security for a debt. The debt often arises from work performed on some type of property, but it may be related to almost any obligation (many of our readers, for example, may be familiar with IRS liens).

A lien – any lien – may be understood by asking two fundamental questions: How is the lien perfected, and how is the lien enforced? The “perfecting” of a lien is the process of converting a claim for an unpaid obligation into a legal right against a piece of property. The “enforcement” of a lien is the process of converting that legal right against a piece of property into a payment to satisfy the obligation.

A contractor who provides labor and materials for a building in California must follow a clear set of rules to perfect and enforce a lien against that building. Pursuant to California Civil Code sec. 3143 and 3144, the contractor must first record a Notice of Claim of Lien with the County Recorder’s office, and then he must file a lawsuit to enforce the lien within 90 days after the lien is recorded. The procedure is clear and unambiguous, but there is no similar procedure for maritime liens.

A famous legal scholar once wrote, when comparing maritime liens to other types of liens, that “a lien is a lien is a lien, but a maritime lien is not.”  His point was that you should disregard most of what you know about liens when you enter the world of maritime liens.

Let’s start with the lien recording process. As noted above, a lien must be recorded for a real estate construction project prior to the enforcement of the lien through the filing of a lawsuit within 90 days after the lien is recorded. Conversely, there is no recording requirement for maritime liens and there is no time limit that ties lien recording to the filing of a lawsuit.

A Notice of Claim of Lien may be recorded against a vessel’s title by filing the appropriate paperwork with the US Coast Guard’s National Vessel Documentation Center (“NVDC”).  But the recording of a lien against a boat is optional.  Recording has no effect on the validity of the lien or the underlying claim, and recording is not necessary prior to taking steps to enforce the lien.

A claimant does not “lien the vessel.” A maritime lien is instantly perfected without recording it anywhere, assuming that the services were provided at the request of the owner or owner’s representative, and assuming that the nature of the services will give rise to a maritime lien (the services must basically provide some kind of benefit to the vessel).

Recording a Notice of Claim of Lien with the NVDC has no legal effect on the rights of the claimant or on the rights of the vessel owner. Recording the claim only (1) clouds the title, which may encourage payment by the vessel owner if the vessel is ever listed or offered for sale; and (2) Notifies the vessel owner and the rest of the world that you might have a lien. I say “might” have a lien, because the NVDC will accept virtually anything for recording, so long as the claim includes a notarized signature and a statement under penalty of perjury that the claim is being submitted for recording in good faith. The NVDC makes no determination regarding the validity of the claim. The validity must be tested in court.

Speaking of going to court, let’s take a look at the enforcement process.  As noted, the claim does not need to be recorded. Whether you opt to record or not, the procedure for enforcement is the same. A lawsuit is filed in Federal Court, seeking damages for breach of contract and a warrant for the “civil arrest” of the vessel.  Assuming the warrant is issued and the boat is seized by the United States Marshals, and custody is then transferred to a commercial custodian until the vessel is either sold at auction or released under a bond. The lawsuit then proceeds along the lines of any breach of contract lawsuit.

This is essentially a sneak attack – no notice is required to the vessel owner and the vessel is typically seized by the Marshals before the vessel owner is served with the Complaint.

We should point out in closing that this is a very expensive process.  Legal fees, court costs, and related custodial costs for the vessel may easily exceed $40,000.00 for the uncontested foreclosure of a maritime lien on a medium-sized yacht. The costs will increase significantly if the claim is contested.

I often close this column with a note that readers should discuss these issues with a qualified maritime attorney for information specific to their case. This is especially true when dealing with maritime liens. This is a very specialized area of law.

 

 

David Weil is licensed to practice law in the state of California and as such, some of the information provided in this column may not be applicable in a jurisdiction outside of California. Please note also that no two legal situations are alike, and it is impossible to provide accurate legal advice without knowing all the facts of a particular situation. Therefore, the information provided in this column should not be regarded as individual legal advice, and readers should not act upon this information without seeking the opinion of an attorney in their home state.

 

David Weil is the managing attorney at Weil & Associates (www.weilmaritime.com) in Seal Beach. He is certified as a Specialist in Admiralty and Maritime Law by the State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization and a “Proctor in Admiralty” Member of the Maritime Law Association of the United States, an adjunct professor of Admiralty Law, and former legal counsel to the California Yacht Brokers Association. If you have a maritime law question for Weil, he can be contacted at 562-799-5508, through his....

[Ventucky Red 1,102]

1 hour ago, Mrleft8 said:

Yes, but different. Typically a lien is used in cases where there is a bank loan involved. A good faith purchase proposal can be a cash deal. (I'm not a real estate, or banking genius, just relating past personal 2nd hand experience)

There are all sorts of liens that can be placed against your real property; tax, mechanics, code enforcement, association fees, Mello-Roos, small claims, court judgment, and a few more.  

Early last year before the market took off we were looking at the worst house in the best neighborhood. And trust me, it was the worst. It was going to be a 'down to the studs" project, but that is not what scared us. There was a boatload of liens against it from the city (code violation fines and permits), county (fire department usage fine/violation - weird/tax lien), and property tax, a California Superior Court (restitution judgment) two mechanics liens, and another for Child Support.  What it boiled down to was we were going to own the house for a year before we could even think about doing anything to it while all the paperwork worked through the system.

Keep in mind, a property like this is not eligible for a conventional real-estate loan, more like "my cousin Tony knows a guy" along with the 'you're getting a deal 18.9% compounded hourly.."

The county liens were the easiest, give us the money and we're good. the Superior Court, little tricky, but the title company I worked with knew someone who knew someone on how this worked and how to navigate through... no, it is not that easy when judges' signatures are required, and of course, that was an extra $1,000.00. The city was the problem... After we satisfied the liens we need to apply for permits...  for Pete's sake, I needed a permit for the permit that was never a permit because there was a permit that superseded that permit that was never paid for because the permit for that expired and on and on and on.  But I will say, the person at the city permits office was awesome.  When I gave him the address, he started laughing.  Kind of reminded me of Milton from the movie Office Space and had this on his desk

 

 

 

 

[Point Break 4,385]

3 hours ago, fstbttms said:

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

Law enforcement does not intervene in civil matters. Not their wheelhouse.

[Gouvernail 3,934]

I am not sure about your relationship with the community and the  other who support the community. 
On our  little puddle there are a few wonderful support mechanisms:

*When a long term owner changes service providers, most of us check to see why. In fact, those of us who have been around a few decades not only ask the customer but we check with our friends at the other business. 
Sometimes my suggestion  to the new customer is to work out the problem with his old service provider.  Sometimes, I rescue each side from the other. We can’t all always get along. 
*Pretty much everybody understands the service providers take care of the toys and the owners give the service providers enough money to live.  The rest of the community takes a dim view of deadbeat boat owners who fail to pay their fair share. 
* Marina owners love having reliable service providers. They love to refer tenants to reliable service providers. When one of the tenants fails to pay one of the marina’s go to providers, it pisses off the marina owner. 
* People make handling mistakes, the most likely person to hurt your boat, is the boater in the adjacent slip.  If your neighbor doesn’t pay his bills, odds are good he won’t pay up when he smashes into your boat. 
* in general, boat owners drive nicer vehicles, live in nicer houses, and have nicer boats than the service providers. People take a dim view of rich folks who rob from poor folks. That dim view is reinforced when the guy being ripped off is your trusted go to service fella. 
 

Then there is good old Sailing Anarchy. When Conrad Meub yanked his boat off my lot without paying his bill, I put an honest description of the entire interaction in a thread in Sailing Anarchy.  For the next five years, anyone who googled Conrad’s name got the thread as the number one result. 
      Conrad and I finally had a conversation because, when he asked Scott to take down the thread, Scott’s reply was, “You need to work that out with Gouvernail. I won’t take it down unless Gouvernail agrees or you demonstrate his story is untrue.”

    Conrad never paid his bill in full but I had sufficiently enjoyed jacking him around to be willing to let the few thousand dollars go. 
   I asked Scott to remove the thread. 
 

FYI: Today I googled his name and found Conrad donated to to the Mayor Pete campaign.  Conrad isn’t even on my shit list any more…. But I sincerely doubt any toy of his well ever again be allowed in my shop. 

[Point Break 4,385]

The reality of civil matters is unless it’s a significant amount of money you’re tossing your effort down a black hole. Small claims might work if you have any documentation of a work agreement…..even emails/texts might be sufficient in that setting as the burden of proof is much lower and pretty much up to the judge. 

[longy 848]

In SoCal - a friend of mine who was a high end/quality boat painter went thru the entire process. Got the lien, got all the paperwork. It was up to the sheriff's dept to seize the vessel for non-payment. They could not be bothered. Boat got sold. There are a few ways to dodge the lien. Walk away, have a beer

[Ishmael 10,553]

1 minute ago, longy said:

In SoCal - a friend of mine who was a high end/quality boat painter went thru the entire process. Got the lien, got all the paperwork. It was up to the sheriff's dept to seize the vessel for non-payment. They could not be bothered. Boat got sold. There are a few ways to dodge the lien. Walk away, have a beer

I thought the lien followed the boat, but that's in Canada.

[steele 195]

Sad to say, but I agree with Longy. It was not uncommon for people to not pay for my services. I was in a higher volume lower reimbursement business than you, but by the time I accounted for the time and energy it took to deal with the cheats it was better to just write if off and move on. I made sure I never dealt with them again, and took measures to inform my colleagues of their behavior.

If you are not willing to walk away one option might be to use a collection agency. This may not work because there is no signed contract, but it does make it someone else's problem and they are very persistent going after the debtor.

[charisma94 316]

Am not from SFB so have no idea of diver costs. But curious how much money are we talking about here?

No one likes to get stiffed and totally sucks. But there may be better ways to spend ones time. Move on and have a beer as previously suggested.

[fstbttms 117]

44 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I thought the lien followed the boat, but that's in Canada.

It's the same here. Leins follow the boat. Mechanic's liens are used all the time to good effect. I just have never done it. And it seems like all those telling me to walk away haven't either. I came here looking for somebody with experience in this particular situation, not uninformed  opinions.

 

[Ishmael 10,553]

42 minutes ago, fstbttms said:

It's the same here. Leins follow the boat. Mechanic's liens are used all the time to good effect. I just have never done it. And it seems like all those telling me to walk away haven't either. I came here looking for somebody with experience in this particular situation, not uninformed  opinions.

 

Are you new here?

[fstbttms 117]

5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Are you new here?

Yeah, you’d think I’d have known better 

[Go Left 203]

5 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Are you new here?

I would approach the State Department of Labor and Industries (or whatever California calls it) and ask about filing a Mechanic's Lien.  Those are specifically for workers who have been denied compensation by employers.

[Mrleft8 3,535]

2 hours ago, Point Break said:

Law enforcement does not intervene in civil matters. Not their wheelhouse.

Tell that to the Gilchrist County sheriff's dept.

[Grande Mastere Dreade 4,131]

7 hours ago, Ishmael said:

I knew a landlord who would simply go and take their front door away.

that will land you in jail in texas.... in fact any type of retribution against a tenant will land you in jail...    pretty much only way is to go through the court and get a judgment and conviction...  

[DA-WOODY 1,274]

PM Boat Prix

 

[Grabbler 362]

5 minutes ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

that will land you in jail in texas.... in fact any type of retribution against a tenant will land you in jail...    pretty much only way is to go through the court and get a judgment and conviction...  

Yeah! But ain't karma a bitch if their a/c goes out in the middle of a FL summer and it comes down to "if you want me to call my a/c guy then pay the arrears"...

[Orion Jim 128]

1 hour ago, Grande Mastere Dreade said:

that will land you in jail in texas.... in fact any type of retribution against a tenant will land you in jail...    pretty much only way is to go through the court and get a judgment and conviction...  

I used to turn the electrical service off when they left for work. Turn it back on before they returned. Refrigerators and air conditioning units don’t seem to work well without some amperage coming their way. Impossible to prove the source of mischief. 

[Zonker 5,236]

California boat liens

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbook/vehicle-industry-registration-procedures-manual-2/lien-sales-abandoned-abated-vehicles/vessel-liens-boaters-lien-law/

Every person has a lien (dependent upon possession), for compensation for making repairs, performing labor upon, furnishing supplies or materials for, storaging, repairing or safekeeping of, and for costs incurred in mooring, berthing, wharfage, and anchorage of, and for the rental of a trailer parking space for that vessel or vessel/trailer combination, subject to registration with the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV).

The lien arises at the time a written statement of lien (bill) specifying the charges for services and/or storage is sent to the vessel owner(s).

Fair Market Value Statement—A statement of the fair market value completed and signed by a licensed yacht and ship broker must be sent along with the Notice of Pending Lien Sale for Vessels or Vessel/Trailers Valued at $1,500 or Less (BOAT 156) form to the Lien Sale Unit in DMV headquarters. The fair market value statement is not required if the vessel or vessel/trailer was a police impound.

Send a copy of the Pending Lien Sale document to the Owner. Might get their attention. But I think your small claims court is a good idea. Enforcing the judgement may be more difficult. If you go with small claims court, be prepared with your video evidence of a dirty bottom before and clean bottom after. Print out your text message exchange. Discuss with court clerk what video evidence you can provide and how it will be done. Judges don't want you to spend more than a few minutes stating your case so being well prepared and clear in your verbal statement of what happened. Have it written down beforehand.

 

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

Amazing that 47 posts in no one has actually posted the California statute.   Good try Zonker. 
pretty simple actually. Notice puts a “stop transfer” on the registration at an admin level.  60 days to file suit or move for sale. 
 

I have never seen a cheap shitbag seller move faster than when their title is liened 
 

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=HNC&division=3.&title=&part=&chapter=2.&article=4

[kent_island_sailor 5,284]

 

A general observation and one reason I no longer fix boats for a living:

If your car is in the shop, the bill is the bill.

If your airplane is in the shop, the bill is the bill.

If a plumber fixes your pipe, the bill is the bill.

If your boat needs fixing, the bill is the starting point for negotiation

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

In my experience, service providers with ambition for growth will usually develop procedures to deal with deadbeats and relationships with advisors to help. They spend the time and money to put a lien process in place and have strong service contracts. When the day comes to send notice, they send notice, and when the day comes to file for a sale, they file.  When the numbers get big enough, they file a claim in federal court.

[billy backstay 1,680]

14 hours ago, Point Break said:

The reality of civil matters is unless it’s a significant amount of money you’re tossing your effort down a black hole. Small claims might work if you have any documentation of a work agreement…..even emails/texts might be sufficient in that setting as the burden of proof is much lower and pretty much up to the judge. 

 

Kind of like evicting Tenants who don't pay.  It can cost thousands of dollars, and hours in court.  Better solution is to pay them a grand or two if they agree to move out.....

[Ed Lada 5,091]

1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Amazing that 47 posts in no one has actually posted the California statute.   Good try Zonker. 
pretty simple actually. Notice puts a “stop transfer” on the registration at an admin level.  60 days to file suit or move for sale. 
 

I have never seen a cheap shitbag seller move faster than when their title is liened 
 

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=HNC&division=3.&title=&part=&chapter=2.&article=4

Good job Clean.

You've earned the 'Pink Flag' seal of approval  for Marine Barristry.  

[fstbttms 117]

2 hours ago, quod umbra said:

For the record FB, I was not going to sue the guy, wasn't worth the time to collect a grand or so..... but when he initiated legal action, the gloves came off.

In 27 years I have taken only one client to small claims. I was well prepared and when he saw this, he decided to pay what he owed. But since my invoices are typically fairly small and the fact that going to court is time consuming and not free, I have only threatened this option since that time. Usually the threat is enough. But the customer in this particular case however has made it clear that she welcomes the chance to meet me in court so I intend to give her that opportunity.

[Snore 340]

@fstbttms On my second or third delivery ever, I had a deadbeat.  Long story short, if the vessel is documented, you can file a lien through them.  In FLA, if state registered, you can go that route.

 

I go lucky, boat I was dealing with was sold from one attorney to another.  Since the paperwork to record the sale had not been filed- my case would have squashed the sale. Selling attorney leaned on buying and I got my money. (I no longer do deliveries for attorneys).

Suggestion to you is print out the texts.  Develop an objective chronology and share both with the owner.  Advise if not paid, will file with state.  And that once filed with state it is public record that others could access, or you could share.

That worked for me.

[fstbttms 117]

6 minutes ago, Snore said:

@fstbttms On my second or third delivery ever, I had a deadbeat.  Long story short, if the vessel is documented, you can file a lien through them.  In FLA, if state registered, you can go that route.

 

I go lucky, boat I was dealing with was sold from one attorney to another.  Since the paperwork to record the sale had not been filed- my case would have squashed the sale. Selling attorney leaned on buying and I got my money. (I no longer do deliveries for attorneys).

Suggestion to you is print out the texts.  Develop an objective chronology and share both with the owner.  Advise if not paid, will file with state.  And that once filed with state it is public record that others could access, or you could share.

That worked for me.

The vessel is not documented. I have the HIN and CF number. So my question remains (60 posts later), what is the actual procedure for filing a lien? There must be paperwork to fill out and fees to pay. I find it hard to believe that nobody in this group has done this as a service provider against a vessel the owner of which owes for services rendered.

[Ventucky Red 1,102]

1 hour ago, fstbttms said:

The vessel is not documented. I have the HIN and CF number. So my question remains (60 posts later), what is the actual procedure for filing a lien? There must be paperwork to fill out and fees to pay. I find it hard to believe that nobody in this group has done this as a service provider against a vessel the owner of which owes for services rendered.

Just asked my brother about this, he is a contractor, and more than once he has had to go after a deadbeat homeowner and/or the general contractor.

He tells me you should go to the county recorders office and they can walk you through the lien process and help with the paperwork.   He said you're better off in small claims if it is under $1500.00, but don't waste any time getting this done.

But if you must, maybe this can help

 

 

[fstbttms 117]

14 minutes ago, Ventucky Red said:

 

But if you must, maybe this can help

 

 

Precisely the info I was looking for. Thanks!

[BobJ 152]

Except this is a boat registered with the DMV, not real estate.  See Clean's "stop transfer" post above.  Or call a boatyard's office as I suggested earlier.

[Black Sox 1,125]

On 12/19/2021 at 6:39 PM, fstbttms said:

I admin a Facebook group of 2300 hull divers and one of the functions of the group is to provide a place to "blacklist" deadbeat customers, which I have done in this case. But if you know anything about hull divers, then you know that there is always going to be somebody hungry enough to take any job that comes along, regardless of what they may have learned about the customer.

Every profession has its bottom-feeders.

Oh, wait…

Seriously, though, while I know it’s a specific jurisdiction you’re talking about, i can only offer an example that happened under UK law that may have some parallels.

I bought a used car from a dealer in London and imported it to Ireland. Within a couple of weeks I noticed a problem and had it diagnosed as leaking valve stem oil seals. I hade many fruitless telephone conversations and emails with the dealer, who wouldn’t engage. I lodged a claim in the UK small claims court (it’s not called that but works the same) for the price of the car plus transport, servicing etc. 

The court sent notice of the claim out to the dealer and he had a certain time in which to either agree the claim or confirm he got the notification, dispute it and agree to arbitration.

When he hadn’t responded by the time limit, the court defaulted to ruling my claim final and binding. So I was now perfectly entitled to keep the car AND send bailiffs in to his premises to collect, on my behalf, cash or goods to the value of my claim.

He lost big time by simply ignoring the paperwork he was sent. Maybe something like that will work in your favour.

 

Good luck with it.

[fstbttms 117]

2 minutes ago, Black Sox said:

I lodged a claim in the UK small claims court (it’s not called that but works the same)

Regardless of how the lien shakes out, I will be filing in small claims court.

[Marcjsmith 1,006]

I owned a landscape business what seems like a hundred years ago.  had a bmw sales guy  stiff me on a landscape install.  was about 2K.  can't repo the plants.  so I went to place of business he kicked me out.  I had nice leggy broad go in under the guise of buying a car,  serve him papers.  she was kicked out,  but he got served.

he did not show up for court.  Small claims  I had documents, contract, etc.   got the judgement,  and went down and filed a mechanics lien on his house.  In FLA  the lein is good for 7 years and can be renwed twice. for a total of 21 years.  they allows for all court fees, filing fees, time spent attempting to collect etc as well as 12% interest.

 

3-4 year later  he calls wanting to pay the original amount.  "ill think about it"  about 30 min later the title company calls.  he wants to refi.  payoff was now close to 4K process was simple,in FL  back in the 90's I can't imagine its that simple in CA nowadays.

for what small claims cost to file.  for me it was the principal.  it was winter, things were slow so I had some time to burn.

once you get judgement,  then its a matter of collecting.  In FL you could force a sheriff sale of belongings to settle the debt as well as the lien.

collecting the prop as collateral would seem like the thing to do,  but  in the end, it would likely come back to haunt you and cost you money. would be satisfying know that they'd never get it out of the dock for sea trials

[Willin' 1,695]

BMW? May I inquire what this signifies in this instance?

Around here a BMW is a Big Maine Woman, which is the dominant population segment. Of course, before the local Navy base closed it was a Big Military Wife.

 

 

[Go Left 203]

4 minutes ago, Willin' said:

BMW? May I inquire what this signifies in this instance?

Around here a BMW is a Big Maine Woman, which is the dominant population segment. Of course, before the local Navy base closed it was a Big Military Wife.

 

 

Boat Maintenance Worker, the civilized replacement for a term best forgotten.

[kent_island_sailor 5,284]

2 hours ago, Go Left said:

Boat Maintenance Worker, the civilized replacement for a term best forgotten.

No more Boat Nannies?

 

[Ventucky Red 1,102]

3 hours ago, Willin' said:

BMW? May I inquire what this signifies in this instance?

Around here a BMW is a Big Maine Woman, which is the dominant population segment. Of course, before the local Navy base closed it was a Big Military Wife.

 

 

Bob Marley Whalers - Ya mon

[Willin' 1,695]

16 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

No more Boat Nannies?

 

I remember that being a sensitive and way over discussed issue about 10 years ago or more.  One member from the Bahamas IIRC took exception to the use of the old term, and he doesn't come around any more, unfortunately.

[DA-WOODY 1,274]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why we need ‘Blazing Saddles’ now more than ever

• By
• Marta Rusek
• May 23, 2016

Cleavon Little and Gene Wilder are shown in this still image from the 1974 Warner Bros. film 'Blazing Saddles.'

Mel Brooks’ takedown of racism in America, the 1974 film “Blazing Saddles,” is still relevant and funny as hell thanks to its empowering lead character. Ironically, the film could not be made today.

Mel Brooks’ takedown of racism in America, the 1974 film “Blazing Saddles,” is still relevant and funny as hell thanks to its empowering lead character. Ironically, 42 years later, the film about a black sheriff who takes on a ruthless gang of thugs (and racial prejudice) to protect a small town in the Wild West could not be made today. Even Brooks, himself, agrees that it was a story that pushed the limits of comedy.

“It was not easy to get this picture made,” Brooks told a packed house at the Academy of Music this past weekend. “I said, ‘Let’s write the hell out of this, because it’s never going to be seen!'”

Brooks wrote the script with a copyright lawyer and a dentist (Norman Steinberg and Alan Uger, respectively) who had decided to try their hands at screenwriting; Andrew Bergman, who wrote the original story outline; and the legendary comedian and loose cannon Richard Pryor. And miraculously, Warner Bros. not only gave the script the go-ahead to be produced, but the studio left Brooks and company pretty much alone until the film premiered.

A new leading man for mainstream America

By 1974, moviegoers had already been introduced to Sidney Poitier through “In the Heat of the Night” and “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner,” and Blaxploitation films like “Shaft” and “Superfly” were a hit with black audiences, but black leading men were still scarce on the silver screen.

For “Blazing Saddles,” Brooks had his heart set on hiring co-writer Richard Pryor to play the lead role of Sheriff Bart, but in one of its few production interventions, Warner Bros. refused his choice. Pryor’s criminal record and drug problems would prevent the studio from getting insurance for the production.

Enter Cleavon Little, who Brooks calls a “handsome, sophisticated actor,” who had extensive experience acting in theater and on television. Sheriff Bart was his first lead role in a motion picture, and despite being released the same year as “The Godfather: Part II” and “Chinatown,” “Blazing Saddles” went on to become the highest grossing film of 1974.

With his acting chops and memorable dialogue, Little proved that a black actor could hold his own as the leading man and appeal to (predominantly white) audiences. Without Cleavon Little, there would be no Kevin Hart, Will Smith, or Eddie Murphy.

Defeating hatred through comedy

Location and lead actor aside, “Blazing Saddles” is a continuation of a formula Brooks employed in his breakout 1968 hit “The Producers”: take the wind out of evil’s sails by turning it into a punch line.

While “The Producers” took aim at Hitler and the Nazis, “Blazing Saddles” targeted racism in America. Taking on racism also meant using racial epithets, which was a constant source of anxiety for Brooks. But co-writer Richard Pryor insisted that the language was necessary to tell the story.

“He would give his permission [to use] the N-word everywhere,” Brooks said.

But Brooks would not have been able to pull off the many uses of the word, or indeed any of the racially-charged humor, had it not been set against the backdrop of a Western film. The costumes, the sets, and the musical score all lent legitimacy to the story, which made it easier to expose the ridiculous backwards thinking that is born out of racism.

This idea is particularly evident toward the end of the film, when the all-white citizens of Rock Ridge must decide between granting equal rights and land to the African American and Asian railroad workers who could help them save their town, or allowing their prejudice to prevent them from uniting against a common enemy who could destroy them all. At last, a town leader relents.

“Alright, we’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks,” he says. “But we don’t want the Irish!”

 

Hard to imagine a line like that being included in a 2016 feature film, yet it reveals the twisted logic that comes from embracing an “us versus them” mindset.

In a past interview, Brooks had described why humor was the best weapon to defeat perpetrators of hateful ideologies.

“You can’t get on a soapbox with these orators, because they’re very good at convincing the masses they’re right. But if you can make them look ridiculous, then you can win over the people.”

A beautiful sentiment to behold, Mel.

[Go Left 203]

1 hour ago, Ventucky Red said:

Bob Marley Whalers - Ya mon

Wailers

[Grande Mastere Dreade 4,131]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:29 PM, Grabbler said:

Yeah! But ain't karma a bitch if their a/c goes out in the middle of a FL summer and it comes down to "if you want me to call my a/c guy then pay the arrears"...

texas,  send certified letter to landlord, if not taken care of , you get fined...       i've been at a texas court when they have eviction cases...  the judge tells leases/leasers where the "book" on each other's rights are and always suggest reading thoroughly...  i've seen both get badly thrashed by the judge for their actions..

[Grande Mastere Dreade 4,131]

10 hours ago, fstbttms said:

Regardless of how the lien shakes out, I will be filing in small claims court.

your best bet, ....    print out the text in triplicate and make sure the judge has one before the case ...  you might even want to take one over to her broker to see what they're dealing with..

[Grande Mastere Dreade 4,131]

10 hours ago, Marcjsmith said:

I owned a landscape business what seems like a hundred years ago.  had a bmw sales guy  stiff me on a landscape install.  was about 2K.  can't repo the plants.  so I went to place of business he kicked me out.  I had nice leggy broad go in under the guise of buying a car,  serve him papers.  she was kicked out,  but he got served.

he did not show up for court.  Small claims  I had documents, contract, etc.   got the judgement,  and went down and filed a mechanics lien on his house.  In FLA  the lein is good for 7 years and can be renwed twice. for a total of 21 years.  they allows for all court fees, filing fees, time spent attempting to collect etc as well as 12% interest.

 

3-4 year later  he calls wanting to pay the original amount.  "ill think about it"  about 30 min later the title company calls.  he wants to refi.  payoff was now close to 4K process was simple,in FL  back in the 90's I can't imagine its that simple in CA nowadays.

for what small claims cost to file.  for me it was the principal.  it was winter, things were slow so I had some time to burn.

once you get judgement,  then its a matter of collecting.  In FL you could force a sheriff sale of belongings to settle the debt as well as the lien.

collecting the prop as collateral would seem like the thing to do,  but  in the end, it would likely come back to haunt you and cost you money. would be satisfying know that they'd never get it out of the dock for sea trials

in texas we have "collection agents" ,    hound them to they die..

[Kitchen Remodel 34]

JFC you're getting some shitty advice here.  Judgment liens are different from mechanics liens which are different from landlord liens which are different from construction liens, all of which are different from maritime liens.  The silly anecdotes are even more useless than usual.  Clean at least got you what appears to be the relevant statute, and the cookbook procedure is relatively simple and spelled out for you.  If it's not clear, try calling a lawyer, give them the statutory cite (this is key, the statute is likely unfamiliar to most lawyers, but is simple and straightforward), explain how much you're owed, and ask if you can pay for an hour (or less) of their time to get some help with filing it.  Explain that you're not asking them to foreclose the lien, you just want help in getting it filed properly with the hope of having it recognized and addressed at closing of the anticipated boat sale.  In my jurisdiction the lawyer time and expense might be recoverable in court under a different statute which is designed to encourage settlement in small civil cases, but not sure whether CA law has a similar provision.  Lawyer costs too much?  Call another one.  You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lawyer boat owner. Find one of those, tell them your tale of woe and maybe offer them a sweetheart deal on an anode replacement or something if they will help.   

And go to small claims as well.  Be organized, but mostly be chronological.  I see too many scattered presentations that jump all over the place with extraneous and irrelevant shit.  This is a contract action.  The issue is whether a contract was formed and if so what are its terms?  "Susie called me on April 7 and asked me to clean the bottom of her Macgregor 26X at Alameda Marine slip 45.  I quoted her $350 for the job.  She said that was fine.   I did the work on April 10.  She now claims that she never agreed to pay me.  Here are 7 text message between us outlining the terms of the agreement and her acceptance.  I am asking the court to award me the agreed price plus court costs."         

[Rasputin22 3,492]

Just take your case to Judge Judy?

[DA-WOODY 1,274]

32 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Just take your case to   Judge Judy?  Jerry Springier !!

fi4U

[Gong Show 53]

4 hours ago, Kitchen Remodel said:

JFC you're getting some shitty advice here.  Judgment liens are different from mechanics liens which are different from landlord liens which are different from construction liens, all of which are different from maritime liens.  The silly anecdotes are even more useless than usual.  Clean at least got you what appears to be the relevant statute, and the cookbook procedure is relatively simple and spelled out for you.  If it's not clear, try calling a lawyer, give them the statutory cite (this is key, the statute is likely unfamiliar to most lawyers, but is simple and straightforward), explain how much you're owed, and ask if you can pay for an hour (or less) of their time to get some help with filing it.  Explain that you're not asking them to foreclose the lien, you just want help in getting it filed properly with the hope of having it recognized and addressed at closing of the anticipated boat sale.  In my jurisdiction the lawyer time and expense might be recoverable in court under a different statute which is designed to encourage settlement in small civil cases, but not sure whether CA law has a similar provision.  Lawyer costs too much?  Call another one.  You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a lawyer boat owner. Find one of those, tell them your tale of woe and maybe offer them a sweetheart deal on an anode replacement or something if they will help.   

And go to small claims as well.  Be organized, but mostly be chronological.  I see too many scattered presentations that jump all over the place with extraneous and irrelevant shit.  This is a contract action.  The issue is whether a contract was formed and if so what are its terms?  "Susie called me on April 7 and asked me to clean the bottom of her Macgregor 26X at Alameda Marine slip 45.  I quoted her $350 for the job.  She said that was fine.   I did the work on April 10.  She now claims that she never agreed to pay me.  Here are 7 text message between us outlining the terms of the agreement and her acceptance.  I am asking the court to award me the agreed price plus court costs."         

Tell me what you want.

Tell me why I should give it to you.

Tell me my authority for giving it to you.

How to talk to judges 101.

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

4 hours ago, Kitchen Remodel said:

JFC you're getting some shitty advice here.  Judgment liens are different from mechanics liens which are different from landlord liens which are different from construction liens, all of which are different from maritime liens.  The silly anecdotes are even more useless than usual.         

Oh come now, you don’t think he should follow the instructions for filing a judgment lien posted by Ventucky or something from a Texas anecdote? Surely a sailmaker from City Island or a fiberglass sprayer from Jersey has the solution to this conundrum!

It must be moron mating season or something 

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

On 12/19/2021 at 1:24 PM, Ventucky Red said:

Is there a contract in place for the services?

If not, you're only recourse may be small claims court.

Also, check the DMV website, they may have some guidance on how to go about this or at least all the paperwork.

No

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

On 12/19/2021 at 1:39 PM, fstbttms said:

I admin a Facebook group of 2300 hull divers and one of the functions of the group is to provide a place to "blacklist" deadbeat customers, which I have done in this case. But if you know anything about hull divers, then you know that there is always going to be somebody hungry enough to take any job that comes along, regardless of what they may have learned about the customer.

Be careful and stick to the facts when you blacklist someone. 

[Mrleft8 3,535]

2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Oh come now, you don’t think he should follow the instructions for filing a judgment lien posted by Ventucky or something from a Texas anecdote? Surely a sailmaker from City Island or a fiberglass sprayer from Jersey has the solution to this conundrum!

It must be moron mating season or something 

Sandhill Cranes....

Ugly, ungainly, fly funny, but way....waaaaay up in the sky, so you can barely see them, they sound kind of cool.

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

On 12/19/2021 at 1:54 PM, pbd said:

Small claims seems to be the best action.

As long as she's not selling a lien doesn't really put any pressure on her

 No, but it is a property interest that depends on priority and can force a sale without that much trouble. If she is a deadbeat with you she is a deadbeat with others, get yo claim in!

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

Just now, Mrleft8 said:

Sandhill Cranes....

Ugly, ungainly, fly funny, but way....waaaaay up in the sky, so you can barely see them, they sound kind of cool.

Ribeye in the sky

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

On 12/19/2021 at 2:04 PM, quod umbra said:

IIRC,9in NY at least, The County Sheriff is the person to contact to place a lien.
Good luck.

Nope

[MR.CLEAN 4,187]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:31 PM, fstbttms said:

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

Nope