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BMW Needs To File A Lien Against A Vessel In California. Who Has Done This?


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1 minute ago, Gong Show said:

Education is not free. You either eat the cost now, or you pay to have a professional show you the ropes.

You are getting bent that nobody is giving you their trade secrets for free!

Filing a mechanic's lien is a "trade secret"? Bwahahahahaha!

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2 minutes ago, Gong Show said:

Two pages would suggest, yes!

Is that what that suggests? I'd say that 90% of the posts on these two pages were either completely unrelated to the topic or "advice" given by people unfamiliar with it.

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Just now, fstbttms said:

Is that what that suggests? I'd say that 90% of the posts on these two pages were either completely unrelated to the topic or "advice" given by people unfamiliar with it.

All things considered you did pretty well.

I suspect the normal amount of 'chaff' regarding these kind of questions here is around 98%. 

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8 minutes ago, fstbttms said:

Is that what that suggests? I'd say that 90% of the posts on these two pages were either completely unrelated to the topic or "advice" given by people unfamiliar with it.

Some of us never claimed to be experts, nor did we stay in a Holiday Inn.. just trying to help.

 

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For reference, how many times did you clean the bottom without getting paid? 
 

If you want to make sure the clients pay, I would suggest using a payment app like Venmo. You can let the client know beforehand that it’s time to pay before you perform the task. 

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22 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

For reference, how many times did you clean the bottom without getting paid? 
 

If you want to make sure the clients pay, I would suggest using a payment app like Venmo. You can let the client know beforehand that it’s time to pay before you perform the task. 

Two times. Boat was on a monthly schedule.

My little company accepts PayPal, Venmo and Zelle as well as cash, credit cards and checks. But it is not typical to ask a customer to prepay a service and I have no interest in doing so. Not to mention we usually don't know what the invoice total will be beforehand, what with possible anode installations etc. and especially in a case like this (new client, neglected bottom.) Some hull cleaners require a credit card up front to forestall deadbeat non (or late) payers but this happens infrequently enough that I have never felt motivated to do this.

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Maybe the cleaners that retain a card number for security do it for just the reason you are experiencing. If you have a good business and good clients, you can surely ask to keep a copy if the info on file since it’s a recurring expense for services rendered. 
 

 

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10 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Maybe the cleaners that retain a card number for security do it for just the reason you are experiencing. If you have a good business and good clients, you can surely ask to keep a copy if the info on file since it’s a recurring expense for services rendered. 
 

 

Of course that's why they do it. As I said, I am not interested. This doesn't happen very often and in any case, with over 700 clients and just me as the office admin, keeping track of current and expired credit card info would be a whole 'nother job. No thanks. One of the great things about QuickBooks is that the customer can pay his/her invoice with a credit card and I never have to see it, record it or chase them down when it is declined (which happens ALL the time.)

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29 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Oh, with over 700 clients, this one loss is a walk away. 

Absolutely not.  Quite the opposite, actually.  Need to send a message that freeloaders will be taken to task, which the OP is smartly doing.

OP: will this be heard in Marin County? There's some terrible judges over there.  After Neal Muller hit and damaged my Catalina 30 in his rowboat at Sam's, and refused to simply apologize, I sued him in Marin and got an unfavorable verdict (despite many witnesses and clear liability), BUT I was able to "cancel" the verdict on a technicality re: his service of the response to my Complaint (there are no appeals in Small Claims) and get a re-hearing which I won.  

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1 hour ago, fstbttms said:

Of course that's why they do it. As I said, I am not interested. This doesn't happen very often and in any case, with over 700 clients and just me as the office admin, keeping track of current and expired credit card info would be a whole 'nother job. No thanks. One of the great things about QuickBooks is that the customer can pay his/her invoice with a credit card and I never have to see it, record it or chase them down when it is declined (which happens ALL the time.)

A local diver/cleaner I know had a deadbeat client. Sailed his boat with a dirty bottom a lot...

Diver friend swam by one day and using his coarsest pad wiped F*** YOU on both sides of the dirty bottom. Was hilarious to see, and showed for a long time. Sweet revenge. Seriously, you are talking about a couple of bucks. Don't expect to recover it.

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1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

Absolutely not.  Quite the opposite, actually.  Need to send a message that freeloaders will be taken to task, which the OP is smartly doing.

OP: will this be heard in Marin County? There's some terrible judges over there.  After Neal Muller hit and damaged my Catalina 30 in his rowboat at Sam's, and refused to simply apologize, I sued him in Marin and got an unfavorable verdict (despite many witnesses and clear liability), BUT I was able to "cancel" the verdict on a technicality re: his service of the response to my Complaint (there are no appeals in Small Claims) and get a re-hearing which I won.  

Good lord.  You must be a lot of fun at parties!  

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It ain’t worth the time unless you changed out 4 anodes and scraped barnacles for 12 hours. 
Time costs money and to go trough all the effort to recoup a couple hundred dollars isn’t worth the effort. 

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JFC, he's decided he wants to make this right, respect that.  I've recovered close to $10,000 in the 4 small claims cases i've won, and have probably spent less than 30 total hours on those cases.  Its not great $ compared to my normal rate, but was still worth it for me, since I knew how to work the system to get the win(s).

OP: Do you have a written contract w/ the deadbeat?

PS: I see now you are in Alameda Co.  I've heard better things about the judges over there, but all trials are a roll of the dice... 

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

It ain’t worth the time unless you changed out 4 anodes and scraped barnacles for 12 hours. 
Time costs money and to go trough all the effort to recoup a couple hundred dollars isn’t worth the effort. 

It's more than a couple hundred dollars (lots more) and please, you don't know a thing about my business so don't fucking tell me what is worth my time or not.

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1 hour ago, [email protected] said:

 

OP: Do you have a written contract w/ the deadbeat?

 

Nothing beyond her text messages confirming the scope of work, frequency of service and when service would begin. Written contracts in the hull cleaning business are unusual and also a PITA. 

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1 hour ago, fstbttms said:

It's more than a couple hundred dollars (lots more) and please, you don't know a thing about my business so don't fucking tell me what is worth my time or not.

Thanks for snapping like the asshole you always are. You’re dumb enough to do work for people you don’t know and bitch about it when you get beat? Harden up and get the Google app so you don’t have to waste time insulting us looking for answers to your stupidity. 

99FC5450-68D9-4B43-BE2A-A3CC266EE8F1.jpeg

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30 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Thanks for snapping like the asshole you always are. You’re dumb enough to do work for people you don’t know and bitch about it when you get beat? Harden up and get the Google app so you don’t have to waste time insulting us looking for answers to your stupidity. 

99FC5450-68D9-4B43-BE2A-A3CC266EE8F1.jpeg

 What a fucking douchebag :lol:  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Ahhhhh you can almost smell the raindeer poop

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it Must be the ANARCHY KissMyAss Time of year

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you can sense the frustration setting in as they realize in about a week

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little to no hope of actually altering anyone's thoughts about Anything in any of these forums

Yet rejoicing in the fact that they Might have Up To 365 daz to wake up and try it again

before starting back @ square 1

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Urgent Message for Northwest Passage sailors

 

 

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Thanks for snapping like the asshole you always are. You’re dumb enough to do work for people you don’t know and bitch about it when you get beat? Harden up and get the Google app so you don’t have to waste time insulting us looking for answers to your stupidity. 

99FC5450-68D9-4B43-BE2A-A3CC266EE8F1.jpeg

Written contracts a PITA for hull cleaners? boo freakin’ hoo. If it’s too hard, Petal shouldn’t bitch & moan when he gets stung… Too lazy more like it…

“I find it hilarious” he thinks we don’t know his business. I think we understand what Einstein does for a living …. Wipe slime, scrape barnacles & change the odd anode…. Interesting work.

Hull cleaners are as important to the marine industry as a car wash place is to the auto industry.

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11 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

Written contracts a PITA for hull cleaners? boo freakin’ hoo. If it’s too hard, Petal shouldn’t bitch & moan when he gets stung… Too lazy more like it…

“I find it hilarious” he thinks we don’t know his business. I think we understand what Einstein does for a living …. Wipe slime, scrape barnacles & change the odd anode…. Interesting work.

Hull cleaners are as important to the marine industry as a car wash place is to the auto industry.

You just hit the stop on the asshole meter.  Where would you be without the word inheritance?

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11 minutes ago, charisma94 said:

 

Hull cleaners are as important to the marine industry as a car wash place is to the auto industry.

:lol: You win the prize for most ignorant post in the thread (so far.)

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I like old fastbtms. 

He's got a valid gripe and wants his money. I hope he gets it.

Me, I used to have this problem. My way was to use my time to put systems in place within my business so it didn't happen again. 

20 years later, someone calls. Sell the service. Send through T&Cs and Quote. Rtn Signature with cc details. Do the job. Hit the card. Send receipt. Job done. 

I still get some pricks who try it on... I smash em with paperwork, not texts, I'm batting 1000.

PITA for sure. But if your business grows like fbtms, you gotta adapt your systems to avoid this distraction.

I wiped a few hundo a few years ago to use the time to introduce systems, so it didn't happen again. And my business actually grew because of this approach, but it took a while. A client base like fbtms should be able to adapt over time.

That few hundred bucks, and my time concentrating on my business, for me, best money I ever spent.

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As a person who cleaned a lot of boat bottoms in the 80’s and 90’s, I’d say the job isn’t too tough with scuba equipment and a dive belt like you have. I free dove and never got beat. Money in hand or on the boat before I swim and the boat is ready to race.  Simple request by a young guy paying for college and beer.  Also, you mentioned that you only texted her prior to this,  nothing about a real conversation until you showed her the texts in person. Also, no mention of price in your texts from what I read. Scope of work, frequency, but where is the beef in the burger here? You covered her end but what are you supposed to be getting in return for the work? Did you ever let her know? Maybe she was unaware of how expensive it could get and possibly you didn’t text her after the first cleaning to invoice her so the second cleaning made her think you were trying to screw her around. 
 

I filed a claim once against a Marina for $13,000 they refused to pay as add ons they wanted on contract work. They paid up and half of it went to my attorney after a year of legal work. So, if it isn’t over a thousand dollars and you don’t have a signature, I again think you have to change the way you approach new customers at the very least.

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30 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

I free dove and never got beat. Money in hand or on the boat before I swim and the boat is ready to race.  

A breath-holder who has to get paid on the spot or the boat doesn't get cleaned? Bwahahahaha! Dude, I'm running a legitimate business here. I've got 700 clients, a team of five divers and sales of over $350K this year. Guys like you operate the way they do because buying drugs requires cash. :lol:

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Haw haw! It paid me well in college and people pay. You claiming to run a successful S Corp and not knowing how to avoid getting beat by a new “client” or upgrading how you run your business (having legitimate contractual agreements) is bwaaahhaaaa, as you like to blast.
 

You started out with a few clients and were paid cash immediately, just like the guys that now dive our club members’ boats. Your business has grown past that distant memory and your method of operating with no contracts and simpleminded approach to admiralty law is not understandable. I think the “administrative office” is lacking in motivation.

 

A little simplified math $350,000 gross 

5 divers @$70,000 each minus supplies,  equipment and transportation 
 

700 boats divided among 5 divers~ 140 boats per diver

$70,000\ 140= $500 per boat per year

 

Very simplified, however, a lot of money to handle properly to avoid losses as you have. 

 

Sounds like Mr Clean is right, you need a lawyer and a good accountant to safeguard your business.

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1 minute ago, Sail4beer said:

Haw haw! It paid me well in college and people pay. You claiming to run a successful S Corp and not knowing how to avoid getting beat by a new “client” or upgrading how you run your business (having legitimate contractual agreements) is bwaaahhaaaa, as you like to blast.
 

You started out with a few clients and were paid cash immediately, just like the guys that now dive our club members’ boats. Your business has grown past that distant memory and your method of operating with no contracts and simpleminded approach to admiralty law is not understandable. I think the “administrative office” is lacking in motivation.

 

A little simplified math $350,000 gross 

5 divers @$70,000 each minus supplies,  equipment and transportation 
 

700 boats divided among 5 divers~ 140 boats per diver

$70,000\ 140= $500 per boat per year

 

Very simplified, however, a lot of money to handle properly to avoid losses as you have. 

 

Sounds like Mr Clean is right, you need a lawyer and a good accountant to safeguard your business.

I get that your level of comprehension is quite low. I understand that. But try to grasp this- I've been in this business for over 27 years, have provided over 41,000 service events during that time and with all that, this is the FIRST TIME I've felt motivated to actually go ahead with filing a lien on a customer's boat. I don't need an attorney any more than I need advice from ignoramuses.

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Oh, I get it now. Your pissed that you got beat on a job. It has already eaten away at you so much that you had to vent on a forum to complete strangers. If you do go after her in court, whether you win or lose, it will not resolve your anger and she will have beaten you regardless. I suggest that you release the anger so that she can’t rob you of that part of you which has been hurt- and perhaps she would respond to a request for payment letter written by an attorney to avoid escalating the situation to a court appearance. It has worked for me in the past

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Oh great.  Now this thread has turned into a psychotherapy session.  

Snaggs Law:  When somebody  mentions thermodynamics in a thread they automatically lose the argument.

It will happen shortly, mark my words.

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1 minute ago, Blue Crab said:

I'll admit, FB has a bigger biz than imagined but my favorite part is the relabeling of bottom cleaning to "service events," and boat bottom cleaner to "hull diver." B) 

Whatever gets you thru the night.  

Dude, your old.  

Everybody talks that way nowadays.  Especially on the left coast.

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On 12/19/2021 at 5:47 PM, fstbttms said:

It's the same here. Leins follow the boat. Mechanic's liens are used all the time to good effect. I just have never done it. And it seems like all those telling me to walk away haven't either. I came here looking for somebody with experience in this particular situation, not uninformed  opinions.

 

I've used them.  Not in California though.  Easy peasy.  Does this person have a business?  They often register the boat to their business, and sending their business as the culprit to a collections company has excellent results, because it can cause a lot more grief for them.   Although you lose a huge chunk of the money to the collections people they have all the tools and experience to make it a headache and it costs you nothing you haven't already lost.

The bigger benefit of being assertive in this kind of shit situation is that word travels, whether that's word that you're easy to rip off or not to be fucked with.  If they've done it to you, they've done it to others.  In my case I started digging and found 3 others he'd ripped off, one to the tune of a brand new outboard and installation.   I put all the information I found about him into a file, walked them through filing a lien as well and then printed off the information packet.  Multiple victims makes it wayyyyy more likely nobody will touch their jobs without cash up front if they'll touch it at all.   I never made life miserable for people who couldn't pay due to circumstances like job loss etc, only for rip off artists.  

The people who want to rip you off will find an easier mark, the lien and sharing that information publicly does more to prevent the next asshole than anything for the current one, I did some digging when I suddenly had a few new prospective clients in a row who when I asked around the industry were known rip-off artists, and they had come to me because he'd been telling everyone how I was easy to get one over on.  Once I started to make his life more interesting, that story spread just as fast and no more scam artists.  

I got a lot of joy out of blackballing the fucker with everybody around.  Last I heard he now has to run the boat about 6 hours each way to get someone to work on it, with twin diesels I suspect it costs him a lot.  Many more smiles per dollar spent(everybody got a 6 pack of beer along with the copy of what I'd uncovered while I told them about him).  Petty?  Absolutely.  Worth it, you bet.   Nearly as good as the time the super sketchy hooker he had on his boat was looking for him to settle up his tab.  Turns out I accidentally gave her his landline number instead of cell and she got his wife.  Oops.  :ph34r:I also provide his number to any spam callers I get.   

If a demand letter won't shift them, a lien won't either.   I pay I think around 20$ every so often to renew the lien, and I made a point of sharing it with brokers when he was trying to sell it a few years ago, and just knowing there's a lien involved results in them rejecting his boat, so now all he's got left is craigslist.  

Moving forward, get a signed agreement.  It can be a generic one that you send via docusign.  After him I implemented that.  

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5 minutes ago, Startracker said:

If they've done it to you, they've done it to others.  

As a matter of fact, she also hired one of my subs to do the exact same job at pretty much the exact same time. He has yet to be paid as well. It's weird and fucked up.

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1 hour ago, fstbttms said:

As a matter of fact, she also hired one of my subs to do the exact same job at pretty much the exact same time. He has yet to be paid as well. It's weird and fucked up.

And worse they will keep going.  The people who play this kind of game, play it all the time, and worse they often have similar friends, the second of the bunch that arrived shortly after he got one over on me turned out to have a business in the same city in another province.   The second guy showed up and threatened to assault me after I registered the debt against his company, then did pay, I gathered it would somehow impact his purchasing in some way.  It worked because I knew he'd bought the boat in his company name, and was using that to also dodge paying sales tax, here companies don't pay one of the sales taxes on goods or services that are to be resold(7%), plus all the write offs.  

In order of making their life miserable I would go with:

1.  Register the debt via mechanics lien.  I do this no matter what the situation is, you have a short window of time after the job is done to register it, obscurely I believe it has something to do with farriers and horses being returned to a farmer.  I leave it at that and don't pursue it for people who are having a hard time, say I know someone lost a job or has a family issue, I'll often write down the value to covering just my cost and take payments over time when they get back on their feet.  Registering the debt as a lien gives you a paper trail when you want to write off the bad debt for taxes.

2.  Make their life as miserable as possible by notifying other trades and shaming them.  Keep an eye on the boat, see another trade there?  Go have a chat.  See the boat's been polished or got new toys?  Call around your best guess on who would have done it.  Talk to other trades, not just in your pool.  Phone around or email local canvas guys, electricians, mechanics, detailers, you're not the only person to work on the boat, and other trades are often very risk averse, and if they haven't been screwed they might know other people who have.   A documented rip off artist is a very different kettle of fish.

See a broker list it? Send them a copy of the lien, and to the marina office as well.  Bonus points if you send it registered mail, marinas and brokers don't like hassle and registered letters with liens in them look like hassle and raise the concern that they might also get screwed. 

3.  Sell the debt to a debt collector and forget about it.  You lose a lot of the money, but some is better than none, and debt collectors are in the business of making people miserable, your time is better spent getting new good money than chasing old bad money. 

 

The first guy to try it with me was a special case, and pissed me off because I knew he was sitting on millions of dollars while I was eating ramen and selling off belongings to cover the shortfall, cancelled christmas etc.  He played me for a sweetheart deal in the first place by pretending we were friends.  It was not a business decision to actively make him miserable, it was personal.  I certainly put a dent in his marriage by treating the hooker who was after him as a tradesperson who hadn't been paid and providing his landline when I knew he was away.  I had good clients in the same industry as him, and I dragged him through the mud with them as well.   One trade being pissed at a client?  Nobody really cares.  Find a few more people she's burnt and nobody will touch her boat.  

 

Docusign is dirt cheap, and they can sign on their phone or computer and it's still legally binding.  A generic contract for service will cover you.  Whenever anyone complained about the change, I told them I was sorry about it and that I knew they were good but given that <fuckfaces name> burned me, my business lawyer had told me that I had to get everyone to sign on the dotted line, no exceptions.  

 

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21 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Oh, I get it now. Your pissed that you got beat on a job. It has already eaten away at you so much that you had to vent on a forum to complete strangers. If you do go after her in court, whether you win or lose, it will not resolve your anger and she will have beaten you regardless. I suggest that you release the anger so that she can’t rob you of that part of you which has been hurt- and perhaps she would respond to a request for payment letter written by an attorney to avoid escalating the situation to a court appearance. It has worked for me in the past

 

Often a letter from an Attorney will make an impact, but this person sounds like a professional deadbeat, so I would not spend money on it.  I am sure you have a friendly Attorney whose boat you regularly service?   He might be will to write a letter for you, as a courtesy, pro bono.   If so, buy him a bottle of wine, or spirits of his choice.  

I recently had a Tenant move out and I totally spaced out forgot to return their Security Deposit of $875.00.  3 months later Attorneys letter arrives with a summons to small claims Court and demand for 2 months rent Securitiy Deposit return, plus Legal Costs, of around two grand or more.  Or go to court.   I called the Attorney and apologized for my lack, and promising a check for $875.00 tomorrow.   I told him they usually call me and remind me when this happens.  He explained the CT state law says Landlord must pay 2 months worth, if not returned in 30 days, and if I send $1,900.00 he will drop the court claim and forgive the legal costs.  Likely a friend of the Tenants, who did not charge them to file, but for the paper cost of filing with the court. 

So a lawyers letter with a  hollow threat to litigate might have some results with this deadbeat boat owner, good luck!!

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On 12/23/2021 at 8:03 PM, fstbttms said:

Nothing beyond her text messages confirming the scope of work, frequency of service and when service would begin. Written contracts in the hull cleaning business are unusual and also a PITA. 

Lets get you sorted out with a standard contract that you can use with all clients that will include an attorneys fee shifting provision (ie the deadbeats will pay your attorneys fees and the other damages!)

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14 minutes ago, [email protected] said:

Lets get you sorted out with a standard contract that you can use with all clients that will include an attorneys fee shifting provision (ie the deadbeats will pay your attorneys fees and the other damages!)

Again, honest-to-God written contracts are rare in this business. New customers will frequently need service on short notice, making written and signed forms problematic. Further, a typical invoice is between $100-$200 and non-payment is a relatively infrequent issue. So while this particular situation involves an amount that is considerably more than the typical invoice, I do not feel the need to implement a different system than I use now.

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Since you must carry insurance and unless all of your divers are subcontractors and take some considerable risk in your line of work, it would be completely understandable to start off new clients with some form of signed contract and a deposit of at least the standard price for cleaning-not an abused hull restoration- and that way you will be protecting yourself from a future new worst client.  Don’t bother with your existing, satisfied customers since  they are solid payers.

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15 minutes ago, Sail4beer said:

Since you must carry insurance and unless all of your divers are subcontractors and take some considerable risk in your line of work, it would be completely understandable to start off new clients with some form of signed contract and a deposit of at least the standard price for cleaning-not an abused hull restoration- and that way you will be protecting yourself from a future new worst client.  Don’t bother with your existing, satisfied customers since  they are solid payers.

First reasonable thing you've contributed to this thread.

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4 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Lol wut? weird flex bro

Who the hell are you to tell a man that he shouldnt be paid for his labor? Typical  canucker  Libatard wanker.

no weight that would be, shouldn't have to labor just to be paid

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On 12/25/2021 at 3:30 PM, fstbttms said:

Again, honest-to-God written contracts are rare in this business. New customers will frequently need service on short notice, making written and signed forms problematic. Further, a typical invoice is between $100-$200 and non-payment is a relatively infrequent issue. So while this particular situation involves an amount that is considerably more than the typical invoice, I do not feel the need to implement a different system than I use now.

Traditionally this is true, no doubt.  However, with the widespread usage of smart phones, i think you should re-think your approach.  even my 80 year old parents have and can use their smart phones, so you could easily do an online form w/ contractual terms that you provide the client via text-message.  They could pay right there on that same site as well.  easy peasy.

A couple hours effort to set this up and you wont really ever have to mess w/ it.  Seems worth it given your volume of business!

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