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1st Amendment Question for the Elks


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Hello all you elk of both sides. 

Imagine a president uses his AG and the DOJ to lock up somebody who wrote a book critical of the administration. Who here thinks that kind of thing should be allowed?

Okay fine, it's not *actually* both sides that I'm asking, because we all know that one side is for sure going to disagree with the scenario. So from the other side, what say you @The Joker @chum @Saorsa @warbird??

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Alright fine. I'll tell the story. I heard it on the radio, so I don't have a cite right now.

Apparently Bill Clinton was furious when he heard about Richard Posner's book about the Clinton impeachment. Some years later, when Hillary was in the middle of Benghazi testimony, Bill heard a rumour that Posner was going to write an expose on Hillary and the events of Benghazi. According to a source, Bill called him up and threatened to get him put in jail if he released the book.  Posner has stated publicly that he was never planning to write a book about Hillary, but one never really knows if that's true or if he caved to threats.

image.png.ae8240d9b1619433f5251542a8cdc456.png

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23 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Alright fine. I'll tell the story. I heard it on the radio, so I don't have a cite right now.

Apparently Bill Clinton was furious when he heard about Richard Posner's book about the Clinton impeachment. Some years later, when Hillary was in the middle of Benghazi testimony, Bill heard a rumour that Posner was going to write an expose on Hillary and the events of Benghazi. According to a source, Bill called him up and threatened to get him put in jail if he released the book.  Posner has stated publicly that he was never planning to write a book about Hillary, but one never really knows if that's true or if he caved to threats.

image.png.ae8240d9b1619433f5251542a8cdc456.png

Which radio station....asking for a friend

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5 hours ago, quod umbra said:

And???
Are we still looking in the rearview mirror because the current administration is completely melted down at this point?

so what have we here, now this is conspicuous; 'melted down'... how, in what sense? you're a bullshiitter and a fat, pontificating, typing turd.

 

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5 hours ago, quod umbra said:

So wait a second, a former President was gonna "uses his AG and the DOJ to lock up somebody who wrote a book critical of the administration."
Who the fuk cares about The Clintons?
Although some think Hiliary is contemplating 'making her self available' in the event Joe Biden can't go......

And frankly I thought this was about..... crap whose book was it, about Trump.....maybe O'Reilly(?) who wrote a book and Trump wanted it redacted over "security concerns"......

But again, I would prefer we keep an eye on the road because right now The US is in a bad place with a really crap president.

It's quite funny that Mr. "I'm not a Righty" and Mr. "I'm a libertarian who doesn't support Trump" immediately jumped to this being ABOUT Trump and then jumped to his defense.

Funny in a "no on is surprised in the least" kinda way, I guess.

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1 minute ago, Venom said:

Assange 

Julian Assange posts here?  I had no idea we had that level of sway.  Or is this just more blithering from a half lobotomized brain suffering from severe oxygen deprivation and methane poisoning?

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5 hours ago, quod umbra said:

And???
Are we still looking in the rearview mirror because the current administration is completely melted down at this point?

The current admin is "completely melted down"???  I had not heard that.  Can you catch me up please.

 

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Okay folks. I told a fib. That whole story about Clinton and Posner was a fabrication.

What *actually* happened:

Trump put Cohen in jail because Cohen wrote an expose. He didn't threaten to put him in jail, he actually had him incarcerated.

https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-crime-lawsuits-donald-trump-trump-investigations-c69ea741b5c1bfbadef45203071ae423

Just to clarify, the President (at that time) used the DOJ as a weapon to lock up his enemy.

Who here thinks that is okay?

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3 hours ago, Nice! said:

Okay folks. I told a fib. That whole story about Clinton and Posner was a fabrication.

What *actually* happened:

Trump put Cohen in jail because Cohen wrote an expose. He didn't threaten to put him in jail, he actually had him incarcerated.

https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-crime-lawsuits-donald-trump-trump-investigations-c69ea741b5c1bfbadef45203071ae423

Just to clarify, the President (at that time) used the DOJ as a weapon to lock up his enemy.

Who here thinks that is okay?

Books came perilously close to being the kind of "electioneering communications" that can be regulated.

Donald Eres Un Pendejo

14776745771246.jpg.webp

 

Can you really put that on a t-shirt during an election using your company's money?

 

Quote

 

...

The issue was brought up in a memorable exchange with the Department of Justice's Deputy Solicitor General Malcolm Stewart during initial oral arguments before the Supreme Court. Justice David Souter asked whether there was any limiting principle that would exclude even books from being censored by the Federal Election Commission. If a labor union, for example, wanted to use its treasury funds to hire an author to write a book that explicitly argued for or against a candidate, could the government take action against it? "I think it would be constitutional to forbid the labor union to do that," Stewart conceded.

The complexity of the case prompted an unusual second round of oral arguments in which Elena Kagan, then solicitor general, stepped in to argue the government's case. Asked by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg if it was still the government's position that the FEC's powers could extend to books, she reversed positions. "The government's answer has changed," she said to laughter in the Court. But pamphlets, which Kagan called "pretty classic electioneering," certainly could be covered.

Of relevance to Ilegal's posters insulting Donald Trump, the initial oral arguments made it clear that signs paid for by corporations could be banned as well. "I suppose a sign held up in Lafayette Park saying vote for so and so. Under your theory of the Constitution, the prohibition of that would be constitutional?" asked Chief Justice John Roberts. "[If] by prohibition you mean ban on the use of corporate treasury funds, then, yes, I think it's absolutely clear," answered Stewart.

Had the government's theories prevailed in Citizens United, there would be no constitutional barriers preventing Congress from banning speech exactly like Ilegal's poster campaign. "Let's be really clear: It is publicity and I did use company money for this," Rexer told Vice last year. The government would argue that such speech was protected only by the discretion of Congress and the FEC to focus on radio and TV. But if they wanted to go further? Under the federal government's theory in Citizens United, the First Amendment wouldn't stand in their way.

...

Ilegal's example cuts against the view that corporations don't have First Amendment rights and that money is not speech. If you believe that those oversimplified slogans are true, it's hard to argue that Congress couldn't choose to limit the kind of activity Ilegal is engaged in.

On the other hand, if you believe that Ilegal's campaign is exactly the kind of speech the First Amendment was designed to protect, that it represents a sincere expression of belief by the owner and employees of Ilegal Mezcal, and that restricting their speech would violate their rights, you might have more in common with the conservative wing of the Supreme Court than you realize.

...

 

 

 

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On 12/19/2021 at 1:36 PM, Nice! said:

Apparently Bill Clinton was furious when he heard about Richard Posner's book about the Clinton impeachment. Some years later, when Hillary was in the middle of Benghazi testimony, Bill heard a rumour that Posner was going to write an expose on Hillary and the events of Benghazi. According to a source, Bill called him up and threatened to get him put in jail if he released the book.  Posner has stated publicly that he was never planning to write a book about Hillary, but one never really knows if that's true or if he caved to threats.

 

Bill probably was going to have his close friend Jeff to get Posner barred from future trips to the island and be forever cut off from underage pussy.  

Just saying.

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On 12/19/2021 at 8:37 PM, 3to1 said:

so what have we here, now this is conspicuous; 'melted down'... how, in what sense? you're a bullshiitter and a fat, pontificating, typing turd.

 

The mold in his bathroom has infected his brain.

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

You really can't go a day with out referring to the right as the riech, can you.
And then in the next breath you claim it is the other side which refuses to be civil.

When you endeavor to destroy the constitutional order, along with our (admittedly flawed) democratic norms . . 

You richly deserve the misspelled title of Riech. 

Would you prefer to be called a "Neofascist"??? 

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16 minutes ago, quod umbra said:

The simple fact you demand civility,

As Harry Truman might suggest at a moment like this, "Those people think I am being uncivil when I tell the truth about them." 

I note that you do not deny supporting the violent destruction of the constitutional order. 

And furthermore, before you go on complaining about my straight talk, watch this . . 

https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/fmr-top-general-warns-of-potential-2024-insurrection-urges-preparedness-129231941834

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1 hour ago, quod umbra said:

If you do not understand that The Biden Presidency has been an absolute abject failure, I really feel bad for you.

And I am NOT fat......

You’re right. Passing bills which stimulated the economy in the middle of a pandemic, reducing unemployment to levels not since the late 60s, advancing infrastructure bills, restoring good relations with allies left abandoned by the former administration, extricating ourselves from a futile and self destructive 20 year war, ramping up an enormously successful vaccination program and fighting for democracy in the courts & DOJ while restoring truth to official statements has done NOTHING for the Republican agenda of amassing power for Donald Trump.

Ever since Donald Trump’s whims  became the stated platform of the GOP, along with lesser goals restricting a woman’s right to make healthcare decisions and increasing the profits of arms manufacturers and distributors, Republicans have set the needs of Americans a far distant second.

Improving the lives of citizens, helping citizens live longer and healthier lives are not the goals of the GOP, otherwise they would make that part of their party platform.

@quod umbrais correct. By Republican criteria, Biden’s efforts have been an “absolute abject failure.”

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3 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

@quod umbrais correct. By Republican criteria, Biden’s efforts have been an “absolute abject failure.”

Monumentally stupid comment by QU - pretty clear that he prefers neo-fascists to be in charge

And Biden also should get some credit for substantially reducing child poverty. 

But he has also made mistakes - Ukraine is likely one.  

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On 12/19/2021 at 4:36 PM, Nice! said:

According to a source, Bill called him up and threatened to get him put in jail if he released the book.

This is America!  No way anyone in power would ever abuse it, especially our public servants!  They work tirelessly for the benefit of all Americans!

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:
4 hours ago, quod umbra said:

If you do not understand that The Biden Presidency has been an absolute abject failure, I really feel bad for you.

And I am NOT fat......

You’re right. Passing bills which stimulated the economy in the middle of a pandemic, reducing unemployment to levels not since the late 60s, advancing infrastructure bills, restoring good relations with allies left abandoned by the former administration, extricating ourselves from a futile and self destructive 20 year war, ramping up an enormously successful vaccination program and fighting for democracy in the courts & DOJ while restoring truth to official statements has done NOTHING for the Republican agenda of amassing power for Donald Trump.

Ever since Donald Trump’s whims  became the stated platform of the GOP, along with lesser goals restricting a woman’s right to make healthcare decisions and increasing the profits of arms manufacturers and distributors, Republicans have set the needs of Americans a far distant second.

Improving the lives of citizens, helping citizens live longer and healthier lives are not the goals of the GOP, otherwise they would make that part of their party platform.

@quod umbrais correct. By Republican criteria, Biden’s efforts have been an “absolute abject failure.”

TL/DNR

All you need to say is DEMOCRAT=BAD!! and you'll nail 99% of the QU demographic/elk

- DSK

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2 hours ago, phillysailor said:

 restoring good relations with allies left abandoned by the former administration, extricating ourselves from a futile and self destructive 20 year war,

 

Actually, this has hurt us with our allies and has emboldened our antagonist. 

I do Biden credit for getting out of Afghanistan, we should have never been there in the first place, but Obama had 8 years to get us out, what did he do again...  escalated you say?

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Ventucky Red said:

Actually, this has hurt us with our allies and has emboldened our antagonist.

So if these unspecified "allies" want us to continue the senseless slaughter and bleed the troops and waste more trillions . .  

we're supposed to keep doing it ?? 

Just who are those putative "allies"?   

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On 12/19/2021 at 1:50 PM, quod umbra said:

But again, I would prefer we keep an eye on the road because right now The US is in a bad place with a really crap president.

Yeah, you need TFG back to sort things out and MAGA.

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58 minutes ago, Ventucky Red said:

Actually, this has hurt us with our allies and has emboldened our antagonist. 

I do Biden credit for getting out of Afghanistan, we should have never been there in the first place, but Obama had 8 years to get us out, what did he do again...  escalated you say?

No mention of GW who started it, or DT who promised to get out and didn't, but sabotaged the process on his way out the door?

But sure, go ahead and blame Bama.

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On 12/19/2021 at 12:10 PM, Nice! said:

Hello all you elk of both sides. 

Imagine a president uses his AG and the DOJ to lock up somebody who wrote a book critical of the administration. Who here thinks that kind of thing should be allowed?

Okay fine, it's not *actually* both sides that I'm asking, because we all know that one side is for sure going to disagree with the scenario. So from the other side, what say you @The Joker @chum @Saorsa @warbird??

Imagine an outgoing president and a presidential candidate using the FBI and the DOJ to attempt to lock up a sitting president. Who here thinks that kind of thing should be allowed? 

Oh, wait that already happened. 

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29 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Imagine an outgoing president and a presidential candidate using the FBI and the DOJ to attempt to lock up a sitting president. Who here thinks that kind of thing should be allowed? 

Oh, wait that already happened. 

Nice false equivalence. Your logical fallacies are really on point these days.

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51 minutes ago, Nice! said:
1 hour ago, Ventucky Red said:

Actually, this has hurt us with our allies and has emboldened our antagonist. 

I do Biden credit for getting out of Afghanistan, we should have never been there in the first place, but Obama had 8 years to get us out, what did he do again...  escalated you say?

No mention of GW who started it, or DT who promised to get out and didn't, but sabotaged the process on his way out the door?

But sure, go ahead and blame Bama.

The new "but her emails" is now "but Obama". 

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23 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

You toss up a "what if" scenario as though it actually happened and then scream "false equivalence"? 

You're a joke. 

Has Biden led crowds to lock anyone up?  TFG did. That is a false equivalence.  Hope this helps.  Below is some information to clarify this confusion

What makes an equivalence false

An equivalence is considered false when it’s fallacious in some way, meaning that there is an issue with the reasoning that’s used to explain why the things under consideration are equivalent to one another. The most common issues that make an equivalence false are the following:

  • The equivalence exaggerates the degree of similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve stating that two people share a certain personality trait, while ignoring the fact that they only share certain aspects of this trait but not others.
  • The equivalence exaggerates the importance of the similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve focusing on a personality trait that two people share, while ignoring the fact that many other people also share this trait.
  • The equivalence ignores important differences between the things being equated. For example, this could involve mentioning a way in which two people are similar to one another, while ignoring the many ways in which they are different.
  • The equivalence ignores differences in orders of magnitude between the things being equated. For example, this could involve equating different acts that two people performed, and focusing on the fact that these acts are conceptually similar, despite the fact that they’re widely different in terms of their impact.
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27 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

You toss up a "what if" scenario as though it actually happened and then scream "false equivalence"? 

You're a joke. 

It actually happened. TFG and Bill Barr had Cohen incarcerated - including solitary confinement - simply as payback after Cohen released his book.

It. Actually. Happened.

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5 minutes ago, Nice! said:

It actually happened. TFG and Bill Barr had Cohen incarcerated - including solitary confinement - simply as payback after Cohen released his book.

It. Actually. Happened.

Do you have any data to support Cohen's book was the reason for his incarceration? 

From what I understand that's what Cohen claims but there is no actual evidence... Cohen is also a known bullshitter and Tax Fraud soooo... 

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15 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Has Biden led crowds to lock anyone up?  TFG did. That is a false equivalence.  Hope this helps.  Below is some information to clarify this confusion

What makes an equivalence false

An equivalence is considered false when it’s fallacious in some way, meaning that there is an issue with the reasoning that’s used to explain why the things under consideration are equivalent to one another. The most common issues that make an equivalence false are the following:

  • The equivalence exaggerates the degree of similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve stating that two people share a certain personality trait, while ignoring the fact that they only share certain aspects of this trait but not others.
  • The equivalence exaggerates the importance of the similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve focusing on a personality trait that two people share, while ignoring the fact that many other people also share this trait.
  • The equivalence ignores important differences between the things being equated. For example, this could involve mentioning a way in which two people are similar to one another, while ignoring the many ways in which they are different.
  • The equivalence ignores differences in orders of magnitude between the things being equated. For example, this could involve equating different acts that two people performed, and focusing on the fact that these acts are conceptually similar, despite the fact that they’re widely different in terms of their impact.

Who the fuck is talking about Biden?

The equivalence exaggerates the degree of similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve stating that two people share a certain personality trait, while ignoring the fact that they only share certain aspects of this trait but not others.

 

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4 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Do you have any data to support Cohen's book was the reason for his incarceration? 

From what I understand that's what Cohen claims but there is no actual evidence... Cohen is also a known bullshitter and Tax Fraud soooo... 

A judge on Thursday ordered the release of President Donald Trump’s former personal lawyer from prison, saying the government retaliated against him for planning to release a book critical of Trump before November’s election.

https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-u-s-news-ap-top-news-michael-cohen-prisons-a9ef5ee158ef0f118de144e96e170885

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7 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Who the fuck is talking about Biden?

The equivalence exaggerates the degree of similarity between the things being equated. For example, this could involve stating that two people share a certain personality trait, while ignoring the fact that they only share certain aspects of this trait but not others.

 

I can lead you to info, I can't make you think.  You know like your post way back an hour ago.

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3 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

I can lead you to info, I can't make you think.  You know like your post way back an hour ago.

Please humor me, Where did I specifically mention Biden an hour ago? 

Oh yeah, I didn't. 

You fucks sure know how to imagine things people said... Some would say Delusional.... 

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5 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

Please humor me, Where did I specifically mention Biden an hour ago? 

Oh yeah, I didn't. 

You fucks sure know how to imagine things people said... Some would say Delusional.... 

So In skimming this thread I missed that and knee jerked to your kneejerks. better now?

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4 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Imagine an outgoing president and a presidential candidate using the FBI and the DOJ to attempt to lock up a sitting president. Who here thinks that kind of thing should be allowed? 

Oh, wait that already happened. 

When?

Can you prove it without the Durham Report, which I'm sure is going to be released any day now.

Details recorded on Hunter Biden's Laptop? In a pizza parlor basement?

- DSK

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11 hours ago, Movable Ballast said:

Please humor me, Where did I specifically mention Biden an hour ago? 

Oh yeah, I didn't. 

You fucks sure know how to imagine things people said... Some would say Delusional.... 

You mean delusional like when you claimed it was a false equivalency because it's a what-if scenario (not that that logic makes any sense, but whatever) when in fact it wasn't hypothetical at all because it actually happened? That kind of delusional?

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